Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP423 Wedge Issues Live @ The BMW PGA Championship
Wedge Issues is Unofficial Partner's business of golf series, where we take some of the big trends from across sport and apply them to golf.
This is a special live episode recorded in the boardroom of the DP World Tour's headquarters at The Wentworth Club on the Friday morning of the BMW PGA Championship, the Tour's flagship event. Around the table were people representing many of the golf industry's key stakeholders from across various parts of the game, including sponsors, media, agencies and governing bodies. As you'll hear, the conversation was a broad one, looking at the commercial value and product-market fit of golf, the changing nature of media consumption, the rise of the golf YouTube creator, the lessons of the LIV Golf disruption and what the game really looks and feels like to women.
You'll hear from speakers including:
Jasmine, The Jazzy Golfer
Hans Christian Meyer, CEO of JLindeberg
Chris Bovey of 160/90
Max Hamilton, Executive Commercial Director, European Tour Group
Other contributors include:
Mark Cornish, KORE Software
Neil Armit, The R&A
Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf
Merrick Haydon, rEvolution agency
A big thank you goes to Guy Kinnings, Richard Bunn, James Francis and the team at the DP World Tour and to our friends at KORE Software for their support in making the event happen.
This episode is sponsored by Leaders in Sport
Leaders in Sport connects the most influential people and the most powerful ideas in global sport to catalyse discussion, and drive the industry forward. Through a series of global summits in North America, Europe, Asia and the Middle East, invitation-only memberships and long form content, Leaders in Sport provides professional executives, both on and off the field, with access to a community of peers to share best practice and trends that are shaping the future of sport. Their flagship event, Leaders Week London, returns from 14 to 17 October, with The Summit taking place at Twickenham Stadium hosting the most senior executives from over 40 countries, including over 100 brands. We'll be there, and you should join us. Visit leadersinsport.com/UP for more information and use UP15 for a 15% discount on your Summit passes.
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Hello, my name is Richard Gillis and welcome to wedge issues. Unofficial partners, business of golf series, where we take some of the big trends from across sport and apply them to golf. This is a special live episode recorded in the boardroom of the DP world tours headquarters at the Wentworth club on Friday morning and the BMW PGA championship last week. For tours, flagship event. Around the table with me, where people representing many of the Gulf industries, key stakeholders from across various parts of the game, including sponsors, media agencies and governing bodies. And as you're here, the conversation was abroad one. We looked at the commercial value and the product market fit of Gulf. The changing nature of media consumption the rise of the Gulf, YouTube creator, the lessons of the live Gulf disruption and what women really think about the culture of the game and what it feels and looks like to them. You'll hear from speakers, including Jasmine, the jazzy golfer, Hans Christian Mayer, CEO of J Lindeberg, Chris Bovie of 180 over 90 IMGs marketing agency. Max Hamilton. Executive commercial director of European tour group and other contributors include mark Cornish from core software near alarm it from the RNA Ben sharp, Callaway golf and Merrick Hayden revolution agency. And a big, thank you. Goes to guy Kinnings Richard bum, James Francis, and the team at the DP world tour and to our friends at core software for their support. In making the event happen. This episode of Unofficial Partner is sponsored by our friends at leaders in sport. Leaders in sport connects the most influential people in the most powerful ideas in global sport to catalyze discussion and drive the industry forward. Through a series of global summits in north America, Europe, Asia, and the middle east invitation, only memberships and long form content leaders in sport provides professional executives, both on and off the field with access to a community of peers to share best practice. And trends that are shaping the future of sport. Their flagship event leaders week London returns from the 14th to the 17th of October. With the summit taking place at Twickenham hosting. The most senior executives from over 40 countries, including over 100 brands. We'll be there. Of course. And you should join us. Visit leaders in sport.com Ford stroke. Up for more information and use up 15 for a 15% discount. On your summit passes.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:First of all, thank you very much for coming. Max, let's start with you. What does this week mean for you guys? The listeners, I'll brief them ahead of time that we are at Wentworth on the Friday of the, uh, BMW PGA, but what is it from
Max Hamilton, European Tour:the
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:tour's perspective?
Max Hamilton, European Tour:Well, I'll, I'll try and paint a picture of it if you like both in terms of the Vista that is the BMW PJ championship and, and maybe the week that it is. So if I start with it's, it's our festival of golf. That's what, that's what we call it. And as you wait, you wake your way in here, you get a sense of that with the, the village and all of our partners activating in the village. It's very much you see a concert in the middle of the village. When we're having concerts here the next couple of nights, and just the general, feel of it. It goes beyond golf and I think that's the direction of travel for us. We're we're very happy with, uh, you know, BMW are our partner here for 20 years and I say that because every year it's a little different and they improve it and keep improving it with us and that's fantastic. So they make an amazing they activate in an incredibly high standard. And they lift the level of everybody's activation. And so it has a place in, I think it has a place sort of the end of the British summertime, actually. We moved it to September from May, they all kind of thought, Oh, this is dangerous because the weather is going to When, when
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:did that happen?
Max Hamilton, European Tour:So that was, I think about five years ago.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I remember because I grew up in London and it was the one event that we all ever went to you know Yeah, it was and so there was a sort of end of May bank holiday. It used to
Max Hamilton, European Tour:be. Yeah, so we wondered about that But we've been very lucky so far with the weather etc But also what's happened is it is is round so it's sold out Today it's sold out of the weekend and I think part of that is because the, uh, the week that's in it, it has a reputation now it starts with the pro am really on the Wednesday and that brings a crowd who may not normally just go to a golf event, if we're honest but it's 20 to 25, 000 people, it's got all kinds of celebrities playing in it, you may have seen we had Tom Holland here, we had footballers here, cricketers here, We've had actors here, we've had influencers here, we've had all sorts of people who are then bringing their audience to it. And it's a younger and more diverse audience than you'd associate with a golf event, really. And I guess the concert brings that element to it too. So, really important week, our European flagship event, and a really interesting time in the schedule for us as we look at the last part of our season all gearing up in the race to Dubai, to the Middle East in November. So, we have players back from the US, we've got our big European players here this week, all, you know, somewhere near the top of the leaderboard, thankfully. We've got Rory's, who is, you know, club is flying up in the air. We've got Tommy, who, uh, who I saw, uh, was trying to get down to the unit, the 18th hospitality unit earlier, and he could barely get down there because of the crowds following Tommy Fleetwood. So you've got all of that going on and I don't know, for us as a team working at it, I often kind of liken it to slightly being at your own wedding where you're, you know, in a good and bad way. You didn't come to my wedding. There's nothing like this. But you're trying to move between lots of different friends and colleagues and partners and prospects and the whole industry. which is makes it really lively. And I think why I see Neil nodding down there, you know, that's like, it's, that's why I love this business. It's weeks like this.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah. Yeah. I'm both nostalgic for it because I've been coming a long time and it was a, um, It's a moment in the season. And then when I come here, I think, okay, it's different. So there is something happening. Festival of Golf is quite nice.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:It's different to what you remember it being from years ago. Yeah,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:but that might be just nostalgia and memory playing tricks, but it's also, there is something, it feels, I don't know whether it's more premium. Whether I would have thought that in the past, but, uh, if, you know, there's a, there's a sort of sense around the place that, yeah, there's something going on. There's a, buzz about it. I agree with you about the, the pro am. So the Wednesday, my, I say this a lot, you know, stupid for a man of my age, but I'm obsessed with TikTok. Absolutely. Can't, can't stop. You know, and it's not good for me. It's not good for my game of golf. I'm getting, you know, 20 tips every, you know, five minutes, you know, But the pro am is popping, really. And it feels like it's got an identity of its own, almost. It's growing an idea. I wonder if that's because we always had one. Yes. But now it feels like there's something else happening there.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:Yeah, there is. You're right. There is. I think we probably, if we're honest, we looked at it before and we used to have, we always had famous names in the pro am here. That was, that was a thing we did, but I think we, we, we finally realized, hang on a sec, if they're coming, then we should make this work for us and them. We should really use it as a platform to drive new audiences. We should, we should ask them to start posting things rather than hoping they would, you know, and I think that and bringing our partners in, like, you know, we've got, we've got Hans Christian here from Jay Lindenberg. They're bringing people here who are broadening our audience this week. And I think that's That's part of it, you know, it's got to be part of it. And look, we can talk about sort of the momentum behind golf, etc. But one of the clear things we're seeing is, and I think the RNA studies would show you, that the age, the average age level is dropping. There's more women playing the game, we know that as well, which is fantastic. And you see that interest now when you come here, particularly on the Wednesday. So it's a different
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:crowd on Wednesday, is
Max Hamilton, European Tour:it? It's a different crowd on Wednesday, but then we're also looking at, you know, we've got the gigs happening, uh, over the weekend and there's also a crowd that are coming for that. But they're watching golf as well. And they're, you know, then they're here for the evening.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah. Yeah. Jazz, I'm going to bring you into that. What's your take on the whole thing? What's it look like from where you are?
The Jazzy Golfer:I played in the Pro Am yesterday, not yesterday on Wednesday and it was, it was incredible. As an amateur golfer, I can't explain what a strange feeling it is. To play in front of an audience and also, you know, when you do a good shot, you know, to have like hundreds and hundreds of people clap, it's like, Oh, thanks. Thanks very
Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf:much.
The Jazzy Golfer:But, but equally when you do a bad shot, you do hear the like, Ooh, you know, en masse. I mean, I, I love these kinds of events. Because as Max was saying, like they bring such a unique audience and it's very different people, as he says, for very different things. I also think that Pro Am is so important in showing, especially the younger generation, that their favorite footballers, their favorite cricketers, their favorite influencers, celebrities all play golf. And I think that changes the perception of the game and, and makes it seem, you know, better. Pretty, pretty cool. And I think also, you know, personally, I feel a responsibility when I'm out there to represent the women and be like, Hey, we're here and we play golf too. So I think, you know, in particular that pro am is, is really important significant and pretty hard hitting.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah. Can you just give us a bit of the backstory of the, cause the Jazzy Golfer as a brand. And it is a brand and you've made a, you know, it's, you've got this position. I'm really interested in that world and I think we're going to talk about that quite a bit in terms of just the way in which the game is being presented, the way media is doing it. You know, changing our consumption habits. just give us a quick up update in terms of where it where it started and where where it is now
The Jazzy Golfer:So I had a really random entry into the golfing sphere. I used to work in finance at one of the big four I was a financial services consultant and that was my area of expertise I picked golf up on a family holiday in portugal and I hit one amazing pitching wedge that went right next to the pin and that was it. I was totally hooked many many Many
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:worms
The Jazzy Golfer:were killed, you know, I hit some real bad shots and some, you know air shots that that week But I hit that one good one I came back to the uk and was like this is what I want to make my next hobby. I love it And so I bought myself a half set off eBay. I went to my local golf club. It was a really hot day in May and I walked past the clubhouse. Everyone was outside, went to the nets to practice. And I was whistled at, I was sung at. One guy said it was really nice to have some fresh meat at the golf club. And I was like, whoa. This sport is so fun. It's addictive and I absolutely love it and I'm outdoors and you know, it was great. But then I started getting involved in the culture and I was like, Oh, this isn't great. And as a woman who had a full time job, which I think seems to be some weird concept to many golf clubs still. I couldn't just turn up on a Tuesday. To play in the competition if I wanted to learn my handicap and I didn't have equal access at the weekend. So I was like what's going on here? You know, I've played so many different sports in in my life to varying different levels of competitiveness And I think never had I ever felt so much of an outsider as I did in golf So I decided to start an instagram page to I guess document my journey Learning how to play golf, keep me honest and keep me practicing, but also with an aim to show women and girls in particular, but also just everybody that despite what, you know, some people may experience at golf clubs and in the golfing sphere, it is such a great sport to play. So that's how it started in essence. Then, you know, my platform grew, it started gaining traction. I was asked to write some thought pieces and to do you know, some presentations on getting more women and girls into the game. And then the European tour, what was then the European tour? And the ladies European tour asked if I would be interested in doing some presenting. Uh, which I'd never done. And I had no experience in, but I thought, Hey, I'm I'll give it a go. And yeah, the rest is history. Now I have my own TV program on CNN and I'm the founder of the UK women's golf community, which is the biggest women's only golf community in the UK. We have nearing 10, 000 members. And I, I, you know, in
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:essence, what is that community? What does it do? What's its aim?
The Jazzy Golfer:It's a two part model. So one is a very supportive online community of women. Where we all congregate to discuss issues, anything from like, what do I wear, to where do I get my clubs, to does your club have a maternity policy, or I've been discriminated against, how do I deal with it? So, you know, it covers a range of topics. And then we do something similar to the park The park run model, whereby we have 15 set hubs all across the UK where women will turn up in a fun, friendly environment that every other week throughout most of the year, no dress code, you pay less than a tenner for unlimited balls, and you can just practice in a fun, safe environment. And then we do kind of, you know, one off big events. Like we've got some women here today doing a meet and greet with one of the pros and all of that kind of stuff. So I think, I think we're trying to keep women in golf. You know, and we're trying to bring them together to show them that there are more of us than we realize. Cause women are getting into golf, but I think sometimes when they get here, it's not set up for them, or they're treated, you know, a particular way because they're women, and they leave. So that's what we're really hoping to address through this. Yeah, yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Incredible, in seven years, that's
The Jazzy Golfer:The women's golf community actually only started two years ago.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Wow. Congratulations on that. That's fantastic. Thank you. Let's talk about what you see in this world, Transcription. What's, what's, when you're looking at it, I want to talk to you about the brand. And Jay Lindenberg is one that, I've been in golf. I've got sort of connotations. I probably got memories of it But also I probably misunderstand what it is now and what it wants to be So let's just take get people up to speed in terms of because people see a badge and they see your name and they say right ceo of this company and we think we know what what you're about but Why golf what's the?
Hans Christian Meyer, J Lindeberg:What's the root in? When you talk about the badge, we call that the bridge, the JL. Yeah, bridging fashion and sport and that was kind of how it started all back in in 96 with Johan Lindeberg, our founder. A good friend of him was Jesper Pannevik. Yeah, he's still playing. Uh, PGA tour back then, and, uh, he has his own reality. Exactly. You remember him? Yeah. And, uh, Johan came, uh, as a marketing director, uh, out of diesel and actually made diesel. One of the, from my perspective, as I remember it in the nineties, one of the hottest denim brands. And he had a view on, and a very, very clear vision in terms of, you know, let's revolutionize golf, and had a feel that if he could change the game of golf, the world wouldn't look the same. Yeah. And to be quite honest, I do think that we have, uh, managed that a little bit, uh, in terms of putting fashion on onto the, onto the golf scene. So in one of our internal presentation, we have a picture of Vic back in, in 98 in, in the Masters wearing a pink pants. And, uh, if you ask me that picture could from, could be from yesterday. So it's very much about that We are, you know, always challenging status quo. Uh, we are the bridge. Bridging fashion and sport. That's also the JL, which we're very proud of. And, and we are trying to bridge everything that we can, uh, bridging with our community, which is, kind of a two way communication today. Uh, whereas in the past it was very much about, you know, the brands, the retailers kind of owned that communication to watch the customers, but through everything that is happening in our industry, uh, yeah, you need to be very tuned in with your, with your customers. And the breakdown, who is buying your product? And that's a stupid question because it's very, we call them the stylish socializer. Uh, and I tend to, uh, compare them if, uh, we have outdoor as well as one of our sports concept. And a good way of describing is that they are, you know, uh, climbing, let's say, Mont Blanc, and, uh, but they don't need to be the first one up on, on Mont Blanc. they are doing it with their friends, because they want to spend time with their friends or families. And they also, you know, having a, a great lunch on the way up or way down. And, and other brands might be, you know, more for, uh, Getting up there the fastest and the easiest in terms of lightness and so forth. Our customers want to look great. They want to look great on the golf course. They want to look great on the tennis court. They don't want to look great in ski slopes and want to look great all aspects of their lives. So it's,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:that line between performance and lifestyle and culture. but you're not a performance, but you're not, the sort of Adidas, Nikes, uh, in my head, I see a marketplace there for performance kit. And then you've also got sort of just lifestyle brands. So you are somewhere in the middle there and on that map.
Hans Christian Meyer, J Lindeberg:That's correct. from the legacy of how we started, we started as a golf brand. And I think from how we've been, leading the company since Johan left in 2008, there's been a lot of different creative directors. There's been a lot of different CISOs I joined in 2020. And what we've been focusing on really, I would say the last 18 months is really get clarity on, on what is the brand. And ensuring that the ready to wear part of what we have in our collection is, you know, sporty, but it's still very, very fashionable. And hence getting, I'll say the brand even tighter and more into a lifestyle. And where we then will see the performance concepts that we have are going to be more few, pure performance concepts. So the golf is going to be tighter, the ski is going to be tighter. But there's going to be a ready to wear collection, which is going to, talk about the lifestyle and active lifestyle, which is, is fashionable, uh, but sporty. Okay.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So when you're looking at the classic sort of brand ambassador position, so the famous golfer. Versus let's say, you know, you've got now got a creator marketplace, which is thriving and, it's how a lot of people are engaging with, with sport. They're two different things. How do you weigh up the sort of balance between those? Because there's one which is more about performance, I would say. Yes. And the other one is, is doing something else. And something like, you know, jazz is much more relatable potentially. And they've got the gods of the, of golf and it could be golf or sports generally. Yeah. Ambassador sort of position is, a different one, but it's interesting because it's feels
Hans Christian Meyer, J Lindeberg:like it's changing. I think first above all, everything needs to be authentic. I'm pretty sure that the clients, the consumer today, Can see if it's faked or not, if it's paid, and hence we're trying a lot to build, you know, a close relationship with the people we're working with, uh, being it, you know, ambassadors or being it, different, platforms, customers, whoever it really needs to be genuine and, and there we need to sit down and, and, and Be partners and try to find a solution that is good for the Dillenberg brand, but also good for that person, that ambassador or that platform so that it comes across as authentic and genuine. And that's more than just money. What else is it? It's about, you know, personality. It's about, you know, being genuine, being, a nice person, but also being demanding in terms of we're demanding to ourselves in terms of who we are as a brand, how are we showing up in the various areas where we are showing up? What's our qualities? What's our distribution strategies? How are we, investing? What's our return on investment? I mean, we're not naive. End of the day, we have a business and a brand to, you know, be responsible for, but we want to do it in partnership. And those partnerships should be long standing. It's like a marriage. If one of the partners in that marriage is not having a smile on their face, it tends to be a divorce. And that's not always that happy. It isn't. I'm not jumping to you, Chris, for
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:this reason,
Hans Christian Meyer, J Lindeberg:but
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:it's a difficult segway. Good timing on that one. Note to self, don't let
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:my wife listen to this. What's the day job? So, yeah, I mean, ultimately, 16790, we are the cultural brand agency of Endeavor. So our job, at its simplest core, is varying on disciplines, be that PR and comms, creative strategy, etc. But at its core, we are there to steer brands through the cultural landscape. So, you know, a lot of what Hans Christian has just said around the bridge and finding that cultural sweet spot. That's essentially day by day, what we try and bring out from our brands.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And client wise, I know there'll be a lot of them,
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:but in golf? In golf DP World is a, is a, Big international client of ours HSBC, we do, we've run their golf be that through IMG, 16790, the broader business for many years, going back to Wentworth and the World Match Play when it was actually, I think, in October, so, yeah, it's come back to that period, I guess, and various others, but certainly, sort of, as it pertains from London, those are, those are the two that sort of stand out from the time that we put in. www. larryweaver. com
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So this is about golf, but it's also about, it's broader, it's about the sports marketplace generally and about sportsmanship. Is what is being sold what brands increasingly want? I think there's a, there's a question. Is there a, is there a mismatch there?
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:I think it's, I think it's hard to give a straight answer because I think it depends on the brand. You know, there are the traditional B2B brands that have a role. With the old form of sport, if you like and, and that is, and probably shouldn't go away, you know, the, the Rolexes of this world are in golf for a certain reason and that reason probably isn't for a concert. But I think more and more as fan consumer trends shifts that this sort of aperture has changed so or broadened rather. So it's kind of, yes, there's the need for that, but there's now a need for more consumer facing brands, more intelligent activation from brands in terms of finding the passion and talking about that. And that might not be the sport itself. So I guess, you know, a lot of what. Jazzy and and the like would be working on from our perspective from brands perspective is how to tell the brand story in a way that Resonates with the audience and I think particularly when you're looking at some of Less endemic type brands. That's the biggest challenge Because you cannot a reason for them to be there correct and and you know, there are There are reasons that sit in the 18th Green Hospitality Unit and, and they drive the commercial benefits of the business, but from a brand perspective, and I think more and more businesses now are leading with their brand in terms of coming into sport they have to find the natural and, you know, you said it yourself Hans Christian, the authentic way of being there and simply putting a logo on and pumping money into prize funds doesn't do it.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:What do you think about that, Max? That, that sort of, how has the TORS inventory evolved over time? Cause it feels like it's, it is changing and it has changed, but people put golf sponsorship into a particular box. Again, it's probably out of date, but let's, let's just explore what that means now.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:Yeah, no, you're right. And it's a terrible shame those days have gone, Chris, where it was much easier. I'd imagine.
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:Yeah. We have to actually have to do some real thinking now,
Max Hamilton, European Tour:but no, I think that the big thing for me is it always starts with the brand. You've just said at the start of the brand. So the way we would look at it, Richard, is that we have to create. Bespoke partnerships. That's how we look at it. So we have, we have B2B partners. We have B2C partners. We've got some that do both. And, but all of them are different. They're all very different. We have to be able to basically meet objectives and we're very, we're in a hugely competitive market to, to do that and not just, you know, within golf itself, then you go broader within, uh, against other sports and then against sports and entertainment and everything else. So that's how we look at it. We've then, as a result, looked at adapting what we have to offer, the sort of suite of assets we have. So the biggest development in that in the last five years has been digital content, probably.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:And then within that is, how do we bring, how do we, how do we tell authentic stories, back to that point about authenticity? How do we bring our partners into the game in an authentic way and tell their story? to the audience that we know is consuming via those channels. And that's, that's really interesting for us. And we can do that again from a B2B or B2C standpoint. But there's that component as well on top of the, from our perspective, you know, the globality of certainly of the tour allows us to be scalable. So how do we bring our partners into different markets over time? that matter to them, which is great. And also flexible. How do we bring them into a different levels in different markets over time and maybe change the selection of where they want to activate over time? All of that's possible, which makes it a wonderful sort of Challenge if you like, but being able to draw on those different parts makes sense. So it's, it's, as everybody probably knows, it's not now anymore, it's not badging and a bit of hospitality and all of that. It's, as you see it here, this wonderful mix this week of, you know, I suppose brands doing very, very different things. but all of them making sense for what they've got to achieve. You know, we've got Buffalo Trace here who are here second year now, for instance, our new partner who are expanding rapidly in the UK and they're all about getting tasting, you know, at the event and getting the product in people's hands and they're doing that in lots of different ways and bringing players into it. And there, I think, I think Over time we, yeah, that's what we've seen. I think it's just become more of a challenge, but with that we've built a real capability, uh, to, to address that, particularly in that area of digital content where we've been, we've been right up amongst it in terms of award winning pieces that we've brought, you know, with the likes of BMW this week. And
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:the sort of digital output. That was it's been a sort of story the last From where you'd source it, but it has As you say it's been award winning and lots of people point towards the tour in terms of okay Well, there's there was at the beginning And we're going back now probably 10 years or maybe five years Maybe where where the content started to change and look and feel different and it was funny And the players were involved and it had a sort of personality And people say well actually I like that but i'm really quite surprised the tour were doing it because again You People's connotations of what a golf tour would do. It feels like that's been quite a significant shift in the look, you know, the way in which you're sort of presenting to the world.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:Yes, that's, that's very true. And it was, it was a really significant shift and it was Our old CEO, Keith Pelly, who, who came in and said, right, we are building this. We think this, this is the way forward. In fact, this is how people are going to consume golf going forward. You know, and it is, it's true. It's certain if we want to attract the next generation to bring them into the game and make it more accessible, golf as a game is brilliant in terms of bite sized chunks, isn't it? You can see that this week in terms of all the amazing, uh, content being generated. So we had to do that and we had to build an in house capability to do that. So we did. And we had, and we were very lucky with our players that we had great talent in terms of bringing stories to bear with, with, uh, to bring to the players. But we also had players who were willing to do it and recognized this is an opportunity for them, for golfers who maybe hadn't had that much of an opportunity to build their personalities and build their. their own personal brand, I guess. So, so that's, that's what we've done over the years. I remember McElroy doing a piece right back when I joined in about 2017 with a kid, do you remember? Jamiro Golf Estates. And we'd basically seeded a load of very awkward questions for McElroy in, in amongst that. And they sat and interviewed him. That was one of the first pieces and it, you know, it, it absolutely blew up. Yeah, since then we've just done more and more and more. So yeah, it's been grand including Ryder Cup, obviously when that comes around.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah. Yeah The the question I guess from the brands potato is the same question about the this sort of what you're what you want to buy And what is being sold? I'm not asking you about the interaction of you know in terms of the contractual arrangement with the tour But I'm just thinking about more generally. What are you looking at? What are the options available to you? you've got all the levers available to
Hans Christian Meyer, J Lindeberg:you. That's an entire ocean of options. Uh, so it's really about, you know, knowing your customer, the style of socializer and where are they. Through the different funnels of, top, mid and low funnels. How are we, uh, going around with our investments in the various, uh, areas. Uh, layers, uh, where are we investing and where are we driving and what content are we putting into the top funnel in terms of driving brand awareness and, and how are we investing in low funnel in terms of doing, you know, conversion rate online? Uh, And there's a question,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I guess the, the question gets to that sort of brand versus product marketing issue that top of the funnel, bottom of the funnel, the attribution question. And obviously when you get to digital marketing, the promise of that is greater attribution. You can, you can track that last click but you've also got to manage your brand over time, which again, there's a sort of tangible intangible question within your job, isn't there?
Hans Christian Meyer, J Lindeberg:It's really about how creative we are and how talented we are in terms of creating, uh, a red thread in the various funnels. Even the low funnel needs to be, you know, true to the DNA of the brand. If it's too, you know, basic or too boring, well then it's not really delivering on who we are as a brand. Still, we can't be too edgy because then we'll be losing out on, on, you know, many of our, our customers that are buying, you know, not the most, uh, fashionable what we have in our collection. The most fashionable is obviously driving the desirability of the brand, but we have like, you know, all other brands and Navy Polo, ours is just, you know, smarter and, uh, fitter in, in, in the fit. And it says J. Lineberg. Selling a lifestyle. Stories is obviously about, yeah, making a picture of, of who we want to be. What's the world of Jay Lindeberg? But then once you're part of the brand, you will not. potentially looking like, you know, uh, the most fashionable person on, on, on earth. It could be just a, also a belt, uh, which would, you know, be distinguished because it's had a British buckle and then you'll be, you know, feeling, well, I'm, I'm part of the J. Lindeberg brand, but I'm not wearing, you know, the most, fashionable, uh, top. So it's really about balancing it and then being smart about how we, develop that content. That is, hard work, and it needs to be pre planned almost six to eight months in advance because we need to know when Victor is playing, whatever, uh, the Masters in, the U. S., well, then we need to know, okay, how is he going to be dressed on the Thursday, how is he going to be on, on the Friday, and making the cut, which he didn't, but then what is he looking on, on Saturday and Sunday, and that goes for all our players. And that,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Jazz. Do you work with commercial partners? How do you do? What sort of questions are they asking you?
The Jazzy Golfer:I mean, it's been really interesting hearing what these guys have to say because it really resonates with me. I think every brand Has a personality and I think choosing the right person to tell the brand story is so important and you know creators Content creators, influencers, however you want to name them, I guess a part of that journey. I mean, I don't know. I think that the word influencer has some sort of negative connotations with it. I think you think perhaps, with respect, people that come out of Love Island and flog a new, toothpaste every minute. That's, that's not kind of, that's not really what I see myself as. I like, I like to, I mean, I am a presenter first and foremost and a campaigner, but I guess I do do the influencing stuff. So I would say I influence in the truest form of the word. Whereby I influence people to play golf,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:but there is a coming together, isn't there? When you look at the way in which television sky BBC are, you know, NBC in the States the way they're behaving the way They're looking at your marketplace and saying actually we need to be more like that. There is a there is a Blurring and you see it. I mean, we had Rick Shields on our podcast couple weeks ago and we were talking about, you know, he was working at the open at the, with the RNA and with Sky on the presentation. So, and there is something else that happens, I think. So when people see you in real life, what's it like when you meet someone who you are familiar with in, you know, on the TikTok feed or you follow, it is a bit odd when you see them in real life. It's just. There's a familiarity there.
The Jazzy Golfer:I uniquely get two things pretty much every single time that people will say to me. The one, the first one is what is your actual name? Cause everybody knows me as the jazzy golfer. And it's Jasmine. So it's kind of a play on words. But the second one is you're a lot shorter than I thought you'd
Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf:be.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:I'm
The Jazzy Golfer:five foot two. Maybe it's that I've got, you know, a big personality or something. People think I'm, you know, a lot taller than I am, but it's really nice. And I think that's, That's the real appeal of creators and, you know, golf personalities, influencers, et cetera. It's that you feel like you know these people. So when you're meeting them in real life, quote unquote, for the first time, like it's like you already know them and it's not the first time you meet them. And I think that's the real, the real draw for so many people because. You know, your, your, uh, role models and the people that are like you are easy to find and also easy to access. You know, it's not unheard of that you could message some of your favorite people and they might actually message back. You can't really say that, you know, from say 10 years ago, you'd have to wait at the football ground or wherever to try and get a shirt or a signature. And that wasn't, all that likely. So I think the social space is so important into bringing different audiences into, golf, especially people in minority groups, especially women, especially juniors into what is, you know, traditionally a male dominated sport.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:yeah, you're right. There's a, there's a sort of superhero thing where you've got, you know, the, the, the top players and it's about money. It's about. Just the way in which they're presented. So what one of the jobs marketing does is sometimes distance us. from them, they look other and actually you're doing a different job. Whether it's familiarity or whether it's just a, I think, I
The Jazzy Golfer:think it is. I mean, also I think, and sometimes this is a criticism of social media that you only see people's perfect lives, but I, I think for me, it's important to keep it real and, and show the frustrations. Cause like, regardless of whether you are, Rory McIlroy, Nellie Corder or me, like we all shank it. We all have putts that lip out. So I think it's important to show that relatable side. We're all human beings. We all make mistakes. We all have frustrations. And I think that's, you know, that's a real appeal of, of social.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:And isn't that also one of those unique parts of golf? I think in that relationship, you watch it, you go out there and watch a player and you go, I could actually. try and replicate that shot. Well look at Tony Bellew on Wednesday. Yeah, look at Tony Bellew on Wednesday in his albatross. Yep. Yeah, but at the same time I could also embarrass myself and shank it in front of, you know, and that's also possible, but you're also doing it, I think, when you come to an event, a golf event, you are up close and personal with the players, you are. You're right there. You're right beside them. And some tell me I'm a big football fan, but football, I feel, has lost a bit of that, because it's
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah,
Max Hamilton, European Tour:it is. It has distanced itself.
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:The talent has almost been put on such a pedestal that the access is just not there. Which I think plays heavily in favor of that next, you know, that user generated content piece of, well, how do we tell the story because actually even if brands can afford the top, you know, there's limitations to access. There's IP ish matters. You know, it's not easy to just, you know, Get Rory to tell a brand story or Ronaldo or whatever else. So, so you have to find, and when you do, fans see through it. Unless, you know, maybe less so for a brand like, you know, Jaylenburg or Nike or whatever else, because they, they need those products. But if you're a brand that doesn't operate in the sport, I mean, you look at the likes of F1, for example, you know, with the exception of tech businesses that clearly have a story, that's just a lot of companies wanting to be in the paddock and, and the clutter to cut through that is. It's almost impossible. So you, you know, you can't just get Lewis to go and do it for you. You have to think more broadly and, and kind of find innovative ways to tell the story.
The Jazzy Golfer:I think with golf as well, it's not just the top players that we're seeing. I think there's such a wide range of personalities on all tours that it doesn't have to be a Rory McIlroy. I mean, beef golf is one of my examples. He recently came back and played really, really well. He's taken a And because of his personality. People welcome him back with open arms. They love his content. They love him. They love his character. Marcus Armitage, who's in the field this week as well. He's another, just the bullet. He's just another funny personality on social media. You know, not as high up the rankings as a Tommy Fleetwood and a Rory McIlroy, but still the, the personalities and them being themselves on social media, I think allows them to get, you know, great engagement, great audiences and, and, you know, just kind of. Are
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:you finding humor is a sort of tone that you have to use more in social? Because I think from a brand perspective, it's, it's increasingly visible that humor is a thing. I think the days of
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:You mean it cuts through?
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:Yeah, because I, I guess it's different by market. Certain markets are a bit more sarcastic than others, for example. But like, yeah, I do think it's really cutting through. And I think the days of, You know, the last five, eight years have been all about purpose and we're responsible businesses and whatever else. And I think now society has reached the point, certainly through the world of sports partnerships or cultural partnerships. Like, if you're not that, don't even be at the conversation. Like, that's now a given. It's hygiene. We all know. Consumers buy responsible businesses, buy the right businesses, buy into the brand at a level way beyond the product. And I think now I'm noticing humor is actually a tone that's coming through a lot more.
The Jazzy Golfer:It's, I think that's a hard ask as a creator because you can't just make yourself be funny. You know, you, you either have the humor, I love that kind of, you know, humorous approach or, or you don't. So I think, and also it depends on the topic that you're talking about. You know, if I'm talking about like diversity and inclusion, there isn't much that I can say to make that hilarious, if I'm honest.
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:You know, I mean, I guess it's like, it's light hearted. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that
The Jazzy Golfer:it's just exactly, it's, it's definitely it's definitely a spectrum, I think. But I, you know, I think that's where like TikTok has really, Just absolutely escalated. It's also,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:when you go to, like, we do a thing with the Cannes Lions, you know, creative awards, and there ain't many laughs on that shortlist, you know?
Max Hamilton, European Tour:That must be changing soon. To your point, Chris.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I think there's a sort of, you know, zag against it. But it's still, I mean, it'd be interesting in your view, what the humor is quite, it's, it's local quite often, to your point, it's quite difficult to talk to lots of different people in a tone of voice, you know, even on a tone of voice is really tricky. The safe option is just to avoid it. So I can see lots of corporate reasons not to do it. I completely agree with your sort of premise. any, any sort of views from the, from the floor? I want to get uh, Sean. I almost forgot his name then. I've
Hans Christian Meyer, J Lindeberg:known him
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:25 years, five years in business. I forgot his name. Any questions, points, things that if you wanted just to sort of join the conversation, there's a question about the, maybe the sort of social media. That feels like such an old phrase now, social media. Mark. Yes.
Mark Cornish, KORE Software:Yeah, uh, so Mark Cornish, uh, Core Software. So it's been fantastic listening to this because if we look at the, the data sets we have, we know from a social media perspective, golf's up about 32 percent year on year in terms of followers. And then if you go deeper than that, you start to see the impact that, for example, Jasmine and other creators and uh, influencers are having as well. In fact, what's quite interesting is if you look at the last four years. Content creators or influencers, however you want to describe them, were responsible for probably about 11 percent of golf engagement. So engagement being likes, shares, uh, comments, etc. Whether that's text, posts, video, etc. That is now predicted to be up to about 26% by the end of this year. Content creators and influencers would be the largest or the, sorry, the second largest piece of the pie when it comes to social media. The tours, uh, the event organizers still are providing the majority of engagement, but influencers and content creators are now ranked second. Uh, and that's ahead of players and it's ahead of media. So I guess there's a question at the end of this, which is like, how important would it be for brands, tours, as well as the content creators and influencers to collaborate more in the future? Like what's the plan? What's the strategy?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Just to build on your point, we did a thing on the Olympics and you know, who won, what, which brands popped. around the Olympics. And a lot of the conversation was all about digital sort of cleverness around the edges. It wasn't the sort top partners who've paid, you know, enormous amounts of money for the, for the rights. Well, it was them. It was Samsung, but it was Samsung cutting through. It was, other brands, not all of them. Apparel brands, Panasonic. So there's, it's quite interesting in terms of what digital marketing is and how it's evolving and where that line, as you say, between, would you call it traditional and digital? I don't know how you would frame it. What do you think? what's happening because if that trend continues. I mean, happy days for you. It means you've got to make some decisions in terms of how you allocate your budget.
Hans Christian Meyer, J Lindeberg:Yeah. And as I said it before, it's really about thinking 360 degree around who you want to target and how are you talking to those customer in the most efficient and the most authentic way. And I don't think that one is going to replace the other. I think you need to make some choices. At least what we're doing or trying is that doing less but do it better. because that is clear.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And you mentioned media and sponsorship. How much, I'm not going to ask you exact figures, but the sort of proportions that you're spending on sports sponsorship in the context of your, all of your marketing spend? I don't know whether it's 5 percent or 50%. I have no idea. Of the
Hans Christian Meyer, J Lindeberg:entire marketing budget. Yeah. Uh, going into sports, there will be, uh, around 40 percent that, that, uh, going to what we would say, you know, partnership with DP World Tour. Ambassadors, creators, content creation, yeah, closer to 50%. And 50 percent would then be, you know, getting it out there.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:Yeah, yeah. I think it might be, Richard, as well, a question of, uh, You want to be there. If you've decided you want to be there in golf and you want to be, let's say you want to be here at this, this event, the big question is how do you want to be there? Like, how do you want to show up at this event? Do you want to do, and this is back to your earlier point about, you know, the standard stuff that we've, we know and love in terms of some of the branding and some of the, the hospitality that's unique in golf and pro am access and the, the big access points and the assets we, we can offer, but then it's really, it's, it's, what am I going to do to cut through? You know, at this event and then broader than that, I'm like, if you can't come to the event, I'm still, I'm still accessing the audience, you know, via the things that we're talking about, Jazzy's talking about via. Via the influences I might be working with via the players I might be uh, sponsoring. But those things, I think this is where it's gets really interesting. And I, especially with golf actually, because you're not restricted, you're not restricted from a, a space perspective. And as we say, just in terms of this audience that's, that's growing and growing, there's so many different things you can do. You know, it's not restrictive. So we love, and certainly as a tour, we've had good examples in the past of like, really challenge it, challenge us, show us how you want to activate, do things, you know, we've, we've a Hilton example here where we started with a bed. The back of the second green, you could win a chance to lie on the bed and watch the shock come in. Chris nodding.'cause I think he was somewhat responsible for that And at the time we were going, oh my God, he can't do that. And then we built a house, I built a a room and then we built, you know, it was a fully serviced room. How are we gonna do that? And then it turned into. Being at the Ryder Cup last year in Rome, a huge. So you just try and push the boundaries from activation. So I think a lot of it's about how you, yes, you've got to, you've got to pay for access. And that's part of my job, but, but then how do you want to show up?
The Jazzy Golfer:And
Max Hamilton, European Tour:that's where we love to get into those discussions.
The Jazzy Golfer:I think to just directly answer the question about Collaboration. So I'm not surprised to hear those statistics. I mean, if you're, if you're a brand in the industry, there is no better, I guess, marketing tool in the entire repertoire than to use a some sort of creator. I know I'm slightly biased, but, you know, speaking factually here, you know, if you were looking to reach millennial you. Women and men who have an interest in golf. I mean, you know, my audience is perfect. You don't get that necessarily that much of a niche targeted audience. Other than, you know, social medias or creators that are at least guaranteed to see, to see your content. I actually think there is a lot of work going on in that space with creators. I, I, I see a lot of creators on site, uh, at events, a lot of, you know, different personalities doing work. So, I think there is already a lot going on. I think obviously, you know, People like Max want to diversify their kind of portfolios with that kind of thing. They don't want to oversaturate it. So I think we will see more, but I don't know necessarily how much more. Cause I think there are probably other avenues like sporting personalities as well.
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:I think from my side, the collaboration is key. And to your point, I would definitely echo it happens. And I think it's just organically happening more. I think, you know, it's, Where in the past I think the event itself or the sport itself, you know, brands were in there more for the purity of the competition and the sport and what that brings. I think now brands are leading in my mind they should be leading brand first, not audience first. So what are we trying to say as a business? And yes, the audience is the sense check of we're in the right fishing in the right ponds, I'd speak. But if you're being brand led, you're using. The property in the case of this week, you're using the sport of golf purely as a mutual passion point, but you're using the passion point to tell the other stories. So I think that collaboration, players do one job because they tell about the sport, Jazzy and the like, do the deepest job of telling about the brand. So it's kind of, to answer your question, like it kind of needs it all. I think the ecosystem doesn't, if you're going to cut through the ecosystem doesn't work if you only do one or two in isolation.
Merrick Hayden, Revolution:Uh, Merrick Hayden from Revolution, uh, you're going to love this Richard because I'm basically giving a shout out to the power of the pod. I do love that. Jay, Jay, Jay Lindbergh coming in first year to, to the tournament. We kind of sat down and said to the team here at the European Tour, how can we come in, do something authentic that's going to fit well with all the other partners. And one of the ideas came out. Well, let's do something with a podcast and I'm hoping you're going to be a fan of the Peter Crouch podcast. Pretty huge, uh, following. He's a fan of the J. Lindenberg brand. He's a fan of golf. So we collaborated with that podcast. Peter Crouch, uh, podcast, but work with Max and the team here at the tour to say, okay, well, what's the most authentic way of making that happen? So Pro Am Day has to stand out. So let's do a podcast, but let's do it on the range. Let's catch the people as they're warming up. Let's, you know, make it authentic. Let's catch them as they're coming off the range. So we had, you know, you've talked about him this morning, Tony, Tony Bellew, we had Michael McIntyre from the world of entertainment. We had Andy Murray from tennis, Jamie George from rugby. So all of those guys doing a great, great job of singing the song of, of like somebody said earlier, of making golf sexy, making golf actually appeal to the bigger, wider audiences. So I guess the summary of that is. Great work from the tour. Great work from a brand. Make it authentic. Don't do something that's stuffy in a studio. So bringing it to the range and making it happen and getting those personalities to talk about golf, but in a authentic lifestyle way is, is great. So shout out to the pod, shout out to the tour. Excellent.
Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf:Hi, Ben Sharp from Callaway. I'm going to be purposely provocative. And I think you know, everything I hear is, is great in terms of the media, in terms of the different forms, in terms of different content and the different activations. And you come to an event like this and you see it all. Sort of transpiring all its greatness and this is one week out of 52 in the year. My question really is on the game and the product of golf and whether the product of golf is relevant for all the medium we've got or are we bifurcating the game? Because we talk about inclusivity, we talk about it being easy to play, we talk about welcoming. But then many of our actions in the game are completely opposite of that. So, we make it harder in terms of the equipment restrictions you've got. We have people not playing on the same tour, so we don't see the best players in the world every week. And so you ignite a spark in an audience here, and then you go away, and it takes you a long time to feel like, This again. So, you know, I think it's just interesting to hear your thoughts around around that. Because there's one thing around all of these great things that we're doing and all of these sort of great ideas. But if it's falling on half an audience, it's it's difficult to really get momentum.
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:Uh, yes. Um, I, I think there's a, I think every property, and I'll hand over to Maxime, but I think every rights holder, every property with that football team, you know, the tour, whatever it may be, needs to know who it is. And I think to your point of diluting the product, I think there's, I think it's challenging. You know, I'm, I'm pleased I'm not the rights holder side because I think it's hard to keep up with societal expectations whilst maintaining purity of the sport. And at the end of the day, the passion is sport. It is still the reason why people are here, mainly. It's the reason why Sky Sports pay what they do to broadcast it. So I think, I think every. Property runs a risk of following habits and forgetting what it's really there. And the, the challenge, which I don't envy is bridging culture, bringing in entertainment, et cetera, whilst maintaining that purity. I know it doesn't really answer your question, but I guess it kind of echoes the concern.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:Well, I, I certainly Ben can, would agree on the, the dilution if you like, or, or the division in the sport at the moment. Good luck. We knew that we'd have to tackle that at some point today. And, uh, we all want alignment on that side. So from the professional games perspective, men's games perspective, we want, we want alignment. I know there's discussions to try and get there that are progressing. So yeah, I mean, I guess the way I think about it is how good would it be to have this type of event That we see here today with, with all of the world's best players. They're not all here, you know, this week and how good it would be to replicate that elsewhere. I bring, you know, I, I remember just looking at the Olympics a few weeks ago in Paris and I wasn't there, but I was, I was seeing it and the, it was incredible. Like we, you know, the 30, 000 people a day or something they had there and an incredible Helped by an amazing leaderboard. An amazing leaderboard, yeah. And you had all the world's best players playing it. And it was so, and we see it at the Ryder Cup, you know, we see it, but that's not often enough. So all of that, we're hoping. Gets resolved. And by the way, I'm wearing a number. Oh, of course, of course. But But the the other side of it in terms of the kind of making golf More I guess making decisions within the game that are keep Keep building the access points and keeping it. I think you're right. I mean, that's, you know, some of it is feels, feels, uh, just the wrong decisions being made to do that because there's so much momentum. The way I, I, I think about it is if. If the game can align and we can solve this macro issue that's going on right now, wow, because there's so much momentum in participation, in engagement and in access that we've been talking about today that will pop, that will really explode. And you only have to walk in today to
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:see the age and the demographic.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so all of those things that we've been building in pre pandemic, but pandemic kind of accelerated it with golf when the world slowed down and actually realized what golf could give and it does. There's an element to golf that I think is so fascinating in that it's a bit of an anecdote, an antidote to the sort of stress and busy life everybody now has. Like when you go out in a golf course, or even today, when you're out watching, you're, you're removing yourself for a number of hours. from that. And there's a place for that, that I think is maybe underappreciated within the sport. So you've got so much momentum. Can we, can we get there? Can we align it and bring it to the next level? I really hope so.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:and we talked about it, Ben, when you were on our podcast, I think it's a really interesting question. We go around, obviously we're talking about golf today, but we go around to, All the sports, you know, and we we did a thing at World Rugby and we did a thing with with the ECA the European football Association and They are asking the same questions. Essentially. Is the is the product right? Does it fit the marketplace? Does it does the audience want this and then I think there's been a shift in the What it's worth. I think there's a that best be best all the time You question, which is sort of McKinsey model. This is what we think sports should be. This is what we think the audience wants to be. We saw it in the Super League being the obvious example. It feels like that's not actually what people want. They want it some of the time. And obviously we've got Neil here in the R& A. The majors have been, you would argue, elevated in this last few years because of that. You know, this is, this is where we can guarantee the full turnout. I don't know what we think now, but there's a, there's a, there's a sort of sense that in, in rugby, in football, in tennis, we're seeing it. How do we navigate this challenge? And it's, the live moment, the thing that that's hovering over golf at the moment, I think has been really interesting just because of the things it hasn't proved as much as. You know, the assumption being you're going to disrupt a sport. Every sport is looking at this sort of, we're going to get disrupted. The official game versus the, radical outsiders. And actually, Does the audience want it is, is really interesting.
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:Exactly. This is an interesting point. We're noticing sort of the Superbowl moments as we sometimes refer to it. Like there's so much sport to consume. I think people now pick and choose when they come in and then they go out and they go into another passion point and another interest. So I think, yeah, the challenge isn't the BMW PGAs or the Superbowls or the opens or the, it's what's happens in between. And maybe it's okay to not have. Big every week, look at cricket, like, cricket is too much cricket, arguably. We're sports fans,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:you know, we know what mediocrity looks like.
Neil Armit, The R&A:Yeah, hi, it's Neil Armat from the R& A, uh, Chief Commercial Officer. Uh, I mean, the way I'd, I'd sort of look at it to Richard, and I think there has been a, degree where have the majors become in some ways, a bit of a beneficiary because of, almost a sense of a lack of, a really kind of coherent of narrative. I would say yes in the short term, but I think actually sort of longer term, it will become sort of problematic because I think the, golf consumer probably in the moment and I think, you know, sort of personally, I think there are challenges, with the product. And I think the longer that goes on, I think you're actually starting to see what's going on. Probably a certain degree of a bit of, consumer apathy starting to, kick in. And so, you know, eventually the, the, the game of golf will not benefit, actually having. A strong tour, a strong product means that you'll also have strong majors and vice versa. And it becomes more virtuous as opposed to a sort of a vicious sort of downturn. But you know, a authenticity has come up a lot, you know, today when you're trying to manufacture, that becomes sometimes, consumers want that authenticity. So they've got to believe in it, but there is so much. Competition for attention in sports in entertainment So the product's got to be coherent It's got to be clear. One of golf's greatest strengths is the fact that it is Global in nature as well, but actually is our product fully global in nature as it currently stands? Possibly not. So I think there are some some some challenges. I think there are some fantastic opportunities as well, but the product consideration is a is an important one for all of us in the industry at the moment The Callaway
Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf:guy again. So, I think that's, I think I, you know, agree with what's been said, and just sort of finishing making the point, because, you know, listening to this podcast and listening to the media around the game, we're always talking about the top of the pyramid. And there's The rest of the pyramid stuff that you know the content that Jazzy creates is talking about the rest of the pyramid and for us to sweat sell more sweaters to sell more media we've got to have a sort of aspirational journey to the top of the pyramid or viewing that and it's that top of the period has to be connected. We also have a responsibility as an industry to talk about the rest, and to invest into the rest, and to get people into the rest, otherwise we die at the top. And so I think that's where, I guess, my comment is based, is that, as an industry, as an economy, we rely on the middle and the bottom, and we rely on the top to inspire the middle and the bottom of that pyramid. And so if we just keep talking about the top, and if we just keep on spending the money that we are at the top, I think we're missing the point of the game.
The Jazzy Golfer:Yeah. I, one thing I think is really important is it depends on how we define what golf is. I think so many people see the stereotypical 18 holes, which not everybody in, especially in this day and age has time to do. I mean, this is just my perspective, but if you wax and balls regularly at Topgolf, if you play go fish with your kids, like your golfers, if you play mini golf, you know, your golfers, if you play on a par three. You know, mini nine hole course, you're golfers. If you only want to play nine holes on a full course, because you don't have time for a full 18, you are golfers. And I think the industry needs to do better, not only to market itself as actually quite a diverse, You know, product but also a very accessible one. We don't talk enough as Max kind of pointed earlier. We don't talk about the fact that golf, you know, I could play with Rory McIlroy, this is wishful thinking, and maybe because of my handicap still win, you know, some sort of Stableford or whatever. And that makes golf so accessible. You could literally play golf with anyone and the handicap system makes it really fair and fun to play. So I think, you know, to, to your point. We have to be careful about how we define golf because if we're just trying to sell an 18 hole product that is not fit for purpose for so many people. Even golf club memberships are not fit for purpose for so many people. So I think we need to be, yeah, just careful on our definitions and making sure that we advertise, you know, the full spectrum of our game because there will be, in my opinion, something that fits everybody and something that everyone can enjoy.
Chris Bovey, IMG 160 Over 90:And I think Brands have a responsibility and I think they know that sponsors or partners as we always try and sort of position them is like as they come in to, to your point, they cannot focus on the top, like to, buy benefit essentially to, to get that connection. They've got to get into the, into that pyramid. And some do, some don't, but those that don't, I think quickly get found out. So increasingly that's what we're doing. That's the money, ultimately. The money's coming in from sponsorship. Sponsorship needs to hold its hand up and do more, I think. In that pyramid. I
The Jazzy Golfer:mean, there are some really great things happening on site. You know, you've got the DP World golf ball container, where people are encouraged to donate second hand golf balls. They just bring a couple with them, it enters them into a prize drawer, and then these massive shipping containers go to grassroots schemes all around the world. There's another initiative whereby any time an eagle is made on the course today, uh, not today, on, on, throughout the tournament, a thousand pounds gets donated to a, a children's initiative. So that's it. You know, there are great things happening. I think perhaps there needs to be better work done to tell those stories too. But, but I, I totally echo your point that there needs to be more done to talk about that kind of grassroots and amateur side of the game.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I've just got a quick question. If you, to your point about the top. And obviously your business is selling to people like me, you know, down the, way down the pyramid. Are you weighing up the top as the sales route? if you took Callaway off the tour, players said, right, okay, no, we're not going to do that route. Let's do a different route. With that, what would happen?
Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf:Well, I think with all these things, it's, it's, it's a mix. We, you know, I'm rallying my group around, that their objective is to get our products in golfers hands. And define the golfer. I want the best player in the world, I want the absolute beginner, I want the 85 year old guy, I want the 13 year old girl, and all things in between. But what we want to do as a brand is when you have our products in your hand, it allows you to play better golf. So we're always looking at the market and we're always looking to try and find the best players. The right products for the right people. Clearly there has to be a commercial market there, but I think as you start to look at what we're doing, there are different entry points into the brand to allow people to, to play.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So Xander winning the open, playing Callaway, playing the ball, what did that do? Is that a brand thing? Can you attribute Did that?
Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf:Yeah, we can. I mean, there was an old expression back in the day, that what wins on a Sunday, sells on a Monday. And there's still an element of truth in that. You know, we did see our business spike two weeks after that, on the products that he was playing, with the new ball, with the new irons, with the new driver. It is a brand play, though. It's an association with your brand, that you believe is, you know, The best performing products with the champion golfer of the year. So there is a, as a benefit, you know, we, we had a moment in time last week at Royal County Down as well, which we're very proud of. So it does have a an effect, but I think with all of the different forms of social media and content, it's, uh, it's still, it's still a very important part to the top of the pyramid, but it has to be connected to the rest of the industry now.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Right, I'm going to start rounding up because I'm very, very conscious that this is a very busy day for lots of different people. So, and I really appreciate your time, both the guys here in front of the mics, but also the rest of the people in the room. And I really want to thank, the tour. I want to thank James for his hard work in the, in the run up to it and his team. Thanks Max for your, for helping set this up. And thank you to Mark and Cor. it's lovely to be here and we're going to go out and enjoy the golf, but in the meantime, thanks very much for your time.
Max Hamilton, European Tour:Thank you. Pleasure. Thank you.