Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP429 The 3: The Melancholic Leaving Them Wanting More (Question Mark) Episode
The 3 is a failed experiment in podcast format innovation.
The 3 is a creative collaboration between Unofficial Partner and Leaders in Sport.
The 3 picks three stories from the sports business week and dissects them on a Friday morning.
The 3 may return, and it might not.
This week Richard Gillis, David Cushnan and James Emmett pick these three stories:
Will the cool kids be wearing FIFA 1904?
Wither the Wimbledon line judge.
What is Brand Saudi now?
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Yeah, the law that Modi had irons. Well,
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Lots of people liking it, lots of people not liking it, lots of people sort of, stealing it. So yeah, no, interesting actually, quite an interesting experience. We've been talking to him for ages and we nearly, as I said before, we nearly did it. Ages ago, and then it didn't happen. So, but it's quite nice just to get it done.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Richard, surely the whole thing is just a big play from him. He's, he's bitter that his massive bid to take the whole competition was dismissed out of hand and, and now he's being, well I never wanted it anyway.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Yeah. I think that's the weakness. The, the bit that everyone is, you know, that I was interested in was what he was saying about the a hundred and the, you know, the way he dissected the rain ECB sales deck. I think the rest of it, I completely agree. I think he's a sort of flawed narrator in many ways, because Yes, he's got he the idea and he didn't want to talk about it too much, but it did involve Mick Jagger as a sort of cultural force. And I just thought, well, actually, I think that's a flawed idea. I don't get, you know, that's not going to work. And likewise, yeah, we wonder if that's lying behind it. I think you're, you're almost certainly right. and there were a couple of other sort of inconsistencies in it, which I did in the newsletter yesterday that, it's just because he's coming at it for, for odd reasons, doesn't mean some of what he was saying is absolutely bang on the money.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Well, well done. A good get,
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:It was a good get. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. We've got leaders next week, and so this is sort of, it's almost like a bookend, we're not going to do one next week obviously, because of the week of leaders, and then we need to think about, well what, what are we going to do, is this going to continue, I quite like getting together, there's a lot of people, the numbers on the podcast have been extraordinary. Thank you very much. There's a latent demand.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:is is that what you say during every recommissioning process?
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Is this, is this that one? Is this what it is? The
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:I don't know. Just extraordinary. Define extraordinary.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:No, I think there's been, no, but I think the sort of feedback has been quite interesting actually, because we set out as a, as an experiment and we'll,
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:It's a failed experiment in some regards. But have we, have we created something, you know, different and, and perhaps better,
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:I think we've changed, we've created something slightly different. Whether or not it's better is a question mark, but there's some, there is definitely space for something. I like, I like having a space just to round up the week. I quite like that. Now we started out And one of the early conversations, I think it was a pub conversation with me and James saying, what about starting on TikTok? What about a live stream? What about a 10 minutes? What about doing something completely different? And we failed in that regard in terms of form, but
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:but as you say, the figures are extraordinary. So
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:there's a clamor. A clammer for more. You know, I can't, I can't think of a better word than clammer.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Richard, do you think the people clamouring would be willing to put some money aside each month in some sort of Patreon for this, this type of content?
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Oh, that's a lovely idea.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:you think?
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:I don't know, actually. That's a, that's an interesting one. We've, I mean, we've stayed away from that because our model is, is
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Because you're cowards. You've stayed away from that because you're a coward.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Well, I just, I mean, there is a sort of element of, I think it's an interesting thought. We've stayed away from it because Advertising and sponsorship is our model. So you want a bigger audience than, you know, a smaller one. And I don't know how much you'd have to charge. It's interesting. You're seeing in the States, a few people sort of get putting up paywalls for various things. And the word is that that's really hard labor. You know, in terms of, and even in the market, like America, trying to work out what the price point is to justify, based on the numbers that are going to subscribe to you, even the big titles, I think are really struggling to, to make that work. So, but you know, Who knows?
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:we've got a podcast session next week at Leaders Richard, actually, which might be quite enlightening on several aspects of this. We've got global representative from global obviously big. radio station owner and advertising force in in the UK. But obviously they've gone big on podcasts recently. We've got a guy from Spotify who'll be joining that session as well. And we've got the the CEO of The Overlap now discuss is The Overlap Gary Neville's I think weekly thing is, is that a podcast or is that a vodcast or indeed a TV show? But it should be a, should be a, I think a, a chunky discussion.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Yeah. I would have liked a small upstart in that conversation because I think you've got global is coming at it and Spotify, they're coming at it from a, and so the overlap to an extent, they have a particular perspective on podcasts that is, big, you know, so it's coming at it as a quasi radio product and you are selling programmatic advertising across You know, their platforms and they can do that because they've got a massive or can claim a massive number and aggregate and all the jobs that big media always do. I, my argument is that podcasts in their initial form, at least, and still the way we're doing it is, is offering a slightly different product in the marketplace. And I think that they will have a particular view and they will want everything to be video. They'll want everything they'll sort of play to the big platform argument and. Yeah, I think there's a sort of an alternative there, which is the reason that podcasts are popular in the first place. If you just turn them into radio, it's like blogs, when newspapers started writing, you know, calling their articles blogs, the game was up. But then, you know, so you centralize everything onto the big platforms. Whereas actually, I think podcasts, there is a strong argument to say, no, don't do that. And that's certainly one of the arguments we're trying to sort of sustain. We did, we dabble, you know, video Is bitter a part of it. We're not very good at it. I don't think that's what people want, certainly from us.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Well, come on down, ask a question. Ask a question during that session.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:I will. When is it?
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Oh.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:See, I thought you would have. I thought that was curing. I thought you were curing up. I didn't. That wasn't a trick. That sounded like a trap question of trying. How well does David know his own event program?
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:it's
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:that wasn't what this was about.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:history suggests that it's over this final
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:it's two 30 to three o'clock on, I'm gonna say either Wednesday or Thursday. That's the
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Okay, well come along to both
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Wes it's
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:and find
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Wednesday. It's on the Wednesday.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Yeah, my sort of 3D mind map of the
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:doesn't include
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:full program. No, it does, but it only comes over this final weekend before, and I think by Monday morning I've, I will have it memorized, committed to memory.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:So I think revealing who is kicking you off on the Wednesday morning, that's always a sort of where, where's your money, where, get them in the door early. That's
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Yeah, well, it's very much pay your money, take your choice, Wednesday morning. We have got on the headline stage, kicking off, Gerard Piquet
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:oh, okay. Yeah.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:the footballer and the
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:The disruptor, the serial disruptor these days.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Yes.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Kingsley, etc, etc, at Cosmos, so he is going to be on the headline stage, and at nearly the same time over on the creative stage Rory Sutherland is coming to do a turn.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Ah, yes. Friend of the Unofficial Partner podcast. he's great value. That's, that's interesting casting because I would go with Rory over that one. I think PK is a good get. But I think Rory is, although I've heard him a hundred times, he is entertaining and yes, so that's interesting you've put them against each other there. So yes, I think that's a ballsy move.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:We're starting big. We're starting as we mean to go on.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Yeah, get them, get the, the queuing into Twickenham. They'll be, it'll be whatever the reverse is of the sort of, Helicopter out of Vietnam, whatever the, whatever the opposite analogy of that is, they're coming in to Twickenham. They're trying to get a helicopter in.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Yeah, you would not believe the amount of time many people within the leaders business this week have spent looking at the sort of medium term weather forecast for specifically the sort of three or four hours on Wednesday morning, which is very much prime time down at registration.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Yeah.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:do have some umbrellas.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:VIP umbrellas? Do you pick out VIPs? So if I'm standing there, do I get an umbrella? I get someone coming up and covering me. Whereas the person next to you, you can, you don't have to worry about Sean. Obviously he can, he can get as wet as anything,
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:I think it's, it's
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:just lucky to be there. But whereas I am going to be, you know, I'm assuming an umbrella, there'll be coverage.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:well, it's umbrellas and it's umbrellas for VIPs, speakers and partners. And then I think anoraks for everybody else. Thank you. For the sponsorship, for the sponsorship nerds, as you dubbed them a couple of weeks
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Sponsorship nerds, sports marketing nerds talking of which. I think we should jump into our three stories and I think that I love James Emmett's story this week. I think this is a, this is a master stroke. So what, what he's doing here is of course bouncing off the previous conversation that we had about Arsenal and streetwear. And we're now into a different territory. James, take us, take us through to this, your, your, your pick of the, pick of the week
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Well, this is very much an in and other news sort of story. So interesting that you're kicking off with this. But yes,
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:see, I don't think it is other news. I think I can always, I can always move a topic from other news and lend it gravitas. That's what I do. It's who I am.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:the day. Well, I thought we had a sort of entertaining, but maybe perhaps slightly muddled conversation about fashion licensing and collaborations centered on Arsenal last week and Arsenal's various activity with Adidas, Labrum Ares, et cetera.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Did you get any feedback from that conversation?
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:we did, did actually, yeah. In fact, a piece of feedback
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Because you don't know what you're talking about.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Well, that
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Along those lines,
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:at me, that particular bit of feedback, Richard. Um,
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:think I, so I think it was the third kit confusing Adidas role and Airey's role. And I thought, Oh yeah, okay. That's fun. And we did say. On the podcast, that's a fundamentally wrong take.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:you know, that stuff that the, the merch, the Adidas Ares, the Arsenal Ares collab, I'm seeing that stuff everywhere. People are wearing the caps all over London. So it's clearly making an impact. But maybe it's the sort of high society fashion circles that I operate in. Anyway, today's story that I bring for you is it's about our friends at FIFA, World Football's governing body. So they have signed a collaboration licensing agreement, some sort of deal with a New York based fashion platform called V Files. And so V Files and FIFA are going to work on a new apparel line, which will have both men's and women's wear. To be released in the spring of 2025. This line is going to be called FIFA 1904. 1904. Yeah, very sexy. It's got letters and numbers. It's a proper alphanumeric brand that. FIFA 1904. 1904 is the year of FIFA's foundation. And so this, Collaboration is going to have pieces, I mean it's unclear what type of clothing it will be. There's a quote from V Files founder Julianne Key, who is also apparently a shareholder in Barnsley Football Club. But Julianne Key says that this collection will inspire what does she say? There's a certain style in football from the executives to the players and FIFA 1904 covers the need for aspirational, chic, stylish and versatile clothing that caters to the demands of their professional lifestyles. This will inspire the creation style look and feel of the FIFA 1904 collection. So this is interesting to me for a few reasons. I thought last week the Arsenal Ares LinkUp was very smart very strategic and I can see exactly what Arsenal and clubs, teams like Arsenal are doing when they do deals like that. When FIFA does something that apparently looks similar, I don't really understand what the point of it is. What is it for? FIFA fundamentally is not like Arsenal, Paris Saint Germain, Brooklyn Nets. It's not a team brand that is trying to fill It's not trying to create brand value in the same way as a team does. It's not trying to become a lifestyle brand in the same way a team does. a team is, or is it? Is FIFA a lifestyle brand? What IP do they have to lend to this sort of collaboration? Again, Teams, Arsenal, PSG, etc. They have the players, they have athletes, you know, they embody whatever this collaboration is going to be. FIFA don't have that. FIFA, FIFA have competitions. They don't have players. Or do they? Maybe they do. And it's an interesting sort of development, I think, after the the big EA bluff that was called And there is no longer a FIFA game to put out the FIFA name to do the work of the, you know, creating brand value for FIFA. I think it's interesting that FIFA are trying to find opportunities to put something else into the FIFA name. So it's interesting in that regard.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:I find this fascinating. David, you want to go or should I go?
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:No, you go.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:This, I think you're right in that this is revealing of FIFA's self image. I think it's revealing of its ambition. I think it's revealing of a whole set of assumptions it's got about what its role in the ecosystem is. And I think. Each of those is flawed what FIFA is, is, as you say, it's a governing body. It's an event based governing body. it's jumped on this trend of, okay, we need to have a collab with a fashion brand. We need to talk to the kids, et cetera, et cetera. And we also, I can see a absolute car crash of, You know, whatever Infantino is going to be wearing at the World Cup final next time around. The blue suit and white trainer's look, which defined Qatar is going to be sort of put aside to whatever this is going to look like. Hopefully. I really, I really, really hope
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:interesting on that, on that point, Rich, and just sorry to interrupt your flow. This isn't the first time that this has happened. They actually have, FIFA has a very wide ranging agreement with Adidas, which on the surface is Adidas supplying balls for tournaments and sort of general football equipment to to FIFA partners and competitions, etc. But it also includes a kind of organizational. clothing licensing agreement, like Adidas supplies custom made FIFA Stan Smith trainers to FIFA executives. I'm not quite sure how far the reach goes. I don't know whether,
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:As modeled by Infantino.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:as modeled by lots and lots of people, Rich, in fact, I think it even extends to, maybe you can ask I know you're doing something at the HBS launch in November, maybe you can ask The HBS folks, whether it extends to them. Cause I've got a feeling that HBS execs are also issued with these FIFA standard issue Stan Smiths, which is kind of really interesting subset of this kind of branded garb.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Well, we'll see. I will ask the question certainly. And we could talk about Salt Bay next, that could be the next bit in terms of the, the sort of collaborations that FIFA seem to get into from a cultural perspective. I just, there are so many things here. It's interesting the Julianne Key thing, the Barnsley connection, that isn't that, um, what's his face from Moneyball? Barnsley? Didn't that,
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Yeah. Billy Bean has something
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:didn't they,
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Yeah. That were
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:that a link?
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:in a consortium of some sort. I, I have to be honest. I've not heard of Julian Key before.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:No, I haven't, but I've, I've heard of Barnsley. The, so FIFA 1904, again, heritage. It's like a sort of, again, I love a brainstorm, but you can see these ad creatives. When did, when was it created? Let's go right to the beginning. Let's talk about the origin story. That's, I'd be interested in, whenever this comes out next summer, Yeah. Weather, James, when he's walking through his sort of deeply fashionable milieu. He's he sees, same way as seeing Aries brands, popping up, whether or not we see people, young hipsters in FIFA 1904 gear, walking the streets of
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:There is a bit of a niche value. I think in, in this type of collaboration, I remember we did an event in in China in February and we had Dave Gillett from Xtreme E come to speak at it and he was wearing standard issue Xtreme E. clothing that the execs and staff are issued, I suppose, and it was a, an extremely branded puffer jacket made by Moncler and Moncler is obviously a big
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Very nice brand.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:nice brand. Honestly, the gasps
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:for Moncler work
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:He was the belle of the ball, Richard. Honestly, everybody loved this. Everybody in China loved this Xtreme E Moncler co branded jacket. So I do think there is, maybe you know, maybe it is just a
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Are we filing this under, I'm not the target market? Is that that's always the get out, isn't it? That's the, Oh, you don't understand you're not the target
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Well, but in this instance, perhaps we are the target market. You know, we, we know these kind of niche sports brands attached to fashion brands. We quite like this stuff.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:I think to answer your earlier question, James, I think FIFA would absolutely love to be seen as a lifestyle brand. And I think it probably sees itself as a, as a lifestyle brand already in some respects. And I do think your point about the, what happened with the FIFA game is a very good one. And I You know, this isn't a like for like replacement, obviously, but there is still. You know, in many parts of the world, amongst many fans of football who don't really care about the business of football and the politics of football, you know, FIFA still stands for something other than, as you said, Richard, what it exists to do primarily, which is, you know, governance and holding. The World Cup and other selected other events. There's, there was a really interesting deal done in another sport between fever World, basketball's governing body, and Carl Lagerfeld in April. Which, I mean, if you read the quotes from that, you know, delighted to partner with for this exclusive collaboration, which will engage new audiences in our sport. Together, we share a commitment to innovation and to embrace cultural influences that transcend sport and fashion. And that's it. That's a collaboration that's focused around a specific bit of FIBA. So they're three on three basketball. Of the game. But again, another example, the FIA in motorsport have a partnership with Alpha Tauri, the Red Bull owned fashion brand that until last year also was the name of an F, one of the Red Bull F1 teams. So these things are not, you know, this is not unique. I think the The easy reaction to this is to sort of slightly mock FIFA for it, but I do think there are, I do think, well, it's very easy and enjoyable to do that, of course, but I just, I, I'm going to be fascinated to see how this, this plays out, because I, I suspect there's going to be a bit of a market for it, not in the same way as you might buy Master's merchandise, for example, or, you know, you maybe might buy. As we'll maybe come on to talk about Wimbledon merchandise. It's just slightly different from that because this is a governing body, but I think there's, I think there's, there's value in the FIFA brand that they can try and extract. And this is a, this is a, a potentially quite inventive way of
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:I think it's, I think it's probably a signal that they're about to do more with Legends as well. I did ask the sort of rhetorical question about player. They don't have players. But they, of course, they do have players. They've got a big FIFA Legends program. They've got, They've got, stars of the game retained for all sorts of promotional work. And I imagine we're going to see these guys decked out in this, this stuff in the near future.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:This, this, this cannot be marketed in the same way as the club world cup is currently being marketed as a, as a one
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:No. Although I maintain that all FIFA activity in 2025 is going to be a surprise smash hit. I think the Club World Cup is going to be super successful
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:You're buying
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:I'm buying FIFA, I'm hot on FIFA I think There are going to be Paris, Milan, you know, New York catwalk shows that are referential to this spring 2025 release. This, this,
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:okay.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:this is going to move,
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:need to, I'm just, I'm
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:going to move the market.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:just let me timestamp this this moment. I think, so I, I think the opposite. So it's interesting. I like a bit, you know, I'm not doing this purely to have a sort of contrarian view, but I do think that. These feel like the sorts of projects and, and this is the fashion thing is a sort of very marginal play, but they're starting to tot up these projects that have been under Infantino. So we've got FIFA plus question mark. We've got the decision to get out of the EAA deal question mark. We've got the club world cup question mark. We've got FIFA music, whatever that was called question mark. All of these things have been coming out. They're, they're redolent of a organization with a lot of money. We won't know whether these things are a success or not, because we'll be bombarded with data and sales figures and various things. Cause that's what comms is about. It's designed to, to protect FIFA from the question of, is this working? Is this a success? I think these are boom time ideas and they are just, it's, it's an organization which has, is awash with people. And I, a point I quite often make is that the market for sport is a very inefficient one at punishing bad decisions. And I think we won't know, frankly, and they will try and establish a success story and it's going to be very hard over the next few years to penetrate it. I do think the EEA decision, people are sort of saying, well, hang on a minute. What do you look at? So we've got Thomas Bach, who is leaving the Olympics when Infantino does eventually leave FIFA, we will then start to say, well, let's look at his tenure. And as I say, those projects that I've listed there, each of them has. A major question mark up against it and there will be others along the way. So I think there's a although this is a on the on the face of it, a sort of marginal other and more, you know, and now type story. I think it's actually quite interesting in terms of what it says. But see, I did. I see. You see, we moved it. We moved it from you. The end of a news bulletin to the beginning. That's, that's that's one of the things. So I think the obvious place to do thing to do here is to jump to from FIFA 1904 to Ralph Lauren via the medium of Wimbledon and tennis. So the story I've chosen is just as a way into this is the I love this story is that Wimbledon are doing away with their judges. This is the Daily Mirror and heartbroken Wimbledon line judges have love and passion ripped away after their AI decisions. So this is a brilliant sort of moral panic story, which is Technology, this evil force in our lives is coming in and is stripping Wimbledon of its, its line judges, of which obviously we can see where the story would then go. You would go to McEnroe. You can't be serious. The arguments, the doubt, that's all part of the Wimbledon experience. And now we're going to get these sort of drone like decisions that are made by computer as though we haven't already. So Wimbledon have confirmed that their line judges will no longer be used with AI introduced to the championships from 2025 onwards, as the individuals are left to deal with being cut. One of the things we don't know, I when this came about, the Ralph Lauren thing, I think is quite an interesting bit of sponsorship trivia in terms of where that, what that means and whether it means anything, frankly, because I'm sure that they've. This is a whole conversation that they would have had before announcing this and something that Wimbledon do. They tend to do you know, in the winter where they get these sort of potentially bad news stories out the way before the championship run in. So, you know, they're hoping that they'll die down. I think that there's a, there's a couple of things here. One is about. The Wimbledon brand, which I've always been an admirer of. And because I think it's slightly counterintuitive. It's not quite what people think it is. I think it's evolved better than most in terms of this wrestle between the past and the future. And I think, you know, telling they quite often come out sometimes 80 with IBM and that, you know, in terms of sometimes it's an activation quite often, it's a sort of future facing message that they got, they run into the championship with. Rather than the obvious context of Wimbledon, which is tradition and strawberries and cream and posh people enjoying tennis and blah, blah, blah. There's that. And then you get to the Ralph Lauren deal, which is again, you know, and that's relatively new. I was trying to think when that started, but it's actually, it's only the last few years and probably someone will sort of get in touch and say, don't you need it? It was been 10 or whatever, but I don't know, but it's a bit that that's, it's a nice deal for Ralph Lauren. You see it spread across there. Yeah. stores. And when you walk through Bond Street, there's a massive, great big activation around, you know, Wimbledon time, which all works very nicely. And, you know, brand wise is a nice fit. So we've got AI coming in and a VAR type conversation that some of the media outlets will want to, to have. I just, just escalated this slightly in the newsletter this week, I was going to say that I thought the question mark I had about this was the, the red flag I had was that they're doing this because this is what the ATP and the WTA are doing. And I think. strategically I think Wimbledon and the grand slams should avoid doing what the ATP and WTA doing. And I know that politically is probably makes no sense, but I think the way tennis is evolving where you've got pif money coming in, CVC floating around, looking at, trying to do something with the middle of the market, the The stuff that is sits below the grand slams. I think actually we've got Saudi money, which we'll talk about again later on is coming in and over bidding for the middle of the market across lots of different sports. We've seen it in golf. We're seeing it in tennis. I think that the what that's done is escalate the value of something like Wimbledon. And I think keeping the line judges would have been quite interestingly counterintuitive move. And a sort of put some again, more white space. If that, if ever that were required between the top and the middle, which is where the sort of all the money is flowing at the moment. So that was my two penneth.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:On that last point, maybe, but it's also worth thinking about. Remembering that Wimbledon is fundamentally working for and wanting to do a better and better job every year for the players and the players ultimately want consistency of rules and how they're applied and how things are judged across the calendar, across the foreground slams, across the calendar. So there is an element of at some
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Can I just, there's one point on that. Sorry to interrupt, but I do think that this is more. Style over substance. the line judges are using AI anyway. They are a piece of theater. Now what I don't quite know is, are they going to be removed from the theater entirely? I don't, we don't know that yet, but that's the bit that I think is,
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:yeah, and that's, and that's fair because the, they are in some ways. Sort of cast members in the garden party bit of Wimbledon, right? And when you walk in and actually particularly when you walk through the outside courts at Wimbledon around the grounds, that sort of movement you see, it's almost sort of a bit balletic is you know, that sort of movement you see, it's almost sort of a bit balletic is You know, it's part of the charm, right? There is
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:particularly when viewed from the hospitality boxes, which is where you and I normally are residing.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Very much so, very much
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:It's nice to look a buy.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:around though, occasionally, isn't it?
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:I do, but I don't like doing it. It just feels like, okay, well, you know, why go amongst the plebs when you can be in the hospitality, in the hospitality boxes at Wimbledon, you can, and balletic is a nice word. I like that. And you can see it and you see it unfolding, but you need a perspective of being up there with a large glass of wine in your
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:I, I feel sad for the line judges who will no longer get to be line judges and are heartbroken. And have told the Daily Mirror that they're heartbroken. But honestly, I'm struggling to get too emotional about it myself. I think it's a natural, a natural move as, and Wimbledon, I think you're right, has married up introducing new technology and innovating in all sorts of ways. Whilst at the same time, recognizing that it's, it's big strength and it's big point of difference actually from the other three grand slams, let alone the rest of tennis is the. The garden party, the social event, the history, the heritage, the grass, etc.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Think for an organization that gets so much brand right, I think this is a misstep. I think he's my, I think that's my position. Having thought about it and written about it yesterday and that, you know, may, I think that's where I'm landing on this.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:First of all, don't worry about Ralph Lauren. As you say, Richard, they definitely will have talked about this before this decision was made. There will be space for old genteel English folk dressed in Ralph Lauren garb about the place. Don't worry about
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:ball boys, ball boys and umpire. I presume the umpire is still going to be there. They're going to be, yeah, ball, beep. Yeah. Ball, ball,
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:all kids, all children. Yeah don't worry about
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:worse, it's worse than what you think
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:And actually to David's point, you know, the, the way that the line calls are made is already supplemented with the use of technology at present. This is a move that has to be made at some point because it's anachronistic, isn't it? To have a system that is based, will be based almost entirely on technology, and then you've got all these people standing around the court pretending that they're making the decisions. It is just
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Yeah. But
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:And at some stage,
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:sport is an anachronistic, you can't say let's get rid of the anachronisms in sport because otherwise we're just left with a computer game.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Perhaps that would be good. But I, would say just on the technology front, like if there is any debate about whether technology should be used in this instance, of course it should. Line judges in line judgments in tennis are completely different from the way that technology is used in soccer in NFL, it, I mean, it's binary. Either the ball is on the line or it isn't on the line.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Yeah, I know. I agree. I think we're all agreed that the tech is there and they're using it and they should carry on using it. And I, all we're saying is. It's a peculiar move, I think, because they didn't need to make, cost wise, it's margin, you know, it's pocket change for them in terms of how much Wimbledon turns over.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:we, we had Sally Bolton on one of our Leaders in Focus episodes back just before the start of this year's tournament. So that would have been June and she talked about this and she, or talked about the marrying up of and how she. looks to balance up tradition and innovation. And she said, what, what I'm focused on is recognizing the protection of the things that are really true to our heritage. Not just that's the way we've always done things. Quite often, people make a case for protecting something as a tradition when actually it's just a practice we've done for a long time. So she's, and I've, I've, You know, she wasn't saying at the time, but this was, this has obviously been something that they will have thought about for a long time. I actually think that the more interesting change that Wimbledon has made this week as part of this sort of end of year announcements looking ahead to 2025 is they are moving back the start times of both the men's and women's finals from, I think it's 2pm until 4pm. UK time, which is absolutely a move towards growing a U S audience. And they've done this thing for the last couple of years in New York under the Brooklyn bridge staging a sort of Wimbledon watch party, and they had Nicole Scherzinger perform this year which obviously is a sort of, you know, breakfast time, mid morning. type of event, but they've got a very, very big ESPN deal. That's clearly as with the rest of sports, a market that they are looking at in all sorts of ways in terms of building an audience. There's a nice new crop of US players who are starting just to sort of, you know, nudge up the rankings a bit. So I think that's a, that's an an interesting move, which will. Obviously also have the, the byproduct of moving, particularly the men's final, if it goes long into sort of primetime BBC Sunday evening, very likely finishing under the roof. So, yeah, I, I think a shift there that I think ultimately will be almost in time more, more visible and impactful.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Ralph
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Yeah, I think that's really
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Ralph Lauren started with the Wimbledon in 2006, by the way, Richard.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:See, you start to, you know, when you, as you get older, it's not like when you're a child and every day is a, is a lifetime. As you get older, the days get shorter and things just seem, things in the rear mirror just seem, you know, closer than they are. It
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:this, this end of series episode, isn't it?
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:is. I'm going to start
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:it's autumnal. This is our autumn episode, isn't it? The
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:It is the autumn episode. Well, that might be the title of it. That might be quite a nice,
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Which of us is going to get killed off at the end?
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:yeah, well, you know,
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Are we going to leave on a cliffhanger or?
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:it could be like a squid games type scenario. See, that'd be a new format, sport business, squid games, killing one of us as we go, go through. Right. Okay. So we're on to the final three that of the three stories we've selected, we have David Cushton's choice of the story of the week.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Yes, and really this is knitting together two or three deals that have been struck in and around Saudi Arabia this week. So first of all, you have Riyadh season doing a big deal with DAZN who will become the host broadcaster of this you know, the, the season of events, which is now in its sort of 4th or 5th year, just beginning runs from sort of October through to March and it's sports events. It's cultural events all under the sort of patronage of the General Entertainment Authority in Saudi Arabia. But Riyadh season very much. The brand Riyadh season has also this week done a three year partnership with La Liga to become an official partner of the league. And then you have also in Spain, Riyadh Air, which is this brand new startup airline that's coming on stream in 2025 which is. envisioned by Saudi Arabia to be a, a carrier that will be of the same sort of premium quality as Etihad, Emirates, Qatar Airways, Riyadh Air becoming the, expanding its deal with Atletico Madrid to become the naming rights partner of the stadium. So it's, it got me thinking about, it seems to me that there's a there's a tendency for people to talk about talk very generally about Saudi money coming into sport and it's Saudi money, but actually you now have very clearly Quite a jumble of brands coming through in terms of being the sort of public you know, the, the forward facing brands that they are using to talk about and invest in sport. You've obviously got all roads or most roads leading to the public investment fund, although interesting going back to tennis that earlier in the year, we actually saw public investment fund logos at a number of events. I think a TP and WTA events as part of their strategic deals. You have Surge, which is the new sports arm of Piff. You've got obviously the, the mega projects. Ne Kaia. There is Riyad season itself, which is both event organizer and sponsor of various various things. Obviously the Riyad season. Event at Wembley Stadium. The Joshua fight a few weeks ago was very much a sort of sponsorship and funded by the Riyadh season, which is run by as I say, the general entertainment authority in Turkey, Al Al Sheikh, who's the, the top man there. And it's really the man who's really focused on boxing and is making waves in that sport. And now on a, on very much on the brand side, you have Riyadh Air. An airline that, you know, to all intents and purposes doesn't exist yet, but will in 2025 doing very substantial sponsorship deals. Their CEO is a guy called Tony Douglas, who was the CEO of Etihad. So he has the playbook. He knows what he's doing and we know how big airline sponsorships work and how they are very often linked to sport in terms of destinations and host cities. You can imagine Madrid being one of the early sort of planned key flight routes out of Riyadh. This is very much going to be the new. airline for Saudi Arabia. So the existing Saudi is being sort of shipped off and will work out of out of Jeddah. It's interesting to me that in, you know, with Riyadh season, with Riyadh air, it is brand Riyadh, the capital city that's being promoted rather than Saudi Arabia, which is what you might expect. So I think there's a lot of things there, but I think at its heart, we're seeing a number of these brands now emerge as really significant players underneath the whole underneath the headline, Saudi investment in sport.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Excellent summary. James Emmett, what's your your view? I've got a view. Do you want me to have a view first? This
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Sorry,
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:meetings where he's got his
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:yeah, I'm just fiddling. Just trying to find the mute button, to be honest. But I don't really have a view beyond that, Richard. I think this is, this is classic sort of soft power, slowly, slowly building. It's interesting what David's sort of outlined there about the emergence of some very clear, different brands that all come under the the banner of Saudi investment. I think the one, I do think the outlier there in terms of. Of marketing objectives and know what the point of its sponsorship is still is piff. I still, I still can't understand the point of putting the PF brand in consumer facing positions. I certainly understand the point of PIF investing and having sponsorship positions. But I
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:I think it feels like a response to The live experience. I think they are in tennis changing their strategy in terms of just their brand strategy of PIF because in golf, they are positioned, PIF is positioned as a murky sort of shadowy organization being chased around golf courses with microphones. And it's likewise with Newcastle. It's, it's viewed as a sort of PIF's role is. off stage. It's manipulative. It feels like it's it's the money. It's the power, but you never see this shadowy presence and brand wise for the country, but also for the organization. That's obviously a bad look. And you're, what you're getting into the problem with private equity is that private equity is they like to be private and so it's difficult for them to, to have a you know, brand strategy is quite difficult when it comes from that perspective. So I think when I saw like you, I saw, you know, even got a news channel on there, they've got a PIF sort of, channel on its own. So I think the shift has been, okay, well, let's. Use tennis to, make it less defensive. I think it was, okay, we're, we're looking defensive. Let's change that narrative. Let's get out in front. of that and let's use the logo and put it in. I think David's summary is really, really good. I've never seen it, never heard anyone articulate that really well in terms of all those links of, in terms of what's happening and the various brands that they're putting forward. I think, you know, if you go back three years, it would be, this is, this is a sports washing conversation and we can, you know, we haven't got time to get into the. detail of that. My initial view, and it's probably it was a naive view in some ways, was that sports washing doesn't work in the way that they think, you know, the people think it does in that quite often the, the tag human rights gets associated to every story. So it's almost like a name, a reverse naming, right? I think you hear sports washing less and less. I think one of the outcomes that will be very interesting over the next, period will be DAZN and Matchroom and PIF. And whether this is realistic or not, but DAZN being bought by PIF, you know, or if they're not already, or, you know, you never know quite what that means these days. Likewise, Matchroom. So. DAZN, Matchroom, all working within Riyadh season and under the same banner. I can absolutely see that corporately. They're already, you know, you just got to listen to Barry Hearn and Eddie Hearn. They are out there in front extolling the virtues of Saudi. And it's, that's just going to be part of life in the sports business over the next period. And I think that, you know, you hear, Barry Hearn talking about, you know, moving the darts to Riyadh and all the rest of it. You can see that their portfolio of, of sports is going to be. Almost inseparable from the ambitions of Saudi.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:So there was a Reuters report this week that suggests that, PIF is looking at buying into DAZN. And I think there's, you know, we've seen this, this wide ranging partnership announced, which could well be a precursor to something like that being confirmed. And we have to remember that again, three, four, five years ago, there was such a lot of talk in All the controversy around being sports and obviously all the politics at the time between Qatar and various other countries in the region that Saudi was going to launch its own, you know, rival sports broadcaster and it never quite happened. There was something called the Saudi sports company, I think, that existed that was, you know, could have been the vehicle through which you know, a major be in competitor was created. Never quite happened. It certainly definitely caught the eye of a lot of rights holders. And, you know, prompted quite a strong response from from being, we've got a lot of people from the region coming to leaders week next week, including from a lot of the organizations that we've talked about PIF and surge and neon. And I'm really interested to sort of explore because none of those brands, the big. Brands that are definitely being foregrounded and are spending money. None of them include the word Saudi Arabia. And I just, I'm really interested to sort of explore and talk to them and just sort of understand is that, is that sort of by accident as the thing, you know, grows and there's all sorts of, you know, and of course, within the kingdom, there are going to be competing, competing interests and politics, of course, but I'm really interested. Is that by accident or is that by design as a way to your point, Richard, To, To, to try and smooth off this conversation around sport washing, you know, the sort of Saudi sport washing conversation it, but it's just really interesting to me that there's a national vision, a national strategy here. That's at the, at the top of everything that we're seeing. And yet we're not seeing the word Saudi Arabia exist in any of these
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:on, on on that point. David. Last year, La Liga did a fairly significant sponsorship deal with Visit Saudi, which of course is the national tourism body for the country. I believe that that has been superseded now rather than supplemented with the deal that they announced earlier this week with Riyadh season, which is a very clear three year deal. I think Saudi's been punted out and Riyadh season is in place.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:It's interesting. So there's a sort of a moat being built, a brand moat around Saudi. They're devolving away from that we used to talk about China as though it's a homogenous thing. We need to be more accurate and precise in terms of what it is that we're talking about. And likewise, it's interesting how they are evolving and. We don't know how this is going to be fascinating to see how, you know, the people that have moved over from the UK to Saudi, what their experience is going to be, whether they like it, whether the, you know, the money is obviously the, the driving rationale for going. What's it like actually working there, working within this. Type of organizational structure, those power structures that, that exist on that side of the equation, I will find out when we, so I like this bit because it takes it down from, or gets into the detail and the nuance below the sort of headlines, which we all, we can spend days and we've done podcasts on, et cetera. And we will do again and again and again, as we run in to probably 2034 World Cup. Is it?
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Yeah, that's a lot of podcasts between now and then.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:It is. I've got a, you know, you should see my calendar of events running into 2034. People think this thing is just thrown together, and they'd be right. Right, I think we've got to, so we're now at the end of the, what we're calling the first series, and it could be the only series of the three. But we'll, we'll work that out, but we genuinely haven't had that conversation. We'll, we'll get together. We'll do a proper debrief, like, like professional podcasters do. And we'll, we'll thrash out the details and we'll work out whether or not we want to do this again. What do you think?
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:just in case it is the end Rich, can I say it's been a pleasure working with you
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:It has. It's been fun. And whether it turns up in this format or whether it's a different format, James is obsessed with formats. He loves formats.
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Richard, can I just say Don't be sad that it's over, be happy that it happened.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:Exactly. Exactly. We'll, we'll play out on that.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:and see you at Leaders Week. Oh, we should introduce
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:Oh yeah. David who are you?
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:I'm David Cushman from Leaders in
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:And James Emmett from Leaders in Sport.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:You said that was the least. I'm James Emmett. At least it was better. It was better than the Stephen Hawking
james_1_10-11-2024_090240:messed it up again, didn't We We didn't introduce ourselves yet again.
richard_1_10-11-2024_090240:I know Laura, I won't be able to look Laura McQueen in the in the eye. Well, I'm Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner. Farewell.
squadcaster-bbea_1_10-11-2024_090239:Bye bye.