Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP443 What's Sport Selling? Ep1: Big Sugar, Big Pharma...Where's Big Sport?
This is the first episode in a series of four podcasts made in collaboration with Redtorch, the research and creative agency that’s been at the heart of Olympic sport for over 20 years, working for many of the key international federations. We’ve used Redtorch research insights several times on the podcast because they ask really good questions that seek to break the walls between the elite performance side of the industry and the participation, retail and sporting goods sectors.
The idea for this podcast came from a conversation with Jonny Murch, Redtorch CEO, about a peculiar problem, which has a several different applications. It’s about why the sports industry seems to find it so hard to get its message out to policy decision makers. This was a point reinforced in our recent conversation with Tracey Crouch, the former UK Sports Minister. She said, there is no social problem for which sport can’t provide an answer. So why then doesn’t government or other powerful groups listen? Why is sport not more central to decision making process when it comes to questions such as the health of the nation, the cost of the NHS or the obesity time bomb?
Where is sport’s voice at the top table of decision makers? Why isn’t there a more powerful and coordinated lobbying group for the sports industry, in the way there is for other industry groups, such as pharmaceuticals, Big Food, oil or automobile?
Myself and Jonny Murch are joined in this first episode by two people from a different part of the sports industry.
Celine Del Genes is Global Chief Customer Officer at Decathlon, the giant sports goods retailer.
Emma Zwiebler is a lawyer and a former Team GB professional international badminton player who is CEO of the World Federation of the Sporting Goods Industry,
Visit www.redtorch.sport to learn more or call Redtorch CEO Jonny Murch on +44 7989 514 912 for a friendly chat with one of the industry’s most respected marketers.
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Hello, welcome to Unofficial Partner, the sports business podcast. I'm Richard Gillis., This is the first episode in a series of four podcasts made in collaboration with Red Torch, the research and creative agency that's been at the heart of Olympic sport for over 20 years, working for many of the key international federations. We've used Red Torch research insights Several times on the podcast over the years because they ask really good questions that seek to break down the walls between the elite performance side of the industry and the participation, retail and sporting goods sectors. The idea for this podcast series came from a conversation I had with Johnny Merch, the CEO of Red Torch, about a peculiar problem, which has several different applications, which we want to explore over the course of the series. Um, It's about why the sports industry seems to find it so hard to get its message out to policy decision makers. This is a point reinforced in our recent conversation with Tracey Crouch, the former UK sports minister, social problem for which sport can't provide an answer. So why then doesn't government or the many other powerful groups, listen? Why is sport not more central the decision making process when it comes to bigger questions such as the health of the nation, the cost of the NHS. and the obesity time bomb. Where is sports voice at the top table of decision makers? Why isn't there a more powerful and coordinated lobbying group for the entire sports industry in the way there is for other industry groups, such as pharmaceuticals, big food, oil, or automobile? Myself and Johnny are joined in this first episode by two people different parts of the sports industry. Celine Dell Jenner's is formerly of Adidas, is global chief customer officer at Decathlon, the giant sports goods retailer. And Emma Zeebler. Who you might know as Emma Mason is a lawyer and a former Team GB professional international badminton player, who is Chief Executive Officer of the World Federation of the Sporting Goods Industry.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:It might be actually that ISPO is not a bad place to, to jump off because you've all just come back. We should set the context for the listener that you've, you're hot footed at some of it. Some of you very hot foot from Munich and ISPO. ISPO is a world that I know exists and don't really know. So just before we do any of that, I just want to introduce everyone here, say who you are, and what your day job is. Emma.
emma-zwiebler-_1_12-05-2024_153802:My name is Emmet Zwiebler. I'm the CEO at the World Federation of the Sporting Goods Industry.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:Excellent. Celine
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:Hi, uh, Celine, I'm the global chief customer officer at Decathlon.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:and Johnny.
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:Yep. Johnny Merch Chief Executive at Red Torch Research and Creative Agency.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:Excellent. And the three of you have just come back from ISPO. Emma, what is ISPO? And just give us a little glimpse, because again, as I say, it's not a world that I know, which is odd because I've been working in the sports business in inverted commas for a long time, but it is a bit of the jungle that I'm sort of, I've never really ventured into too far.
emma-zwiebler-_1_12-05-2024_153802:Yeah. So SPO Munich is probably still the largest trade show for, for our industry. So for the sporting goods industry. It's a very historic one. I think it's over 50 years old. and it used to be the place where buyers and sellers came together and did their deals for the upcoming season. So back at a time where people bought on a seasonal perspective or one time or even two times per year, Ispo was the place where retailers met with brands, brands met with suppliers, and essentially it was a whole industry gathering where the big business of the year was transacted. I think as buying and selling in the industry has It's been digitally transformed like many things in our life over the last decade, 10, 20 years. it's taken on a new format where it tends to be the place where people still gather, but perhaps the buying, the transactional aspect of it takes a lesser form. a lesser role. and I think now, certainly in the post COVID era, that digital transformation, especially, I mean, Celine, you can talk to this, especially the way in which retailers or brands interact with customers was really transformed because nobody could go to trade shows. They were shut the same way as everything else was. It's really been accelerated. And now in a couple of years post COVID, they're trialing out new formats, which is where they try to integrate it. integrate conferences on sports specific industry, specific topics in amongst the trade show. And I think that's why you ended up having the blend of me, Celine and Johnny being there. Because me representing, let's say the trade, the industry perspective, Celine, the brand retailer and Johnny there being a person that's engaging with all different parts of the sports ecosystem. So I think it's still TBD as to what it comes to in future. But certainly it's been on a bit of a journey of transformation.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:So Celine, in your current role at Decathlon, and I know you also from your days, I imagine you're, you have been a regular. At this bow.
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:I haven't been a regular, but I've been several times to Espoir. Yes. it tends to be very outdoor focused. And technology focused. And I've never worked on the pure outdoor segment, uh, in my previous life. Uh, but I used to go regularly at eSports to also see, uh, trends on innovation, trends on now sustainability. It's, it's a fantastic platform to see the evolution of our industry as well. So I've, I've, I've been, uh, several times in, in various formats.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:Johnny, I just, just to, just to round us off, compare it to what I would know as a sports business, sort of trade show, exhibition center type thing. I've just come back from Sportel. I've been to leaders. Is it the same vibe, but just different formats? Or is it a different, different
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:No, it's, it's, it's very, very different. It's very different. It's, it's like there's two different worlds of sports business existing. It's quite bizarre in that respect. I mean, our, our work over the last 10 years. It's been trying to improve lives through sport by working in the Olympic world. And, and we're, we're interested to work for any brand that wants more people to be more active more often. So I was there to speak with, you know, some of the some of the sporting goods brands and learn a little bit more about, you know, what they're doing in this space and, and it's a totally different world. It's a totally different world. And it's, it's bizarre that. I guess that's one of the reasons why we're here talking. it's bizarre that there is sort of this big disconnect between a lot of different entities operating in sport that want more people to be more active, to help more people, to lead active lives, but are yet so, so segregated in some way, it's, it's, it's quite bizarre. So no, it's a very different place.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:It is a bit weird. I have, I have, I have always thought that I get to the question. I mean, the, the improving lives through sport thing, everyone is signed up to that. No one, it's something that we can't, I think one of the focuses of this conversation is, I keep coming out to why is it so difficult? Why is sports message, is sports message getting through to governments, to the, I don't know, to the marketing community? I don't know where it, where the sticking points are. Emma, I'm just wondering from your point of view, do you agree with that? It feels like should have a bigger say. It seems like there's a lobbying. It might be a lobbying question and it might be just a sort of governments don't quite understand what it is. This might be a UK focused thing because we're always moaning that government doesn't understand sport and it should embrace it in a more fundamental way. And it should be more involved in, you know, in the, in the chain of departments which look after us from the health. Service, et cetera, et cetera. We can get into some detail, but just give me your sense of why it's so difficult.
emma-zwiebler-_1_12-05-2024_153802:I mean, I think there's, not to sound like a politician, but I think there's like multiple levels in which we need to break that question down, and I'll go with a few, and I'm sure Celine and Johnny will build on it. I mean, I think the first thing is that as a sports industry, we actually haven't accepted yet that there is a problem, right? Certain aspects of the sport and physical activity industry, however you want to describe it, talk about it. Rising levels of inactivity is a challenge and certain parts of the industry just talk about how do we engage the fan more? How do we talk to the next generation? So there's there's a bit of a disconnect in the industry around do we agree there's even a problem, right? And we would say fundamentally, yes, you know, just to talk facts for a second. So it's we're all talking from the same hymn sheet. I mean, If you look at the WHO's latest data on inactivity levels, 81 percent of the next generation, so 11 to 17 year olds, don't move their bodies enough to maintain good health. That means they're basically starting off life at a disadvantage, because as they move from youth into adulthood, they're much more likely to become unwell. to need treatment, etc, etc. And of course for sports and for our industry, that means they're much less likely to be active, much less likely to purchase sporting goods products. In the adult perspective, it's not quite at that level. It's still pretty shocking though. It's 31 percent of adults don't move their bodies enough to maintain good health. That's 1. 8 billion people globally. It's a huge problem. And we're not talking about, okay, these people don't train enough to run a marathon or they're not fit enough or good enough to be in the Olympic Games. This is 150 minutes of basic movement a week. That's what 1. 8 billion people don't do. And it's, you know, it can be achieved just by walking or cycling or, you know, gardening, whatever, whatever is your chosen form of activity. I think, first of all, those figures and those statistics are not known well enough in the industry, because if they were, they would give us that fire to coalesce around, right? So, You can always get the best response or the best opportunity to drive change when there's this fire, this issue that you all have as a common cause. And I tend to think that if we could accept that, if everybody knew it more in the sports industry, there would be a greater opportunity to align voices. That picks up on one of the other aspects that you said, Richard, that I do agree with you. I don't think sports voice or sports message around why we should be taken seriously, why we should be seen as a credible solution provider for a healthy, active future is being heard. And, you know, we've, we've. At WFSGI, so maybe just to take a step back because trade associations are not necessarily everybody's world. So we're the Global Trade Association for Sporting Goods Companies. What does that mean? It means we represent companies within the sporting goods industry, so we're a membership based organisation. We have roughly 70 percent of the sporting goods industry in membership by annual turnover. And it's our role to represent them on different issues that help encourage WFSGI. the environment that gives sustainable growth for the industry. So we have a purpose statement around, we unite and support the global sporting goods industry to ensure a healthier, more active planet for all. It's only very recently that we aligned as an industry, so we aligned as a global trade association through our board and through our membership, that tackling inactivity is our number one strategic priority. And why is it our number one strategic priority? Because that data I just talked about has suddenly started to resonate in the industry. that we need to come together to tackle this because this isn't just From our perspective, a global public health issue, of course it absolutely is, right, those figures do not present a world that is getting healthier and more active they present quite the opposite. It's also a bottom line issue for us. Not today, maybe not tomorrow. But five, 10 years down the line, that's something that's going to cause a big risk to growth in our core consumer people, people who are active. So we've started to bring the industry voice to the table in as aligned a fashion as we can do, but that is not happening consistently throughout all of sport. And Sport's an amazing industry, I've drunk the Kool Aid on it, I'm a former athlete, I've worked in sport my whole life but we are a small industry when you compare us to food and beverage, or pharmaceutical industry, or tobacco, or the automobile industry. And I've spent the last six years at WFSGI learning the ropes around how do we shape and influence policy at the international level, so with different international organizations, and one of the big takeaways I've had from that is that sport shows up approximately every six months. I can't say nowhere, but we show up so little compared to the other industries. And you can see that they make long term plays for rules, regulations, policies, support the growth of their industry, that support the distribution of their products. And in sports, we are just not there. We are not aligned enough as a community. We don't bring together, to Johnny's point, industry, rights holders, fans, and We don't bring together that group anywhere and go to these institutions, whether it's a national or regional or global level, and say, this is the best investment you will ever make. There's so much data out there around if you invest one pound, one dollar, one Japanese yen, whatever it is, it's typically a four to one return on social economic benefits. That it's not possible for someone in government who really understood that metric to not want to explore this. But we are not saying it enough. We are not saying it loudly enough, and we are certainly not saying it in a connected manner. And maybe the last thing I say, because otherwise I'll carry on in my soapbox for the rest of the podcast. It's just to give a tangible example of something that happened to me in October last year. So we took a number of our brands to the World Health Organization. We signed a new memorandum of understanding with them last year, actually, just to this point. How do we leverage the power of the industry to improve global public health through increased physical activity and sport? But this great two day session, different departments of the WHO talking to us around, OK, where can industry and public sector and public health work better together? At the end of the day, the guy from road safety turned around and, you know, I said, I'd like to say something here and I said, okay, no problem. I said, this has been a fantastic conversation. So many aligned things that we'd like to work on together. And he was like, I've been here 15 years. This is the first day I heard from the sports industry. I hear from the automobile industry week in, week out. And we have to really, it really struck me, it stayed with me. Celine, you must've heard me say this a million times, but. We have to think not only how can we align better as an industry, but also who is out there preventing our message getting through. And, you know, I'm not saying that's, you know, going to bat with the automobile industry, but we have to think we have to be much more strategic and much more professional as an industry.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:Right. There's loads there. I'm going to come back to you on that. As a Celine, I just want you to sort of build
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:Yeah, I, so a few things. I, so I can be very I can be extremely positive and I can be negative. My positive side is because we're starting to move together, we're going to create an impact. Yeah. The negative side is when I look at the government, we can't wait for them to take action. And the negative side would be that in the current political geopolitical environment we have government, most of them are more worried about rebuilding their defense than actually investing into public health. Because it generates obviously somehow business in one side, they need to protect the future, et cetera, et cetera. But what we're doing with physical activity is to protect the future. The not so positive side is. Almost every single brand would tell you they do something about it. So speaking in the name of Decathlon over the last five decades, we've provided accessible products to support practice of sport because we believe that if you do sport, you're healthier, you're happier. You're a better person for the community and for the society and that not everyone can and can afford premium products. And therefore we need to make it available for all. It's brilliant and we still believe in it and we continue to do it. But us on our own will not move the needle. Yeah. And that's the reason why Emma and I speak together. So often because we animated by the same purpose and we believe that together we are stronger and only together can we actually impact. Yeah. And for me, that's the beauty of what TMI is driving through WFSGI is getting all the brands together. The Catalan, the Nike, the Adidas, the Exics, the Under Armour, all of them, the big ones that I've named, but also the small ones, to come all together, because all together, we represent the future of us, the future of our society health, yeah, the future of some of our society jobs, and so, yeah, that's it. unless we look at it as actually we have a power if we work together, we won't make it happen. And so for me, they say a key element in that. And the other thing is, I think at the beginning of your question, you spoke about it. There's the notion about government and we speak a lot about sports. Sports is extremely intimidating. Yeah. Because the big brands. Over the past 15 20 years, I've spoken to you, and now I'm going to be a little harsh, about, just do it! Impossible is nothing! Forever faster! Like, it was always about pushing the limits, like, but gosh, if you've never done sport before, the heck do I get there? Yeah,
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:So it's performance. The performance messaging has been driving the marketing of the big, sportswear brands. Is that, is that the
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:I think the majority of the investment has been towards performance. Yes, because that's where you have your premium products. Uh, that's where you tend to have your highest margin. That's where you tend to do a hollow effect to other products. I mean, only very few brands, and the one I work for is one, goes by access. Yeah.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:Do you still believe that story? Celine, it's interesting. I've come to question that in a number of realms, but see it and we follow and we do it. That's the, you know, I go to the Olympics. I'm inspired by a generation of athletes. I will then go and do sport. It's the same with the advertising and marketing of sportswear often. the flip, which I think is what you're articulating, is that we create a sort of superhero, a halo around these incredible people, these incredible athletes. And I think, sod it, I'm, I'll have a tea and a cake, because there's no, there's no point in me even trying. I'm never going to get there.
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:Yeah. I think there's that. So if you look at the Olympics, you tend to have a spike in registration for clubs for sport post the Olympics, because the Olympics are not just about the gold medals. The Olympics are about the stories. They are about the humanity around sport. Yeah. And it's also a moment where you see a lot of sport on TV. Yeah, so there's also a visibility of sport that's enhanced for a multitude of sport. And in that case, I extract football. I extract rugby that has more TV time than maybe fencing, badminton, ping pong, whichever you want to pick. Yeah. And so I think for some people, you actually discover sports. That you usually don't see. And therefore you're like, Ooh, I'd like to try that. That looks fun.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:So you see a bump, Decathlon sees a bump after the Limplix in different disciplines.
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:Absolutely. Like after Paris Olympics, one of the category that for us rised, well, there were a few, one was skateboard. Yeah. And skateboard is a new sport into the Olympics. Two was ping pong, because especially on the French market, the French brothers did so well that we actually saw a spike. And the third one was volleyball.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:So Johnny, this is, this has got echoes of previous conversations I've had with you, and you're an expert in that Olympic world and the, and the sort of ripple around that. What's your, what's your sort of take on this bit of the conversation? Because it's interesting. It's taking, I think your job in this is to sort of almost put the two worlds together or, or just explain,
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:Yeah, try. That's really interesting, Celine. You've got that data, uh, because the, you know, the data we see sees a spike in that inspiration and intent. And actually, there's a longer tail after the Olympic Games to that. And I guess what we see, uh, and with our work is that, you know, It's, really what Celine mentioned about, uh, sports being quite scary to a lot of people. It's quite aggressive is our work is in a lot of it's in that space. A lot of Olympics or any sport is focused on that media entertainment product is focused on the elite. It's the performance piece. That's what's driven the revenue over the years. But a lot of smaller sports, uh, Realizing and struggling to generate the sort of the media revenues that the bigger sports can. So a lot of our work is actually helping these sports to actually stretch the brand of what their sport is. So it's not just the performance piece. It's actually how do people Uh, engage with it outside of a competitive environment. What's, what are the different motivations that people might engage with a sport, a wave, uh, that, that's totally separate from, I got to win. And it's in those areas that it's really, really interesting to explore and to help our clients, uh, in Olympic sport to, to expand the brand of their sports into those spaces, because that's where there's a lot more people who are a potential. Uh, participants in the sports and you know, the, the figure that that Emma mentioned earlier, there's, there's 1. 8 billion people who are, who are physically inactive at the moment, you know, that's a, that's a massive business opportunity not just for brands, but for individual sports as well, to tap into, to try and drive that growth and that this whole space is really fertile, I think, but we just got to talk about, you know, Sport in a slightly different way and, and the organizations that represent sport that govern it have got to realize that and evolve their that the, the representation of sport still obviously focus, have a big focus on the, on, on the elite performance, the world championships, but actually they've got to stretch the brand of their sport to get more people into it. Then you can take them on a journey through to actually being interested in, the competitive side.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:Emma.
emma-zwiebler-_1_12-05-2024_153802:Yeah, I wrote about, down about five different things I wanted to say. So I'm going to try and respond to what Johnny just said and said. You know, I spent some time after my, my athlete career working in an international federations, uh, council and Robbampton Federation. And I think, you know, What Johnny says is absolutely right, is that that 1. 8 billion people right now, it's, it's a threat, right? It's a threat to our industry. It's a threat to the way that sport is currently viewed and, you know, levels of participation and fandom within, within the Olympic movement and other sports, but it is also a massive opportunity. You know, 1. 8 billion, that's another China, that's another India, that's an amazing growth opportunity. As Johnny just said, 1. 8 billion. it won't work with the same approach that we've always had. And, you know, from industry side, that's why you start to see the brands trialing different things. So, you know, I actually, Isbo this week, I was on a panel session with Nike and Adidas, and they were talking about the different approaches that they are taking to try and tackle that inactive population. So Adidas has a campaign around breaking down barriers, which looks at what are the challenges to women and girls being more physically active. Nike's been exploring partnerships with different strategic organizations, whether it's Dove, looking at body confidence in women and girls. And these are all being tested because we need to understand how do we actually get to that 1. 8 billion? And I think the challenge for the Olympic movement, for IFs, for national federations, whoever it is, is that. I mean, first of all, they've had so many different tasks piled on them over the last five, ten years, right? Expectations on IFs have grown astronomically. And this is another one which is a completely different skill set to it, just to what Johnny said. And, you know, I, I'm, it requires a change in mindset, but I don't think it's just a mindset. It requires really understanding behavior change. And this comes back to what you were talking about, Celine, around legacy, around major sporting events. And I would probably and say that I don't think any major sporting event has ever fulfilled that real potential it has to deliver a sustained, and that's the critical word, a sustained increase in physical activity because, you know, Decathlon's, you're right Celine, I think many brands experience this spike post Olympic Games, but wouldn't it be wonderful for public health, for participation, and for our industry if that wasn't just a little blip a couple of months afterwards? And the challenge we have is that Behaviour change is a complex thing and I've not put myself out there as a behaviour change specialist but just the last six years working on this, you know, if you think about that example you gave, Richard, that You know, someone's inspired by the Olympic Games, right? All the factors that need to fall into place for that person, not just to participate once, but to cap, to enjoy that experience and then to be motivated enough to carry on, right? It's, it's access to facilities. It's parents, if it's a kid taking them there and being willing to invest their time. It's affordable products. It's a coach that treats them well and makes them feel included. It's teammates that make them feel happy. I mean, these are. I mean, I come with a background of chemistry and law. These are all subjective things. They're so hard to control. And going back to one of the questions you asked earlier, that's why this is so difficult. This isn't a one size fits all solution. Like behavior change is something that requires an intimate knowledge of how communities operate, how people engage with, with sport and physical activity. And I think that's, what's so worrying about trend in the next generation is I Us in sports world, if I can group us all together for a moment, we kind of felt like we understood who the sports participants were, why they engaged, and you know, we spent so much time talking about how do we engage the youth in sports through digital, etc. I'm not even convinced that the next generation is engaging in sport really in high levels at all. So how do you, you're starting from a completely different proposition with, with that next generation? Or maybe, The final thing I did want to say, which is something I think has been a big improvement around elite sports, certainly since my time. So, I was a somewhat, somewhat badminton player at some times. I never made it to an Olympic Games, but it was my career for a big part of my adult life. And when I was going through it, exactly what, like you said, Celine, you know, the advertising I was used in or the advertising we were exposed to was all, And the coaching culture and the culture in sport was all very much, I would call it classic British stiff upper lip, you know, let's not show any weakness. Let's be out there. Let's be strong. And, you know, certainly since I've retired, I've seen a real transformation in that, which actually creates an opportunity for athletes to become more inspirational again, and you know, some of it's the great storytelling that's been done by the brands in our industry, but if you take an example like Adam Peaty, right, the vulnerability that he showed, the story, the story that he can tell about how he became that person, that's much more relatable in many ways than what he actually achieved, because if you take the principle of his story, it's It's striving against adversity, it's challenging yourself, it's understanding what to do when you suddenly find yourself at rock bottom. I mean, all of us can relate to that, especially in the current climate, to be honest. So, I'm not saying that sport, elite sport, doesn't put some people off, it absolutely does, and you're right, and that's why we have to find a way to talk to the other section of the community, but I do think that's been a positive change in the way that athletes are talked about.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:I think what we'll do and this a bit of context is that we are going to then explore some of the solutions here. And I think one of the jobs of this conversation is to sort of set up some of the challenges I want to take you back a little bit in terms of that, the difficult problems and we got to the comparison of sport, which for lots of people say, right, you know, it's Nike, Adidas, Premier League, NFL. It's the biggest Brands in the world when you look at it through that lens, but it's uncoordinated. Obesity, if we just say the inactivity crisis and the obesity problem, you then get to, well, farmers, a lobby, which is famously powerful, gets to government very easily and quickly, lots of money spent in that way. Their solution is a Zempik. It's a drug based solution to that. And you can start to see that That story permeating, it's almost like, sometimes I think that Sport, people who work in sport, they don't feel like they should have to articulate their position in the same way. Because if you work for sugar or a farmer, no one's loving you from day one, and therefore you're going to have to come up with a, you know, have to sit and strategize. It's not a hope, it's a, you're gonna have to work. Celine, what do you think?
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:I love your statement because I think there's a bit of a bubble and naive attitude in sport. A lot of us are in sport one because we love sport and two because we know that sport is actually good. Yeah. And that's through what we do. We're certainly not surgeon. We're not doing all the heavy lifting yet we contribute for a better society. And I believe that a lot of us saying that because we do the right thing. Then, people should know about it, should follow it, should make it happen as well, etc, etc. So, we don't act as a knight, but we have that idea about, or the belief about doing good. But that's not enough, yeah? That's not enough. Because to your point, if you're facing lobbies that have a lot more cash, A lot more resources, not just cash, but resources investing in, invested in changing regulation and making sure that they remain top of the agenda. Emma and I, we were in a meeting where someone said, you remember Emma, if, if you're not at the table, then you're on the menu. Well, the sporting goods industry has never been on the table until now. Yeah. Well guess where we were. We've been eating alive because all the rest has happened, and so by being able to transfer and tr change that mindset and to look at the AL cost, because that's the other thing, the economy cost of not having a healthy society. Then you put those two in together and you're like, not only do we need to do good, not only do we do need to do more good, but we need to advertise it. We need to push it. We need to get more support. to make it happen, to change the dynamic we're on. Our society is going down on that specific topic. And if we wait too long, we won't be able to change the dynamic.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:It's almost like the, the, I always think of the obesity question and there's sort of echoes of climate change in terms of the urgency issue. Where you are looking at trying to coordinate people who are obsessed with and rightly, you know, we all are quarterly sales returns four times a year. I've got to go to the board and say the number is still going up and I've sold this. You've got to balance that with we need. A long term vision for, uh, you know, our business, because as we said at the beginning, this is a crisis if they're, if they're not buying stuff off us, you know, if you put it down in terms of business crude business metrics, that balance is notorious. Johnny, that is really difficult to see how you then sort of balance those two, two issues.
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:com Yeah, it's, it's a classic, uh, issue that we see all the time in sport. Sport is inherently a little bit lazy in how it markets itself because it's such an amazing product. You know, it doesn't have to, doesn't feel like it has to work super hard in order to, to have impact. And what you just mentioned there, which is absolutely true as well, which is, It's all about the next game. It's all about trying to sell, uh, as much as possible in, in, in, in the, uh, in the next month, the next quarter. And sports is not good at looking at the long term and looking at the role of brands and brand strength in influencing people and influencing decision making. Because it is just about driving that, that return every weekend, every month, every quarter. And fundamentally that creates. The long term marketing challenge because the other industries were investing as, as Emma and Selene have said, other industries were investing a lot of money in that long term piece. And it's having, having a huge, huge impact. What's quite funny is, is we're working with a lot of, a lot of brilliant organizations doing brilliant things. But when you look at the budgets that are being invested, To try and create that impact, try and create that change. And then you relate those budgets probably to what's happening in the pharma sector and just, let's say media buying in general, you know, it's, there's a massive disparity there. There's a massive disparity. There's a massive lack of understanding as to what it actually takes to get cut through to have impact to, to, to drive that, uh, drive that long term change. So yeah, sport has a challenge in that it's very short term focused. It does need to lift its head up. It does need to think longer term about uh, investing in its, its brands to how it can be more front of mind, uh, with more people to have more impact. So people make the choice to participate in it as, and when they've got that moment of decision making moments.
emma-zwiebler-_1_12-05-2024_153802:I was just going to reflect a little bit on what Johnny said and Celine, because I totally agree with both of them and what you said Richard, I mean it's the ironic fact about an industry that's based on marginal gains and performance is that we've essentially left this to chance, and we've left the future success of our industry to chance. But, I mean, If I, if I give ourselves a little bit of like, if I give ourselves a little bit of credit, right, sport has grown organically, right, you know, over the past 50, 80, 100 years because of what you just said, Johnny, right, about the fact that people people feel good. They love to watch it. They love to participate in it. You know, there is that inherent element of, of course, we're the good guys. Of course, sports is good. Of course, it is great. I think where the real challenge has come in is over the past 10, 20 years, as, you know, digital transformation has taken place across the world and people's lives have become more and more sedentary. I mean, we've essentially, with, you Internet, with mobiles, with remote working, we engineered activity out of our daily lives and that has started to have a knock on effect. And you see it in that next generation critically for the first time. I mean, the next generation is the least active in history and You know, if you think about the way how influential the family environment is, right, when someone's growing up about early positive experiences of sport, being critical to be having a long, active, healthy lifestyle, I mean, that next generation, least active in history, they're not about to suddenly raise the most active in history. So it's a problem that is going to perpetuate itself. And I think I just wanted to say that I think it's, we've got to give ourselves a little bit of like, not credit, but like, understanding as to why this has happened, and the reason it is now coming on the table is because We missed the trend as it was happening to us, so now we can see the effect already, and I think the most important thing is that we don't let this moment in time get away, because there is still time to turn it around. Excuse me, I mean, it sounds pretty horrific, these 81 percent and next generation, but we can still turn it around, but it requires this concerted, aligned effort, and it's, it's, Celine, you said it perfectly earlier, yeah. The biggest brand in our industry by a long way is Nike, followed closely by Addi, and then the rest of the industry a long way down. Even Nike and Addi combined, or our whole industry combined, is not enough to turn this around. It needs everybody you work with, Johnny, everybody I work with, all the rights holders, everybody that has a concerted interest. A business interest in sport to really come together if we're going to start being taken seriously. And, but I do think, I think on a positive note, because there's been a lot of doomsday messaging on this podcast, I genuinely believe we can do it. I mean, we're sports, right? We should be optimistic. We set ourselves a goal, right? This is a huge challenge for us. But we're the only ones that have skin in the game, right? Pharmaceutical industry doesn't care if people get more Sorry, I'm going to get a call from the equivalent of me in the pharma industry next week. But, I mean, the reality is, it doesn't damage their product lines if people get more inactive. They'll innovate, they'll iterate, they'll find something that
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:a money spinner.
emma-zwiebler-_1_12-05-2024_153802:Exactly! So it's only us that gets damaged if we don't get off the seat and do something about it.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:other bit to it is I occasionally think that actually the problem is food. The problem is sugar and sport is getting the blame and sport won't solve the problem. The obesity will, sport is not the answer to obesity. It's to do with what we're eating and how we're eating and how that has changed over 50 years. And I think that I agree with you. It might be. Part of sports sort of inherent bullishness about itself and about its impact. It, you know, I, we had Tracy Crouch on who is sports, who was sports minister in the UK and her statement was that there isn't a societal problem that sport doesn't have a. solution for, which I get and instinctively I understand, but actually I think is an over claim on behalf of sport. I, there are, you know, because it, you end up with people blaming Olympics, blaming Adidas and Nike, blaming the sports, you know, industry for obesity. And I don't think that is fair. A fair cop. I think it's part of the solution and we all agree that it's a good thing in inverted commas. I just wonder whether or not actually the problems are elsewhere I've got a question, I think, which is about you mentioned at the beginning earlier about The performance versus, participation sort of in marketing Celine, I wonder what your sort of the years of looking at marketing and studying marketing and the impact of marketing campaigns and ad campaigns and has told you about that difference and what the return is on something like, you know, performance versus Clay. Sport. I don't often get the message that sport is fun. Sport is, about happiness. It's actually about winning and competition. And I'm wondering if that's just because that's what works. That sort of messaging is what drives product.
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:that's a bloody good question. I would say if I take a step back, historically, the brands have been about mainly performance. Yeah. Nike starts with you're born to be an athlete. That's your body. You're born to be an athlete. And over the course of my career, I've heard that a lot, like everyone can be an athlete. And maybe because I can be sarcastic, I tend to say, well, Not everyone can be a Leo Messi, not everyone can be an Antoine Dupont, not everyone, like, that's not true, not at that level. Everyone can participate in sport. and, and you bring me on the territory that gives me joy. So we spoke about the fun and the joy of sport for me. That's why I see the joy and fun of marketing between end of last year and this year with my team, we had to rework the brand positioning and the brand platform of Decathlon. And the way we approached it was to say, you're not born an athlete. You're born as a kid to move and to have fun. And for us, what was totally the center of how it starts is if you put a football ball, large, small, whatever, with kids around it, they're going to play. And sports starts with play. Physical activity starts with play. And that's why I go into the performance minded brands and the, what I call access. to physical activity more than sport brands. And I think we all contribute to both. Don't get me wrong. It's just how do you position it and how do you communicate it to the audience? And for me, the ready to play, which could then be translated in various forms. Yeah. We could go into ready to perform, ready to participate, ready to eat. You could build on it, but start with play because football was a game. Yeah we did a campaign for the Olympics in French, the Olympic Games, Les Jeux, we speak about game. Game is playing, play, play, it's, it's joyful, it's playful, it's togetherness, it's good emotions. It's not the aggressivity, it's not all that. So when you put all that together, You actually open the gates for people to join, not just in the conversation, but in the activity. And that's how we transform a society. So for me, that's where marketing has a role to play. No pun intended in that case, but to really bring people together to be healthier. Let's start with that. Healthier, happier. If you're happier, everyone around you is happier. And then you are in a virtuous circle and then our society will be much better.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:Johnny, I was going to bring you in here, Johnny, because there's sort of echoes of our previous conversations in terms of relating to what the IFs do. And as they sort of try to start to redefine their roles and start to become broader or deeper organizations, you then get into that, there is that sort of dichotomy, isn't there? Between we're about winning, we're about performance, but then there's also the huge pyramid that they need and want to access. It's quite, it's, that's, that's the sort of journey that they're going to go on.
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:yeah, absolutely. I, what, what Celine, what, uh, Celine's talking about is really, and there's a fantastic campaign o over Paris. Congratulations. It is, is the, the motivations behind why people participate in sports. And fundamentally, as she's absolutely right, we all start because we enjoy it. You know, it's fun. It's great. And it makes us feel brilliant, doesn't it? And it's tapping into what, what are the motivations? That's different, different people, different audiences, uh, have to get involved in sport and I want to highlight another brand that I think is doing some great advertising at the moment, which is Asics, uh, sound mind sound body really tapping into the, the, the mental health benefits as well as physical health benefits of physical activity. And running, which resonates with so many people these days going on what Emma talked about, how society has evolved and changed over time, the pressures that we have on us, uh, ourselves these days, that their message is really rings true with a lot of people. And I don't know if there's any correlation whatsoever, but if you look at their results. At the moment, they're pretty good. They're pretty strong and they're really investing in that, that, uh, that same message consistently. It's the power of consistency that they're showing through their messaging in that one area, which is really resonating with, with audiences and bringing new people into, into physical activity. And, and that's something that international federations need to, to explore as well as what are the different motivations. That might encourage more people to think about having a go and it's not, a lot of it is not down to performance and, and wanting to win. So, yeah, understanding your audiences is something that's talked about a lot in the context of, uh, marketing and driving sales, but actually understanding audiences is massively important in the context of how do you grow and develop your brand and your positioning to attract more people. To get involved in, in sports as well, which is something that we're, that we, uh, we're, we're doing a lot of at the moment. So absolutely there, there is this there's this broader message that's got to connect with people that's connecting to that motivation. And then once you've got people involved in it and engaged with it, trying to keep them engaged on a regular basis, to Emma's point, it's got to be sustainable. If somebody starts them being involved on a, on a frequent basis, then. Then, you know, you can maybe take them on a journey and then you can sort of start to generate more interest amongst that community in the performance product, the media products within the sport.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:I wonder if sometimes sport as entertainment, you know, has, people assume that getting people to watch sport football on telly drives them to football. Actually, it just means they, they watch more telly. It's just training them to be in front of a screen rather than making that sort of transition. Again, sorry, I'm being cynical. I won't, I I, I promise you there are, there are sunny uplands on this. There we are. We are gonna we are, we all get there. But there's, uh, we, we need to sort of lay out what the, uh, challenges are. I've got another question, which is ringing in my head, which is we're in a peculiar sort of, and Celine mentioned at the political moment that we're in, how. What you might call purpose campaigns, broader campaigns, societal campaigns, how they're now being received and being jumped on in certain cases. And so, well, this is just woke nonsense. This is, stay in your lane, sell trainers. Be about this, but don't then try to, be inclusive and broaden and talk about mental health, those are going to be tested over the next period because the assumptions that I grew up with. Are being challenged fundamentally in terms of the way in which those messages are being seen. We see it all day every day as in the news agenda. Sometimes it's confected news stories, but sometimes people who get properly angry about brands talking about subject matter that doesn't appear to be directly related to product sales. Is that a conversation that's alive within sort of Ipso world?
emma-zwiebler-_1_12-05-2024_153802:Knew you were going to come to me with that one. So it's always dangerous for, uh, former lawyers to talk about anything creative or marketing. But I mean, I answered this in a few ways and Celine, I'm
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:I've, I've, met some creative lawyers by the way.
emma-zwiebler-_1_12-05-2024_153802:yeah, those are, those are usually the ones you want to avoid. Uh, no, I, I mean, look, we see definitely a change in consumer behavior and brand behavior and the way that those two are engaging with one another. So on the one hand. Consumers want to feel like their brands align to their own core values, right? So we see a lot more of this that's built up over the last five, 10 years, and you've seen it played out in many different ways, shapes, and forms. I think that there is. Certainly, you know, there is certainly a challenge that is coming up right now in relation to the conversations that are being had in public and how difficult it is as a brand or an individual to make particular statements, right? It's become, you know, you referred to it as, you know, wokeness or whatever, but there is a challenge around. being able to talk openly in public and free without being challenged. So I think it's going to be an interesting evolution over the next five, 10 years to see how this plays out because across I guess the Covid period across the Black Lives Matters, you saw a lot of brands starting to step into this space and starting to, I wouldn't say make statements, because that sounds like there's no substance to it, but certainly align their brands, Celine, you can jump in on that, but certainly align their brands and their messaging to something that, you know, they felt they wanted to communicate outwardly. Outwardly to their consumer. I think we'll have to see how that plays out but, you know, it's not just something that's impacting companies, it's also impacting individuals, right? I mean, just from a personal perspective. I used to go on Twitter a lot. I don't do it anymore. Like, I don't want to go on there and I don't want to put anything out there either because it's just an uncomfortable environment. You can't have an open dialogue or, you know, even one where you challenge one another like we are here on this podcast. I think these, these spaces to be able to have that dialogue are important. I don't know, Celine, if you want to chip in from the brand perspective, but I would say we're in that kind of flux moment. We've certainly evolved from it being, as you described, Richard, where it's all about just selling product and staying in your lane. There's been a moment where brands have stepped into that and aligned values to consumer values. And now I think it's a space where it's quite challenging to do that publicly.
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:Yeah, where I was reacting, Emma, is I'm still very close to what's happening in the U. S. and having lived there for several years. You see a lot of DEI's entity being dismantled. Yeah. And, uh, and hence my reaction thinking, was it truly meaningful or was it in a reaction of the moment where it was absolutely needed? And in my opinion is still needed. Yeah, so it's not that the job is done. But because the world has evolved and there are new topics or trends, I'm going to be pushy. Was it for some a fad? And I think for some it was. It was opportunistic. It was, a reaction because they knew they had to, otherwise they would have been like, uh, really in even further trouble, but I don't think that for all, and I don't speak just sporting goods, I'm speaking holistically speaking society, was it that meaningful? And I think a bit like you, Emma, you, you don't go on Twitter. I don't watch the news anymore because we are in a society that is more about division than about coming together. And for me, that's the power of what we are doing on physical activity with WFSGI. We could all say, well, no, I'm going to do my thing because I'm against them, et cetera. What Emma has managed with WFSGI is to bring us all together to make that conversation, not about. Each of our brand individually, each of us as a leader, but as, as a collective towards, I would, if I may say that way, the world and humanity. Yeah. And, and we need more of that and less of the rest. Hence my reaction. But we've said we would bring some positive. And for me, Richard, one of them it's, but that's one way to look, we could have continued doing it the way we were doing it with absolutely no results. Or we can try to come together, which Emma is literally orchestrating and leading, and for us to create impact. And I'm
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:I think there's a couple of questions, sorry Emma, I'll bring you in, but I completely agree with you in terms of, was it genuine, is your position genuine or was it virtue signaling these are the types of conversations that go beyond the marketing department and get to the board quite quickly. It spreads and so you better be safe on your ground. It better not have been a, a sort of flimsy opportunistic attempt. Sort of wash your brand with whatever particular social cause you wanted to. I completely agree with that. The other question I've got, which is, Whether or not the audience ever was there, or whether it was an assumption on the part of people who are in charge of marketing departments and advertising agencies, that they thought, well, actually, this is my world and I'm projecting this onto the rest of the world. And of course, this is inarguable. We are for diversity and inclusion and equality. And it turns out that quite a few people weren't, and now they've been given license to voice that disagreement. And so actually not much has changed other than the people who didn't like it in the first place are now much more vocal. boom, boom. boom.
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:I think,
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:quite a stylist there.
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:yeah, I think, I think when it comes to the, the, this conversation about sporting goods, brands, and messaging and what you can and can't talk about the, I think if we bring this back to that, there is a massive convergence of sport, health, and wellbeing. So if sporting goods, brands are having a part of that conversation, uh, and are putting out, putting out messages. around health and wellbeing, then that is an authentic, that is an authentic message from them. Okay. And it works. And it's something that, that resonates with people. And it's something that really can't be, uh, can't be unpicked too much, especially when, you know, you've got the thinking behind it, like Selena and her team at decathlon with ready to play or some mind, some body that there's a lot of. It's playing to win, isn't it? It's playing to win in this world and building a brand around something that people care about, they're passionate about, but actually they're being really authentic in the way they're doing it. As soon as you sort of step out of your lane, then yes, maybe there's opportunity for recourse, but I won't sort of comment on, but I think, you know, when you talk about sporting goods brands, should they just sell more trainers or should they, you know, is it their rights to, To convey messaging around health and wellbeing. Absolutely. In my, in my opinion, it's part of part of their, their brand building activities, and that's going to be different for each brand based on how they want to, to, to people to think about them over time. And I don't, I don't see any, any, any issues with that as long as it's authentic to the, to the brand and the organization and what they're trying to, trying to, trying to deliver. So, For me, it's, it's a totally natural thing.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:And in theory, it should be easier for the sports brands to play in that territory. I mean, so I guess the performance marketing is a safe haven for them. We might see more of it as they say, right. Okay. We're going to just dial down the social campaigns. And actually just go back to, it's going to be about winning and game face and that's, we'll get through the next period in that way. I can see a sort of reduction in ambition.
emma-zwiebler-_1_12-05-2024_153802:I don't know, I think I would pressure test this, and I think I'd say it's an and and, right? We talked earlier that it's not a one size fits all solution if you're going to try and get the world to be more active and more healthy, so I think you need both, and I totally agree with you, Johnny, that this is something that's absolutely authentic to the industry. But I think thinking, or the belief that all the sporting goods industry has to offer as a tool, or the only tool it has to get people to be more engaged is is communications is not the right one, right? Because brands are different to other industries in that way, because it's not just comms campaigns that they have to touch different people with, right? A lot of brands are investing in programmatic interventions, whether it's with community partners, whether it's, you know, with rights holders that they work with to try to be physically on the ground, getting people to be more active. There's also product innovations, right, that across a whole range of different aspects that allow people who might not normally have been active to become active. And there's been a lot you know, a lot of investment in that, especially over the past, past five, 10 years. And then there's a bit more around what we talked about at the start around, you know, lobbying and advocacy. So, you know, when I think about the industry and the industry's tools and. And why it's such an important partner or player in all of this is that it isn't just limited to communications campaigns. And, and to be honest, if, you know, when you take the, the brands that are working with us, like Celine said on this agenda to how do we leverage the power of the industry to get more people moving? I mean, we do talk about that from a communication standpoint. We had a joint statement in June where we had. 48 member companies and national federations, 25 C suite leaders who came out to sign up to this to say, this is something the industry. Acknowledges is a challenge and we need to play our part in it. That is an aspect of communications campaigns, but there's so many other things that the industry can do to be a part of it. And I think our sort of rallying cry to, to give a positive end, Richard, uh, is that we need others to be thinking about it too. Right? What's their USP? What is it that they can bring to this agenda so that. You know, in two years time, we're not sitting here talking about why is sport not showing up? Why is our message not cutting through? It's okay. We made some tangible progress here. How do we continue to, to elevate this? How do we continue to grow the industry? Because, you know, to round out something that's been a bit of an underlying current on this podcast. The world is changing rapidly. I feel like the world, no, not I feel, I know that the world has never needed sport more than before. And it's not this moment that we need to shy away on the sidelines, right? We need to get out on that pitch. Let me use every single. Stereotype and metaphor that I can, but I mean that that's this moment. That is this moment now, right? You know, the papers are filled with everything that's going on in Europe. January is going to be an interesting moment in time for the world. We need to be out there as sports saying we are something that can provide people with a healthy, happy, active future. And it's really on us if we don't.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:See, I knew we'd get to the sunny uplands.
emma-zwiebler-_1_12-05-2024_153802:Just needed Donald Trump in January.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:I think that's great. So, I mean, I think it's so. And if anyone, any final comments while we round, while we round out, it's been, we've been in lots of different places and thank you for your honesty and, you know, being up for a broad conversation, but any, anyone want to round us off, I mean, we can, we can leave it to Emma's rallying call there for the industry, but if anyone wants to add something, I think there's a quite an interesting bit about the link. I keep coming back to Johnny, the link between what I see as the sports business and Emma's version of the sports business. It's interesting how little coordination there is, but anyway.
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:So Celine, you,
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:I, I, there's a thing in my mind is where does, where does sport start? Where does sport stops? Yeah? And for me there's a bit of that in what you describe, Richard, is like the way you see it, the way Emma sees it, the way I see it, the way Joni sees it. At the end of the day, the confluence of all those spaces, that's the core space of it. And that's what, because you have four optimists around that table. It was very gloomy, but ultimately, we're not doing what we're doing if we didn't believe that we can make a change. Yeah. Otherwise, we're Why get up and try? Yeah.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:Celine, I am saving the world one podcast at a time.
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:but you are educating people and let's start education. I'm sorry. Cause you're going to getting me on another topic that I'm really passionate about. Education is what is lacking in our world. Yeah. And if we were doing that, then we would be in a better place. And then we would not bother about what's happening because we would be able, capable of getting the right information. And that includes for sports. Because physical activity, when you are, when you understand the power of it, changes the way you look at life.
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:I think there's some fantastic work being done in lots of different areas of, of the sports industry, be it, uh, your sports business industry, Richard, or the sporting goods sector. Or it's undeniable that there is a huge amount of brilliant projects, work. Uh, communications that that's happening, but somehow we've got to sort of, all work a bit more together as a, as a whole to try and impact, uh, more change. And I think, uh, Also, you know, for me, it's seeing this part of the sports industry as an incredible business opportunity that Emma mentioned earlier, 1. 8 billion people. If we can get them engaged in some way, shape or form that the whole industry is going to grow massively. So, yeah, I, as I said, there's amazing work happening. We just need to somehow coordinate all of this a bit better and, uh, to, to, to have the impact. Uh, the bigger impact that we all, we all know sport can have on people and their lives.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:Fantastic. Well, listen, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming together. And so Emma, Celine, Johnny, thanks so much for your time. Johnny, I'm, I'm in awe of how you got from Hitoh airport to in, uh, you know, record time. Talk about high performance.
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:It certainly wasn't high performance.
richard_1_12-05-2024_143802:Brilliant. Thank you.
jonny-guest816_1_12-05-2024_143855:Thank you. all.
celine_1_12-05-2024_153803:Thank you all. Bye.