UP434 Expected Goals Takeover

A special bonus episode of Expected Goals, Unofficial Partner's sister podcast on the women's football business, with co-hosts Maggie Murphy and Matt Cutler. 
Joining them is Polly Bancroft, CEO of Grimsby Town FC, who was formerly head of women's football at Manchester United and lists Brighton and Hove Albion, Nottingham Forest and UEFA on an extensive resume.

Expected Goals is published every Wednesday. Search in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favourite podcast app. 

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Transcript

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Hello, Richard Gillis here from the unofficial partner podcast. Welcome. Today, there's something a bit different. We've handed over the channel to our sister publication expected goals, where we overthink the business of women's football with with Matt Cutler and Maggie Murphy. And today Maggie and Matt have a special guest. Polly Bancroft, chief executive officer of Grimsby town football club. If you're interested in more expected goals, it's published on Wednesday every week, you get it in the usual places where you find unofficial partner, you also find expected goals via apple, Spotify, or just tap expected goals into your. Favorite. Podcast app. Expected Goals. Overthinking the business of women's Football. Welcome to Expected Goals. Thanks guys. Yeah, privileged to be the first guest. So, uh, yeah, thanks for having me. You were on my list straight away. I was like, Matt, we need to get Polly on because, uh, of Polly's wide experience in lots of parts of the game. I said to Matt before you joined us that there's nothing you haven't done in football. Uh, yeah, yeah, fairly accurate, I think. But, uh, yeah, hopefully all adds for good experiences. Polly's currently CEO of Grimsby Town, uh, whose men's team are in League 2 and whose women's team play regionally in the sixth tier at the moment. Pre Grimsby, Polly spent several years heading up women's club football at the highest level including Man United and Brighton. And even before that, you know, Maggie says she's done it all, she spent just under a decade helping national associations across Europe develop strategies. For women's football, both at UWAFER and at the English FA. And I'm guessing that means you and Maggie have crossed over, spent lots of time together over the years. Is that fair to say? Yeah, that's right. I think we probably spent most time together when I was at Brighton and Maggie was at Lewis, um, but then involved in various conversations about the future of the women's game, uh, with Maggie sitting on the board for the WSL and the championship. So yeah, really constructive conversations to help shape the future of the game, I found that for me to be at the time General Manager at Lewis in the championship and you heading up women's football at Brighton, you came in while I'd already just started at Brighton and I found it so helpful to have you always at the end of a phone call. So, um, to be really clear, like I said, really admire and trust Polly and Polly's views. So she was someone that I'd always go and talk to. And I'll always remember this Polly, um, being sat in a meeting around the legacy of the Euros with our County Football Association, who were so keen to figure out how to do that. Generate fans, post Euros, and grow the game and, um, and they were so keen on helping brighten with attracting fans. And in that meeting, multiple times you said, and Lewis, and Lewis, and Lewis. And I just thought it was really powerful because even the response then was a little bit like, Oh, well, you know, if we have to support Lewis, then we have to support all the clubs. And you were saying our county is so, Should be so proud of the fact that we have two top tier clubs in our county and, and I'll just always remember it was, it was a very difficult meeting for me to be in to be saying Anne Lewis, Anne Lewis, because that's what I was doing all the time. So for having you doing that on my behalf was always something that I'll always remember as, you know, evidence of someone that wants to grow the whole game and not just the top. Thanks Maggie. I'd forgotten about that, but, uh, maybe just reflecting back, you're right. The county is so large that for me, it didn't make much sense if there were. Young girls and boys or fans out Lewis's way should be engaging with their local club or be in the championship rather than the WSL. I mean, frankly, they could go to both. But I think at the time it didn't make much sense to me that we were trying to put all of the eggs in perhaps a Brighton basket when you've got two top flight clubs within a stone's throw on the south coast. I think there was also a project we worked on, were we with the Girl Guides? Oh yes, yeah, the Girl Guides were fab. They just, I don't know whether you got to meet any of those. contingencies, but you had like 50 super powerful, I'm going to use a phrase I hate, but boss girls, like just like coming along to play football and kind of, yeah, it was really cool. I like the girl guides. Anyway, Matt, sorry, we're reminiscing now. No, no, that's good. That's good. Rivals collaborating on the, on the South Coast. I love it. Well, because we have Polly with us, we're going to break the format slightly for expected goals and we're only going to be tackling listener questions. Uh, this week and we've had loads through as ever. So thank you for continually sending those through, but it means we're gonna be talking about how far off clubs are from player trading being a significant and viable revenue stream. If women's football now warrants technology like VAR or if it's an investment that could be used better elsewhere, we're going to be talking about whether clubs in the championship really don't want to get promoted to the WSL. We've had some people quoting on that again quite recently. And lastly, a real hot topic at the moment in football, just generally about the football regulator in the UK, which is probably coming soon and how that will impact women's football. And if not, Whether that's a good or a bad thing and maybe some more if we, uh, if we have time, but let's get stuck into it. So our first question is an amalgamation of a couple of questions we've received. Including from Laurie Youngson, Greg Mailer and others on player transfers and it's this. So with women's football closing in on the first million pound player transfer, how far off are we from player trading now becoming a viable revenue stream? And just a bit of context before we get into that. So a FIFA study this year showed that clubs collectively spent 5. 2 million pounds on transfers in the summer window just gone, which is basically due to September. Uh, and that was double 2023, which in itself was a record. About a third of that money, it's estimated, is spent by WSL clubs. And yeah, it's only a matter of time, we think, before the first million pound transfer comes, and the rumours were that Arsenal tried to sign Kieran Walsh from Barcelona for a fee that was nearly a million pounds. Close to a million pounds. I'm going to hand it over to you, Maggie, before we ask Polly a question on this. Is that, is that context right? Did I miss anything? Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, to be super clear, it's obvious, number one, that player sales and purchases, are rising significantly year on year. Number two, the fees in general remaining quite low. Um, there are obviously some that raise eyebrows, but in general, they're still relatively low. And then the third area to dig into really is this, are the future focus clubs incorporating that as a potential growth area into their business strategies? When you look at the growth To start with, I mean, Liverpool broke a club record this summer. I think they purchased a player for 200, 000. And then in the championship, even if you drop down, there's rumors that London City spent six figures on a player. And then the salaries for a number of their players are now, um, at WSL level and a healthy WSL level, so that's very much breaking the championship records. Um, if true, um, but we're in that FIFA study, something that I thought was really interesting was that they looked at, I think there's about 1100, just a little bit more 1100 transfers, but more than 90 percent were still player transfers on a, on a free at the end of their contract. So actually you're only looking at 10 percent that are commanding that level of wealth. The rest are moving because their contracts are short because they're free to go after their one year, two year contract. Um, so yeah, it's still, um. It's like a nascent area, I guess. It's only just beginning. So I think those are the kind of things we want to dig into a little bit with Polly's help. Yeah, definitely. Well, question to you, Polly. So a club's actively doing this already from your experience. Obviously, you spent time at Brighton, which is famous, at least on the men's side, at least for being one of these clubs who, you know, Finds these, these gems of players and sells'em on. Yeah, I think in terms of it being a viable revenue stream, I think we're still a way off. As you said, the, the majority of transfers are still free with players running down their contract, and I think that FIFA study is skewed some way with the transfer of players between winter and summer leagues. So I know there's a big migration between America and Australia with essentially players playing around the clock, but playing in two leagues, um, consecutively. So, yeah, there's some added context to that study to be aware of. I think as well players are still on quite short contracts, a couple of years. which means that they're more likely to run down their contracts and become a free agent. Um, in the past that might be because clubs are uncertain about what their position in the league, you know, particularly for clubs perhaps at the bottom of the WSL or top of the championship, not wanting to sign longer term contracts because they're not entirely sure which league they might be playing in and how much to invest in players. I think we've seen more salon clauses. Some buyout clauses, so some mechanisms within contracts to help clubs, um, benefit from, from player trading. Um, on the flip side, that can be a challenging precedence to set. It can also provide an opportunity to perhaps sign a player that you might not already or ordinarily have the ability to sign. But the inclusion of a buyout clause means that, um, You're open to that player moving on should, um, another club come in for them at the right price. In terms of banking on it as a revenue stream, it's a risky one, um, because you're not guaranteed a payoff. But yeah, I'd say still, in terms of a revenue stream, still in its infancy, really. One thing that I find interesting is About the transfer. Obviously, you're looking at player sales and player purchases and for me, the thing that I keep on coming back to when I hear the numbers being raised is, is that enough to cover your academy for a year? Because at the moment, I think that's, that's one of the pieces of this jigsaw, isn't it? Like, you want to be able to sell the talent that you're creating yourself because essentially you want To make a profit off the hard work that you've put in when it's relatively cheap to put that hard work in compared to later on. And I think that that's, When I hear the fees, like the 200, 000 for Liverpool, that doesn't cover their academy for a year, um, well, sorry, and that's a purchase in any case, so they're spending that on top of their academy. I wonder whether that's a little bit of a benchmark. Can a club get to the point where they're able to sell talent, um, at the level that it funds their academy? For a year? Well, I think with the new training compensation model, or I think it's actually called a training recognition model, because it doesn't fully compensate a club for the development of a player, uh, for the time that she's been in the academy. That's the first attempt at introducing a model similar to the men's. Again, very much in its infancy, doesn't really cover the full costs of player development, but is a move in absence of a FIFA and global training compensation model. There's a, an attempt to do in a domestic mechanism, obviously that that's challenging if an international player, an international club comes in for a domestically trained player. So it, it's, it's not foolproof, but it's an effort to protect the investment that does go into youth players. And any transfer domestically. Again, I would say slightly risky model in terms of putting all of your eggs into that basket, because it, because the model doesn't yet fully compensate the time and effort that you go into developing players. We also know that to develop one or two players, you still need a full squad of 20 and the cost to support all of the other teammates. So, yeah, again, and I think the broader point here is that actually the costs and particularly wage inflation is significantly outstripping the speed of revenue generation. That's the broadest point here. Costs, particularly on wages and salaries and transfer fees are growing exponentially. But the revenue just isn't, there's a gap and a lag. It's, I mean, Bristol City launched their club strategy just last week. And they were very, very clear that the cornerstone of their strategy going forward was to have the best, I think, 18 to 21 year old players, um, Knowing that probably by the time they hit 21, they're hitting full stride and they won't be able to keep them necessarily at Bristol, whether they're in the WSL or whether they're in the championship. And it's quite a bold strategy to say this is, this is, this is what we're going to do. Um, I guess what, what you're saying is there's two ways to be compensated. You sell that player, for example, if they're going to play overseas, um, or domestically, and if they're sold domestically, There's also a payment that they get as recognition for the amount of time they've spent in that academy. So that's the two ways that Bristol would be banking on trying to get back some of the money that they're going to be investing into having what they want to have as the best possible training environment for their players. I really like the Bristol strategy, you know, excellent transparency around their aims, what they're trying to do. I particularly like some of the themes in there around the services that they want to offer to players, female athlete health. Consideration for the environment. So I think they're doing a huge amount that's the right thing to do and that they're not taking any shortcuts that said, again, that might come with costs of player housing, host families, if they really want to get the best young players. from the UK or the Southwest. There were probably going to be further expenses on top of your usual costs of coaches, training facilities, and the services that surround elite player development. So, yeah, I think that they've got some really good opportunities and I really like the strategic thinking that they've gotten and why not, you know, you have to find your own niche and your, your ability to compete with some of the bigger brands. So it'll be interesting to follow them and see how they go. On the wage and transfer increases. So on one hand, that makes me think, okay, it's great that women's football and women's players are finally being recognized in terms of like, transfer value and frankly, wage increases being paid for what they're worth. But I guess there's some, is there hesitancy, worries around kind of sustainability and I'm guessing, we've seen this in lots of other sports before, the rising wage costs in particular could create more of a competitive imbalance, right? So it's the, the bigger teams who can afford it getting the best, best players. Have I summed that up right? Is that kind of, is that a tension that I guess is going to have to be addressed at some stage in the future? Absolutely. And I think that's a key challenge for the new. Women's Super League to make sure that the global brands aren't steaming away and really that there's a competitive league and that clubs continue to invest. Uh, strategically and in a sensible way and some of the mistakes of the men's game aren't just replicated, um, but with a, with a smaller number of clubs and bigger gaps between them. I think this is a good, this is a Grimsby, Polly. There's really interesting news over the last couple of weeks and Jason has been talking very openly about working with, Jamestown Analytics. So for you may know Jamestown, we may not know Jamestown because they're famously behind the scenes, but they're the kind of the analytics company behind working with lots of clubs around identifying particular kind of like gem players for this precise reason, right? To get them into the team, have an impact for the team, and then maybe in two or three years, sell them on a bigger fee. Can you tell us a bit about that, the kind of like how that came about and also I'm really interested to know, is that going to impact you on the women's side of the club as well? Yeah. So the use of Jamestown data is a terrific opportunity for us. Um, as you mentioned there, well, they're involved with, with a few other clubs across Europe who have seen excellent success in talent identification. Player recruitment to bolster the squad and really looking at that undervalued player. And they've, because of their, their models and their analytics, they've got, their reach is far greater than a human, um, you know, from a player recruitment. Um, department can, can reach. So a fantastic opportunity for us. So we're, we're in the very early stages of that. We've, we've used it to some effect this summer window, but we're looking forward to the fruits of the future windows. At the moment, the analytics is just available on the men's side and just men's first team. So not for the, the boys academy. Um, so on the women's team player recruitment is available. Initially local and then regional, but we've done a huge amount on the women's team, as you'd expect with, uh, with my interest in it, um, in a short space of time. So the team got relegated from tier five to tier six last season, but we're really keen to bounce back at the first opportunity. We've, Increased training from one to two times a week. They've got free gym memberships at the same gym that the men use. And so a big shout out to Oasis Gym, uh, who have, uh, donated very kindly their gym memberships. Um, they've got names on the backs of their shirts for the first time. We're providing transport to away fixtures. They've got a physio, we're providing psychology support. Um, and all of these things that, as I mentioned in the Bristol strategy, the services to women's players are for me as important as paying or, or some expenses. And I think, you know, we'll continue to develop that, but that for me is the, the difference really in terms of recruitment is to show what you can offer the player, not just in terms of, fixtures and matches and which league we're playing in, but what are we doing to support the players longer term rather than just, yeah, come to play for Grimsby Town because we're the only professional team in the town. Actually, this is what we're doing to support you and your own development. You know, we have a coach that's really driven by player development and helping players to get better. On that note, we're going to take a quick break. Welcome back. Right, we're going to get stuck into our second question here. Uh, this is a question from an anonymous. Thank you, anonymous. Um, they said, do you want, do you think VAR and or goal line technology should be introduced to women's football? Clearly everyone wants the best decisions to be made, but is it the best use of money at a time when growing the game? It's paramount. And again, a bit of context here, last week at the Chelsea Tottenham game, the Chelsea manager Sonia Bonpasteur, she said, it is available in the men's game. Oh, I should say this was after Hannah Hampton saved it on the line and it was over, it wasn't over. Yeah, it was given, I think. It was given, okay, but maybe it shouldn't have been given. Um, but anyway, Sonia said, when the technology is available for the men's game, why shouldn't this be the case for the women's game? If we want to look more professional, I think we need to move forward with it. And these are round numbers. I think it costs about a quarter of a million quid to install Goldline technology at a round. And VAR is about 10, 000 a game. VAR being lots of cameras and referees in the, in a box somewhere. Is this money that should be spent to make sure the decisions are getting right, being made right and put it on a, on a level with lots of other sports? Or is it money that perhaps should be spent? Yeah, I think those costs that you just mentioned are frightening in comparison to the other, you know, services or costs that we're looking to, or areas that we're looking to develop the game. I think if the technology is readily available in the stadium, for example, in the Emirates or the Etihad or Old Trafford or, um, Birmingham City or, you know, the clubs that are playing in main stadia frequently, if the, if the technology is already set up, already exists, then I think it's worth more of a consideration than if it doesn't. And then you need to pay those installation costs. That said, if it's. It's a league game and you've got it for the home leg, but not the away leg. I guess both teams would need to agree in advance to its use. But I think, you know, essentially we're looking at match officials. Um, so potentially more investment into the match officials as they are, whether that's to take them from part time to semi professional or semi professional to fully professional, you know, investment in there. Mentoring, analysis of their performance, their fitness, I think that's probably more where I'd lean to in terms of investment in match officials holistically, rather than jumping to technology and as we've seen in the men's game, it's not perfect. It's still open to human interpretation and error. So sometimes maybe be careful what you wish for. Um, but yeah, I wouldn't necessarily jump to VAR and goal line just yet. Is this something that's been, has that been discussed in kind of rooms that either of you two have? There was a moment a couple of years ago where a game was called off and it felt, or it was positioned to be quite embarrassing that the game was called off and Emma Hayes at Chelsea complained and said, you know, we need to have unsaw heating for all women's games. And I think it's kind of similar to that, where Just thinking, is that really what we're going for when we actually know that we really are still at quite, yeah, a nascent area. When I was on the boards at WSL and Championship level, um, VAR did come up from time to time. There's always little incidents that make people question it. Um, but it was accepted that, you know, full VAR was too costly. There was a conversation, I remember, about VAR Lite. Um, and that is something that you have at games when there's VAR. It's fewer than eight cameras. It's usually, I think, four to eight cameras. So normally a big Premier League game will have double that number of cameras. So you have a VAR light, it's a lot cheaper. I think it's being rolled out in Wales now, but it's the Welsh FA that have decided at, you know, in top tier men's football. It's the Welsh FA that's decided to invest into that. It doesn't have things like the offside capacity, um, And the EFL have been discussing it, I think, for many years, and I don't think they've made a proper commitment to move forward, but it's definitely something that's, that's been discussed. But I think always, uh, when we were talking about this at board level, it always came back to what you said, Polly, about refereeing and supporting the referees to be able to, uh, to be as good as they could be at their job. At that time, there wasn't a single professional women's referee in the country. And I think now I've heard that there's around about 50 percent of the referees doing WSL games are now full time. And that immediately has an impact and much as we might be frustrated by, you know, one or two calls, I think it's, it's really, it's a real, Strong indicator of progress that the referees are starting to go full time and that's replicated in their own fitness and their own ability to take on some of these harsh judgment calls. So, yeah, I feel relatively comfortable with where we are. I think for Sonia Bompastor to raise it, I think it's healthy to raise it. So I think this just continues the conversation because it allows us to go, actually, let's get the medical side done. Let's get the refereeing. And then in the future, that's when VAR is going to be a priority, but just not yet. This certainly parallels with League 2 men's football as well. And I actually wonder whether with the EFL with more of the 72 clubs being on Sky this year, And with more broadcasting in the women's game as well, whether that forces the hand somewhat, perhaps if you're picked for a main event match on Sky, and again, you're in a main stadium, or if you're in a ground that has that infrastructure, that might be the tipping point, perhaps that VAR or goal line technology becomes present if it's a TV selected game. Um, but yeah, certainly the parallels in terms of professionalism of referees. Huge amount of parallel between, yeah, Men's League 2 and WSL, um, for increased desire to support the referees in their professionalism. I've not heard of that VAR light before. It does sound like the kind of thing someone would have told me as a joke and I'd have taken that. Well, I remember it, Maggie, you're absolutely right. I can't remember the costs or exactly what it was, but that there was a more budget version. I think that FIFA have introduced it for nations as well that maybe don't always have that many cameras. So I think it is meant to be a nod to the fact that the very top of football in England, for example, has already peeled away so far from, uh, national level football in so many other countries. So breaking news, I've got some information on it. So this is how it works. Apparently it can be, it's portable. It can be set up in minutes, includes key features of a regular VAR system, such as touchscreen, multi angle display mounting and controllers. And it can intervene in four situations. Goals and offences leading to a goal, penalty decisions and offences leading up to a penalty. Direct red car incidents and mistaken identity. So actually that seems quite similar to, I don't know, I watch a lot of Premier League football, so very similar to that. Maybe we'll be seeing this at a game near you. Anyway, that's great. So we had another question come in. Um, this time it's from Lucy Lucas and she said, I was interested to see a comment from Tom Gary. Tom is the, uh, women's football writer at the Guardian. He's doing some excellent work. And the Guardian just generally doing some excellent work covering the women's game. I saw a comment from Tom Gary that some championship sides don't want to get promoted due to the costs involved. Can that really be true? Well, I looked up the piece and Tom was specifically referencing an interview with the Charlton chief exec Charlie Methven on a podcast where he said, and I quote, 80 to 90 percent of the chief executives in the championship would not want to win promotion to the WSL because of the costs that would be associated with it. I see it just simply repeating all the same mistakes. As the men's games, but probably twice as bad. Maggie, I'm gonna come to you first on this one. Can that really be true that clubs wouldn't want to get promoted? I think that there is, um, a head and a heart in. And what he's saying and in, in, and in how, you know, people running championship clubs are feeling. Uh, we would have done anything to have been promoted because it's not, it's not, I, you know, at Lewis, we didn't think about women's football just in terms of financial costs. It's a, it's a real challenge, but I also think this comes down to whether a club sees its women's team as something they want to have or something they have to have. And I think that's ultimately what is going through some of those chief execs minds when they're looking at promotion or relegation. I mean, the baseline facts are that you have a trebling of central revenue once you get promoted. So at the moment, the distribution split between the WS and the championship for things like the TV money is a 75 25 split. Um, so immediately right from the beginning, you'll treble some of those central revenue. And at the moment, that central revenue makes up a good chunk of a lot of championship clubs incoming. So I think that there is a feeling that, uh, once you're there, you get that, uh, Centralized investment. There's also a lot better opportunities. Once you then go and talk to sponsors and partners, it's a lot easier to sell if you're going to be on Sky, if you're going to be on BBC, if you have that level of visibility and people are talking about the game. So things like your shirt front should be able to be sold at a much higher level than if you're in the championship. The challenge is this whole piece on spiraling Spiraling costs without spiraling revenue. Um, and I think that the fact is that a lot of the big clubs now are putting in significant amounts of money without, without being as generative. And therefore it doesn't matter if you've got a central, if the central revenue is being troubled. It doesn't matter if suddenly you're doubling your sponsorship. It's still not enough to cover. But I think that's, That's also similar in the championship. It's, it's kind of where we're seeing women's football at the moment because there has not been as much of a focus as I would have wanted on that. revenue generating piece. The big thing for me and the big question that remains unanswered is cost controls and whether and how the WPLL are going to introduce cost controls, whether the clubs can actually agree on what those cost controls could be. Um, how can a club say, Um, you know, Man United, um, when Polly was there and Lewis when I was there, how can those two clubs agree on things like cost controls when we probably both have quite differing views on, on what, what that would entail. Cost controls was something that was discussed at length throughout the process to, to, to take women's football outside of the FA, but I haven't seen that much discussion of it in the, in the last six months. Um, Externally, I'm sure there are probably conversations internally, but I think those cost controls, whether it's don't need to, I think people are quite allergic to them around salary caps and player salaries because they feel that we shouldn't be impeding a player's, Uh, right or ability to earn. Uh, and of course there's competition with the NWSL and with other leagues that maybe don't have those salary caps, but I don't think that that's the only element to look at when it comes to cost controls. Yeah. What do you think on that Polly? I mean, could the, would the logic work in reverse as well, where say a Man United or a Brighton would be thinking, Oh, Maybe if we get relegated this season, it'll be fine. It'd be fine. Our costs will go down. Uh, I mean, I can't comment on an individual club's ambitions, but Maggie's absolutely right. And I don't think there are any clubs that are breaking even, let alone making a profit. So then it ultimately comes down to each individual's club's ambition to how much they want to invest into the women's game. There are instances where you can break even. I've had match days, both here at Grimsby Town that have made a profit. I've had match days at Old Trafford and Leigh Sports Village that have made a profit. So there are opportunities to generate revenue, but as Maggie said, the costs are increasing exponentially and the revenues aren't matching that yet. Losses will probably be greater in the WSL than the championship due to player wages. Um, so whilst there is that 75 percent um, revenue attributed to the WSL clubs, output and outgoings will be higher. I think collectively there are opportunities to reduce the losses, but that needs all of the clubs. WSL and championship to come together. So whether that's the, um, giving of rights to the central WPLL, so centrally or selling rights centrally, you know, even whether that was front of shirt or, um, sleeve or shorts, rather than each individual club, Trying to generate revenue from individual assets. So it requires a different amount of thinking, which is why it's taking the WPLL and NUCO so much time to get a collective view, um, on the new structure of the league. And I do have concerns. I think when you've got Clubs who are inherently want to win and are focused on their own ambitions. It's very difficult to bring those collective views together. We've just seen it with the independent regulator needing to come in on the men's side because Premier League clubs and EFL clubs can't agree on a funding mechanism. Well actually we're asking the vast majority of the same clubs to do the same thing on the women's side and really they've got their own. interests. And I'm not sure how this is going to go at the moment. You know, if there's an opportunity to do things differently now is the time, but it requires a collective, um, voice and, and commonality across those clubs. And I'm just not sure if that's viable because every club is competing against each other for trophies, for competition, for fans. But I think individually clubs can be really creative with their commercial revenue generation and thinking about different ways to diversify income. So whether that's doing a bundling and an unbundling commercial approach, obviously looking at ticket pricing strategies, building new audiences. Um, yeah, it's, it's a tricky one, but I do have concerns about the self interest that clubs. Inherently have and actually needing to come together for the collective good to drive the women's game forward in a different way to the men's game when it hasn't worked on the men's side. You know, coming back to that question around, do you want to be in the league that you're in? Do you want to be in the league above? Um, do you want to be in the league below? I think that one of the challenges that we faced at Lewis was maybe some of the license requirements that were placed on clubs often at short notice and often not. With taking a bespoke, uh, view, for example, it might be that, um, we needed six turnstiles at Lewis. We had five, we only used two, but suddenly that was the new licensure requirements that had we stayed in the championship, we would have had to have met. And, and it just felt like there's small things like that. And I'm, I'm, I'm definitely, I'm obviously taking that as an example. And there was, you know, a lot. A lot more. And I think that the license requirements can be really, really good in terms of uplifting standards when it comes to player care, um, and the training environment and, and things like that. But sometimes it felt like the license requirements were a little bit, um, picked up from maybe the men's game and applied without thinking about women's football in a unique way. I guess from some clubs perspective, sometimes it can be hard to be told where you need to spend your money when you want to spend it somewhere else. And I'd love to see kind of bespoke action plan, action plans for each club. You know, maybe it's a five year infrastructure strategy that they're going to chip away at, which is not necessarily, which might be ultimately linked to license criteria, but gives you some time to focus on what you think is important. And that might be a way of. Allowing you to focus on the growth of your unique and distinctive and different football club. Um, without thinking, well, if we get promoted to the WSL, I, we can't operate there because we don't have six turnstiles. And I'm again, exaggerating, but it's, it's that I think sometimes we're a little bit too framework driven. And I think that in women's football, we're trying to create something unique and special and we could probably do that a little bit better. Maggie, you've, you've said previously on this podcast that you love a bit of governance. If, if, so if a championship team did get promoted, it's within their rights to say, we don't want to go up. I'm not sure that's ever happened, right? Would that just cause a massive headache? Uh, yeah, it would, it would cause a headache. And, and to be clear, I, I do know of instances where, I've spoken to people in other clubs where they have been not nervous about winning the league. They absolutely wanted to win the league. They absolutely did. But they were nervous about whether they could apply those license criteria and whether they would have to say, look, WSL, we want to be here, but it looks like you don't want us to be here because we can't, we can't hit these targets. Um, that was definitely a live conversation with clubs that were in the top. Top few clubs, uh, last season for sure. When I remember being in the conversations in a lot of the rooms last year, when we were trying to figure out how to build this WPLL, a lot of the people in the room kind of said, we want to know what we're in for. That, that phrase of what are we in for came up time and time again. They kind of just want clarity on how much money they're spending for how long in order for it to break even. Um, what are the projections? When will we get there? How will we get there? I think there's a, there is goodwill. There is people, a number of people that are really desperate to take women's football to the next level. But, uh, you know, from their perspective, they were also having to go to their shareholders to go, no, honestly, we need a little bit more money this year and next year. And by the way, but if it's for five years, then we can talk about it. And then we've got an end goal. And I think that conversation led to the discussion around a closed league. And I'm not an advocate for it, just to be clear. But I think you could see the merits in having a closed league for a period of time to secure that investment as there is in the US, for example. The concern is then once that, whenever you decide to reopen it, You've then probably created a gulf between the top and the rest of the pyramid. That said, the WSL started as a closed league, um, when it was in the summer of right at its infancy in 2011. So it has been done before. Um, I think we're probably too far down the line now for it to go back to being a closed league. But I think that's why we started to have those conversations around, should it stay open and part of the pyramid? Yeah. And in the UK, men's rugby union. Went closed and then after it went closed, three of the teams went bust. So even, even, even that it's not necessarily the, uh, yeah, the silver bullet, some of these organizations might be looking after, um, anyway, we've led us nicely onto question four, which we've dipped in and out of without even realizing it, uh, across this podcast, but this question, but basically the question we've had the most coming in from, uh, from our audience, and it's about, well, it's about the independent regulator in the UK. It was something that the, previous government, uh, in the UK raised, then they got voted out and then it's come up again. The question is basically how impacted will women's football in the UK be by not being included in the scope of the new independent regulator for professional football, which is big news, I guess, at least for our podcast and for our audience. The sports minister, Steph Peacock, confirmed that the independent regulator, which is basically being set up to improve governance and financial stability and transparency and lots of the stuff we've been discussing here. Uh, there's no plans for it to cover women's football and I noticed Kelly Simmons, who you both, I'm sure you both know very well, she's been very vocal about it, she said she would like to have seen some commentary on the women's game as part of what the government are talking about and how that will be protected. The game is silent on it, a missed opportunity to protect the women's game. I guess, Polly, I'll come to you first on this, do you, Do you have any views on that? I'm guessing Grimsby just generally is a supporter of the UK regulator, right? I mean, one of the big things is to try and close the gulf in between the riches of the Premier League and the, and how that trickle down effect comes in. But what's your view on it? And particularly on the impact that not covering women's football might have? Yeah, I think it was a really good opportunity for the women's game to have got a slice of the broadcasting pie. Um, obviously EFL clubs have been trying to negotiate it for some time now. Yeah. And there's more similarity between the issues, um, at play and the state of the game. They're just, they are totally intertwined, the women's and the men's and the issues that are being discussed. So it's a shame. And I agree with Kelly. I think it would have been a really positive step forward. That said, I don't think it's too late, um, for positive change to happen. And we've had the Karankani report done recently, and it feels like investment along with the recommendations from the Karankani report. which need cash because there was no cash associated to Karen's report. That, that needs to be addressed and I believe Stephanie Peacock said that there will be an obligation to keep the women's game under review and that review will be kept on the table. I think there's probably still time and ultimately we need some support behind it from the government to make sure that it is implemented. So yes, a big shame, but hopefully not too late to still make positive change from a governance perspective. And I know the independent regulator did make amendments relating to EDI, which was an improvement. Um, but yeah, let's just hope that the recommendations from the Karen Carney report have some teeth, um, to make real positive change because in absence of either of those, investment in the women's game will be still dependent on individual club ambition. So obviously at Grimsby, I'm doing an awful lot for the women's program, but that's because I want to, and I believe it's the right thing. Um, so you're still then waiting for the other 92 clubs to determine their individual appetite rather than it being mandated or expected through. Covenant. You're right. There's two, two points of discussion as it relates to, to women's football or women in football. Um, and that's the EDI, DEI, I think they use the term DEI, um, can't keep up, but so women in football, the organization were lobbying quite hard on kind of diversity provisions and they had been pushing for a quota of, um, women, like female representation at board level in the Premier League. And I think some of the, the, I think it was women in sport, different organization had done some research to find that only 10 percent of Premier League boards were women. board members are women and only 5 percent of championship boards, uh, are women. And I think that's in comparison to 35 percent on FTSE 100 companies. So obviously football is behind. That's not a surprise. Everyone kind of knows that. And so they're lobbying. I think they were both keen to have targets or goals or, uh, not, not really quotas per se, but you know, let's try to shift, um, to become more representative of the communities that we represent. And they've made some progress in this. And I think it's like a half win. I think there's half celebrations, but not full celebrations. There's no targets, no quotas, but there will be the requirement to I think have action plans or to show what clubs will be doing individually on, um, Representation at, at board level. So I think it's, it's kind of a half win. It's progress. It's maybe not as much as they would have wanted. Maybe there's space to carry on pushing for those targets. And so then on the women's game, I think one of Kelly Simmons points that she makes. Quite, um, strongly is that, uh, she says, you know, the women's game is given a chance to, uh, regulate itself and yet 22 of the 24 clubs, um, in the WPLL are the very same owners that the government has decided cannot regulate themselves and require independent regulation. That was, she made that point back in May when it was stalled originally. So yeah, it's, it's a watching brief. I wonder, there's not many people commenting on it. From my perspective, you see the likes of Kelly Simmons that really feel passionately about it, but then I think there's some people that have not taken a position. Do you think Polly now is, there is space and time now for groups to come together to kind of step up the lobbying rather than go, okay, well, we know it's a watching brief. Okay. Well, clubs have to provide action plans and diversity, or do you think it's actually that that's as good as you're going to get? I, again, I come back to the self interest and I think there's so much self interest here in terms The revenue distribution from the Premier League down to the EFL and that's been the main driver here for an independent regulator to try and come in and have the backstop powers. to help negotiate on that if a deal can't be found and it hasn't been found yet between the Premier League and the EFL. That's been the main focus really of the conversations that I've been in and the lobbying that we've been involved with at Grimsby Town for the need for an independent regulator. So that money talks and again these are huge sums of money, which is why it's been the priority because I can see, because I've worked in the women's game and now men's and women's. I can see that there absolutely would have been a real opportunity here for the women's game to have been included in that independent regulator or the men's independent regular regulator as it's more accurately being called. I just hope it's not too late and I think we've got this outstanding report from Karen Carney that was bespoke to the women's game but it's just got no backing, their recommendations. So it's how now the WPLL And the government with the Karen Carney report can work together to make sure those recommendations are implemented because they were done bespoke for the women's game, so not a blended approach with the men's. I believe that there was an implementation group that, a small group of four or five people on the back of the Karen Carney report that were going to come together to try to figure out this implementation piece. So, um, it'd be good to, you know, Hear how they're engaging with the regulator, um, and also just to see what happens next in terms of implementation. Because I think that was always one of the, one of the weaknesses or one of the challenges, not weaknesses, but gaps. I guess there was no kind of follow up plan. So yeah, it would be good to see where that goes. Where that goes and, um, maybe have a, an annual point, an annual, an annual moment where we can come back and go, okay, how far have we come? Yeah. I have a feeling it's going to be more regular than that. Particularly on our podcast. This is going to come up time and time again. Um, so, so Polly, just before we wrap up, um, from a Grimsby perspective, obviously you kind of took over CEO over the summer. Is that, that's right? What's kind of most exciting you about what's going on in the club over the next, well, this season and in the kind of seasons to come? Oh, there's so much. I think, um, both men's and women's teams doing really well in their respective leagues. Um, the women played at Blundell Park, um, August, I think it was, we've got another game coming up in a couple of weeks. And again, that will, that's a key feature of the provision that we're giving to the women's game. I don't think there'll be many clubs in tier six that are supporting their women playing at the main stadium. So. Yeah, a huge amount to do both on and off the pitch with aligning both of our first teams, but they're easy things to do, whether that's in terms of how we communicate, we don't call it the first team, we call it the men's first team. Um, we're doing joint player appearances. We've now got commercial partners sponsoring our women's players for the first time. So I'm really hopeful that we'll be, we'll be closing that revenue gap on our women's team by doing just small things that make a big difference. Um, as you said, we're, we're using. The Jamestown data to recruit on the men's first team. So really excited to see how that goes over the next few transfer windows. We're also doing a huge amount in the community with our foundation. Um, so Grimsby town, the only professional club in the area, you know, we, we recognize, um, the part that we have to play as a club. We're surrounded by a huge amount of deprivation in the area. So it's a huge thing for us to do outreach work, but also to invite people that. Wouldn't ordinarily get the opportunity to come to a main stadium to watch men's or women's games. So doing a huge amount in the area. And then we're also really mindful about, um, our environmental footprint. So we're applying for B Corp accreditation, um, which looks at environmental sustainability, financial sustainability, um, and also working with our people to make sure that we've got. We've got best practice policies in place to support them, whether that's around parental leave or taking their time off and supporting them and their well being. So, yeah, we'll continue to work until we hopefully secure that accreditation. Generating commercial revenue as well. So lots of things to go up, but, uh, yeah, really enjoying it. And, uh, yeah, hoping for two exciting seasons for our first teams. I'd love to come up to the game. Let's Matt, we should go on the road show. Very welcome to Blondor Park and we do the best fish and chips in town. Okay. You heard that. If anyone would like to challenge that, then let us know, or another town thinks they've got better fish and chips. Yeah. So thank you, Polly. Thank you for being our first, uh, guest. It's been amazing to have you on and have your insights and thank you listeners for listening and thank you for your comments and questions. Uh, we're getting more and more in and we'll cover as much as we have time for. So keep those coming in. You can get them to me by email at mattson and at unofficialpartner. co. uk or any various social media platforms. Maggie, best place for you is? Yeah, just LinkedIn or Twitter. Should be relatively easy to find. Ping me a note there. And yeah, we'll get them, we'll get them on. We've got a growing list now, so it's, it's good to see them come in. We'll get through them. Um, Expected Goals is a production from Unofficial Partner, and thank you for listening. We'll see you next Wednesday. Have a great week.