UP459 Cristiano Ronaldo at 40: The New Template for Sporting Celebrity?

Rory Smith recently wrote a think piece in the New York Times titled What is Ronaldo at 40? The article posed some good questions about the nature of sporting celebrity in 2025 and beyond. 

So we asked Rory on to the podcast to discuss, with two expert guests from the sports industry, Louise Johnson and Andy Meikle.  

Rory Smith joined The Athletic from the New York Times, where he spent eight years as Chief Soccer Correspondent and then Global Sports Correspondent. He has previously worked for The Times of London, The Independent, the Daily Telegraph and ESPN. He is a regular contributor to BBC 5 Live. He is the author of two books on soccer: Mister and Expected Goals.

Louise Johnson is Global CEO of Fuse, Omnicom’s sport and entertainment agency whose clients include many of the biggest organisations in sport including PepsiCo, Google and Vodafone. Louise was chair of judges for the sport category at the Cannes Lions Festival and was named as one of the FT’s women of the year. 

Andy Meikle is the founder and CEO of Recast, a fintech company that enables media owners to monetise digital content from £0.01, with payments via RecastPay, a wallet that distributes earnings in real time to multiple parties including affiliates, such as athletes. He was formerly one of the founders of Sportlobster, digital platform which had Cristiano Ronaldo as the company’s brand ambassador

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Chapters

• 2:40 Quiet quitting a podcast is a thing
• 4:28 What is Ronaldo at 40?
• 4:53 'The version of football the Saudi Pro League represents'
• 5:14 'More Mr Beast than Erling Haaland'
• 7:35 Roadmap or outlier?
• 8:41 Marketing or performance
• 10:09 'Piquet is a marmite character'
• 12:52 Revolutionaries are terrible at government
• 18:32 Virality is great but who pays the rights fee?
• 21:04 Ronaldo TV
• 24:54 He likes being famous, Messi doesn't
• 28:16 'I don't know what he stands for beyond doing deals'
• 31:18 Athlete as creator forgets the creator bit
• 36:10 Trumpian tendencies
• 38:13 Pele's 1000 goals
• 41:58 Roadmap or outlier?
• 49:02 Do you trust him to curate content honestly?
• 52:35 Personalisation at scale is what TikTok does

Transcript

0:05

Hello and welcome to another episode of Unofficial Partner, the sports business podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. Rory Smith is one of the best sports writers working today. He's working in the, the Athletic and the New York Times. A couple of weeks ago, he wrote a piece called, What is Ronaldo at 40? Which was an exploration, not just of the player himself, but also about the nature of sporting celebrity. what do this generation of sports superstars want to be and what are the implications of that on the rest of the sports industry?

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 0:36

genesis of it, to an extent, is that I'm, I'm kind of fascinated by the, the vision for what football is that the Saudi pro league represents. And I'm pretty sure my kind of working theory is that it's a lead that is designed for people who don't want to watch whole football matches. I think it's designed to be consumed. through social media, through highlights, you know, you kind of your 20 second clip of Ronaldo scoring a penalty and then doing the celebration. That's all that it's a content creation machine. I think the players who've gone more than anything are probably best regarded more like Mr. Beast than, Erling Haaland.

1:15

Rory Smith joined the Athletic from the New York Times where he spent eight years as chief soccer correspondent and then global sports correspondent. He's previously worked for the Times of London, The Independent, The Daily Telegraph and ESPN. He is a regular contributor to BBC5 Live and he's the author of two books on soccer, Mr and Expected Goals and I think I've read both of them. He's joined today by two experts from within the sports industry, Louise Johnson is global chief executive officer of Fuse, Omnicom's sports and entertainment agency, whose clients include many of the biggest organisations in the industry, including PepsiCo, Google and Vodafone. Louise was chair of judges for the sports category at the Cannes Lions Festival and was recently named as one of the FT's Women of the Year. Andy Meikle is founder and CEO of sports tech company Recast, which delivers real time video and subscription services to sports rights holders and athletes, and he was formerly one of the founders of Sport Lobster, which is a digital platform which had Cristiano Ronaldo as the company's brand ambassador. If you're listening to this, you'll also like the Unofficial Partner Substack newsletter, which goes out to subscribers every Thursday. If you want to join them, sign up either via unofficialpartner. com or go to Substack and search for Unofficial Partner.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 2:40

Ha ha ha

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 2:45

I did a whole podcast. This is it. And we are telling secrets, but I did a whole podcast

Andy Meikle, Recast: 2:49

Ha ha

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 2:53

that it never got aired. So it was like, it was so boring that we didn't want to do it. We didn't want to put it out. And I think the person involved, I won't name, but that, that, that it just never appeared. So, you know, I just thought, well, what, the world doesn't need another podcast episode, you know, so let's just quietly forget it ever happened,

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 3:14

might need to pause.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 3:19

Too

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 3:19

but, you know, it's, uh, it's an evolving, evolving thing.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 3:22

If we don't notice the social links to this, that's what, we can assume

Andy Meikle, Recast: 3:26

Yeah, exactly.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 3:27

You could just sort of, yeah, you get quietly, you know, quiet quitting. I think it's now called the cool kids. Right, I'm gonna, so I've just say, go around the table and say hello, and it's, uh, I'm gonna say hello to Rory Smith, first of all, hello to you.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 3:44

Hello.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 3:45

And andy Meikle in California, 2am. Thank you for joining us. Hello.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 3:50

my pleasure. Hello. Good morning.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 3:52

And Louise Johnson in not so sunny London,

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 3:56

Good

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 3:57

suspect. Good morning to you.

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 3:59

Rainy London. Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 4:01

know, it's 2am where, uh, Andy Meikle is. I've been calling you Andy Michael in your absence, by the way, for three years, so it's good that you've told people don't know who I'm talking about.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 4:15

No

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 4:15

Right.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 4:15

No

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 4:16

We are here. We're going to, thanks for joining. We're going to talk about Ronaldo and this sort of comes off. Rory is the, is the, uh, instigator of this. So in the athletic, what is Cristiano Ronaldo at 40, which I thought was a very nice sort of nod and a wink in terms of what the, uh, what the piece was about. Rory, let's get going. Why? Give us a bit of sort of, The intro to the piece, he was, it's him at 40. What did you learn? What did What's your sort of just general sense of where he is now?

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 4:48

Well, I suppose genesis of it, to an extent, is that I'm, I'm kind of fascinated by the, the vision for what football is that the Saudi pro league represents. And I'm pretty sure my kind of working theory is that it's a lead that is designed for people who don't want to watch whole football matches. I think it's designed to be consumed. through social media, through highlights, you know, you kind of your 20 second clip of Ronaldo scoring a penalty and then doing the celebration. That's all that it's a content creation machine. I think the players who've gone more than anything are probably best regarded more like Mr. Beast than, Erling Haaland. I think they have probably have more similarity in terms of what they're actually trying to do or what the project is about. obviously Ronaldo is famous. He's I think it seems weird to say it, but I think he's probably, have to think of him as the most famous person on the planet. The by all available metrics. He is the most, most famous, the most well-known person in existence, probably one of the most famous people in history in terms of like the scale of his. of his fame in the years while he's alive, and made a really kind of unfortunate comparison with a well known religious figure. People get very upset when you do that, but I, in the way that John Lennon got in trouble for it as well, to an extent. I made, I didn't say it about myself, I said it about

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 6:14

And, and, you know, we're no, we're not comparing you to John Lennon at this point, Rory,

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 6:18

let's not,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 6:19

you know,

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 6:19

But Lennon obviously said that the Beatles were bigger than Jesus. I think in terms of how many people have heard of him while he's alive, Cristiano Ronaldo is bigger than Jesus. I think that is a fair thing to say with that slight asterisk, but it's interesting, it's interesting to me what he, what he will do as the kind of curtain draws on his career. Being a footballer is not just a job. It is an identity to footballers. I think a lot of them struggle with that post retirement and, you know, we're a long way from kind of, they buy a pub and. kind of get on with life. we're a long way from they go and have business interests that are kind of indistinct and vague. And Ronaldo is so famous, he's so, he's so wealthy, he's, he's such a brand, that I was intrigued by kind of, what seems to be his post career planning, which involves becoming an influencer. And I think that is a, is a fascinating switch, especially for someone like Ronaldo, who's always been obsessed with being current and being relevant and being young.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 7:19

and what, okay, so great setup because Andy, there's a couple of things in there and what I want to do is talk about, there's, there's the person, there's the brand and where it's the sport business. Podcast. We're allowed to use the word brand in relation to a footballer without getting shouted at. And then there's a sort of, is this a roadmap that he's doing or is this, is he an outlier? Is it just because he's Ronaldo? He's so big. I'm really interested there at the beginning that Rory said about the Saudi pro league as a platform for Clips as a, you know, and I can sort of, my, my, I immediately, I thought, okay, well, you've got this thing going on. You've got Baller Lee, you've got Kings league stuff going on these, and you've got TGL, which is sort of launched in golf, these new era sports properties. Do you, do you agree with what he's just said there?

Andy Meikle, Recast: 8:13

I've never thought about it like that way. I'm honest, right. But as you, yeah, well, I'm curious as to whether you think that's actually a sort of short term play to build the, the awareness of the sport to then draw in more longer form sort of viewership around the matches themselves, or whether. know, whether they have, you know, decided that that is their strategy. I've never thought about it in that kind of way, Rory, but now that you see it, you know, it does make a ton of sense. I just don't know whether that's just a means to an end or

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 8:39

it's like a extrapolation of the Real Madrid Galacticos thing, isn't it?

Andy Meikle, Recast: 8:43

Hmm,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 8:43

if marketing is in the decision making process at the beginning, then actually that is a route that you would look to go down. Lou, what do you think?

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 8:52

mean, I think it's really interesting. I hadn't thought of it like that, Rory. So I think thank you for sort of checking and challenging us. I think with a lot of leagues and organizations, and we talked to a lot of rights holders, everyone's sort of saying that they're looking for new ways to grow audiences, because their audience figures on, you know, traditional and linear TV is sort flat. So actually, how do you grow those new audiences through the likes of YouTube and other social channels? And I think actually, if you look at how people are consuming YouTube, it's not just on your phone anymore. It's actually people sitting at home on their smart TV, watching YouTube. I think this is actually a very smart move, what he's doing. And what other, you know, you mentioned Ballers League and Kings League and things like that, how they are Uh, Let's see here, And it's a lot of words. So I'm going to use a few of these words. And, uh, Let's see, What could it be? Uh, What's this? Uh, Uh, What's this?

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 10:04

don't they, that they have. So I find the Kinsley particularly Fascinating because the reaction from my circles, which are very kind of, know, defending the heart and soul of football was very much like, this is tacky. What's Gerard Piquet doing? Isn't this awful? But then I remember speaking to Piquet about it and he's a, there's an element of Marmite about Gerard Piquet. I think that's probably fair to say. And, but I was struck by the fact that he's, he's kind of confronted a lot of the The problems that football generally thinks about, so kind of how do you engage younger audiences? How do you make sure that games do have, you know, jeopardy? And how do you make them feel more like video games where the rules can change at any minute? he's, he's addressed them and, you know, if you're my 82 year old father, you're probably not going to watch the Kings League because it might feel a bit Weird and terrible, if you're yeah surfing through YouTube and you see it and or twitch and and you see it And it's interesting and it's fun There is no reason why you can't be engaged with that and I think they have that flexibility as do the startup You know formal football leads and the Saudi the Saudi pro league would be one of them can say, okay, let's, there's two things. One is that they don't have that weight of history, and in the case of Saudi, not like the French top flight or Serie A, where they're thinking, we have to get some money to our clubs. That's not really an issue for Saudi, so they can put the marketing piece up front and say everything else will come behind that. What I don't know with the pro lead is to what extent they actually have a second phase of the

Andy Meikle, Recast: 11:40

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, speaking, speaking to some of those over the league, you know, I know that it's their intention. I'd see their, their recruitment as sort of a, there's two reasons behind it. One is to your point, Rory, about, of course media following and driving as many eyeballs through to the league itself. But not forget that the brand that they bring, then just brings credibility to the, to the country. Even if there has faced a lot of backlash initially for I'm not going to use the word sport, sport washing, et cetera. They've been, it's been thrown out there a lot, but, but the reality is that, They've persisted and that I think that now over time and Ronaldo even some some I've been watching with some of his more recent content Continues to beat the drum about how fantastic Saudi is as a place to live So, you know, I think that there are two reasons It's it's certainly building awareness and credibility and trust for that that country And but then you know, they're obviously recruiting some of the most followed people on the planet including the most followed person on the planet Yeah for sure

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 12:43

That, that question I think is, I've been thinking about this in relation to LiveGolf actually, and we're talking about that in a parallel sort of world, but that second phase of the disruptor is quite an interesting one, because actually the revolutionaries are always terrible at government, you know, you don't want. It's like a six form thing where you've got ideas and things that you just throw out there and something sticks, you get an audience. If you look at Live, I think Live's the best case study for this because it's sort of four, three or four years in now, the player contracts are starting to renew or not. And people are saying, Oh, this is the excitement of the sort of. The initial disruption has gone and now you're left with the same problems that the boring old status quo has got to wrestle with.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 13:32

around

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 13:33

it's actually really quite difficult to see how they then work through that. And, you know, do they just carry on disrupting themselves or do they stand for anything other than just, it's different?

Andy Meikle, Recast: 13:42

about

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 13:43

So I think there is a sort of the Saudi

Andy Meikle, Recast: 13:45

have,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 13:46

league, and obviously the link is Saudi money between those two projects.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 13:49

walls, and then

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 13:50

And this is purely from having a podcast,

Andy Meikle, Recast: 13:53

like,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 13:54

an opinion about something.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 13:55

of

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 13:55

But

Andy Meikle, Recast: 13:56

city

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 13:56

the more you talk about live and the more you talk to people in that golf world, they wouldn't have done live in the same way. Again, they've turned up in tennis differently and the Saudi pro league feels different. It feels like there is something closer to a sort of, okay, this is a direction of travel rather than live, what do you think? you force, and you

Andy Meikle, Recast: 14:20

and there's not too much competition there, whereas there's many football leagues, there's football leagues in every single country around the world. So it's less, uh, there's less confrontation in launching a football league than there is in launching, uh, live golf. But certainly I think that, you know, they've, they've learned lessons from that. And I'd say that. know, as they look to grow globally, once again, they're going to leverage the reach of those athletes. You know, they've spoken about their intention to have a direct consumer relationship, which everybody these days has to have. I think that's what, you know, to Rory's point right at the top of the call, I think, I think he's absolutely right. If that's the way to go about doing that is. More of that short engaging, you know, content that's going to reach people and raise that awareness and whether they want to, you know, for that to evolve or not. there's no need to, maybe they don't care if people sit down and watch 90 minutes of football.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 15:08

The thing that everyone is battling with. And Andrei Agnelli, who is the now kind of persona non grata, within kind of footballing circles. But he used to talk constantly about, oh you know, young people don't like watching 90 minutes of football, we have to find a way to make it faster. I mean, that's, that, that has kind of always been true. 90 minutes is quite a long, I've got a seven year old son. He's not sitting down and watching a football match because he's seven. He can't sit down and do anything for 90 minutes. Even watching YouTube loses its appeal after about an hour. And that makes me sound like a terrible parent. The um, watch it for longer, watch it for longer.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 15:46

are forcing him to watch YouTube. You're locking him in a room.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 15:49

get on the smart TV.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 15:51

Pick that iPad up.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 15:52

The you know, that young people have always struggled, you know, Sitting down and watching a full football match does take a lot of commitment, but, and it's something you grow into, but all the major leads are struggling with it, and I, I think, increasingly, leads are looking at, not just leads, but broadcasters. I did a thing a few weeks ago on the the CBS Champions Lead Show with Jamie Carragher and Micah Richards and Thierry Henry. That is a TV program built to be built for virality It's not it's not designed to be consumed particularly an actual TV show. They they like the metrics They like being able to say to CBS We've got four billion social views that is as much as priority as kind of getting the viewers onto the streaming service It's a it's a gateway drug effectively, I think and I think to, to the pro league, certainly for the time being, it seems that their plan is can we get lots of attention online, can we get lots of virality, can we make people aware of our presence. I don't know to what extent you actually have to convert that into people

Andy Meikle, Recast: 16:50

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 17:12

And then actually, we can be part of that digital economy as well. So I think that's the shift that we're seeing. And I think what Rory you're saying, it's no longer just seen as a threat and competition. They're starting to embrace it that's where the audiences are and that's where they can grow as well. So I think it's integration versus competition.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 17:28

And you looked at the drive to survive effect as well, where there is this desire to kind of access audiences that are not traditional sports audiences. So if you're. If you're the Saudi pro lead and obviously there are complications with it being Saudi and there is, you know, there is the issue of, you know, what the whole project is for same as same as live. Then, then, does it matter if people are watching a football match, or does it matter if they're watching some content that you've produced and put out on Cristiano Ronaldo's YouTube channel, or your own YouTube channel, or whatever it might be, about the lifestyle of the players, about what it's like in Saudi, about here he is meeting Mohammed bin Salman, like, it's all of a piece, isn't it? It's all part of the same

Andy Meikle, Recast: 18:03

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 18:04

It is. And Andy, I was going to just sort of tee you up really a bit, but there is a question. It matters when it gets to the TV rights negotiation because that's where the money's coming from. So, and again, Saudi is a bit of an outlier because they don't really, you know, they don't need TV rights money, but the virality first TikTok, YouTube first idea, that's where the, the audience, the, the, the casual audience has migrated to. You know, so you've got the core audience of avids who pay for stuff. It turns out I'm not a cricket fan, a rugby fan, or a golf fan because I don't, I won't pay for those single channels. As a casual fan, my viewership has gone to the social platforms,

Andy Meikle, Recast: 18:42

yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 18:43

but they ain't paying a rights fee. So there's the, that's the, the, the dilemma that's running straight through the sports business at the moment in terms of if Sky or NBC don't cough for the, for the money, then the economy starts to slow down. And Andy, what, I know that that's what your game is. So just

Andy Meikle, Recast: 19:01

yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 19:02

us a few pennies.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 19:03

Yeah, well, first of all, Rory, yesterday we were at a shop and my seven year old son was asked by the guy behind the tail, he had an Italian football shirt on, by the way, and they said, who's your favourite football player? And my son said, Ronaldo. And I don't think my son's ever watched Ronaldo play a single match. I mean, he's watched clips and highlights, but that is his favorite football player. That's his brand. And I think that's a lot with what, going back to my point earlier, that brand, that credibility, the fact that all the boys and girls in the playground are talking about Ronaldo being the best player in the world, or is it messy? That debate continues, even though they've never even watched the game. But regardless, that credibility is carrying over into, you know, that generation of fans, and that's, I suppose, what the league is buying into. Now, you're right, do they need to, they have continued to say that they need to commercialize their business, even despite the backers, and I don't see With how broadcasters are, you know, struggling with subscription fatigue and the impact that that's having and this direct consumer landscape, whether you're an individual content creator or whether you're a league, a team, et cetera, you've got to have a direct consumer relationship. And that is to take ownership of your customer, the data, and of course, then the revenue. So, considering the impact that evolving consumption and payment patterns are having on the broadcasting model and then the rights that they're buying, got to build towards a direct consumer future, they have to, and they've said that they are doing that, but every league outside of the top, and every sport outside of the top four, five, six, are continue to struggle, particularly with international rights, and effectively monetizing those. So when you've got a player like Ronaldo and the other ones in the league, by the way, I mean, you know, we're just talking about him and of course, you know, for obvious reasons, and I was surprised by the way to see that he's, he's 40, even though I've always known, known his age, he's the same age as me. And so there we go. But

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 21:05

We're 40, that's completely normal.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 21:08

I know I'm like,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 21:10

Tell me about it.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 21:11

but considering the

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 21:12

being full. Okay,

Andy Meikle, Recast: 21:14

the following they've got, they've got to, their intention is to form that direct consumer relationship. That's all well and good, but then they've got to find what the most effective ways of monetizing. And of course, as you know, Richard, for me, I feel that there's, there's got to be flexibility in the way that they do that. Unlocking value from the consumers directly, but on a, On a microtransactional basis and being able to pull in the brands and the brands being able to support that consumption and, uh, for there to be a direct consumer relationship with the brands associated to the leagues as well. There's so much more value to pick up there, uh, going forward from global distribution, uh, than there would be I believe in the future of focusing on selling at international rates.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 21:52

so a sort of build on that if you like. So you've got this world that we're, we're in now, and we go back to Ronaldo. And there's a question here about what celebrity, what individuals do, what the, you know, the strengths and weaknesses of individuals are versus corporations, leagues. however big and small. What, what is happening? Because again, one of the stories of the last couple of weeks is that, you know, Pat is streaming a paddle tournament on Ronaldo's, his own channel. That's not completely unique. It's unusual, but it's, it's because it's Ronaldo, it's, he suddenly poses loads of other questions in terms of, okay, I can sort of, is that a, that's a, Sense of direction in terms of if I'm a mid ranking sport, I've got now a choice between a Ronaldo type personality led channel, a Mr. Beast for sport thing,

Andy Meikle, Recast: 22:48

Double click to

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 22:49

ITV, versus Sky, versus NBC.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 22:52

my

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 22:53

Talk me through that. How, how is that gonna work?

Andy Meikle, Recast: 22:57

There's more people on the internet in the UK than there is in, you know, on, on ITV tuning into ITV. And so, when I think about a direct to consumer relationship, I think about the addressable market. So there's probably more people following Ronaldo in the UK than there are people tuning into ITV. So what is more valuable for the Saudi pro league, let's say in a market like the UK and just taking, you know, that, that statement that I've just made. The reality is that if they can find the right model to maximize that distribution, which is addressing everybody direct to consumer through the internet, rather than, yeah, and I say the internet because I believe that that's your total addressable market. Anybody who's got a phone, anybody who's at home, they've got the internet and they can access Ronaldo, they can access the clips, the football, all of it just need to find the right model. So they should be distributing through. And I believe this for any, any sport, they should be looking at how they're going to distribute through athletes, through associated influencers, through anybody that's relevant. The community themselves, the fans, they should be a part of that distribution. Because there's far more people to, to reach that way than going the traditional route. And as long as you can use the right model, and you know where I stand on that, then you're going to unlock much more, much more revenue going forward than, than, you know. You know, trying to continue to sustain what has you know, been the model of the past. Rory's desperate to say something.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 24:16

No, I was just, I was just, you know, I was just thinking, I was thinking it's, of all the things that I kind of considered Ronaldo might be doing with the kind of shift into, into influence, and this is why I spoke to both Lou and Richard for that piece, that it struck me that to an extent, his, I don't want to say

Rory Smith, The Athletic / New York Times: 24:32

ego, because that's slightly unfair, but a lot, a lot of athletes struggle with With the ticking of the clock, partly because it means they can't do this thing that they've always done brilliantly anymore quite as well, and partly because it decreases their relevance, and I think what Ronaldo has always wanted to be, more so than Messi, is Ronaldo likes being famous, I think, I think

Andy Meikle, Recast: 24:52

Absolutely.

Rory Smith, The Athletic / New York Times: 24:53

having a, having a prominence and a profile, and he's always, uh, It's always struck me from, you know, a distance that he's tried to maintain that. And I don't think Cristiano Ronaldo would be content with being like the 55 year old guy reminiscing about what it used to be like in his day. I think Cristiano Ronaldo's Currency is being current to an extent that the shift to YouTube it struck me was possibly an attempt to to keep himself Relevant to a younger audience that as you say, you're you can't meet that audience on on the television on TV I've got a friend who's a comedy writer who did dumb. She told me the story yesterday that she went to do a little class Near where we live in For, for, I think, 11, 12 year olds, in comedy writing. And she's, the first question was, do you know what a sitcom is? And one of them, the 12 people in the class, one of them put their hand up. And she's like, okay, that's weird. And then she said, do any of you watch TV? And no hands went up. So that is kind of, like, that is not where people are. So if you're, if you're Cristiana Ronaldo, you can't Hello. Hello. Hello.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 26:30

Well, the FIFA, I think, and Andy, you put me right, or Lou, that FIFA, They screened the World Cup in Qatar in Brazil via, uh, the influencer whose name is the same as the Man United midfielder. What's his name? Brazilian guy. Who am I thinking?

Andy Meikle, Recast: 26:49

Oh, goodness.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 26:50

Roy, tell me a Brazilian Casamiro. So the, the, the guy's name, and this is the confusion. Casamiro

Andy Meikle, Recast: 26:57

You're

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 26:57

is a, is a creator in the Brazilian marketplace. And I think because they didn't sell the rights at the right number. In Brazil, they screened it via Casimiro. So the World Cup, that's the only place you could see the World Cup in Brazil.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 27:10

Well, I mean, know, Ronaldo, I often say, Rory, is the, he's the most sports broadcaster on the planet without any live rights that he purchases and distributes. And the reality is that You know, when, whether his channel is on Instagram or whether his channel is on YouTube he's a sports, he should, he should be looking at himself as a sports network or even beyond that, a network. Okay. And so with the right model, with the right content, Richard, we were mentioning the other day about authenticity, his brand authenticity as well. You know, if he's live stream paddle or people like, Oh, why is he doing live streaming this? That's so, uh, that's not what his interests are. Well, maybe it is if there's the right model that allows them to unlock value from the reach that he's got, maybe he is really into you know, the violin. Maybe he's also like spend paddle and maybe there's a few other things that he likes to watch.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 28:05

It really likes crypto and n NFTs.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 28:08

Oh,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 28:08

I, I think there's a, there's a que there's a question. I think Lou, I, and this is, this is a question I had, a conversation I had with Rory when we were talking about it, is that I don't, this is probably someone of my age sitting in the uk. I've got a very UK lens into him, which is Manu United. He's, you know, when he was a kid or whatever. I know. I dunno what he stands for. So I don't, because it's. It feels to me a very, from a brand perspective here, I think it feels a very transactional brand. I think he's sort of forever doing deals and it looks very, you know, old school in a way. Look, I'm associating, it's a person, the ambassador is a sort of weird sort of role that has endured. And it's still, that's the game he's playing. But obviously now we're seeing other trends of he's not an endorser. He's an investor. So you've got that shift, but what do you think of the brand itself? What, how would you look at that?

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 29:03

I think it's really interesting because you're right. He's kind of, he's not like David Beckham, who's done these amazing big brand ambassador campaigns that have driven his you know, his profile into new audiences. You're right. He's done much more investment deals. Of course, he's got, you know, Nike and his legacy deals as well. I think you're probably right that the brand doesn't stand for much at the moment. And he's this legacy ambassador. he hasn't had to work that hard to be the most you know Questions about co cons, final goal, business goals, and visibility. School books and cartoons. Exactly. We're gonna get a lot more people healed this summer. As I said, it's been such a wonderful time for the young, the innocent, well for the infant. So, at Georgetown, our goal is not just to be somewhere on your nose. The goal of our project is to help people know that we're there to be around them. So it's made to help other people realize that it is in their best interest to help people to improve themselves. That's our goal. But I do think the Mr. Beast was incredibly interesting because he's gone from, you know, sort of legacy ambassador. If I say that in the source of more of your traditional brand ambassador to. Partnering with so I'm working with Bop, which is a local trade company, and trying to do things which is a lot of deals. And we're going to do a lot of households, and we just, we just want to get a lot of people into this. So we need to get some people into this, and we've covered, we've covered some of this, but I think the thing that you need to know, is that regardless of your age, size, or what it's going to look like, it's up to you to make the right choice. And so we're going to Bye. Bye. to reach audiences and particularly younger audiences, that's where you've got to go. you're right, some of these, you know, young football or. You know, digital YouTube fans, they don't know Cristiano Ronaldo from the days that we did on Man United and Real Madrid. They only know him from these short clips and the Saudi pro league. So he's got to work harder, I think, to keep his relevance up and drive his brand moving forward. But yeah, I do think the, the paddle is very, very interesting. And I think what's very interesting for premium paddle where he then takes it is a question mark for me.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 31:12

but I'm just wondering what it means, that, that shift, because this athlete as creator sort of meme or trope or whatever it is, trend, whenever you talk to athletes, they say, it's bloody much harder than I thought it was going to be. And actually I don't, he's not a natural communicator. He's like a sort of monumental head. And, you know, it's a, he's a sort of, he's born for that sort of poster. It's like, I always, you know, when people say, you know, Kate Moss is great until she talks, the same with Beckham, it's like a sort of, there is an era of people whose fame was built on beauty and strength and, you know, all those Nike type campaigns. This era is different. And it requires different. Skills and you see a lot of people having a go at it, but I don't see him that, I think that might be the most difficult bit of this for him personally.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 32:06

Yeah, I, I agree. And, and that's why, uh, you know, I, I do think that. Going back to my point about being a network before and finding other content, not only from a commercial perspective, because to your point, Richard, it costs a lot of money to create this content. I mean, one of the biggest you know, challenges whenever I'm engaging with, as you're aware, we've been speaking with, engaging with Polaris, uh, the agency that represents Ronaldo and many other players for, for years, when I brought them on board, uh, Ronaldo on board to be an ambassador for Sportlobster. What I found fascinating was that And I don't mean to do ourselves, Spotlobster and myself or anything we're doing a disservice, but like that he agreed to do it because he loves a challenge. He likes to be, to do something that others that Beckham wouldn't do or that Messi wouldn't do. And so even though he's the most followed person on the planet, and like you're saying that, that face is recognizable, et cetera, et cetera. I think he, I think he sees himself as as a challenger brand still in the way that he takes on like different things like going to Saudi is almost the challenge for him to show I can actually, you know, be the face of this and drive this forward the same way I recognized that in 2013 when he was like, know, spot lobster, it really could go in places and I was in discussions with Messi, Nadal, Lewis Hamilton about being the face. And the deal that I did with Ronaldo's team was a dream. Why? Because he wanted to be the face. else was going to come get in front of him, because if Sportlobster was going to take off the way that we were all hoping that it would have, then Ronaldo had to be the one that was, you know, behind it. It was his, it was his face. the fact he's the most followed person on the planet and you're, you're right, he's, it's not natural for him, I think, in front of the camera I think he quite likes to rise to that challenge, which is why he's probably pushed himself out of the, we would say, the comfort zone of then getting in front of the camera and doing these sort of, you know, podcasts, etc. I think he's working through that, but I do think that from a, For that reason, as well as from a commercial perspective, to find ways to pull on other content. I think that's why the Paddle thing is really interesting because cost to him was zero. And what is the most scalable way for both Paddle and for Ronaldo to unlock value there? My opinion, of course, is that enabling a direct consumer transaction Uh, to take place there at any level, whether it's five pence or whether it's 50 pence is going to be the way to do it. Because the last thing that they want, and again, Polaris have stressed this across all their players, they just don't want, it's so hard to get their players to focus and to do something. You know, like trying to get them in front of the camera, trying to get them to create content. This early days of Sport Lobster, I was like, let's get some more players involved, and he's like, Pedro, my main point of contact there. You know, it's a challenge. It's a challenge. The players are focused on playing football and then, you know, a lot of them spending time with their family. They don't want to stay after training to create a short documentary.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 35:03

Well, you know, I, I, I still, I still bear the scars, Andy, of, of my short sojo on, uh, Lou's side of the table where I was working for an agency who's, and the, the, the campaign was tro So you remember TRO was a sort of collection of so messy Beckham Zidan. And then we, you know, the assumption being they're going to make content. You're going to get subscribers and whatever it failed. And I remember one afternoon where a guy said, uh, we've just done a Eden hazard, Eden hazard said, look, I don't want, all I do is I take the kids to school in the morning. I go to Chelsea, I train, and then I come home, you know, and I go to the supermarket. He said, I don't want a camera crew with me for these things, you know, and it just becomes, there's a limit. To the, because they're so fit and so good. And so, you know, there, there is actually a limit to the, what they can do. Rory, I found your, the kickoff to your piece and, you know, uh, in the athletic or New York times, what are we calling it these days? Is it both of those?

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 36:03

It's both of those,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 36:05

Yes. Okay. There is something, I mean, about the drive of the person, the man, you can talk about the brand and we can talk about, you know, we've all got a root into what we think he is, but there was your anecdote about him raging. In a sort of fairly inconsequential match about a disallowed goal, I think was really revealing just about Who he is. And just that, just mad energy still.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 36:31

the magnesium, So we're gonna get into this first one. Uh, so I'm gonna go this. And there's, it's the new acronym for it, the new word for it. If you know any of you, you know me, I'm the person that what, you know, actually I was the person that was in the publicity of the MPA. you of thing, You could present it as a challenge, I think that is a, that is a valid interpretation. You could also suggest it's a monument to his ego, that is probably also a valid interpretation. But I think that was part of it, I think he felt, I can be the person around whom this country can build 21st century football culture. Saudi is a different case to Qatar. Saudi is a proper football country So, we're happy to support you in any way that we can, because we can support you in any way that we can. So, I think you can do that. of the kind of, you know, the kind of the Al Nasser promotional stuff that was, here's Ronaldo scoring this wonderful goal. And it was him jumping really high against a set of defenders who weren't really trying that hard. And it's 42 degrees and everyone's exhausted, but Ronaldo does, he's this sort of amazing physical specimen is still running around. And then. Then he does like the massive celebration and there's part of you thinking, Yeah, Cristiano, it's not the Champions League final, chill out. think to him, every one of those goals means something. And, you know, we talk quite a lot about the Pele a thousand goals this is Kevin. I'm the CEO of Portas. I'm the owner of the Dugout store. I'm a registered transcript manager. I'm sponsored by Portas. I'm a registered sales manager. I do my own business, so I'm not really the CEO. I'm not really the owner. I'm just the sales manager. I'm the owner of Portas. I'm the sales manager. I do my own business. I'm not the owner. That's fine Ronaldo's and uh, the product management team, And that is maintenance team. Uh, and here is the system, Here is the system, The management team, And this is a system. This is a five figure list. What is the system? And you can see this is a five figure list. if Cristiano Ronaldo sees Mr Beast and thinks, I think I can do that as well. I think I can be that guy in a different context. I think there is no reason why Cristiano Ronaldo, can't scale that challenge as well.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 39:22

Yeah. Yeah. There's a bit, there's a great bit where he scores a goal and he comes off the, off the pitch and he says to the fourth official, I love this bit, uh, Always against me, he shouted in the general direction of a television camera. You always cancel my goals. As he approached the tunnel and still inflamed by the injustice of it all, he saw Piers Morgan, the broadcaster and provocateur, who certainly seems to regard himself as one of Ronaldo's friends. You were robbed, Morgan told him dutifully. They don't like me scoring goals, Ronaldo replied. There's a sort of, there's almost, it's almost Trumpian in its

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 39:58

yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 39:59

positioning himself as a sort of, in some way, the, the, the small guy in this, in this conversation.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 40:05

but you see everywhere and it's the other the other great example of this and this is very much a high horse So I'll try not to be boring is is Manchester City and Real Madrid pretending that they're the victims of some conspiracy in

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 40:14

Yeah.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 40:15

two of the most powerful clubs in the world playing the kind of the dispossessed and the and the afflict it's exactly, it is the Trump playbook, the Trump and Musk playbook, of we have all this power and all this privilege and all this status, and yet we're the victims of something. The fact, Cristiano Ronaldo cannot, I believe Cristiano Ronaldo is an intelligent man, he cannot genuinely believe the Saudi pro league is conspiring against him to prevent him scoring goals. an

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 40:41

Huge if true.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 40:43

the whole thing exists so that he can score more goals.

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 40:50

That's such a nice story, Rory.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 40:52

I mean, do you know what? If there is a conspiracy, the Saudis, somewhere in Riyadh, there is a secret room where they're saying, like, how do we deny Cristiano goals? More likely is that they've realised that that slightly performed element of Ronaldo's rage against something, they might have realised that's not a bad thing to put on social media. That, that I could believe. I don't think it's true, but I could believe it. I don't believe that they don't want him to score goals. I think that would be a very strange approach to their project.

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 41:23

And you know, you said to Kyla and Rory as well, like, don't forget, you know, in Saudi football is just, it's like the second religion. Every time, you know, you speak to somebody there, everybody is like obsessed with football. It is literally all they want to do and watch and play. So yeah, it's such an important piece that it is such a dominant football country.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 41:43

Right. We're going to sort of final rounding up thing really. And it's, is he a total outlier or is this how sporting celebrity is going to evolve? Is there anything here? And this is Andy, you can jump in here, but is this, is what he's doing going to be. Copied. Is it a playbook or a roadmap? Whatever cliche we want to use, or is it, is it just that he's Ronaldo is, he's an outlier?

Andy Meikle, Recast: 42:06

No, I think, I think it's a roadmap, and I think that, I mean, he's an outlier for all the reasons that we've covered in this call so far, but I also think he is, he is creating a roadmap for other athletes, whether you are a skier with 5, 000 followers or whether you have, uh, over 600 million followers. Think that you, they've got the, these athletes, they've got to, they're building their brand and they've got to do that through social. And the reality is that these, the, the sports themselves as, as I touched on, are gonna have to find different ways to reach the, the reach, reach those fans globally. And so what better way to do it than the athletes themselves who are idolized by, uh, by, by the fans. And that's where, you know, for us. But I mean, that's why we've created what we have. I mean, we've, we've created a model so that. So the likes of Paddle can sell access to that live stream and whether it's Cristiano Ronaldo or whether it's me or whether it's a a Paddle player, they can, they can be the distribution and that the revenue can instantly split between those, those, those two parties you know, the media owner, the IP owner, the league themselves and the influencer, uh, whether it's a skier with, uh, with 5, 000 followers and is referring hundreds of people, it's all, it's all relative or, or whether it's Ronaldo that's, that's, you know,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 43:20

Would,

Andy Meikle, Recast: 43:20

of people to watch, to watch

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 43:22

would paddle, would paddle have paid a rights fee at this point?

Andy Meikle, Recast: 43:25

Would they be paying per Ronaldo to, to, or, or getting paid the right fee?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 43:29

Well, that's the question. Where's the value exchange? Because obviously, you know, Ronaldo is more famous than Paddle. So I'm just trying to think, and you know, as it goes on, the assumption being, if this is five years title, whatever, Paddle will be paying a rights fee to get on Ronaldo's YouTube channel. Is that, is that how it's going to evolve?

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 43:46

Isn't he rumored to be an investor?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 43:48

How is he?

Andy Meikle, Recast: 43:49

I just, I just, I just don't, I, I, I don't, I don't think that that's. way that things are, I mean don't get me wrong, there'll be deals that will be done, done like that. I mean these days there's leagues that, TV, and broadcasters and streaming platforms for, for airtime themselves. And so, you know, some may start paying the athletes or influencers. I think the challenge is that trying to determine what the value could be, I mean depending on who, who their backers are, the reality is that many Up and coming sports or leagues. I mean, what's the fees that they're going to start paying, paying these athletes and how is that scalable and how are they going to get the return as well? They need to monetize that content. They need to monetize those rights. So, know, if they're then looking to distribute, yes, you can bring through the, through the athletes. Yes, you can bring the brands in and there can be sponsorship around that, et cetera. But again, I mean, correct me if I'm, if I'm, if I'm wrong here, Lou, but I think the brands are increasingly becoming aware of just eyeballs and actually wanting a deeper engagement and they're be willing to pay. More for a deeper engagement, that direct relationship. And so there's an interesting shift that's taking place between between the brands, the sponsors, between, uh, the athletes and the role that they play. I believe that the future is where the athletes themselves are the distribution. They are not only the product, they are the distribution as well that product out there. And I think the leagues and rights owners themselves, they need to find a way to unlock a scalable. Revenue model, which is just not possible with with, with just advertising or with just a subscription only offering. It's just not, it's just not possible. There's just far too many direct consumer propositions and, and solution and people to follow out there, whether individuals, leagues, teams, etc. There's just far too many for you to engage with. You can't keep subscribing to more and more. So, I believe that there's going to be a much more flexible and business model going forward that the athletes will be the distribution and the leagues are going to start having to turn to that very quickly as their international rights deals start drying up if they've ever had them in the first place.

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 45:48

I think I agree. I think this is definitely a signal of the shift in how sports content is going to be distributed. if that's through then that's great. It makes it more accessible and exciting for a fan as well to be able to do that. I think from a brand's perspective, and it allows more ways in as well to kind of get more but also more engagement with the brand. with that content. And I think, you know, the sports sponsorship landscape is so competitive at the moment, actually creating new ways in for brands to storytell is nothing but a good thing. So, yeah, I'd love to see more athletes do this. I

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 46:26

the business side of it, obviously Andy and Lou understand much better than I do, but athletes are in, in quite an unusual position in a, in a really fragmented

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 46:34

Hmm.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 46:35

like media and fame and celebrity landscape. So there's, we're talking about Mr. Beast. So Mr. Beast, if you speak to certain demographics, Mr. Beast is. Unimaginably famous. My wife, who is a very intelligent 42 year old woman, has not heard of Mr. Beast. I would

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 46:50

Yeah, yeah.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 46:51

idea who, would

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 46:52

But you're, you're, you're seven year old who's locked in the front room with YouTube. Hyped in,

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 46:56

YouTube. I don't want that becoming a thing. Yeah, he's too young, but my nieces and nephews

Andy Meikle, Recast: 47:03

Um,

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 47:33

Throws at you. It's really hard to discover the names of bands. the people producing that music. Because athletes, football particularly, but Andy's right, skiers are the same. Michaela Schifrin will have a cohort of fans from 100 to 5 who love Michaela Schifrin. It won't be as big as Cristiano Ronaldo's, but it will be, I would guess, in her case, in the millions. And that, is something that I don't think, as everything becomes more fragmented, logically it would seem to me, even with, with an in it, in, with an inexpert eye. if you're a sport or if you're a brand, they're a shortcut to everybody. And

Andy Meikle, Recast: 48:11

Exactly.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 48:11

that's incredibly precious.

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 48:13

think also if

Andy Meikle, Recast: 48:14

Yeah.

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 48:14

overlay that with the trend, it's not really a trend anymore because it's been developing over the last two years with this cross culture that all of these different passion points are bleeding into each other. So it's not just I'm going to do football. I'm going to do football music. I'm going to activate my, you know, my fashion brand with art. So everything is kind of integrated. Crossing over into each other as well. So I think with, you know, you said Mr Beast and Ronaldo, it's a great example of having entertainment, football, you know, music, fashion, all coming together, which is what people are wanting now.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 48:44

says there's, there's all these people to follow. It is quite confusing. Obviously I'm old. So I suppose if you've got a younger, more elastic mind, maybe it's easier, but I wonder to an extent what value there is in, in these people almost as curators of, of we can direct you into, into certain places.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 48:59

Just, before you get that, Andy, the curation question, I think is a really interesting one. And it's also one where I don't trust Ronaldo to curate honestly, where, where a deal hasn't been done. So it goes back to Lou's point about it's a transactional brand. I think. The whole point of the celebrity thing is authenticity and, you know, the A word. But just, I, I need to trust that person that it's an honest curation. I don't trust Ronaldo.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 49:27

yeah, but that's, so it's interesting. So first of all, going back to the point of curators, I often think about and talk about Spotify playlists and how you can be like, Oh, I want to let me, let me see what, uh, Rio Ferdinand's listening to today, as an example. And so I think of distribution of, I don't know why I, by the way, I've,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 49:45

It's a rare day I wake up, it's a rare day I get up and say, I wonder what Rio Ferdinand's listening to. So is he,

Andy Meikle, Recast: 49:51

to ask an embarrassing question, be like, does that even exist anymore? I just remember someone mentioned it to me years ago. And they must've mentioned Rio Ferdinand. There we go. But the but the point I'm making is that, yeah, absolutely. They're curators. And I think to, to your point, Richard, if Ronaldo starts live streaming and paddle and you are unsure about the authenticity of whether he really, you know, genuinely cares about paddle or, or is he, is he generating revenue from that? Is that because of the lens through which you look at Ronaldo versus my son, who if he, you know, then starts watching a bit of Paddle, he's like, well, I like Paddle as well. And then there's something beyond that because he's not seen as necessarily

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 50:33

is he using his, you know, that, that's, I guess the point, the difference between him as a, uh, a celebrity channel, if that's where we're heading,

Andy Meikle, Recast: 50:42

yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 50:43

without that trust element, which has been built up, then you're just like a TV channel. I don't, I know that TV channel is all about money, so I don't trust that they're curating it on any other basis,

Andy Meikle, Recast: 50:55

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 50:56

but. If he's using his influence dishonestly, which is effectively what he's doing, he's being paid to flog stuff. Then I think that, well, I think it will get found out, or we have to call him out.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 51:10

Yeah. I was going to say, so I think people then, if

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 51:13

Imagine Ronaldo's face when I say I'll call him out.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 51:16

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I think, you know, then they, they'll start seeing the impact of that. They'll start losing, you know, viewers and people will, you know, perhaps stop believing, uh, what he is genuinely interested in. But I, once again, I also think with the right model, then that is, that's very different. So there's not a model at present that is going to enable you, you'd be pretty upset if you had to subscribe for 10 a month. And then Ronaldo's throwing a whole bunch of stuff up there. And you were like, this isn't, this is not right because I don't believe this is genuinely what he's interested in, uh, watching, Paddle, et cetera, et cetera. Whereas if there was a more flexible model and you were able to dip in and out of the things that, you know, You could relate to that. Maybe you did feel, Oh, this is quite authentic. I think, I do think Ronaldo actually does quite like this topic. And so I'm going to tune in for that, the next one you don't care about, then that means there's a fair value exchange. And actually what's happening is you're democratizing the entire relationship and dynamic between consumers and brands and products and the distributors, the athletes themselves. Because you can make a decision from one moment to the next on whether you feel that that is worth you spending your 1

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 52:32

that's, I mean, that then you're getting into personalization at scale, which is what TikTok's algorithm will do for me. I don't need to follow anyone anymore. It will just be delivered to me on based on my, my behavior. I don't need Ronaldo in that scenario because the algorithm is going to do it for me. That's the problem for him. It's not my problem, but it's there. It's, it's this sort of athlete curator or the curator role. Unless it's someone I think, okay, I really trust that person's judgment and I share their worldview. I want to hear and read and, you know, listen to stuff that they've recommended. I think that's really powerful. And if they can do that at scale and retain that authenticity, then I think that you're, you know, onto something. If it breaks down, then I think. That's the problem.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 53:19

yeah, I mean, I think it would be, once again, I actually think, I think it's a problem depending on what the model is. same reason why, you know, people are unsubscribing from other Subscription led platforms and streaming platforms is because they feel that there's wastage and they start getting angry about it. And they're like, well, why am I paying for this? Why am I paying for that? The same way you would feel about, why am I having, why am I, why am I being recommended this? It's not relevant to me. Or actually it's even relevant to him. I disagree with that. Uh, and that's where there becomes much more of a friction point between the consumer and, and the, the brand in, in Ronaldo for sure.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 53:53

Brilliant. Okay. Well, listen, Heroic Work, Andy, 2am, now 3am in California.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 54:00

3am just about to

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 54:01

Yeah.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 54:01

day.

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 54:04

If you were Mark Wahlberg, you'd be going to the gym right now.

Louise Johnson, FUSE: 54:08

really qualitative.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 54:08

Or Jake Humphrey,

Rory Smith, The Athletic/New York Times: 54:10

Or Jake Humphrey.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 54:11

both of them together in a gym. That's a, that's a podcast waiting to happen.

Andy Meikle, Recast: 54:15

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 54:17

So,

Andy Meikle, Recast: 54:18

yeah, there you

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 54:19

Andy, thank you very much. Lou, thank you very much. And Rory, thanks a lot.