Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP432 The Big Idea - And1 Mixtapes, Joga Bonito and CRTZ
The Big Idea is our regular series on creativity, with co-host award winning consulting Creative Director Simon Moore.
We ask a guest to bring three of their favourite sports related creative campaigns.
This week it's Gundeep Anand in the hot seat.
Gundeep founded The Last Stand and is a docu-style Director & Photographer whose work is influenced by his background as an ex-youth worker, coaching in communities, council estates and schools.
Gundeep choices are:
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These moments are crafted into captivating stories and transformed into stunning visuals ready for your broadcast, live event displays, and second-screen fan experiences, all in real-time.
From head-to-head heart rates to anticipated overtakes, We Are Sweet provides AI-driven insights to fuel conversations, inform bookmakers and predict future outcomes, all in the name of deepening fan engagement.
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Hello and welcome to Unofficial Partner, the sports business podcast. I'm Richard Killis. This is an episode of the big idea, which is our regular series on creativity with my cohost consulting, creative director, Simon Moore. We ask a guest to bring in three of their favorite sports related creative campaigns. And this week it's good, deep and end in the hot seat. Good. Deep is a documentary style director and photographer whose work is influenced by his background as a ex youth worker, coaching football in communities and council estates and scores. His choices are. And one mixed tapes, Cortez by Nike. And joker Benito. And we'll put links to those campaigns in the show notes to this podcast. This podcast is sponsored by. We are sweet helping you tell compelling stories in the moment as they happen from the heart of the action. We are sweet captures live biometric data from athletes. To uncover storytelling moments from key, major moments to subtle micro moments, you might not even know are taking place. These are crafted into captivating stories and transformed into stunning visuals. Ready for your broadcast live event displays and second screen fan experiences all in real time. From head-to-head heart rates to anticipate it overtakes. We are suite provides AI driven insights to fuel conversations, inform bookmakers, and predict future outcomes. All in the name of deepening fan engagement, enhanced your audience's understanding of the action. Like never before. By using live data from, we are sweet.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:Thanks for those choices. Good day. We're going to look at them and then we're going to sort of critique them, ask questions about it. This is a terrible time for a Spurs fan to be talking to an Arsenal fan. You've got your Arsenal tracksuit on as ever. So we'll just ignore that. Simon doesn't know anything about sports, so
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:I hate all sport.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:oblivious to, yeah, yeah.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:no, I don't hate it, but I don't know anything about sport. No, I'm more here, but I'm quite a good creative. So, you
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Okay, okay, great.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:and roundabouts, isn't it? Swings and roundabouts.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:I mean, you're in the right room.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:So Si is a, this is a, he's a regular collaborator.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:I'm here all the time. Well, not
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Oh,
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:It's all he does.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:ad hoc.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:It's all he does. He's comment now. He's at the level where he just, he just comments on other people's choices. So there's a question. I saw you swanning around with Guy Ritchie.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yes. yeah, it was a great day. I can't lie. A dream come true for me. yeah, just as a director or filmmaker, you know, these are the people you want to be around. Yeah. And I was very fortunate enough to be there and spend a day with them. And, you know, it's unreal, like the conversations, just seeing him, how he works, very inspiring for me. And obviously made me realize that. This is the, this is where you want to be,
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:Did he, uh, did he have any little nuggets for you? Did he have any
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:it was,
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:know, this is how you do
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:I mean, the one thing I learned from kind of him while watching him whilst he was doing his work, it was just shadowing him really, what I realized that he knows what he wants and he's going to get it, doesn't matter what you think of it, and I think that's what kind of, I kind of took away from it. And obviously he's a proper lad, he's like a lad lad, so I think he has a way of, Speaking to people and it's a, he has a very different, as you call it, human skills. Uh, and obviously, obviously his portfolio is kind of solid.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:Do you think he's a lad? He's a sort of posh lad, isn't he? He's he's a posh boy who's sort of developed laddish credentials.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Oh, do you reckon? Okay. I don't, I obviously, I don't know too much of his background because I did not know until I went there and, uh, that's what people said to me. but I feel, the way he speaks, it's like a lad, like. like a East London Cockney type, you know, it's just one of them. I think you can easily be, have a conversation and
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:No, I can see that. I can see that. It's interesting. I find him an interesting character. The other bit to it is that strength of personality. One of the questions quite often around any creative work, when there's needs to be an output is one of the sort of underrated bits is that, is that, strength of personality to get the idea through and to own it and keep the idea? I mean, you see it on a smaller scale with advertising that, you know, we've all been in rooms where the idea comes in, people pitch an idea. And then once people, they start to tear it apart or it goes to the client and there's all layers of management who then start to chip away at it. Film. I mean, can you imagine the pressure trying to, Keep the central idea away from just all the people in a film production. It must be just that. Hell.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah. And I feel he's that type of character that can get a lot of people to agree. to his vision or get him, get a lot of people to be like, this is the right thing to do. And, you know, I think that's quite rare, regardless of his background, posh or not posh, I think to have the ability to get everyone to agree and be on the same
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Just to fact check here. Yeah, he is posh.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah. He's like, his dad, like married up. His stepmom was like a baroness or something. I mean, like he's from proper, like, you know,
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Fair play, but what I saw on the day, obviously there is, but then also when you're on those sets, you have to, you realize that you You have to make a name for yourself,
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:whenever I think of this kind of like director trying to control the final output, the story of Tony Kaye, who was this sort of big advertising exec person and went on to make, and made the famous Dunlop ad, the, uh, the Velvet, Velvet Underground ad. Dunlop had, and went on to make American History X, and basically fought so much with the studio for the, which I think American History X is an incredible film, a really amazing film, and it fought so much with the studio that ended up taking his name off it, so his name doesn't appear on the, like he took his name off it because he just couldn't get His vision through and he was, you know, a powerhouse of, you know, you don't, you don't rise up that high in advertising without knowing what your vision is, but just couldn't fight the studio enough on what he, what he wanted.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah. I think, like you said, I think that is the battle. Every creative, right? they think they're right.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah. Yeah. But you kind of have to have that conviction that you, you know, to sort of go into a room and say an idea and go, this is, this is my big idea. You've got to have, You've got to believe it yourself, haven't you?
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:No, I agree, but I think in advertising is different, right? Because you coming from a very pure point of view that will obviously get them the results they want, but they are always going to see it. Does it help us accomplish our goals? Because if it wasn't for their goals, we won't be there in the first place. So I think it's like, I'm sure you know more than me. It's a, it's a, it's not compromise, but I
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah. I think it is. Yeah, I think it is. I think you're right. It is a compromise. It's always, you know, it's always a compromise between the vision and the brand's requirements. You know, it always has to hit some kind of space in the middle.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:but then also, do you know what it is? It's awesome. And I feel like because such a fast turnaround in staff or people that don't stay in these jobs. So everyone's just looking to do a job. And I think the person, the thing that suffers in the end is the brand. It's the brand that suffers. I think it's the people will move on. They'll get what they want. They'll get the promotions. They'll get what they need. But they're not there long enough to know what does a brand need? Because by the time you figure out what's happened to the brand, these people have moved on
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah. Well, it's funny you say that actually, because I just put a thing on LinkedIn this morning, which was, which sort of, it's sort of around a similar point about how we put this big emphasis on the big idea. Yeah. You know, but then actually the craft, the how we make it, the kind of the craft of what we do is quite often kind of slightly bypassed and not really, and it's the, the heart and the soul you pour into it that often delivers a good idea to be great or mediocre.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:and, you know, Richard, you told me about come up with three ideas. So I thought I'll ask some of my people on Instagram and everyone kept saying the old Nike adverts, old adverts, because they had so much storytelling, meaning and connection. Whereas Nowadays, it's just about how can we
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:Well, it's sort of interesting. Let's, let's get into it because you've, and thanks for doing it. So you've come back with, we'll put these in the show notes, but you've got, um, and one mixtapes, Cortez and Nike and Yoga Benito again, which is another Nike ad. Now, some of these, the last one there is about 20 years old now. So it's quite, you know, and it's interesting because me and Simon do this fairly regularly and it's interesting how many people reference it as a point of, point of work. What is it? Do you think?
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah, yeah, so, the reason I picked Anwar Mixtapes was, um, Because of the impact it had, obviously this was before my time, but when I discovered it, and then when I researched it, and obviously I watched the documentary and all that sort of stuff. First of all, the impact it had, and then second of all, it was, it was just also how it moved a group of the young people across the nation and across different countries. Third of all, it had a big business impact where they were competing at one point with the likes of Nike
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:So just explain what it is in simple terms, because I, I, to be honest, I'd never seen it.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:okay. Okay. So, and one was a street basketball brand that was built upon the cultures and the slogans and the things used to be said when they used to play pickup games. So they took that. And they tried to put the messaging and how they feel on the t shirts and they started selling them. And then they realized if they really want to take it to the next level, because they were in stores and stuff, they had to do something different and big. And they tried to do the traditional route, which is sponsor an athlete, big NBA athlete, get it in there. And that's where everything went downhill from them. Because some guy who they really believed in, his shoe, it broke. And, um And they blamed that it was the brand and that was the first big thing launched for them and the brand just went downhill. So they had to think on their feet and that's when they come up with the idea. This is very pre internet era. Um, they came up with the idea of mixtapes and, uh, the whole thing mixtape was just, it was just a, just a reflection of what was happening out there, but they curated it, you know? And first of all, it was just a collection of people playing street, street basketball. The culture, the music, the fashion, all of that stuff together. Then after they started to put their own events on, this is where they went on tour. So again, it was a big need for it because young people at that time wanted, as young people, as you know, always want to belong somewhere, you know, they always want to be part of something. I think human nature in general, I don't think it's young people. You always want to be part of something. So I think that's why it was so effective. It just spoke what everyone needed. When Nike that time was very They're not going to offend anyone.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:which I want to get both of your views on. So is this, does this predate Nike and their campaigns around this? Is this something that talks back to that? Cause you've got something happening here, which is about real people. And again, one of the overarching theme is, is authenticity. And I want to talk about that just in abstract a bit later on. Simon, what's happening here? Just to what's, what's going on.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Well, in many ways, I thought it's almost like proto TikTok, isn't it? I mean, there's a kind of like, there's a, you know, they, I, from what I've read, I'm with you, it's not a brand I knew and I wasn't aware of it, but they're kind of obviously done some. reading and kind of, and they sort of, they distributed tapes across groups of people across clubs and, you know, and sort of, uh, built a brand that way. And it kind of, I worked in student marketing at the end of the nineties and that worked in a very similar way, just sent out loads of tapes and music and stuff to people and, you know, campuses got into it. And I think it's sort of a bit like that in that respect. And it's kind of like, it's, it's pre. Even though the internet was around, it's almost sort of pre internet, kind of, proto TikTok kind of thing, you know, it's kind of like, and funny also that it's kind of like, it's highlights, it's kind of like, ba bum, ba bum, ba bum, which is very, a very TikTok y kind of thing, isn't it now, is people just get the best bits, like, chum chum chum chum chum. So it sort of sits in that space, it's kind of like, you can sort of see because it's interesting the use of the word mixtape, because mixtape is something that was around when I was a child and God, that was like forever ago, you know, and then people started to be able to do this with video and people had access to video. And it's a sort of ease of access of culture where people started to have access to this stuff. People could get cheap camcorders and all that kind of stuff and could make their own video mixtapes. And that's the very early birth of a sort of democratization. of film, of visual moving imagery. And that's where we're at today in many ways.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:And, and again, Richard, like I think, remember it was, uh, not only did they create an ecosystem, they actually created a universe, that universe where you had product, you had event, you had a community. It was just 360 approach. And, and I think everyone started saying the term. So if you were on the, obviously, and one was already a term that was used in basketball courts and stuff like that. So. They really like really rode on to that and then they just escalated and then obviously a game came out of it. They had a TV show, they were touring around the world. Obviously the downfall apparently was from what I heard from the documentary was, the management and stuff like that, um, all were burnt and the designers, they just didn't have enough bandwidth.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:real people versus superstar athletes. And you mentioned there about one route is if you're looking at, uh, brand building is to get a famous face or get a load of famous people, film them doing stuff, there is a different vibe here. This, there is something different happening here. Cause it's, it's again, or it's aiming at authenticity. It's trying to get to real people in real situations and looking at a sort of street culture. And trying to tap into that and trying to reflect that. And I, I, I can see, you know, now today, banks and building societies do this and insurance companies, they're, they're all trying to sort of evoke versions of this what are they playing against, do you think? Cause I mean, in my head, I'm thinking, okay, there's Instagram world, which is fake and phony and full of people's supposed best lives on, on show. Advertising is, was always seen as. It's a, it's a conceit that people are, very familiar with in terms of, okay, I'm being sold here. The TV stuff has stopped and now I'm being sold something. I'm now online. There's an ad that's popped up. It's selling me something. Brands or some brands are trying to get beyond that basic. relationship. And this feels like a way of doing it. It's very unfashionable to be seen to be selling something now.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:No, I think I, I obviously, I think you can still sell, I don't think there's nothing wrong with that because if it has benefits and I need something, I'm going to buy it because it helps me get, give me value or provide something for it, but I think most, I'm not saying most brands, I think the most important thing, it goes back to the point, someone has to have clarity and vision within that company and be like organization, this is where we're going, who can help us achieve that, And I think then you can come up with different ways and stuff, and maybe street or the community angle is that way. Sometimes it doesn't have to be. And I think it all depends on the brand, but going back to the community side of things, Yes, it's effective. Yes, it is genuine. But at the same time, they have to realize the key behind is consistency. You can't come and go like a normal brand activation. They have to remember that you, it's a long lost, it's like a relationship. So I think they have, it's very critical to remind themselves that you can't, because I think it might do more damage when you come in and go and say you're doing community
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:I'm interested in this piece in particular because obviously the quality is terrible, like you know, as it would be in that era. The sound is awful, but there's, there's a lack of, of, you know, Effectiveness of the people like it's it's pre that nowadays if you do anything, you know that somebody's filming it somewhere. It doesn't matter what you do. Somebody is, you know, filming it and everybody's very aware that cameras are watching them all the time. But this stuff seems to exist in the time where people weren't so camera conscious and whether it's is that the thing that gives it a sort of greater authenticity that it's it's a snapshot almost.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Uh, I think, I hear it Sam, and I think the thing that gives it that, it allowed young people, gave them an opportunity to be part of something. So this is a massive, disconnected group, and this is the same problem young people are having. They're so disconnected from big governments, big organisations, and sport in general now. Sport in general, is not sport anymore. It's a big business. So a lot of these young people, they feel disconnected and they want to be part of something that speaks for them. And I think that's what that movement from that brand allowed it to be where you could see yourself in it and a normal person can actually rise to the top. Whereas with Premier League and all these things, it's just a very distant memory. The only time you can see yourself in it, if you play FIFA or the FC 25, the game. So you can't really get involved and be, be part of the narrative. Unless you're the chosen one. And I think that was the difference between that and something someone said, uh, I don't know, I watched on YouTube, it was a magician. He said, it doesn't matter if your production is one pound or a million pounds, if you have failed to connect with the hearts of the people. You have failed your job. So, and I think that's, what's happening. I think a lot of, uh, organizations and brands, especially marketing people, they are hiding behind polished stuff, but people, it's not the polish they are after, it's the connection they are after, who can provide that with their storytelling, with the narrative, with the meaning, right? You know, as they say, everyone's looking for some sort of meaning. So who can provide that, right? And be genuine about it. If they want to make sales, they can be
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:Well, I was going to say that actually, the, the, to Simon's point there about when everything is being filmed, when we're, when cameras are so ubiquitous, we're all performing to an extent, you know, you've only got to see,, People, you know, when they start taking photos for Be Real or Instagram, there is a different persona that they're putting on. They're pulling faces that are, you know, and then they go back to their normal self. As soon as you put a camera on people, it changes what is being filmed and. I'm wondering if there is a reaction to that because this feels, this feels influential. The reason I find this interesting is that I hadn't seen it before. I think actually, well, yeah, there's a, it feels like this is where a lot of the, the tone of voice and the visual grammar of, a lot of marketing, even today. Comes from, they're, they're trying to tap in and trying to, to do this, tell this story. What about Cortes? What's happening there?
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:So I picked that particular piece of work, the creative work. The reason that works is because it kind of captured all the things that his particular audience likes, or that demographics is into, but then at the same time is speaking. on behalf of people that want to be seen with these sort of things, right? So I think, he knows his audience. so well.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:And we should say who he is.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Clint's the founder. His name's Clint. I don't know his last name. Clint's the founder, and he's been building it. So, I mean, a lot of the things, you got to remember the Everyone wants to recreate that, but they don't realize that he's been building this foundation for years. So the reason things work because he's got an audience who will cheer him on, celebrate and support in anything he does. And the audience size has grown now. So now people think, Oh my God, that's successful. That's great. We want that. But they don't, they don't understand the reason it works because he's built a loyal, Organic, authentic audience that actually said, you know what? We like what you do, but the brands in the other space would be, it's more like they're trying to buy that quickly. And they, that's why it's best for them to partner up and, um, do a collaboration rather than be a standalone, because. They will easily get caught out or found out and stuff that it doesn't really feel natural. And hence the rise of collaborations. You've probably seen unbelievable collaborations happening and that no one thought these things would happen, but that's, I think that's probably the reason why, because they know if they do that, it's not going to come across well, but why don't we partner up and they both benefit.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:difference between this, this, this pursue this idea of collaboration what I can see the benefit. And what are the risks? What's, when does it work? What's the difference between a good one and a
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Well, the very worst ones, uh, are just a badging exercise, aren't they? Where you can clearly see that no one's had a hand in it and I think back to the early days of, uh, Kate Moss's collection at Topshop, which was, you know, bordered on, I mean, as far as I know, she had very little to do with it, you know, so I think that that sort of collaboration has been around for a very long time. I think one of the things is that It has become very, very quick and cheap to produce media. And if you go back to the old days of kind of the world of ads and all that kind of stuff, let's go and do a three week shoot in South Africa or something. You know, that was a very expensive way to make media that's become very disposable now. So that's like a high risk way. Whereas a low risk way is to make small, lots more smaller media and do lots of collaboration. And therefore some of it will stick and undoubtedly some of it won't. And the best of it absolutely resonates with two audiences and brings them together under one banner. And that's brilliant. The worst of it feels awkward and contrived and, and, and messy. But I think, I think that's the nature, it's the nature of the fact of how quickly we, media has become disposable. That's one of the reasons why making quick, Smaller content and lots more of it has become a better thing to do. And the natural place there is to actually like go where it's less about our vision and more about being in lots of different places at once I feel, but that's just my gut reaction to it.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:I think that trance, the, the, the expectation of a sort of transference of, of projected values on from one brand to another. I think I can see that and I can see that actually it's a bit of a high wire act if you are the cool one versus the my, from, um, the smaller brand is that you're being seen as, okay, this is about
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:weirdly, the world of collaborations now regularly features in. in brand guidelines. So they go, it's a thing that never used to exist, but now it's a kind of like when we do guidelines, we do this and the X is this big and crashes into the other person's logo and you go, is this what we've become? So that collaborations now are such a default that how we how we brand them has become defined in brand guidelines. Strange times.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:a, there's there's a question. I guess it's interesting your choices because I think obviously I know you from the last your work at, you know, with about street football and this feels very personal for you. It feels very, you know, these campaigns feel like they've played a role. I looked at that and one mixtape and I thought, Oh yeah, okay. I can see a line there between what Gundeet's been doing these last few years that there's, is, Am
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:It obviously, I'm definitely inspired by An1 for sure, Joga Benito, all these sort of campaigns, a hundred percent. They definitely laid the foundation. And as you can see, obviously you say, which three pieces of work you like, and now there's a, obviously I like lots of different campaigns, but I wanted to pick these things because they kind of resonated. More with me. I mean, there were other campaigns like run like a girl and those sort of things, but then I said, which ones really moved the needle in terms of sport and in terms of creativity? But yeah, 100 percent they do resonate, and kind of challenge your thinking
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:I think that a lot of this stuff has been driven by creator culture, hasn't it? And that actually, that goes right back to your And1 stuff, which was kind of like creator culture back, you know, pre all the access to media we have now. It's the bigger brands that have kind of had to play catch up on that creator culture and go, actually, it's not about you, it's about the people who have genuine fans at a street level that kind of, that, you know, that drive the culture forward. And so the bigger brands, I think, have had to play catch up with startups to kind of go, you know, and you think of things that have grown enormously over the past few years. Palace, for example, something like that. It's completely driven by creator culture, you know, that kind of world of, of creators. So that's very interesting. I think there's an interesting thing as well about this that it it sort of feels a bit now, now looking, I mean, I love this, right? I loved it. We've talked about it before. I think it's a great piece of work. I really love it. It sort of feels a bit like early Vice magazine now, weirdly. It's kind of like, it's like a video form of early Vice magazine, strangely.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:And you know, it is Simon, you know, it is, I think the world is such a constraint place. It always wants you to adhere, to obey and laws and stuff. So I think this sort of young generation, um, as you, any, as I say, any young person, they just want a place to express themselves. I think if you look at the, at the core of all these things across all sports, street sports, it's that one thing that's very common. It allows these group of people to express themselves where you're not going to be judged. You know, I mean, you might be judged on the streets when you're playing, but where you can literally be yourself and not have to follow or be told what to do. And I think that's what these group of people are looking for. Say, you know what, this is who I am. This is what I'm about and this is what I'm going to do for this, rather than be told all the time, do this, follow this,
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:it in a brand context, but Also it's, this is a really big topic for, you know, Cause each sport has now its own sort of pyramid of sport led creators. So, and it gets to the value of the classic brand ambassador. You know, you, you get a famous face, a footballer or a golfer or whatever the player, give them a load of money, put them on the front of your advertising, they then become the poster of your brand. And it's a sort of shorthand to try and break through the sort of apathy because that Now, Now that is being challenged and it's being really challenged by the, because a better, you know, a lot of brands are saying, well, why are we paying that footballer, that golfer, that tennis player? Actually, we should just go with the creators, them the budget we say, That's a better route audience now. There's the creative route, but there's also just the technical route of the, you know, this is the channel that which they're on. This is where they're authentic. If we come crashing in with our classic brand advertising, it's going to look so out of step that
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah, so I'm going to, I'm going to answer that Rich. There's two things here. So I agree and I disagree as well. I'm going to address something completely different than I'm comfortable with. One of the things I think nowadays, if you look at most of the work and stuff, it's so polished. It's so polished and it's so safe that we're so immune to it. Like we did, like I said, in the message, in the chat, I was like, we just turn off, right? We just switch off and it doesn't really connect because. Maybe before when we didn't have much choice, you could tell us what to do, but now we've got so much choice, they have to think a bit different and they have to connect with it. And back to your point about the football players or these big players, I think it's a fine balance. I think you can't just go heavy on creators or heavy on football. I think it has to be a balance because yes, you need the reach, but you also need the credibility because I can reach a million people, but they're not going to. agree or they're not going to listen, you know what I mean? it's a fine balance because sometimes working with all these creators, they don't really stand for something depending who they are. Then it makes your brand look even worse to more people now, you know?
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:You still have to bear in mind a kind of mass market as well as Tribes, as it were, you know, there's kind of, there's, there's pockets of people that have authenticity and, and believe in the thing, but then you've also got a, somewhere down the line, you've got to stick a big name football player for the mass market, who literally don't know enough about the niche context. I'll put this into a context that my son recently did this big graffiti festival, massive graffiti festival, and he was Only 11 and he's spraying at it. It's just people, people walking up all day and there's some amazing artists there. They're walking up all day and they're going to him. Oh, how old are you? 11. Oh, you'll be the next Banksy. And it's like, none of them want to be Banksy. They're all like, you know, Banksy's a stencil artist. It's not what we want to be. We want to write, we want to write graffiti, you know. It's just, but that's their, that's their only point of contact with the, they want to go and see all the nice, there's some great walls and they want to go and see it all. And there's some amazing artists there that are really well known within the community. But to them, it's just all, it's all measured by Banksy. It's kind of like, it's like how they, you know, measure everything by
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Ronaldo or something. Yeah.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:The brand has to know who they want to speak to. You can't speak to everyone with the same thing. It's very rare, like someone like Taylor Swift moment and stuff. Those are, it's difficult to recreate that sort of stuff. Unless it's even, you could spend a lot of money and you might not even get the result. So I think. It's very important for the brand to know who they want to talk to and then you speak their lingo that they understand or the language they want to do. I think that's more important to actually be like, okay, these are the people who want to speak or we want to target whatever it is. Then you kind of speak up because right now we create one thing. We're trying to target everyone with it. Even you, Simon, you, Richard, we all, we don't like everything, do we?
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah. I was going to say the same thing. So most things, there's some things I like, but most things I don't. Yeah.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:has a particular taste and like being able to say that everyone likes everything, it just doesn't work. It's a waste of everyone's time. And you, they probably end up hating you more because you keep feeding them the same thing again and again.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:Okay, let's go to, is it jogger,
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:I say joga,
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:whenever I see a sort of, you know, a word that is in English, I it. I, you know, my, my incompetence will somehow see me through. I like, I like the effort that I make of overpronouncing it. It, the, um, croissant. It's like when, uh, I was listening to Stanley Tucci who overpronounces Italian food fantastically well, it's just, it's, uh, I don't know a croissant is an Italian food,
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:always just like to try and do it without any consonants at all. Just go, trying
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:yeah,
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:And obviously, I think it's the track, right? Like, if you just play this track,
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:you can hear it. It's
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:ground. Yeah. Very
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:just, I don't know, it just catch. I don't know who did create, so I actually spoke to the creative, who worked on, uh, Jogo Bonito. Man, it was just, like, I spoke to the creative and they said they had so many other ideas. But they decided to go with this one and they were working on it for a very long time and they're back and forth on it as well. And I think, you know, Homegrounds, one of the founders, Rashid, you know, Homegrounds agency. I think he's a creative founder, Rashid, he also worked on Joga Bonito.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:So there's a, it's, it's, it's, become, it's almost like people reference it. And again, it's all, it's, this is getting on and it's almost sort of a Mount Rushmore if you talk about sport and creative, people reference it all the time. And again, it's sort of of the moment. And there's a question about where Nike are now compared to where they were then and the, and the sort of type of brand that they appear to be. And it was, it was there coming into football in a very
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:man, you know, they just captured the culture, the hearts and the minds. And obviously Brazil team was probably, probably at their peak, you're the best players. I don't know. And then obviously this whole concept and I think everyone was probably tired of the boring football and they're really, really played into what the public kind of wanted as well. And they wanted this new thing, but no one was brave enough to speak. So I think there's bravery in their work and And they challenged that through creativity and obviously Cantona speaking so bravely and they had big fighters like Ronaldinho and all these sort of people behind it just. And then also it was not just one thing. It was so many different activations, but they all led to one thing and that allowed this whole thing to seem bigger. I remember they done a final where the finals was at Trafalgar Square and all these sort of thing. They created a specially heavy ball, the Jogo Bonita ball. It bounced less. It was like futsal but a bit different. So it was so much thinking that actually I feel like went behind it. I'm sure the team was big and I'm sure this is just in the beginning of YouTube. So the, the budgets must be crazy that behind it. So I don't think brands spend like that anymore, to be honest. So, but look at, look at the return though Richard, like, like a lot of young people who are in football, even the young ones that are coming up in the late scenes or comment. They will still remember this, and Jogo Bonito still gets used a lot, and people are recreating it, even Cortez, you look at it, the advert, they recreate that moment with Phil Foden, where Ronaldinho hits a crossbar, because that was, uh, that's the first time anyone's seen someone do something like that, even though it's probably CGI. But it just blended that sort of thing. So I think Diogo Benito wins. It's probably got to be the best football campaign. I must say there are amazing football adverts out there. You know, the switch when Ronaldo, when Ronaldo becomes a kid and he becomes an English kid in Manchester. Yeah, and the Manchester kid goes, becomes Ronaldo. It's crazy. So there's great adverts, but I think as a campaign, as a creative piece of work, I think Diogo Benito has to be up there because it just captured everyone's hearts and
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:I sometimes wonder when I look at this, Simon, I wonder there is, with the big, footwear, Nike, Adidas, Pumas of this world, there's culture and performance is, and I don't know if it's a continuum or whatever, but I can imagine that there would be a body of opinion within Nike that says, Hang on a minute. We need a performance story here. Whereas this, this, and I know it's in there, but it felt like this is them going after culture in a, in a significant way. And that's been the position. I'm interested in that relationship.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:I mean, I, I, so I think over the years, I think you would have always said that Nike attempted to position itself within the culture rather than be about performance as a rule, because it's always kind of like, we are part of a broader thing, a broader culture within society than we are about the specifics of our, how our stuff works. And Adidas would have occupied that performance thing. It's very German, kind of engineered, kind of like, and Adidas has tried to step, you know, I remember this campaign about sort of, 2016 17, which was very collaged adidas, kind of very cut up collage kind of campaign. It was almost like Cortez in some ways. It was trying to be a bit like that. But I think they've always strayed towards that. And I would say Nike has always tried to stay in the culture. Even, I would say actually that this time, For the Olympics that the, the Nike ad, which was all about am I, I'm, I'm a bad person or can't remember what I'm evil or I'm a bad person. Something like that. Was, was actually slightly less than that and was possibly slightly more kind of performance kind of athlete, kind of driven, which felt like a sort of slightly. It felt like a bit like a PNG ad in some ways, you know, a kind of, but, uh, but I would say as a rule, Nike have always tried to stay in that culture. I think it's a very interesting line you can draw from and one through this, then into Cortez, which kind of go, which kind of sees an evolution of a kind of, Handmade kind of authentic kind of part of the culture kind of look and feel whether I don't know whether you could still, you know, to go back to my earlier point, I don't know whether you could still make that today as an ad, because it would be, you could make it as proper content that was interesting and documentary and all that kind of stuff. Of course you could, but whether you could make it as an ad, I don't know whether that's still, whether that's still something you could do.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:and also Richard as well. I think a lot of brands, they always go for what's popular, whereas if they did a bit of research and a bit of work, they'll find out there's more other things they can amplify, and they probably get a higher return than going for what's already popular, because then it seems like, Oh, you just jumped on another thing, you know, so a lot of the brand marketers, they, they don't, they always want to go with whoever's got the views. And then the notion in the community would be. If you want to work with a brand, you have to be famous, you know, so then it goes back. It takes away from the thing you have to make something meaningful is that no, I have to make something that's famous, you know, so, and I think they should work with people beyond fame, you know, and I'm sure they probably say that they would, but
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Well, This This in some ways goes to the point that, and I can't remember the name of the guy that's always doing talks that used to be at Ogilvy, used to be head of innovation at Ogilvy, who always said that line, which nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. You know, it's an old phrase, but you can still see it, which is that if you went with the safe route, then no one could, no one could fire you if it then went wrong because you've been safe. And there's been lots of creative now, but Within agencies is driven by data, but data people come along and go, this is trending. This is popular. There's X million people that like this. We should make something like this rather than going what let's define. Let's you know, let's not blow with the wind. Let's let's make the wind, you know, and and I think it's dangerous.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Yeah.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:We're going to make the wind. It's really dangerous because you might be wrong. And, uh, whereas if you're wrong about the stuff that's trending, well, you just followed the trends, nobody, you know, And that's, so that's the danger. I think
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:yeah. And I agree. And I think one of the other things as well, Richard, is that a lot of times the agencies will look at stuff and they really like it and they want to make it, but instead of making it themselves, why don't they reach out to the person who actually made it and get him involved rather than, and that's when people be like, you're trying to steal my idea or whatever it is. If you really like something and you said, you know what? We love this. Just contact that person who made it and collaborate or get him on as a consultant, whatever it is. So rather than say, you know what, uh, John, I'm going to just give this to you, uh, to, so you could commission to 10 other agencies. Uh, can you please give me the same thing? Bro, just go to that person if you
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:I think that's very true. This series, I'm really interested in the sort of provenance of ideas. And I think, because good ones build on others. They don't just copy and rip them off. so what I like about. What we've talked about is exactly that, you know, and so we've probably done it in the wrong order. We should have started with or put the, Cortez at the end. I'm always looking at what are things a response to and. I think that, you know, and again, these are now historical artifacts, some of these ads, you know, they're not, they're not sort current, but we can still see them in the way in which the media is presented. And I do think there's a bit of me that wonders whether or not there will be a, a cut against it, or whether that? is happening. Already.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:When you say cut against it, what do you mean by
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:there is so much of this stuff that I, you know, when I see again, whether it's on TikTok, whether it's on YouTube, whether it's a piece of advertising dressed up as culture, that actually a lot of it is, is, again, it's, it's deeply unfashionable to be sort of seen as, as just nakedly selling. This is what, this is the product I've got, you know, I'm going to sell it to you now. The old American car salesman idea. Now there's a bit of me wonders actually, whether people, that's what they might respond to. They might actually respond to more honest.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:Ron seal.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:exactly. It feels a more honest transaction sometimes, because sometimes, I'm seeing, versions of product placement, and there is a sort of brand in there somewhere. There's an assumption that people who, if they understand the story that's being told will get to that. The rest of us won't. It will be too obscure. But there's a, there's an element here of actually how straightforward is it? Are you being
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:I mean, most of the times when general consumer will come across, Someone's piece of work. I'm sure everyone wants to tell a story behind it, but also they probably got marketing campaigns, which are very direct as well, probably happening in the background. We don't know because the algorithms decided to just serve us the story part cause that's what I think we probably connect with. Some probably brands probably have those 360 campaigns where they've got the marketing direct to you as well. Uh, everyone's, everyone is different, but I think nowadays you can't just do One thing you will have to do a 360, uh, approach and which can be very hard, but I guess if you're a startup, then you have to focus on what really helps you drive, you get your business or brand goals or whatever it is. Because I think as a startup, you can't just focus on brand because brand takes a long time to build. You've got to bring some revenue in as well. So it's got to be a balance.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:right?
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:One last thing as well, Richard, I think a lot of these agencies, if they want to be authentic and stuff, they should work with the creators who are already doing these sort of things. Bring them as part of your journey. Don't just say, look, I like this and I want to make it. That will help them. They might bring more collaborations and more ideas. I know sometimes it can be a bit more work, but those are the works that win and get noticed and they cut through the noise. So I think it's very important to. To collaborate, not just with the famous people that are trending, as Simon said, it's like, that's risky because you don't know which algorithm could just change tomorrow and it could be trending the
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:totally.
richard_2_09-16-2024_111607:Brilliant. Okay. Well, we got there. Thank you very much for doing this. Simon as ever. Thank you for your time.
squadcaster-8344_1_09-16-2024_111607:You're welcome, mate.
squadcaster-ejg0_1_09-16-2024_111607:Cheers. Thank you So much, Richard.