Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP446 Wedge Issues: The Man Who Bought The Tour
Wedge Issues is Unofficial Partner's business of golf series.
Ryan Howsam is the insurance entrepreneur behind the giant Staysure organisation, who liked golf so much he bought the European Seniors Tour, beginning as a sponsor and turning that in to a majority ownership stake, rebranding it as the Legends Tour.
This gives him a fascinating angle in to the golf product, from the elite tours, through to the travel market and property development side, which is all part of the plan.
It’s a conversation that brings in Donald Trump, Elon Musk, LIV Golf and the problems with the tour model.
Referenced in the podcast
See Ryan Howsam In conversation with
And Eric Trump
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Hello, Richard Gillis here. Welcome to Unofficial Partner. This is an episode of wedge issues. Which is Our business of golf series. Our guest is Ryan. Howsam the insurance entrepreneur behind the giant stay Shaw organization. Who liked golf so much. He bought the European seniors tour beginning as a sponsor and turning that into a majority ownership, stake, rebranding it as the legends tour. That's just where it begins.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:the problem with these tours is the players are paid so much money that it's very, very difficult to commercially make it work. Because, as you know, it's just a race to who will pay the most gets the best player. And I suppose you can understand that, but what these tours aren't doing, and I think Liver are going to have a go at this, and this new, I think this new strategic alliance that they'll probably end up doing with the PGA DP World and and PIF will be more in this line because they're looking at the economics of golf, and that's basically where I saw a really big thing that we could do, that we could, basically go after this over 50s audience.
This position and the middle of the game. Gives how some, a fascinating angle into the Gulf product. At every level from the elite tours through to the travel market and the property development side, which is all part of the plan as you're here, it's a conversation that brings in Donald Trump, Elon Musk, live golf and the problems of the tour. Model We referenced a conversation that Ryan had with Nigel Farage on GB news and also Eric Trump, where he talk about a senior's Ryder cup. All of that will be in the show notes. To this episode. This podcast is sponsored by. We are sweet helping you tell compelling stories in the moment as they happen from the heart of the action. We are sweet captures live biometric data from athletes. To uncover storytelling moments from key, major moments to subtle micro moments, you might not even know are taking place. These are crafted into captivating stories and transformed into stunning visuals. Ready for your broadcast live event displays and second screen fan experiences all in real time. From head-to-head heart rates to anticipate it overtakes. We are suite provides AI driven insights to fuel conversations, inform bookmakers, and predict future outcomes. All in the name of deepening fan engagement, enhanced your audience's understanding of the action. Like never before. By using live data from, we are sweet.
Richard Gillis:I think we should start with a bit of biography, because it is an unusual story and it's a really interesting one. And it's one that someone like me projects all sorts of questions onto. And I just want to make sure that I'm asking the right ones.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:I actually started my first business when I was 19. So I had a bit of a roller coaster few Businesses. I had one really good one that I got wrong In my late 20s, but was going really well for some time and it was Around the time when I, mid to late 30s where I'd had a, you know, a bit of an up and then a down again. And I had two business opportunities and I actually set both up at the same time without any money really, other than I sold. Part of one for the other. And one of them was Stayshore and Stayshore is a travel insurance company, and the reason I started travel insurance was quite simply that I'd, I'd had some tech and before this, I'd had, I'd had like a two for one golf program that I'd sold into Tesco and, you know, their club car program and so on. And they asked, not them, but JJB sport asked if I could do golf insurance. I thought, well, I'll find a way. So, I, I did golf insurance and put a bit of tech together, but because part of my background had been travel, I thought, why don't I just try and use this tech for travel insurance? And that's how I started in travel insurance. And so I sort of, like many entrepreneurs do really fell into it.
Richard Gillis:And what was the business in your 20s?
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Well, I mean, I had, I had a couple, but the, the one that was the most successful, it was, I suppose you could call it an early Groupon, really. It had it was a discount program. It had two strands to it. One was restaurants, the other was nightlife. And the one that was restaurants, we called it Goodlife. And the one that was Clubs and bars we called it nightlife and that was quite an interesting one actually because I Got started and the nightlife section really started to work quite well, so we'd had Like a it was like access to clubs without paying it was half price drinks blah blah blah And we sold it up and down the country in mainly in train stations at a Stand it was like 30 quid a pop and and then we opened retail stores with it. We had them up and down the country and that was a real rollercoaster. And I did pretty well with that to the point where the internet was kicking off and I I managed to sell part of it to an ISP that was starting up around the time of free server, if you can recall that, and it was a guy that was the ex owner of, not the owner, manager of Pink Floyd. I think his name was Brian Starr, he was a real character it was something like that anyway, but anyway, he I agreed to deal with him, I took my eye off the business, he had a, a quoted company and I was supposed to be getting shares in that company, and at the time I think it was a million quid of the shares and I still kept the business actually, and then he tried to chip me on Right at the close to about 600 grand. And I told him to bugger off. But in that meantime, I took my eye off the business and I ended up losing everything. So it was quite an interesting one, but anyway, I did quite, I, you know, I, I did well cashflow wise. But I, I suppose, yeah, a few a few wrong starts and, you know, coming from quite a. I suppose a council house background. I didn't really understand money and, and cash flow and accounts and all that type of stuff. So, you know, it took me a while to really understand how to operate a business properly.
Richard Gillis:So you've, there is the up and down of what people quite often, you know, refer to as the entrepreneurial sort of career. do you become immune to that as you go on? Cause you're, you know, as you get older, do you, that risk reward equation, is that still central with you now? Or do you think, okay, now I've learned how to manage that.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Well, yeah, I, I think I take way more risks than most people. but, but it's very calculated now. So it's, it's a different type of risk profile. And actually when I, when I, when I go back and I look at my history, every single business worked,
Richard Gillis:Yeah.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:I just didn't manage it effectively. And you know, I, I, my main problem really was my ability to stay focused on one thing. And I'd see a shiny new thing and off I'd go and I'd end up doing three, four things. And actually now I've got lots of things, but I'm in a position where I can do that. So scratching that itch of having something that's interesting to go and do, that's not just the main boring thing that you do every day is, you know, what excites me. But then, The thing that you do in a boring way every day is what makes real money. And I remember I was, I was nominated to be entrepreneur of the year with the Ernest and Young thing. And I was one of many there and these guys that I met without being rude, I thought, sure, I'm better than most of these guys But interestingly, not all of them, but most of them have got their one idea and they just kept going. And it was a real light bulb moment for me that, you know, just stick to this one thing, make it work, don't veer away from it, keep going. You know, we're 20 years on now and half a billion of turnover, a thousand people and it worked, but I stuck to it until I got to the point where, you know, I could do other things.
Richard Gillis:it's gone right. The,
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Well, no, the thing is everything went right and then some things went wrong, but that's just, you know, that's the entrepreneurial thing. And, you know, I mean, just never giving up really. And
Richard Gillis:the, the worry. Yeah. The worry is that, you know, it's interesting. It's sort of self selective that room entrepreneur of the year are the, it's a room of the winners, isn't it? So there's probably a parallel room or several other rooms where people have stayed on the same horse and it's been the wrong horse. That's always the concern, isn't it? That you're, you're, back in the wrong horse.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:it, it, it is. But you know what? Uh, I mean, if you're going in the wrong direction, you're in trouble most of the time, most businesses will work is if you're going in the right direction. For me though, it's about, I mean, I have like a simple thing, which is what's the space that you can own? Who else is there? How do you outmaneuver them? What's different about what you do? You know, the, You know, the proposition and so on and then really there's got to just be enough margin or enough money in it to make it work. So, you know, the, the reason I've done very well with Stayshore, put simply is that I picked an older audience and that older audience had medical conditions. I was the first to put medical conditions front and center of the proposition and and it really took off from there. But the, the reality is, is there was enough. margin to acquire a customer to then spend more money and I had positive cash flow. So, you know, from that point I could just self fulfill and just keep growing and growing. And that's what I did and what's happened.
Richard Gillis:Insurance, I always think is really interesting for lots of reasons, but I suspect, you know, a lot about your audience in a way that at a sort of level that other types of organizations don't, or are guessing. And we're getting, I guess I'm sort of, we get a lot of people on here talking about how sports rights holders can behave more like Amazon, behave more like an insurance or a retailer, or just that granular understanding of the audience doing what you're doing. But with, with a sports property. So that's where that sort of direction of this question really, but what do you know, what does insurance tell you? Cause I'm imagining you, I'm giving up lots of quite rich behavioral information.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah. Well, look, with, with the business like mine and many businesses now in this digital age particularly, well, I suppose any. e commerce type business, which we are. I mean, consumers pick up the phone to speak to us as well as buy online, but you know, more and more people are buying online the amount of data that's available now to understand the audience what their preferences are, how they want to interact with you and then, you know, well, how they claim, obviously that's a key thing but that data is incredibly important. And in fact, if you don't know your data, if you're not on top of your data, now to get that.
Richard Gillis:And How do you do it? Is that just
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:What do you mean? how do you do it?
Richard Gillis:How do you get that data? How, what's the, how do you get information from me? It's just, just part of the application process.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:well, yeah, well, there's the application process, but you've got different lots of tech. And one of the things I did in 2006, I set up my own tech business which is in Sri Lanka. It's got about 300 people there now. And so, you know, we've got really smart tech people. WizKids out there, but it's, it's your application data, it's your marketing data, it's your behavioral data, and you have to mix all of this, and you've got a range of stuff, everything from what's your acquisition cost for the customer, how often are they returning, what's the lifetime value which cohorts of customer are responding in different ways and giving you more margin You know, and then obviously you've got to look after the customers. And it's interesting actually, because, you know, when we are the market leader in this area by quite a long way, and so we're a fair size company, I think in the UK as a broker I think we're about the sixth largest broker in the UK. But if you bear in mind that, These brokers are in markets that are tens if not hundreds of billions. I mean, the travel insurance market in the UK is about 1. 6 billion and we've got 450 million of it. So, you know, we've been really successful in this one niche. So, you know, I suppose when you consider that, it's you know, we've, we've done very well just in, in that one area.
Richard Gillis:So when you, when you look at golf and we get to the the product, what is the product do you think of the tours?
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Of golf or the tours or generally?
Richard Gillis:I think, well, let's do both, but I'm assuming they're different.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:well, I've, I've made them different. so I mean, look, typically you've got you know, the golf tours, as you know, the, you know, the PGA tour. And I suppose you can say that live now and DP world, you know, you've got the best players in the world that are entertaining the consumer both on TV and and in, you know, in person at these various events. So, you know, you've got. Aurora driving the 330, 40 yards or whatever, and everything that goes along with these young lads playing, playing golf. So, I mean, it's you know, it's a sport that's really evolved, you know, the fitness side of it, I think is really moved on from when it was, when I was a young lad, when you imagine golfers then versus now, they're quite different and they are athletes now. So in that sense, I think it's, it's really taken off. And I think on the back of COVID, it's. Geared up a, a lot more, isn't it? So
Richard Gillis:Ryan, just, I quite miss the fat golfer, don't you? I quite like, there was a bit of it that I thought, I quite liked the chubby fella, you know, it gave us all hope. You know, it was that they were a bit more everyman, now they're all sort of superhero looking. I,
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:well, well, they are, but we, we've still, we've got a few Chubbies on the, uh, on, on the tour. Uh, I actually, I was fortunate to play with, uh oh. What's the masters winner? The the guy from from Argentina. Oh.
Richard Gillis:yeah. Oh. blimey, what's
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:He's won it twice, what's his name, I can't, I've lost his, I've lost his name for the moment, but he's, he's quite a chubby but big bear y type fella and he is an absolute country mile. So, you know, some of these guys the older guys, they're, they're still very you know, it's, it's wrist and it's it's timing and all of
Richard Gillis:I saw your ad with, with Monty. I
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah. Well, Monty, I mean, he just has that little left to right that just drops in everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. So really good. So I, I suppose, you know, our our product from a, from the consumer watching it is a different product because it's not the vomit and all of that. Although these guys can still get it out there. Some of them are getting it over 300 yards thereabouts. But I think it's more, especially in person it's, it's more real. Because most people nowadays can hit a driver 250, 60 yards. And some of these guys are hitting it 250, 260, 270. Or if you take somebody like Gary Wollstone home he perhaps know his, his history you know, Walker, great amateur player and all of that, doesn't hit it very far at all. but he, you know, he can compete and he, and he's brilliant around the green. So you, you have this. Different dynamic where it's quite funny really where you'll get some guys and they're up there and they're like, they can hit it as far as these guys, but they can't score. It's quite different, you know.
Richard Gillis:Angel Cabrera.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:That's it. Well done. And that, that was a controversial one actually, you know, because that and Trump, which we'll perhaps get onto a little bit later, but yeah. You know, obviously the problems that Angela had had, but we just took the view that, you know, it served his time, moved on and we wanted him to play and it was a big draw actually.
Richard Gillis:He's been in prison, hasn't he? I think that,
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah, he had. Yeah. yeah. Yeah.
Richard Gillis:so the, the product is different. So in terms of from a business perspective of the, tour, we're looking there at, so it's less a sort of media product. Entertainment product. I'm wondering about other media rights. Is there a market that is that within the tour? Does the tour sell those centrally or do you sell those separately?
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:we sell them and no, it's, you know, it's absolutely media rights and, and the media. And in fact I don't know if you had a look at that Rick Shields stuff that I told you about. Yeah. So, you know, we've. We're really pushing the media in quite a big way or the social media because it's incredibly important and we're getting, you know, we're getting a good engagement with this product. So from a social side You know, building the product up socially. I think what's really interesting about these guys, other than watching them play golf or being able to play alongside them, the locker room stories are just fantastic. You know, and, we're going to definitely be building a podcast on the back of these players and and all these stories that are out there because they're quite compelling, very, very funny.
Richard Gillis:What do you, think the need is being met here? Because there's a trend as you'll be more than aware of sort of cricket is going this route, football, there's a, there's a sort of marketplace for what we used to call the seniors tour, champions tour, whatever the, however we define it. What need is being met, do you think, fundamentally?
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:well, but depends from which side you're looking at it from an audience side you know, without being disparaging to DP world, unless you've got their major tour they're, you know, they're major tournaments where the big players aren't rocking up and there's some brilliant players on DP world, but aren't recognizable to the audience. So, if you take people our age and, you know, a certain demographic, some of the players on our tour are, you know, really, really well known, better than those. So I think that's one need, really, that there's that. And I think they're quite surprised when they realise how competitive and how good these guys still are. You know, they can still, they can still score. And as you're seeing now with, with these over 50s, where you get like a Mickelson that goes and wins a major and so on, so they can still compete. Obviously technology helps them as well. And if, if they get on a shorter course that, you know, they've got a chance of being able to compete. So, so there's, there's that. Particular product. That's one need. The, you know, all of these stories and the social side and the hints and tips and all that type of stuff, we, we will building up that. I suppose that's another, and then the in-person stuff that we've done, which is very, very different, which is taking, you know, the at and t format. Or not so much exactly that format at and t at Pebble Beach or the Dunhill where you're playing in tournament play with these players. But what's different about our products is as opposed to playing in a team format with the pro, you're actually playing your own ball. So if you can imagine playing in front of crowds, your own ball whilst they're playing. It's very, very different.
Richard Gillis:And that's actual tournament play. It's not the Wednesday
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this, this is the one thing that really sets us aside. So It's in tournament play at brilliant golf courses in front of crowds particularly depending upon where they are in the world. But, you know, if you've got The local audience, I mean, like the Stayshore PGA, which is probably our number one tournament up at Trump international. You know, you've got 20 odd thousand people and that's just brilliant. And the coming up behind you, it's just, the experience is really fantastic. But it's. It's not for everybody because some people don't like playing in that type of pressured environment because you are alongside them where they're trying to score to win the tournament, you know, I mean, they'll talk to you, they'll have a bit of a laugh and, you know, the prime is one thing before where you've got, you know, you've got one pro and three amateurs and they're having a good time and so on, you know, inside the ropes, it's a very different experience.
Richard Gillis:It's interesting because there's a sort of divergence. You mentioned social media and there's a question here. There's two, the two directions is one is performance,
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah.
Richard Gillis:performance. There's sort of superhuman aspect to it. And then there's the relatability point. And you mentioned Rich Shields, you know, so there's a whole growth of, of the golfer as the sort of club pro who has made a career out of, of uh, being relatable, doing stuff, asking questions that, you know, you don't get on the TV coverage. So you've got that divergence and it's
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah.
Richard Gillis:in many places where you can put those two worlds together on the same and get them playing together. Is that, I mean, it's, it's sort of without, uh, without a compromise that's too, is too big.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:yeah, not at all. And you this is where, when I, when I actually did this deal. So to start with you know, I sponsored this what was the European senior tour? I don't know if you're going to go there a bit later on. I'll cover a little bit of that now.
Richard Gillis:Let's do it
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah.
Richard Gillis:Is it was to stay short or wasn't it Did
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:started off, it was the European senior tour and David McLaren, who was the then then head of tour, had been introduced to me by one of the pros, somebody that I knew, and suggested it might be a good idea for me to sponsor the senior tour. And They wanted quite a lot of money at that point and I didn't think it was really worth it. But in the end, you know, we, we, we did a deal that worked for me. And, you know, Keith Pelly said something really clever, which was we were going to call it the Stayshore European Senior Tour. And Kelly said, Pelly said, just call it the Stayshore Tour because the brand, it'll just be Stayshore. And that, and it really did work and worked quite well. But what, The tour we're doing, because most of their when I said the tour, I'm on about DP world now, or as it was then the European tour. You know, they were really focused as you can imagine on the European tour and very, very few resources were put into the what was then the senior tour. And in fact, they didn't market this thing at all. So you can imagine you've got people like Woozie, Montgomery, whoever they are, turning up and playing somewhere and nobody knew about it. And I'm like, well, surely you've got to put these guys front and center of this thing and market it. And I was astounded when I saw that there was literally no marketing, I mean, nothing, there was no marketing budget. And I'm like, well, that's a starting point. And then there was this trial format of playing in the tournament, this tournament play. And it was, it, it just really was very, very good. And, and at that point I said to David McLaren, who was then the head of tour, as I said, I think this thing needs marketing way, way more and just changing. And I said, do you think there's any chance that I could take ownership of this and I said, I doubt it, you know, it's a member's organization that there's any chance anyway, I persevered and then did a deal. I probably the worst timing of a deal I could have ever done, which was in the middle of COVID. It was really stupid. Anyway, I did and yeah, got
Richard Gillis:that, did that move it from definitely No, to yes. What
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:No, we actually, in fairness, we had, uh, we had agreed verbally a deal, but there was contractual stuff to do, and I just wanted to get it over the line and get going. And uh,
Richard Gillis:were the barriers to that? Why did David, why was he so it's just good. It's never been
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:well, well, well, it had not been done before, but also It's a members organization. So the members have to vote. to do that. So if you can imagine that, you know, you've got a committee and you've got the tour and the board and their, their role is to look after the players and make sure that they're doing the best thing for the players that they can. So you've got a commercial guy that's coming along. I mean, they obviously trusted me to a degree, but there's also. What does it mean if some guy takes it over commercially and changes it? So there are, there are some things which I can't do. For example, if I wanted to change the size of the hole or the, some of the formatting stuff, well, format I'm in charge of, but if I wanted to change things radically, I wouldn't, I would have to get that through a committee, but other than that, I'm in total control of the business.
Richard Gillis:So well, there's a few things there. This is really fascinating. I guess there's a live golf comparison here. So when I first saw the live golf deck and I, we had the, you know, people in book before, and we had the PGL uh, Andy Gardner from PGL. And
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah.
Richard Gillis:there was a lot I liked about the product, the idea at a product level. I don't love live as a, as a. The execution of it, but the idea of it, I thought was asking some really interesting questions. And you mentioned there that it's a, you know, these tours are membership organizations and they've got to act on behalf of all of the members. So it's not the top 10 golfers. It's everyone. And that's always seen as a sort of bit of a strategic floor. That's the root in that live was, that was what live was doing.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah,
Richard Gillis:getting at, wasn't it? And again, it's sort of interesting you are doing, you've seen the same dynamic,
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah, but, but
Richard Gillis:context.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:it is. And it's very similar, but they're not really because you've got with, with Liv, those players are contracted and have to play those tournaments, right? I have ambassadors and we have a deal for ambassadors, which are the bigger name players on the tour. And we do You know, we do sort of contract them into play some tournaments. So in that respect, it's, it's similar, but then I'm dealing with a members organization at the same time. So what you've got is you've got me as a majority shareholder my organization, and you've got DP world as a minority organization, and they are looking out for the. You know, for the, for the player's interests. And so, when I initially did this deal, the bit that got it over the line was that there was a prize fund and I guaranteed a minimum prize fund and a minimum number of tournaments, and that was a risk that I took and the simple move I made was I was sponsoring this thing and I thought, I wonder if I can turn it from sponsorship money to ownership. In other words, imagine if for that amount of money, I own the thing rather than. I'm just a sponsor. Right. And the big difference really is that these tours. I mean, even live to this degree, really, is that the problem with these tours is the players are paid so much money that it's very, very difficult to commercially make it work. Because, as you know, it's just a race to who will pay the most gets the best player. And I suppose you can understand that, but what these tours aren't doing, and I think Liver are going to have a go at this, and this new, I think this new strategic alliance that they'll probably end up doing with the PGA DP World and and PIF will be more in this line because they're looking at the economics of golf, and that's basically where I saw a really big thing that we could do, that we could, basically go after this over 50s audience. So not just the golf, but what sits around the tournament and these players that we could then make money out of. So you end up not just trying to get sponsors, to pay players, to make this thing break even if you're lucky. The idea is what else can you do? And If you look at the Champions Tour in the US, obviously a very good product, doesn't have what we have in terms of the playing opportunities, they've just got the Pro Ams before, so different in that respect, so I think there we're, you know, we're a better product for the consumer, the playing consumer I'm talking about there. But what they're not doing is building on that over 50s audience and trying to get commercial income from other things, utilizing the players to drive those products and services, whatever they might be. And that's fundamentally where I'm going that's completely different to everywhere, everybody else.
Richard Gillis:just explain that a stage further. So I think I understand what you're talking
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah. So, so I'll give you a couple of examples. So we have, uh, Legends Tour Resorts. One of the, I think it's about 11 billion spent annually on property purchases at golf courses, actually on resort, right? So one of the things we're moving to from the 26th season, will that be all of our tournaments will be on golf resort properties. So when we rock up, we rock up with high net worths and then we'll promote that venue and that property throughout the year. And we'll put it out in all the channels that you'd expect to buy property as well. But what we'll do is create the best content in golf for resort property. So if you can imagine a major winner talking about the course and so on over drones flying over and then taking one of our presenters like Rachel wherever Abigail, you know, one of the good attractive presenters, if I might say that you know, and, and presenting that property in a way, and then, you know, then we go. So we've got income there that's different to everywhere else. And the extension of that is that we are. Riding the final throes of, of buying our first resort and this resort is it's got planning for about 2, 000 properties in Spain, it's got over 6 or 800 million billed out and we'll badge it up as a Legends Tour resort, which will be a physical resort. So suddenly we've got a very different model in that one sense. And then on the other side you know, what, what are the products and services that these guys can promote? So take apparel and so on. So we're, you know, we're, we'll build an apparel brand that will sit alongside the tour. So all of these things then will bring money into the tour and be commercially viable. So if you, if you're thinking about. You know, why would, why would why would somebody want to invest in Legends Tour Holdings, which is what it will be? Because you've got a big property play, you'll have a big apparel play, you'll have some of the biggest names in golf, Ryder Cup captains, major winners, all of that, promoting this ecosystem. And then you've got the sports rights holders value and whatever that is. So when you put all of that together, you've It's a big thing because you've then got this over 50s audience that is engaging with it in a way, and, and, you know, at some point maybe purchasing through it as well. So it's not just about the tour, the tournaments.
Richard Gillis:So how far, where do you start and stop? Do you, are you buying those resorts? You'll make, you own those resorts and then, you know, so there is a Trump parallel here. I'm not talking about personally, but there is a model. I can see a sort of echoes of, of branded resorts. Golf being used as a marketing sort of arm of that and the stars being, you know, front, it could be fronting that. So I can, I, I see that, but where do you, are you, are you a marketing company or are you a property developer?
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:both. So, you know, if you imagine the time it would take to build out resorts around the world, quite a long time. So, that's one at a time, picking the right locations and so on. And what's interesting about that, actually, is that Countries that we've been going to, governments have been very interested in, in what we're doing because we're bringing a tourism side to it. And they're interested in opening up land for zoning for us. So that's, that's interesting. But we've got one that's, you know, about to go. Other than that one, The other ones will be venues. So Trump is our partner, for example, in the Aberdeen and we'll look at other ones with Trump and any other resorts where the central theme is property, but it has to be a real quality resort. It's, it's at the top end really. And so, so In one respect, you could call Legends Tour Resorts a real estate company and another could, and you would say it's a property developer. And then on the apparel side or whatever product you put alongside it, you know, there'll be a brand there that will start to sell stuff that these guys will be wearing and promoting.
Richard Gillis:It's interesting. I mean, this is a long time ago now, probably 15 years ago. I used to work with uh, KPMG. On their golf business forum. And they, and that was, you know, their business model obviously was, you know, do you want to build a, if you're a property developer, come and talk to us. Can you, you know, the feasibility study of, of, building in Bulgaria, a golf
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah.
Richard Gillis:pay us a hundred grand and we'll, you know, and the answer will be yes. Essentially, that was the business model. And then, and funnily enough, Guy Kinnings, who's obviously now in charge of the European tour, he bought the KPMG event and made it the HSBC event and got me into to help out. And that was again, a while ago, but the reading of the original KPMG event was that, There was a sort of of golf, driver of, property development value and an oversupply. And it was rider cut related in many ways. It was in particularly in Europe, where you had Portugal and Ireland and Spain and other bits of Europe where you had that golf driving the property development, selling around it, Greg Norman doing some similar around the
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah.
Richard Gillis:So. I thought the, the, the energy had gone out of that marketplace. And it's interesting that you're now going back into it. And I'm wondering what that tells me about the money.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah. Well, uh, uh, I think COVID had a big Push with this, right? So post COVID property sales went up in rural places and particularly golf courses. And I think golf has become more popular post COVID and what's interesting about people buying on a golf resort is it's not just golfers. It's it's people who want that type of environment. And if you, if you, I mean, there's something quite interesting happening now with equestrian and golf going together, that's quite interesting. And then if you take, I suppose the peak of this in terms of premium value, you've got Discovery Land. I don't know if you know Discovery Land, but they've, do you know them?
Richard Gillis:Yes, I have heard. Yeah. Someone was explaining it to me, actually.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah, so, so Discovery Land build out brilliant golf courses, uh, and then they charge quite a lot of money for just a plot. And then you, they do some, some, where you, they build for you or you take a plot and buy, but you know, the plots are several million dollars, they're expensive. So, and they're building around the world at the moment and their venues are fantastic. So, so, but what you've got is you've got that type of stuff going on. With golf, equestrian, they've got the whole family stuff in discovery land, for example, they've got a big movement with regards to vegetables and all the, all the stuff that you're going to eat, you know, they've got like a farming area. And then on top of that you know, they've, they've got the latest. I suppose tech that's coming out for wellness and, and longevity. So, so that, I mean, that's right at one end of the scale. If you,
Richard Gillis:Greg Norman got into grass, didn't he? As in turf
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:did he, I, I, I don't know,
Richard Gillis:beef as well. He, he made a lot
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Oh, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, probably. I don't know enough about that actually. But, But, but then I think if you think of a really good example of a one that's done very well in this area is like Finca Cortesin. I'm a member there in Southern Spain, as you know, it had, The the Solheim Cup and, and at the world Match play, I think a couple of times. But they've got a brilliant, beautiful hotel great facility with a spa and so on, and a massive property play. But that isn't in one of the prime locations on the Costa del Sol. In fact, it's one of the, in one of the cheaper locations, but that's a five star resort charging a lot of money. So, you know, the other thing is that, you know, the cost to build a property is the cost to build a property. You're getting a premium at a golf course. So, you know, in one of these, I mean, there's. particular property resort that we, you know, we're very close to, we're at the contract stage now. So I can't say where it is, but you know, that's probably going to have a 300 million profit in it. So that's, you know, it's pretty significant. Uh,
Richard Gillis:that money is, is property development
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah, yeah. It's property development. But then you've got a resort that's going to run and operate and make a profit as a business. So, you know, and hence we're, you know, we're speaking to various funds and investors about coming in alongside us in this TopCo with all of this stuff. But at the moment, you know, I've got the ability to be able to do that without those. So, you know, I've just got going and then we're, we're putting this ecosystem together.
Richard Gillis:Cause there's a sort of, it's interesting cause you're going, so there it's a top Uber type, positioning. And my assumption is that they're, they're in the middle of that marketplace. There is a glut of golf course resorts around the place that are just sitting there. That energy in that bit of the marketplace has sort of dissipated, I guess, is where the mass market has gone. But you're going above that. Is that.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Well, I mean, look, I mean, mass market golf, as far as I'm aware, you know, the, the, especially post COVID we're pretty, you know, pretty busy. But the premium resorts you know, are doing pretty well. And there's, you know, there's some, I mean, Trump's a very good example of an organization building premium resorts. I mean, if you, you're probably aware of their 36 holes there now that it's got the second 18 holes up at Trump International, and that's a fabulous second 18 holes. And he's got so much property up there that he hasn't actually even bothered starting to sell, but he will be doing soon. So, you know, you've got Companies like him that are doing that. And there are, you know, there are a number of very wealthy people that are building out multiple resorts. So, yeah, I mean, there is a, there is a an opportunity to spend it for those consumers. And then You know, if you take the private members clubs at the top end, you know, in the UK, so I'm a member of Wentworth and Beaverbrook, for example. Now Beaverbrook is not a property play actually, but it's it's a really good members place. I mean, the course is not right at the top end of quality in terms of, a major championship course, but it's just got something about it. And it's very playable and a beautiful manor house and so on. And people are paying a lot of money for those memberships. And then you've got Wentworth, which, you know, the price of those memberships have gone up an awful lot. Now, whilst they're not selling. the properties anymore because it's well developed out. You know, there's lots of plots and people have knocking them down and rebuilding and all sorts. So there is, there's a lot of money. I mean, there's, you know, as I said, there's 11 billion market of people doing this right now. So, I just need a piece of that and we're going to win.
Richard Gillis:So, so I don't doubt it. There's a, um, it's interesting Wentworth. I always think there's a, it's a sort of story of the British economy in some ways. I used to go in the eighties and the, it was Bruce and Tarby and, you know, that you sort of, People made good and the houses have all been, they all sort of gone, haven't they? And over time the Russian money came in, Chinese money, and they sort of built hotels type houses and, and a lot of it is empty. So sort of, there's a, there's a bit of me that's a bit sad about when I go to Wembley, I always find there's not a, there used to be families there. Okay. They're very wealthy families, but actually now is that there's a sort of coldness to it. It's a sort of, do you understand what I'm getting at?
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:actually, uh, I'm, I've got a place there and, uh, you know, going up to the, To the spa and clubhouse, there's loads of families there playing tennis, there's all sorts going on. So maybe from the outside looking in I don't think it's
Richard Gillis:I don't, I don't get invited to the spa, Ryan. That's the problem.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:you need to be at the spa
Richard Gillis:Yeah. Yeah. I don't just don't get the invites. What do you make of Trump? I mean, you must, you must know him. You must've come across him many times. Well, I mean, it's weird. We're talking about the, you know, he's obviously the president now. So what's, what's your take on him?
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Well, you know, previously, as you know, the establishment in golf. Really didn't want anything to do with Trump after the you know, the riots in 2020. And I, I just think his, you know, some of his golf courses are really brilliant. And that one in Aberdeen is, is, is top drawer. And I, you know, I met Sarah Malone who runs the the venue up there as the you know, general manager or above that. I'm not sure of her exact title, but she's the head honcho and she's, I met her at the BMW and I said, I'd love to have a tournament at your course. And and at that time they weren't, you know, Trump was out of favor, you know, they blocked him from trying to do the open and all of that with Turnberry and so on. And we just did a deal. And and then on the back of that, I met Eric Trump who really eloquent, smart, very smart guy. And then, you know, through that Donald Trump interacted with us. So, I know he's a little bit like Marmite. I'd like to say that, you know, I'd sort of aligned pre all of this going on. And yeah, so do I, do I, do I like him? I think what's happening in the world now of politics is, Quite frightening with what's gone on with the left. I mean, there's misinformation, I'm sure, both sides, but you know, the way the UK is now under Keir Starmer I think is an absolute disaster. And this talking down the economy and the better you do, the, the, the more you get hammered is stupidity. I mean, I'll give you a couple of numbers. This isn't, this is, I know this is a golf podcast, but I'll give you a couple. You know, the top 1%. In the UK, taxpayers pay 28 percent of the tax take, 36 percent overall if you take other things. Nondoms that they tried to get rid of paid 9. 5 billion in taxes. It'll probably surprise you to know that the tax take for inheritance tax was 7. 5 billion. I think if you give the You know, the general public, the opportunity. Would you rather keep the non doms and have these people who are spending cash in the country, nine and a half billion in taxes, plus all the stuff that they get, and have no inheritance tax? I think I know what they get, what they go for. So, and then, you
Richard Gillis:think, do you think people are angry about fairness though? I mean, a lot of the, the disparity, that's the argument, whether it's Trump exploiting that, whether it's Ferrari or whatever it is, I don't, that's their, that's the model. It's that disparity of income and the way in which the market has favored that group at the very, you 1%.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:yeah, I don't think they have. So, you know, look, nine and a half thousand millionaires are going to leave the country, the UK this year. Four and a half thousand left last year, right? In addition to that, there's 35 million digital nomads around the world. A digital nomad is somebody that can go and work from anywhere digitally. Right? All the countries, or a lot of the countries, Spain, Italy, Portugal, they're doing everything, everything they can to get these people there. Right? The second most popular country for digital nomads is Britain, after the US, and there are about 3 million of them. So 3 million people have left Britain to go and work elsewhere. Out of those 400, 000, Have started businesses, all of that money would be in the uk if the UK got their act together. It's not just labor that the conservatives got it completely wrong as well. So, you know, you can, you can say there's a disparate, you know, the, the, the top. Pay less. Well, I mean, they'll do what they can to minimize their taxes obviously, but, you know, they're paying a significant amount of money if they're in the UK and just saying, well, let's get rid of them. If you get rid of them, who do you think is going to pay?
Richard Gillis:I don't think anyone's saying get rid of that. I mean, I think there's a, there's a Question there. I mean, although it's interesting, the digital nomads question is interesting. So why is Britain attractive to those
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:No, it's not. That's the point. It's not attractive to them. The point is Britain doesn't have doesn't have a policy
Richard Gillis:You said half, they were number two behind America.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yes, so 35 million People in the world are classed as digital nomads, right? People that are moving around. 3 million people have moved out of Britain to go somewhere else to work for a business digitally or to set their own business up somewhere else. All of that income is not in Britain. So, the reality is that Corporation tax levels are a little bit below rest of Europe, but in that sense, the rest of Europe is a bit of a basket case. And then when you put all the taxes together it's huge taxation. And in fact even more so now on the, on the labor
Richard Gillis:But just on that though, just, I mean, so the, it's still a substantial number. Yes, there's going to be people who move because of the tax question. Far more stay because Britain is a stable, Relatively stable country. I can see arguments for leaving for tax reasons, but I think that's quite a small chunk of people. the tax does pay for the stability. That's the whole point of it, isn't it? It's there to, to generate. So services, health services,
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:yeah, but let's, let's just think let's think, well, let's just think about that. Right? This government has put, you know, they're putting huge debt onto the country right now. They've got rid of the non doms who would have paid nine and a half billion. They're getting rid of a load of people who are going to pay, who would have been paying 28 percent of the tax take. So, the people are going to pay more money are the working class people, the people that are in the, without doubt, which is why, look what's happened with the pensions. Looks what, look what's happened with the pensioners. Looks like, look what's just happened across all of that. The, the farmers, the inheritance tax. They've got it wrong, right? So, uh, started under conservatives because they didn't have the bottle to do what was right. And now you've got it on, on steroids.
Richard Gillis:Now they have got the ball to do it right.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Well, you mean conservatives or, or
Richard Gillis:no. you said the conservatives didn't have the ball to do it right. And now you're saying that the new government does
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:No, no, no. The opposite. I mean, The Conservatives should have stuck to their, what they, you know, a lower tax environment. Instead, they tried to pander to that left side and they've cocked it up.
Richard Gillis:So Liz trust was right.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Liz, Liz Trust actually had the wrong approach with the right. thinking, in my opinion. Yeah. So, you know, we can, we can, I don't know, you sound like you're probably a Labour, but I
Richard Gillis:No. Well, I mean, it's interesting. You make that projection. it's not a them or us. I'm trying to get to the basic conversation, which isn't sort of mud throwing uh, you know, Okay, you're on the left, you're on the right. I'm interested in where the, the reality is, because actually I can see, people leaving because marginal tax rates have gone up or the farming question, James Dyson and Jeremy Clarkson they are moaning because it was an inheritance tax dodge, but that was, you know,
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:but that's, that's not true. Right? So, uh, yes, those people that have got large swathes of land are trying to protect from inheritance tax. The narrative was, let's go and get them.
Richard Gillis:The vast majority of farmers are not affected by that because they are below the threshold that is going to be impacted.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:know, actually a lot of the, a lot of them are, but you, you, the point that you're missing is it's not about the farmers. It's about a family business. So let me explain this. So family businesses are businesses that are unquoted. So they're not liquid. So. Any family business, let's take my business. My business is a family business, right? So this family business, I'm not taught specifics about mine, but you know, take a family business and then the founder or, you know, the The father, mother, whoever dies. At that point there's a 20 percent tax that's got to be paid. So let's just say they fall into that, into that category of, I think it's a million or 2 million value that they've created where it starts to go. Let's take a couple of million value, right? So you've got a 400, 000 pound tax take, right? So at that point, they've got to find 400, 000 pounds. A business is worth We'll have something like an EBITDA maybe of 200, 000. If you take it down below that, because then you've got other costs that come off, you know, maybe they're making 160 grand. Right? And then they've got salaries, their own salary, their own take, whatever. So highly unlikely a business that's worth two or 3 million has actually got any money. So it won't be able to pay. Most of them will not be able to pay that 400, 000. The second thing is because the business isn't quoted, then that. The arbitrary value is going to be determined by HMRC. And I don't think they're particularly well known for being fair. So, so you've got the HMRC determining the value. And then if you can't pay, you've got up to 10 years to pay, but then you've got interest to pay. So what's actually going to happen is the larger family businesses are going to get bought out by private equity. At knockdown prices because they've got to get out and the smaller family businesses just will never be able to get out. They'll be stuffed. So and and bear in mind the inheritance tax tick is less than letting the non doms stay. That's the stupidity of this thing. So, you know, without being rude to those people that, that think it's clever, it's actually not clever for business. It is not clever for business. And my biggest problem with both the conservatives and the labor, but particularly in our labor, where they start, they came in, they talked about how terrible it is. Can you imagine a world where I walk into my office or my business every day and I go. Oh, it's terrible. The will
Richard Gillis:Yeah, I don't, I don't, I agree with you on that. I think the framing and the, and their, the general demeanor and the signals that they're sending in the public is, has been flawed. It really, you know, it's been a bad start. And the obvious point being they've had 14, you know, you've got had 14 years of, the conservatives who have left the country in a state that they do. Do you agree that it has to, they have to do something. It's
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Well,
Richard Gillis:continue on the same
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:yeah. Well,
Richard Gillis:Tax is going to be part of it
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:I agree. I look, I look, just, just so you're aware, my, my, you know, stay sure in Nonrecoverable taxes pays about a hundred million a year. So, you know, uh, so here's a point. No, it's a lot of money, right?
Richard Gillis:It is a lot of money. It is a lot of money.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:so, you know. If I, for example, wanted to limit my personal taxes, The narrative would be, well, that guy over there is trying to limit his personal taxes, but yet probably pays the equivalent of a thousand people. So it's, it's, you know, it, it, it, it's a flawed argument, but, but the, the, the real problem for me is when they say we're going to, like, for example, the NHS, Right? They're gonna pile a load of money into the NHS. Well, we all want better health services. That's a good thing. Yeah on the face of it They talk about How we're going to you know Get down the appointment times, you know with AI right now and machine learning you could create Sitting across the top of the NHS the ability to triage hundreds of thousands of people very fast with the right tech. What nobody is saying is, this is what we're going to do to to streamline this government. Labour are going to throw a load more people at it, and what they're going to do is they're going to put a load of people, that, those people will grow GDP, But that's a little bit like saying this, in my company, to make profits, to grow the turnover, which I suppose works to a degree, I'm going to just throw people at it, but without any accountability for the profit and loss of the business, because the business of the economics of the government is it's losing money. So it doesn't work, right? So, and this is where we, you know, right back to your original question of Trump, we've gone a long way with that one, haven't we? Right back to your original question of Trump, what I like about Trump is, is, you know, is that you've got, you know, he's sort of, The anti establishment and he's just going to do what he believes is right for America. And I think probably his policies will be better. But then you've got Musk, who whether you like him or loathe him you know, that guy's got rockets to be able to land and all that type of stuff on the way back down. And he's done things that nobody else has really done. So when he says he's going to get rid of the waste in the government, I believe he probably will and I'll do a lot of it. And then you've got RFK junior who when you look at the obesity in the U S it's horrendous, most of that is driven by pesticides and all the crap that's put in food and so on. So, you know, he's going to go and attack that. I think if you had something similar in the UK, that would be really good. So it's, for me, it's not just about taxes. It's about what are we trying to do to make this thing better? How do we, you know. Like for
Richard Gillis:Do you think it's about, the government has been demonized over, over many, you know, the last couple of decades. You and I grew up in a council house. I went to a state comprehensive school. The government does a lot for me and I'm very grateful. And I don't think that what I hear is government is bad. And there is a, Demonization of government and the politicization of, of government roles, which basically then leads to favoritism and cronyism. You can see that, you know, Musk's agenda is transparent. Those things have to take place. The waste, you know, the framing of it as wastage, these are jobs that need to be done now, whether the government pays for them or a company that Musk owns does them That's
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:but, but that,
Richard Gillis:he's talking about.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:no, it's not actually what he's talking about. He's not bringing in his people to do it. He's actually going to look at how we can streamline process to get rid of employee government employees and make it more efficient, right? Look, if you think about a business. Especially now with AI, right? The, the more streamlined you are, the more efficient the business is, the more success it will have. And this is the problem that I have with, particularly labor, is, The success is now bad. When you and I grew up, Margaret Thatcher I mean, I can remember growing up and really being quite concerned in the late seventies. I was perhaps 12, 13 or whatever really quite concerned about what job I would get when I was 16, 17. And then Thatcher came in and she really talked up, you know, we're a we're a a country of shopkeepers and we can do this and dah, dah, dah. And it's that, it's that that's missing, it's that positivity. And, you know, when you say about the government, And, you know, we could put our trust in government. I wouldn't put my trust in any one of those people running that government, any one of those front benches. What have they actually done? Right. So, and the same with a lot of the conservatives as well. So
Richard Gillis:I'm talking about government. The machinery of government rather than, you know, the idea of government rather than party
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah. And of course you've got absolutely you've got to have the right people running, The, the, the, the government. I mean, and look, you're never going to please everybody all the time. I know that in business, you can never get that right. It doesn't matter. Right. So whether you are more right leaning like me or more left leaning, it's not about, it's about whoever it is, it's doing the best they can for, for the country. I think that what we're heading for is an absolute disaster under this law, even worse than the Conservatives, because they'll not make it work. And I think if, if, if a government came in that tried to massively streamline and go for growth and get everybody positive and put the right things in place for businesses to grow, which this government are not doing, and the last stopped it it made it, you know, they were bad. as well. And I mean the red tape, I mean, you run a, you run a business, your own business. So you'll have a certain amount of this going on. The red tape in my business is horrendous. And most of it is stupid, right? It's, it doesn't make any sense. So, and it's just some bureaucrats that have thought that it makes sense to do. And I could give you a whole list of things that, you know, I probably employ about 4 million quids of the people for red tape. That is not needed, right? Because some somebody not so bright seemed to think that it missed. And now obviously, you know, you start with a certain amount of control because you want to try and control things, but it's just gone too far. So anyway, maybe we'll get back to golf.
Richard Gillis:Should we get back to golf? There's a, there's a, I've got, there's a, you know, it's fascinating because it's sort of, there's a question I've got, which is Uh, it's do with live and it's also do with the Ryder Cup because I think your tour, the fame of the people on your tour, quite a lot of it is built by the Ryder Cup. I'm a massive fan of the Ryder Cup. I remember years, this is going back a long time, when the golden generation, the Faudo Ballesteros, Lange, Lyle generation turned 50. And the story was that's going to ignite the seniors tour as was. And I remember having conversation. It might even have been with David McLaren at that time, but it was, it was the tour between 20 odd years ago. And it was weird. They all turned 50 at the site. They all had the birthday within a couple of months of each other or, you know, within 18 months of each other. Um, now the problem, as you know, is live and it's, let's call it the Lee Westwood problem, which is Him, Polta, you know, all of the great sort of stars of the Ryder Cup of the last 20 years. They're on the live side, or some of them are. What's going to happen? How do you see this working itself out? Because it's commercially a hit for you, presumably, that they're not going to appear.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Well, it is, it is a hit and we've had Some quite heated discussions behind the scenes, Between myself and and the leadership in the tour. I mean, they're in a very difficult position because, you know, they've got fines to pay and if they don't pay them, they can't let them back in with a membership. And, you know, these guys are big draws and a big draw and I want to get them in. So it's a, it's a, it's a really difficult position. I'm just hoping that I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to get a way around it and I've come up with some creative ways to be able to do that. Not quite got it there at the moment. So, you know, but I want a Westwood and a Poulter and a Stenson and Garcia as they come up and a McDowell and all of those to be playing on this tour. And obviously I want to get them and not have them play on, on the champions tour. So, And, you know, as we build the prize monies as we're doing you know, it would be great to have them because they are a draw and they, they're important. And you know, and it's, it's a bit like anything, isn't it? If you don't have your star players, people aren't going to be interested and they are star players and we need to get them. So, you know, I'm working very closely with Guy and the team to try and find a solution to that. But I think a lot of it's going to come out in the wash when this whole deal gets ratified.
Richard Gillis:What's your sort of ideal outcome of this? Because, you know, we're in this pandemic. It will presumably it resolve. And you're a guy that's always looking for the future. what's,
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:yeah. Well, the ideal? outcome is that they, you know, that they create this, this, this company together and that they just, uh, uh, allow these players to play pretty much where they want and mean, Liv are going to tie them into that, but probably you're going to end up with in, in a few years when they do that, that Liv might not have be what it is in that format. There's probably just going to be this world tour and then they're going to go after the income like I'm doing really. Although I'm segmented to just this area, you know, so, so yeah, I mean, my preferred outcome is that sooner rather than later, they get it sorted.
Richard Gillis:I remember having a conversation. There's an American question about the champions tour and your relationship to it. I don't, I don't know what it is. Is it competitor, enemy, frenemy? I don't know. And I had, I remember having a similar conversation with the LET about the LPGA and you know, that it feels like analogous to that.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:yeah. So the uh, uh, yeah, the leadership out there, Miller, we work closely with him to try and make sure that if we're putting a big event on and we want some of his players, we're, we're, we're working in that area. So they they, in theory, aren't supposed to come into any of our regions. They came into Morocco Which and they were looking at another one and we weren't very happy about that. So we managed to block that. So we are working closely with them to make sure that they are where they are and we are where we are. But as you know, now we're moving way more out, out of Europe, you know, we're in Vietnam and. India and all over the place. So we're building, we're building the brand globally outside of the U S and in fact, you know, we've even talked to them. We had an approach from Vegas to be able to put a tournament on there. And in fairness to Miller and the team out there, they were, they were okay with us having a tournament out there. Well, I, I, I mean, look, the, Yeah, I suppose, I suppose there is a shared audience? to a degree. I mean, as you probably know, we are, we, I think there's the highlight show as well. So it's, other than the majors, you've not got live TV. So, Yeah. So there's, there's perhaps in Europe is not as watched as where we are because socially we're miles bigger than what they are, but as you know, they've got some great players on that champions tour. And my aim is to get those players back. So, you know, Montgomery, for example we've got him back for the next season. So, and, you know, we'll be doing that bit by bit and trying to pull off who we can to work, to be outside.
Richard Gillis:Yeah. I love Monty, one of my favorites. The, you mentioned Rick Shields earlier, just to finish on, what was that all about? Because I saw it was, he was moaning about you. And then he was, and we had him on recently. So I'm just interested in what that was. It was to do with a claims about YouTube sort of size of audience.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah. So basically, as I said to earlier, you know, my, for me, sales and marketing is is how you operate a business. Yeah. So, you know, you've got to be able to market to get your consumers. And we had a formula working on YouTube, which was basically whenever we went to a tournament, we spent money to boost the posts. And on the back of that, we got subscribers and I Yeah, we're going up at quite a rate. And, and I looked at it and I, I looked at how many, all the tours around the world. And it occurred to me that at some point with this formula, we're going to, we're going to go past everybody. So I said to Keith, who's the CMO, I said, how much do we need to spend to get up past them? Anyway, we got up there to number one. So On YouTube, we are the largest subscribed to audience in golf. So that was the PR that was put out. Anyway, Rick picked it up and he said, you know, he started to say this is this is bots. He didn't say the word bot, but he basically said that we'd somehow found a way to basically not have a real audience and his proof for that was that the the engagement wasn't at the same level and I think, you know, the point and he was quite disparaging about it and at the end of his little thing he said And funny enough, he didn't even know who we were to a degree, even though he'd been invited to play on a tournament on the Legends Tour at the JCB so, which he did do. So, so he's quite disparaging, and and without the real facts. So, he said at the end, well, come on you know, somebody from the Legends Tour, come on and and explain, you know, So we contacted him, no response. So in the end I thought, well, yeah, I'll just put something out. So, you know, the reality is if you have an organic audience, like he's built, it's going to be more engaged. But just because I've paid for an audience doesn't mean it's not real. And the point I was making is that it's a little bit like tell me any business in the world of the maybe social organic where You basically open your shop and do no marketing and succeed because I don't know many right and and that was the point, you know, so So I gave my two penneth and he gave his and a little bit of a spat
Richard Gillis:Oh, all good for business. What's the percentage of your mark, your point about marketing is comes back on this podcast a lot just how low, and this is not, this is beyond golf, but sports rights holders generally spend on marketing and you can define marketing in lots of different ways, obviously. And, but something like your core business, you know, an insurance business, what sort of percentage would a revenue would you spend on marketing? What you would define as
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:yeah, we'll spend 10 12 percent so we'll be spending 60 70 million this year
Richard Gillis:And, lots of sports rights holders, even the big ones are low single figures in terms of
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yeah. And, and, and that's been the thing with this, where I'm trying to build an audience, In golf without having, you know, it's not like, yes, we, we sell the spots for people to play and all of that, but it's not like there's a direct correlation where you spend this money and you get this income. What you're doing is you spend this money, build this audience. And then at some point you're going to get the income through sponsorship. So it's a, yeah. You know, it's a slow burn. It's not like anything I've ever done before.
Richard Gillis:it's less cause And, effect. there's an intangible there, which is bigger than would be in
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:there is. And, and, you know, what the legends tour has that the other tours don't have is that my Stayshore million people. So, you know, when we talk to sponsors, we talk about. How we can engage with you and particularly if you take tourist boards because all of my customers are traveling You know when we talk to tourist boards like the one in Barbados, for example You know, we'll send out information about Barbados to all of our Stayshore customers and a normal tour can't do that So the ecosystem works, you know, I can put these things together to make it a little bit better if that makes sense.
Richard Gillis:You've sort of created a CRM
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yes
Richard Gillis:the core within and, and applied it. That's really interesting.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:I've tried, yeah.
Richard Gillis:Listen, Ryan, thank you so much for this. I really enjoyed it. I like that we, we can disagree amiably.
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Richard Gillis:luck with it. Good luck with the tour. It's a really great story and it's a really interesting sort of thing that you're doing and it, because it's a lot of it is because it's just so, it's just different than, than the normal conversations that you would have. So, uh, yeah,
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:yeah,
Richard Gillis:fingers crossed with the, uh, with the live thing. And as that, as that emerges,
Ryan Howsam, Legends Tour:All right, well look, I've enjoyed chatting to you, so thanks for your time.
Richard Gillis:Cheers.