Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP435 Dame Tracey Crouch: The Budget, Blame and the Football Regulator
Dame Tracey Elizabeth Anne Crouch DBE (born 24 July 1975) is a British Conservative Party politician who served as the Member of Parliament (MP) for Chatham and Aylesford from 2010 to 2024. Crouch was appointed as Minister for Sport, Civil Society and Loneliness in 2017, but resigned in 2018 due to a delay over the introduction of reduced limits on the stakes of fixed odds betting terminals.
In April 2021, Crouch was appointed to chair a review of English football following the controversy over the proposed European Super League and in response to long-standing concerns about club ownership and financial sustainability in the English game.
Following the review, in November 2021, a final report made ten strategic recommendations for the future of football clubs (PDF). The main one was for the establishment, through legislation, of an Independent Regulator for English Football (IREF).
Crouch is a qualified FA football coach and manages a youth girls' football team.[4][12] She is a keen Tottenham Hotspur fan.
She didn't stand in the 2024 General Election and is now managing director of sport at Hanover Communications.
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Hello, welcome to Unofficial Partner, the sports business podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. Today's guest is Dame Tracy crouch.
Dame Tracey Crouch:It's easy, right? mean, I've made my peace with the fact that, for everything that goes wrong now in football, it's going to be my fault. I've come to terms with that. and again, there are a lot of men out there in football who don't like the fact that a woman looked into football and came up with this conclusion.
Crouches, a conservative party politician who served as an MP for Chatham and Aylesford from 2010. To 2024, she was appointed. As minister for sport, civil society and loneliness in 2017, but resigned in 2018 due to a delay over the introduction of reduced limits on the stakes of fixed off. OBS betting terminals. In April, 2021, crouch was appointed to chair, a review of English football following the super league controversy. With a remit to look at the games, longstanding concerns about club ownership and financial sustainability in the English game. Following the review in November 21, Uh, final report, make 10 strategic recommendations for the future of football clubs. The main one was the establishment through legislation of an independent regulator for English football IRF. The IRF would among other things, oversee the financial regulation of the game and establish new owners and directors tests for clubs. The report also said that women's football should be treated with parity and have its own dedicated review. She is a qualified F a for all coach. And manages a youth girls football team and is a keen spurs fan. She didn't stand in the 2024 general election just gone past and is now managing director of sport at Hanover communications. We recorded the following conversation the day after the budget last week. Unofficial Partner is the leading podcast for the sports business. And there's a newsletter that is read by tens of thousands of people across the business of sport. If you want to, receive that every Thursday morning in your inbox. Go to Unofficial Partner dot com and sign up there.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I was thinking about you yesterday and I was wondering what it's like. The day after a budget, when your minister for sport what happens is it a thick of it type thing? Is everyone running around in absolute panic or is is it all planned? And you know what, you're going to be doing that day.
Dame Tracey Crouch:there's a bit of a combination of both to be honest with you, not quite the thick of it, but there's definitely a sort of, you know, there's pre meetings, you kind of know what's going to be in there for you your civil servants have probably seen the final wording that's going into the red book or the green book if it's a pre budget, and you've probably spoken to your stakeholders, and so it's sort of kind of, it is all organized. There is less chaos to it than perhaps looks like on the TV. But ultimately, you know, there will be some people that are disappointed by the, by any budget. And some of those might be your stakeholders if you're a minister. And you have to try and manage that at the same time.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So who are the, who are the stakeholders that you're talking about in, in sport? What would they be? I'm going to, my head goes in certain directions, but what, what would be in your mind?
Dame Tracey Crouch:anyone who's funded by government. So any of the arm's length bodies such as UK sports, Sport England, Sports Ground Safety Authority, that sort of stuff. But then within that, also their NGBs potentially any kind of funding partner like the Football Foundation, for example, or anyone that's received. A chunk of money for a particular project or scheme. So, you know, if you happen to be a sport that that particular Prime Minister likes at the time and they, that particular Prime Minister has committed a certain amount of funding to a particular project, then obviously the budget is a good opportunity to, to announce that. But then, you know, It's also a good opportunity to take it away if prime ministers have changed in that in between. So there'll be that, uh, and then also there'll be things that you don't even appreciate are related to sport. but are a consequence, business rates, for example, or plant and machinery, uh, tax reliefs all those sorts of things that really do have an impact. Then there'll be schemes within schemes, so if you're in the NHS and you're participating in some coordinated scheme with a health service provider to provide physical activity, then you have an interest in that budget. If you're in the home office supporting them in perhaps a knife or a gang crime initiative, then likewise you'll be interested in their budgets. So, you know, there's, there's a lot of different areas of sport that something as simple as a budget statement will touch.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So, I mean, it's fascinating because you then. I'm wondering, is that before the budget? Do you know the consequences of the, have you, have you done the, the modeling of what that, you know, the various strands of that before, or is it a post budget
Dame Tracey Crouch:Well, it can be both. So, If it comes with a spending review, departmental spending round, then you know that some of those negotiations and discussions happen over a significant amount of time. And what will happen is that, you know, the budget or whatever, the financial statement will announce the headline figure and then you have to then drill down into the detail with your stakeholders on those things. So it's a lot of work goes into these financial statements behind the scenes and then, you know, chance to stand up and really all the public care about is the price of petrol or a pint of beer. But, you know, ultimately end of the day, you know, there's significant consequences. You know, you take something like Department of Education, you know, a lot of people who. Listen to this podcast, we'll be right back. be interested in school PE. Well, PE doesn't fit within the sports minister's brief. It sits into the Department of Education brief and therefore, you know, you automatically look at perhaps a departmental budget cut and you think, oh, how does this impact PE? And you're actually looking at the wrong department's budget. And so, And also, you know, some of those initiatives are funded completely separately. So it's a bit of a minefield in terms of how you navigate your way around the funding projects for sports. But ultimately that's what the civil servants and ministers are there to help with.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:What was your reading of yesterday?
Dame Tracey Crouch:From a sports perspective Neutral, actually. I mean, it was fantastic that UK Sport finally got their settlement for the LA Olympics. I've sort of kind of shared their frustration behind the scenes as to how long it has taken government to announce that. It is a complex issue, but certainly When I was sports minister, we were heading into Rio and I made absolutely certain that the then Chancellor George Osborne had signed off our budget for Tokyo before, you know, the opening ceremony of Rio because I was told that basically the Olympics is effectively a giant jobs fair for performance directors and behind the scenes talent. So you want to give the security of budget for our elite performances in order, elite sports so that, you know, when they are at the games, they're focusing solely on their, their outputs. And then likewise Paris was signed off really early in the Olympic cycle. So that, you know, again, people were very minded to just concentrate on what was happening in Tokyo. So it was a bit of a frustration that LA, which is actually going to be a really expensive Olympic Games just in terms of the nuts and bolts and mind, you know, everything else behind it, but it needed to have that extra funding for UK sport and it's just been, I think, a bit of a nightmare for them to get that.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:What, why is it more expensive? So what are the nuts and
Dame Tracey Crouch:Logistics, logistics in terms of the provision and you know, so, and new sports that are currently not. potentially funded sports, you know, so things like that.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:you know, the jobs fair thing. That's really interesting. I find this world really interesting. So do you mean that the worry is that. The people that UK Sport employ will go and get jobs, or is it a place that everyone is going to go and recruit for the next cycle?
Dame Tracey Crouch:Well, it's not for me. It's not for me to shine a spotlight on that. You know, I'm not in that world. It was just, it was an interesting phrase that was said to me about need for having that early funding. But, you know, you have, if you think about it, all these excellent performance directors, you know, you have all the best nutritionists, the scientists, the coaches, the people behind, you know, the athletes all in one place at And if your funding is not set for the next, uh, funding round, but another country comes up to you and says, but ours is come and join us, you know, ultimately these people are highly, you know, Brilliant, impressive coaches, directors, what have you, you know, you, they have careers. So making sure that they have that security is an extremely important part of what the sports, what the NGBs, you know, what the UK sport does.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:You know, you say that there's been a tussle of UK Sport, you know, you were, you shared their frustrations. Is there an argument against them within, is that what the problem is, is that there's a lobby against them getting the money? Or is it just that it's just not a priority and people's heads aren't
Dame Tracey Crouch:No, I think the challenge has always been, and certainly the challenge was there when I was Minister and I doubt it's changed, is that government has a three year spending cycle, and Olympic sports have a four year one. So I think it's just as simple as trying to tally up the you know, the spending rounds. Uh, it shouldn't be something that sends everybody into a tailspin, but, you know, the, it does. Yeah. And, you know, and sometimes, you know, let's remember not everybody loves sport the way that we do and not everyone understands the business is for the value of sport or the community assets that sport brings. And so quite often have a skewed view and we'll just look at a spreadsheet of the figures as opposed to the, the outputs of the investment.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:What's the argument or the lobby against sport? Because one of the questions I've got, we're sort of looking at some of these questions and I think it starts with the premise of why it's so hard to do something good. That's a sort of idea that you, you quite often hear that when sports argument makes its way through Government. It seems oddly difficult to get, to get things done. Now you're out of it. do you know why is there, is it, I mean, I'm just wondering if there is an idea that actually, no, that this isn't, this doesn't work that the Olympics, we're not going to pay for the UK sport because we've lost the, you know, The medals inspiration argument filtering down to grassroots that doesn't work anymore. I can see an argument there. I'm just wondering if that's ever articulated or it's just in the machinery of government that goes astray.
Dame Tracey Crouch:So I think fundamentally, people within Westminster wholly understand the The importance and value of sport. And I think that most people recognize that we do have to invest in, uh, certainly our Olympic athletes, because would you want to be the Chancellor or the Prime Minister that didn't make that investment, that then subsequently led to the loss? of our position, our prominent position in the medals table. And would you then want to be the person that then gets blamed for, you know, years of declining inspiration or aspiration of young athletes, you know, so
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Well, I think there is an argument, you know, I've heard that made that we We've diverted money upwards rather than downwards. And we've put money into the performance industry has benefited hugely since the sort of, you know, as the lottery money's come in.
Dame Tracey Crouch:Good. I think, I think that's a good thing. I think it's a good thing that we are, we are at the cutting edge of performance. And I think we've maintained our position in, in the medal table in Olympics, Paralympics, Winter Olympics. Okay, maybe not Winter Olympics, but but you know, I think, I think that we are, you know, we, we, we punch above our weight in many respects in some of these things. And I, and I think that's a good thing. And I think we do inspire through. the Olympics, for a whole variety of reasons uh, the next generation. And I think you look at some of the stories that were told post Paris of people who as kids had gone, you know, seen London 2012. Uh, and wanted to be a freestyle diver or a gymnast or whatever, you know, the sorts of sports that don't get blanket coverage on TV or in our newspapers, you know, so as you do rely on the Olympic cycle and you rely on the press Broadcast that Olympic cycle and you rely on the investment in those Olympic sports in order to get people Into those positions. I mean, I would have loved to have been able to be in a position to have invested more money in 50 meter swimming pools And in fact actually one things that we were working on A lot was how can we get a 50 meter swimming pool in every single county? Because we don't have that at the moment to get more people into competitive swimming. Because actually I think there is a view and I share that view that if we become the dominant force, uh, in swimming, then we will be even higher up that middle table. You know, we really do start to take on the Americans, really challenge them properly. So, you know, I actually, you're not going to get me, you're certainly never going to see me say we should have less investment in sport and particularly elite sport. And I do think that that does in a, in a way filter down into the grassroots, but it can always be done more. It can be done better. And the challenge is how do you get that across to your colleagues, uh, in the treasury. And that's the, that's the, that's the real nub of it really.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I think that, obviously conversation. Around London 2012 and the legacy. I don't want to get into that, but the argument was that George Osborne, you mentioned him earlier, essentially hobbled it before it got going and that he took the money out the investment under the banner of austerity. And any participation legacy of London 2012 was, was never going to work.
Dame Tracey Crouch:Well we were quite lucky in sport in the department in that actually we managed to maintain a fairly good settlement. And, and actually I, I, I don't think sport forgot that. And certainly I remember being, the sports being quite grateful because there were other budgets that were, Absolutely massacred as a result of that austerity drive. I do think that we need to think about legacy in a much wider sense for London 2012. look at East London in a very different way to pre 2012. And I think, you know, some of the facilities that benefited from the London Olympics and so on. It's not perfect. And actually part of the sports strategy that I published in 2015 was to restart that legacy program. And again, that's recently been refreshed and I suspect a new government will have another look at that and see how we can drive further legacy from it. And but I don't think we have anything to be ashamed of in terms of. London 2012. I think that you can look at other Olympic venues or host cities and see a very different story. And I think on the whole, with the combination of the investment that Boris and then Sadiq Khan have put in terms of London, the redevelopment of the east end of London, the new facilities, the new, the interest in different sports that don't, as I say, have that TV coverage, I think we should be proud of that legacy.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:When you look at the governing bodies, the NGB model, and we've, you know, organized in vertical. Funding a pyramid. Is it the best compromise that, I mean, people love to knock the NGBs and they start, you know, moan about various things about them, but is it essentially you wouldn't change that structure given a clean piece of paper? I know you never get a clear piece of paper, but sometimes people say, Oh, well, if the objective is a healthier nation. Then you're putting incentives into conflict against each other and they'll compete against each other for funding. And that's not what we want as a society, etc. So I'm just wondering, but actually, I've just had this conversation about paddle and LTA, you know, they're trying to sort of, there's a, there's a bum fight there and you land on, okay, well, it's just about incentives. The LTA would just want, has seen the new thing and wants to wrap its arm around it. but is it basically that structure is the right one? Yeah. With a few tweaks or do you, are you, do you think there'll be a fundamentally different approach or is there one that you would, would have liked to have got to?
Dame Tracey Crouch:So I think NGBs are important and I think that we need to remember that many are armed with governance structures that are filled by volunteers and I think we should all be grateful for that actually. Uh, I do think that you could have efficiencies within the overall structure of NGB. So you need to have NGBs because that's how they're part of their international federations and so on, right? So, they need to exist, but you don't necessarily need to have, you know, 14 finance directors or, you know, every single NGB having a lawyer or an HR function can combine some of those into perhaps blocks of sports, urban sports being a really easy one to put together. try and sort of kind of put together. But you know, that is for them to work out. And I think if it's, the argument has to be that that is about allowing for greater investment into the sport rather than it be about efficiency savings. Because I think if you can prove that this isn't just about the treasury, taking away money, but actually it's about taking that money and making it work smarter and getting it into the, into the facilities or getting it into the investment in coaches or in, you know, increasing active participation, then I think you're going to have a much better outcome than we need to save X million pounds from the overall budget.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:obviously this is a, a business of sport conversation or a podcast. Quite often people land on pooling or aggregation. of various things. So it could be, you know, you're talking about the supply on the supply side, the services side, it's almost like the sort of local council. I was a teacher 25 years ago, and they took the accounts department and the payroll and all that, and the local council and then devolved it into the schools. And then so every school had a, you know, their own department. it feels like these things come in cycles that then the devolved structure looks extravagant and then you go back to a more centralized thing. And then around the place, there's people saying, well, we should pull audience data, we should pull ticketing, we should pull sort of media sales, all of this stuff. Do you think that that's where it's going? It feels like there's a shift that
Dame Tracey Crouch:Yeah, I mean, I quite often hear people in business saying, you know, work smart, not hard, I think. And, and, and maybe
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:what that means.
Dame Tracey Crouch:I'm not smart enough, which is why I work so hard. But but no, I, I, I do think that there is probably some merit in the argument, how you apply it into sport. And I think that, you know, people do have certain requirements from their international kind of federations as to what it is that they have within their governing bodies. And so it's how, how do you make sure you're honoring that whilst also trying to drive those efficiencies, get more money into the sport itself. And I, and, you know, certainly I hear what you say from a, from a school's perspective, you know, having devolved all that power back to schools that we then went through the academy kind of structures, which then effectively did exactly the same thing, which pulled them, you know, and, and I was kind of used to think of it more like the stationary cupboard, you know, you you have a one supplier for all the paperclips across six schools rather than having six schools with their own suppliers of paperclips, sport is a very complex ecosystem and, you know, part of that complexity is why it works, you know, why we are successful. We can always do things better. And I think even the best businesses in whatever sector recognize that they can always drive those efficiencies. The marginal gains, as somebody once famously said.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Whatever happened to him. it's very alluring. It's like when people talk about, you know, so my wife is a NHS midwife and periodically they go through what, what if they just had five drugs or what if every police car was from one supplier, the buying power on the side of the government. If that was coordinated, get to a position where I think, Oh yeah, I can, I can buy into that. I'm starting to, you know, feel that. Is that again, is that just a utopian dream that people, that, that you could have that control over the marketplace?
Dame Tracey Crouch:I think it just has to be really properly stress tested. I mean, taking it out of sort of kind of NHS or education, I remember there were reforms in the fire service where they suddenly cut the number of firemen, personnel, in each, uh, response unit, by one. And then what happened is that they then had to spend, send two response units to cover the same part. And so it's like trying to make sure that you do get that efficiency without actually breaking the system. So, I, I just think that these things, There's always talk about it. At some point somebody has to do something about it. We don't have this finite pool of money that can be put into sport regardless of the sport. And and I just think that we, if we want to have a really diverse, well, grassroots and professional sporting environment, then we have to think smart about how we continue to do that in the future. Because, you know, there are only so many, there's only so much money in, in TV rights deals. There's only so many people that are willing to sponsor. There's only so much government can plug into it. You know, so ultimately at the end of the day, there is something that, that Just has to be worked through by sports themselves.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:what were you surprised about? There's a lobbying question. I think in terms of, because again, sport as you know, sport, ink, wherever we define it. It's a sort of abstract noun and sometimes people say oh we're not very good at lobbying government.
Dame Tracey Crouch:I'm okay.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Are those people idiots or are they, you know, is that just, do you think, do you, what's it like being on that side when you are,
Dame Tracey Crouch:Being lobbied.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:the various interests being lobbied,
Dame Tracey Crouch:But it depends what they're lobbying for. I think it depends what they're lobbying for. You know, I mean, I think actually sometimes sport is very good at lobbying for what it, what it wants, what it needs. And other times what it wants and what it needs is just not achievable. So I think it's about basically having the right strategy in place. And I'm now in a world where I can help people with that, FYI.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:there you go, let's see how it works.
Dame Tracey Crouch:do feel free to get in touch. But, uh, but I, I wouldn't say sport was unsuccessful on how it's lobbying. I think it depends on what it's lobbying for. So if we dare to just tippy toe into football regulator for a
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:yeah, come on then.
Dame Tracey Crouch:The Premier League lobbying to try and stop it was perhaps misguided because it was a ball of snow that was not going to stop rolling. And so it, you know, it, it's lobbying strategy, one might say. Suggest was not right.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:How does it just, how does it, just on that there, so how do they do it? They just get, so you have a meeting one day and someone from the Premier League turns up or an agency or someone representing them. Is that how it works or is it a dinner or what? Just because obviously lobbying is one of those words that people just jump on
Dame Tracey Crouch:Just throw that there as a sort of
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:suspect
Dame Tracey Crouch:yeah, it
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:sort of things going on.
Dame Tracey Crouch:can be done in all sorts of ways. And actually, there's nothing wrong with lobbying, by the way. And I, I think that it's really important for industry to talk to governments, talk to civil servants, because some of the issues are really complex. So before I became an MP, I worked for Aviva, the insurance company, and some of the issues that we were lobbying government on were really technical issues. You know, some people listening to this podcast might understand the ins and outs of a with profits pension policy and, you know, how the long term smoothing processes of it, but actually
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:noise I'm hearing
Dame Tracey Crouch:yeah, yeah,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:can barely, I can barely make out. It's like your dog whistling.
Dame Tracey Crouch:people have just switched off. But uh, yeah
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:pension smoothing,
Dame Tracey Crouch:but
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:there's a whole series in
Dame Tracey Crouch:As it happens, the vast majority of politicians would not know about that. And likewise, you know, it is very easy to have a view about football. It's very easy to have perhaps a prejudice view based on your own experience of, of your, your like or your dislike of the sport or where your club is at a particular point in the, in the table and all that sort of stuff. But
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:We're both Spurs fans, Tracy, bear in
Dame Tracey Crouch:therefore, you know, eternal pessimists. But the, the truth is, is that there is more complexity to the sport than what happens, you know, for 90 minutes. Now, everyone listening to this podcast will know and appreciate that, but politicians don't. And it, and in fact, many politicians don't, you know, like sport, they don't understand sport, they understand the importance and the value of sport in their communities, but they won't understand the business aspects of sport, uh, they certainly won't have any idea of the regulatory, uh, aspects of sport, whether that is you know, who, who the regulator is, whether it be that football, rugby, international, You know, sports. They won't get where it gets its money from, so they won't understand TV rights deals, they won't understand commercial sponsorship, uh, and things like that. So, it's really important, really important for sport to lobby. MPs to, and government and civil servants for them to know that. Otherwise politicians just go around with blissful ignorance until they're told. And that's because politicians tend to be sort of kind of, I guess dealing with a hundred different issues all the time. And I think that's why it is essential that when there are really important things that are coming up, that people are sat down with the team. whoever it is, the sport themselves or advisors, normally it's better to have the sport themselves there to explain some of those issues.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:the football regulator, there's lots of interesting bits to it, obviously. But your place in this, I find really fascinating because it's not normally what your lot want to do. They don't want to regulate. They want to let the market free. That's the, you know, that's the whole point. And there's two questions. One, well, the question is, did you get any sort of philosophical pushback from your own party about the government meddling in football?
Dame Tracey Crouch:Only those from those that didn't understand the debate, to be honest with you. So it's quite easy to say, you know, we have an ideological opposition to regulation until you ask them, well, do you have an ideological you know, opposition to the city being regulated, or to water companies or to electricity companies or whatever, and actually, you know,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:do, don't they, most
Dame Tracey Crouch:well, no, not when their constituents lost, you know, millions of pounds in the banking crisis or, you know, whatever. So actually, I think it's, it's people not necessarily understanding the whole point of the debate. But the, but the, the fact is, is that there is also a bit of hypocrisy in that when a football club goes bust in their own constituency or, you know, a particular, or a grassroots, You know, club disappears or what have you, that they go to the minister saying something must be done, right? You need to stop this from happening. And so there's always a desire for intervention when it happens right on your doorstep and then this ideological opposition to it. from a, from a sort of kind of macro perspective. And I think genuinely the people that are saying this are people who have no idea about the long term aspects of this, of the debate.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:what was your, your main concern? You know, what was, what was driving your passion for this?
Dame Tracey Crouch:Well, I didn't start off with a passion for it in the sense that it was just something that evolved over time. You know, there, although it's, I've been accused of having a a starting position of, of being pro regulator, actually what I had a starting position 4 was that something had to be done and over time it became quite clear that that thing had to be something different to the system that is now. And and that came out of some of the stories that we were hearing from clubs and also fans where there had been issues that had come up where nobody, none of the, what would have been the seen as the regulator or the authority in charge could could deal with, you know, they would quite often get pushed from pillar to post and clubs will come in and say, well, we raised this with, for example, the EFL and the EFL said, go to the FA would say, but it's nothing to do with us, go to the EFL. And then, you know, they were just going around in this, in this kind of circle. And that's kind of what happened with Berry as well, in many respects. Or certainly that was the experience that the club. Representatives gave us. And you just end up feeling that people just didn't know where to go. And, you know, if there was an issue and that the authorities themselves hadn't really made it clear who was the authority on particular issues. And so, as time went on and as the argument evolved and the problems became a bit more obvious, The regulator was the, was the outcome and, and certainly, you know, again, when we started off, there wasn't necessarily a universal agreement on the, on the review team, on the panel that there should, and then there was certain points of evidence sessions that, you know, really convinced people that we needed one, uh, needed a regulator. So the argument definitely evolved over time, but I think once we were all on the same page, that's when it really, all the nuts and bolts and details sort of kind of started to, to write themselves.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:What do you make about the arguments that you're hobbling the Premier League and it's one of the great success stories that, Is based on money and investment and it's never been a fair, you know, finance, finance doesn't play fair and there has to be that model in place.
Dame Tracey Crouch:a lazy argument, to be honest with you, because actually we made it very clear that when we were going through the consideration process, we set out very clearly that we didn't want to do anything that damaged international competitiveness. We didn't want to do anything that damaged the reputation of the Premier League in terms of its global export value. And it wasn't going to stop, you know, Broadcasting deals. It wasn't going to stop talent coming in. It wasn't going to stop people wanting to watch the Premier League. So, it doesn't interfere with clubs in terms of attracting fans and all that sort of stuff. So, I just think it's just a bit of a lazy kind of, you know, reaction really. The Premier League had the opportunity to get involved, embrace and the, the, the fan ad review and they took the decision not to do that. So, prior to the, uh, uh, to it all kicking off, there were certainly suggestions that whatever we came up with could help with, you know, Owners and Directors Test that could help with the real time financial monitoring of clubs, could help with improving governance and everything else. So, as you can imagine, it was a bit of a surprise when we got to the end of that to discover that all of the positive early suggestions from the Premier League were not something that they then welcomed. But I personally think that they've got their comms wrong on this. And I think that, uh, they could have had the bill done and dusted now and they could be focusing on other more pressing matters. But they chose to try and stop the bill from progressing through parliament under the last government. And now it's arguably a lot tougher, uh, with the new bill having been strengthened. So, it's, uh, it's an interesting outcome really.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:It's interesting you sort of frame it as an issue of comms? Do you think that it's actually, it's more about they don't have control of the clubs that, you know, that it's more substantive than this is a comms position
Dame Tracey Crouch:Actually, I'd say they do have control of the clubs on this. Particular issue because many of the clubs spoke to it. We spoke to all the clubs as well. Primary League, uh, or most of the clubs, I should say, uh, in the Premier League and many of the clubs, uh, privately told us that they, they supported the idea of an independent regulator because none of those clubs have actually, uh, come out and said that. So I would argue that the Premier League has really good grip of its stakeholders because they've all maintained their silence and, stayed, uh, within the, the, wider positioning of the Premier League.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:and the argument that you've laid the conditions for Super League Mark II, I know it came from, you know, the, the Super League was the sort of traumatic moment that, that was part of its genesis. But what do you think about that argument? Actually, what you've done is encouraged Or laid the conditions for the incentives for, for clubs to break away again.
Dame Tracey Crouch:Oh, I haven't heard that argument, so that's a new one on me. I, yeah, I've not heard that argument. I mean, it was the Premier League that came and asked government to intervene on the Super League. Let's always remember that and So, which is why I always found that the argument that government should be intervening on in football from the Premier League a really interesting one when they actually asked the Prime Minister to stop this from happening. Hence Boris's famous legislative bomb or whatever he said, you know, as a consequence. But, uh, no, I've not heard this This is going to cause the next Super League argument before. I'm not sure it will, by the way. I'm not quite sure how that would be the case.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Whether it happens or not, I suppose it might, they might blame this. That would be the, you know, well, that's a separate
Dame Tracey Crouch:And it's easy. It's easy, right? I mean, I've made my peace with the fact that, you know, for everything that goes wrong now in football, it's going to be my fault. I've come to terms with that. And, you know, and again, there are a lot of men out there in football who don't like the fact that a woman looked into football and came, came up with this conclusion. And, and I've come to, terms with that as well. You know, I've made peace with the fact that there is misogyny in football that one very senior person in, in football referred to the football review as a vanity project for the girl in a public forum by the way and so, you know, and I've, I've come to terms with all of that. It's like, literally, if anything happens, it will be my If a club goes bust. For whatever reason, and by the way, the football regulator is not there to stop clubs from going bust, it's not there to stop failure, it's there to try and prevent it as much as possible. But if it happens, the worst case scenario happens, it's going to be my fault. If there is ever a deal done by EFL, uh, on redistribution, and it doesn't work, it will be my fault. I've completely, you know, this is, This is just as it is, because they, football never looks at itself and comes to the conclusion that it could have done it better it will always blame someone else for its failings and, I'm just going to be that person for the rest of my life.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:That's incredible to think you've come to that position.
Dame Tracey Crouch:It's a sad position to come to, right? And let's be clear. And I may be sort of kind of laughing off and shrugging it off. But the truth is, is that, you know, when I was thinking about what the rest of my life would look like I, I had always assumed that football would play an absolute fundamental part in, in post parliamentary life. This was before I took the decision to leave parliament myself. I just always assumed that at some point in my future, I would leave parliament. I was never going to be a lifer in parliament. And I always thought football would be a fundamental part of that exit strategy. And and, and now that's not the case. And, yeah, it is the sport that I love. You know, it's probably the one I love the most. I still play it. I still watch it. I still give a Premier League club my money uh, both in season tickets and in merchandise and things like that. So, but, you know, I've just, it's just a sad reality that I'm not welcome in football anymore. And, you know, and, and that is, I do get upset about it. I'd be lying if I said I didn't, but. That's the outcome, right?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:well, it's fascinating. What, in terms of the, the job itself, what do you think the person who gets the job? Needs to make that successful.
Dame Tracey Crouch:I really hope that the person that they, uh, recruit to be the chair, and I think, by the way, there's a difference between the chair and the chief executive I think they need to have a financial background. I think that they need to have an understanding of some of the really detailed issues around capital and liquidity and, you know, solvency, but they also need to have a really good understanding of football. It's uniqueness that you can't switch a football club, that the owners are custodians, you know, that it's a completely unique. Kind of a consumer relationship, if you like you know, it's, it is a, it is an odd business and I think they have to understand that, but I think, you know, certainly for the chief executive, and I mean this kindly, I don't mean it in a derogatory way, I just think they're really boring, right? I actually don't want to see or hear it. from either the chief exec or the chair of the football regulator. I don't want them to be personalities, I don't want them to be politicians, but with a small p, you know, they're going to have to be diplomats, they're going to have to navigate their way through a minefield of, you know, different interested parties. But they just have to get on with the job and they also have to have their eye on the ball the whole time because there will be very smart lawyers out there looking for every single opportunity to try and do the regulator down. You know, it's like, again, I think there are a lot of people in football who are wishing the regulator to fail. And so they're going to have to be pretty tough person, whoever it is.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I mean, they call the England manager job impossible, but blindly that's, you know, it's, so they need power, but they're a technocrat. They need to keep their head down, but it's going to be one of the most high profile positions in the
Dame Tracey Crouch:Yeah,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:it's, it's going to be back page of the daily mail stuff, isn't it?
Dame Tracey Crouch:yeah, also I think it's really difficult because if they're seen in any kind of football environment, there's going to be questions about whether or not, you know, they're being lobbied in one particular way or another. So, actually, if you're a football fan, like a diehard season ticket holder or whatever club, you either have to accept that if you're going to be the regulator, you can no longer go and watch your club play football. Or if you do, you're going to have to recognise that someone's going to criticise that, you know, and potentially try and, you know, make it that this is somehow going to sway your, sway your, your uh, your views on things. So it's really challenging, really challenging. But there's definitely, there are people out there that can do this, not me, I have no interest.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Was the question, but I know I've talked to you in the past and you, you sort of laughed when I've asked you that question. So
Dame Tracey Crouch:no, actually the reason why I, I just think it would look really contrived, right? I think it would look like I'd come along, been asked to look at the future of football, come up with the idea of football regulator, and then become the regulator. It would just look like I'd created my own career path. And so, no, that's.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:fascinating. Right. Let's, the women's game. And the WSL and the growth of that, we've just come off the back of a Sky announcement and the media rights and give me a sort of perspective on, it's not so much a regulator question, but it's just the sort of its relationship to the politics of football. because again, there are various lobbies again, wanting to stand aside, be completely separate. And then there's others that say, no, it's got to benefit from as part of the men's game. Where do you sit? What's, because it's, it's a difficult balance sometimes, some arguments, I
Dame Tracey Crouch:it's really difficult. And actually I, I can see both sides of the argument. But what we decided in the football review was for there to be a separate review into the game because we didn't, we, we were receiving evidence which again was mixed. There was no single kind of, you know, position of travel on it. You know, some people were given evidence saying that women's clubs need to completely disassociate themselves with men's clubs and sort of kind of plow their own furrow and, and get the sponsorship and start again. And even though that would be two steps back in the, you know, future, it would be, you know, really make it, make sure it's very different. And then there were others that say, no, we absolutely have to remain within the wider, uh, ecosystem so that we can continue to drive that investment, have that coordinated approach to things. So that's why we, we, decided to, to separate it from the football review and make the football review solely focused on the men's game. And in part, because actually that's where the sustainability issue was really focused. And, you know, it was the men's game that effectively triggered the football review, you know, the demise of Barry, the super league, big picture, all that sort of stuff. That, and so. That's why we chose our focus. Karen Carney did her excellent review and there have been many recommendations that have come out of that. The legislation that is being set up for the football regulator it can in the future bring the women's game into the scope. of the regulator. It's not, it's not closed to women's football in the future. But there is an argument, and I think it's probably one that is stronger at the moment, that actually women's football is not yet in the place to be in that scope of the regulator. Does it want to be in the scope of the regulator with all of the significant sort of kind of challenges and pressures that that would put on the women's game. So, you know, I think that I mean, I'm watching with interest how, how the women's game is going to evolve. I think it's really interesting and it's, it's creating great opportunities for the sport. It's really important that the sport also doesn't make the same mistakes as the men's game. Bye. chasing success through huge investment into talent that is not sustainable, that sort of stuff, you know, it's, it's got to be something that happens over time. Uh, so that it doesn't end up in a very similar situation to what's happened in men's game. I want to see the end result as much as anyone, you know, I can't wait to see women's football on the same sort of kind of level as, as men's football getting, you know, proper. competitive prices and structures and everything else. But ultimately we're not there yet. And I think, you know, it, it needs to evolve over time to, to get that.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Does it need to be closed off for a period of time? What do you think about
Dame Tracey Crouch:What do you mean by closed off?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:you know, an American style league, I'm talking about Super League, but there is a, and I'm going to say that in its period now to protect it or to grow it or to create the environment, which we all want, you know, the trajectory of it to fulfill its potential, et cetera, that actually removing promotion relegation for a period of time They'd be able to sort of encourage investment, get Stadia built quicker, get money in because you're securiting, the investment in the same way as NBA does and the American model. Instinctively, I'm hating that. When people are presenting the argument to me, I think, okay, I can see for a, you know, I don't even know if it's possible for a shorter period of time to do it. And I know this will really annoy the people at WSL. And I know that, maggie Murphy is runs our, you know, with, with Matt Cutlow does our expected goals, our women, business of women's football podcast. We'll hate this. She always tells me to shut up when I start talking about it, but there's a bit of me that wonders actually that might be advantageous for her in a short period of time.
Dame Tracey Crouch:Well, I mean, I'm not going to go up against Maggie to be honest.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:No, I wouldn't either. I wouldn't.
Dame Tracey Crouch:I think it's, the thing is, is that in sport, sport is a weird thing, right? Because you can make the intellectual case for it. Umm, but ultimately at the end of the day, how often are we driven by the intellectual argument versus you know, how much more powerful is the The Hart argument and ultimately at the end of the day, you know, that's just not our style. We're not America. You know, how very dare you even suggest that we automate. But we're not America. You know, we, we, we strike we, we understand the importance and value of competition with all that that brings. And it's really important. And when I'm trying to teach my son the value of losing as much as winning, and yet he sees no consequence of it from a sport where there is no competition. You know, relegation and how does that tally? So, you know, I kind of sit there and I think, I understand why we need to get more investment into the game, but is the right way forward to effectively completely alter the competitive aspect of football? So I'm with Maggie on this.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah. Well, that's not a bad shout. You know, when in doubt I don't, there's a, there's a betting question I had. I, cause I've, I've just come back from Monaco and, and Sportel and that's where the, obviously, as you know, the TV sports. Industry meets and betting is sort of, is sort of off stage slightly and because it's euphemized as, engagement and whatever. And I just wonder, given your background and your, you know, your stance on it, what you think in terms of the relationship between let's, you know, it could be just as simple as, you know, the sponsorship of. Shirts in the Premier League being too high. There's that argument, but then that's not what it's all about, because, as you know, it's about much more about closer convergence of the betting industry into media. And actually it, you know, we're, we're not far off betting companies and insert various parts of Europe and the world, they are bidding for rights. And so essentially you're, getting a complete convergence of media and gambling companies. just share my your position on it now, because obviously your sort of, stance against betting, but just in general,
Dame Tracey Crouch:I mean, first of all, I didn't have a stance against betting. I took a stance against fixed odd betting terminals, which is the casino content machines that are in bookmakers on your high streets that could effectively take a hundred pounds from you in 20 seconds. So, you know, that, that was the policy. I'm not anti betting. I, I gamble myself, not often, but I will go and put money on spurs. Or you know, or an international match or, tournaments.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:would that be defined as a mug punter? People put money on spurs.
Dame Tracey Crouch:Possibly comment. But, you know, so I, I bet I'm not anti, I'm not anti gambling. What I, Do worry about is the sort of kind of, it's, it's creep it's it's unseen, influence. The the sort of kind of everywhere sort of aspect of gambling. And I think the challenge is that it's probably too late to do anything about it. There are things that you can do to tame it slightly, but I think the beast is already out in the wild and I just don't think that it's ever going to change. I know, I've spoken to chief execs of football clubs before, and I've sort of kind of almost begged them to not gambling adverts on, on sleeves or on their hoardings around pitches. And we're talking at lower league football here, not, not sort of kind of Premier League. And they will say to you in a quite a pained response, I would love to not have gambling adverts. They may well even then tell you a story about somebody in their life who has succumbed to a gambling addiction, but they will also tell you that they pay more than anybody else. And ultimately, at the end of day, when I'm sitting here trying to say we have to make football clubs as sustainable as possible you can't then argue that they can't take the biggest source of their revenue. Now you can argue Is that right? and people will have different views on that. But ultimately, you know, that's, that's the business world that they now operate in. I think some of the changes that we did make when I was minister was that sort of kind of highly pressurized betting aspect, you know, Bet now kind of thing where you suddenly felt that if you didn't put your bet on that particular rod right now you were going to lose out instantly and then you lost anyway. You know that, that we changed some of that but you know people like a bet on their, their football team. They like to know, you know, who's going to be the biggest, you know, it's going to get the golden boot at the end of a tournament, that sort of stuff.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I mean, I, I sort of revealed my age and, and lack of sophistication when I start talking about convergence of television, actually, what we're talking about is, the relationship between this conversation and sort of iPhone addiction and social media addiction in terms of the scroll. And the way in which gaming is being sort of put at the center of the experience. And I think, as you say, it's out there. And the beast is out there. And actually it's a question far beyond, a sports minister's brief, or even a, you know, I don't know how individual governments do much about that because you, you're fighting the biggest companies in the world there.
Dame Tracey Crouch:it's a philosophical, it's a philosophical debate in many respects. I mean, I think the it is everywhere, right? And, and, leagues are sponsored by betting companies, uh, podcasts are sponsored by betting companies, yeah. It's, uh, and, it's a much bigger part of our life than when we were growing up, right? It's a much bigger part of our life where the only bet that you could place in a bookmakers was on a, horse race. And that has changed. Now there are arguments as to whether or not, therefore we should be doing different things, such as perhaps having a sports betting, uh, levy. So that every bet takes, you know, a certain percentage of that money is taken and it's reinvested back into sport, but then there are arguments about which sport gets the money and so on. So, there are different aspects to the debate and it's just not as simple. And I, I used to say, I was probably, And it was painful to say this, but, the families of addicts that I met, who, their loved ones had taken their own lives because of a, of a gambling habit, and they were questioning why we couldn't, you know, instantly stop TV gambling adverts and particularly those that bookend sports. And to sort of kind of talk through the complexity of that investment in that sport, being on TV from a gambling company and how that thing goes back into the sport. Yeah, it's really, it's a really hard conversation to have because, you know, People do get themselves into difficult situations with gambling but it is everywhere, and
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:It is. And
Dame Tracey Crouch:very sorry for those who do suffer from that,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Absolutely. And it's, it, there's a, there's a sense that sometimes I'm, you know, I'm a big fan of the Premier League, for example, put that as the caveat, but if it had behaved in the last 20 years in the same way as the IOC has behaved, you know, again, I'm criticizing the IOC for various things, That would have played a more positive role. in this issue. I think there's a sort of one of the legacies of the Premier League is the normalization of betting at a, you know, at scale. If you were choosing, if you were picking a marketing platform on which to build over the last 20, 25 years, you would get, wouldn't go too far wrong with creating the Premier League.
Dame Tracey Crouch:But I think the thing is as well, the gaming aspect that you, you talk about is a real challenge for individual clubs. Because what they're getting is they're getting people coming in and they're harvesting the data that's sent back to real time, you know, betting companies in China or wherever. And then that's, and so actually there are all sorts of different challenges. That are coming from gambling. It's not just for those that are watching it, but those that are also involved in the business of it, where their data is effectively being stolen by people that are involved in the wider global industry.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Now I completely agree with that, but that's, that's a sort of separate problem. I mean, it is a problem. It's a big problem, but it's a different problem. Problem. And I know
Dame Tracey Crouch:though, it's, it's about money.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Dame Tracey Crouch:And that's like, it's, it's, Sort of the same problem, which is that, you know, gambling is now a sort of kind of global issue. And football, the sport of football is, is almost very central to that because people are betting on the sport itself.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:If a regulator were to say, right, I, you know, if the regulator had the power to stop that or to make that sort of statement, there will be a completely different perception of it in the marketplace. It would have, it doesn't have it. That person who's coming in as the regulator doesn't have that sort of power to do anything about this issue, do
Dame Tracey Crouch:No, they? don't. The Football Regulator is not dealing with gambling. The Gambling Commission is there to talk about gambling. And the Gambling Commission can look at these things from a harmful gambling perspective. And if it were to have a view that football is, is, in and of itself, sort of, kind of, contributing significantly to gambling harm, then that may Also, the Gambling Commission is in charge of the integrity of betting. And so if there are scandals, as we know that there are, of gambling uh, or, you know, some kind of betting issues in sport, then that's the regulator for that. That's not for the, the football regulator is there to make sure that the long term sustainability of football clubs is looked after.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Right. Just to finish off. What's it like on the outside? You've got your posh new office at Hanover where what's, how has that transition been? What's, is there anything sort of surprised and delighted you?
Dame Tracey Crouch:Oh, I'm sorry. Like in the happiest place I've been for such a long time. I'm really, really enjoying life outside. People keep asking me if I miss it and the answer is no. And I sort of kind of
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:it sound like a prison though, don't you? Life outside.
Dame Tracey Crouch:life outside, well, it is an institution. So in all seriousness, it is an institution and it is something, you know, I talk about being reintegrated back into society. So, you know, you are in a very different. world when you're in Westminster. I mean, I've kind of fallen back in love with London because I've spent 14 years just in Westminster and in a very small part of Westminster. And now I'm walking around, you know, Borough Market and along the South Bank, and it's just completely different. And so I'm very much enjoying it. I'm, I, I'm always one to try with self improvement, so I'm learning new things all the time. I've got a I'm a very young but very experienced and engaged team who are teaching me about Gen Z influences that I've never heard of. Uh, I'm making a fool of myself on a regular occasion. Like, you know, they were talking about somebody called George Clark and I was like, are you talking about the man who did the stuff on sheds, and they were like, no. So he's apparently a really famous Gen Z, Gen Z influencer. So, you know, I'm really enjoying it. And there's pressure, but it's a different type of pressure. You know, I'm busy, but it's a different busy. Uh, and so, yeah, it's good. It's good. And I'm, you know, bringing in new clients and engaging, you know, with new sports. So it's fun.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:It's funny as you describe that world though, that, you know, Westminster world, you sort of think, well, It's really weird to want to go. Well, did normal people end up there and do they thrive in that environment? And I'm defining you as a normal person, by the way, that, that, and that is a, that is a compliment
Dame Tracey Crouch:Well, they do, right? And, and actually people do thrive and don't get me wrong. I had 14 wonderful years. I have some very fond memories. I achieved some, I think, some Good things in my time, but it was time to move on. I don't look back in with a sense of regret about things. And I'm very happy doing what I'm doing at Hanover. But normal people can and should. Go into Parliament because actually if normal people don't go into Parliament, then you end up with a whole bunch of people who perhaps shouldn't be running the country being in Parliament. So, you know, we have to have people going in with a a set of diverse backgrounds. And, you know, some of my best friends in Parliament came from not just, by the way, my own party of people across the house you know, with bus drivers or brickies or carpenters or teachers or nurses, you know, these are all ordinary people with ordinary lives and ordinary families. And, you know, So I think it's essential that we still encourage people to go into Parliament. It's just, I've done my time my time
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:the outside.
Dame Tracey Crouch:I think it's like school, right? When you get to the end of your A levels, you're done with education, you're finished, you're ready to move on. And that's how I felt. I'd done 14 years, I had learned everything that I was going to learn. I achieved everything I wanted to achieve. And it was, it was time to move on and be reintegrated back into society.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Brilliant. Okay. Well, listen, good luck with the new thing and thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it.
Dame Tracey Crouch:You're very welcome.