Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP460 Brian Moore For Prime Minister
Our guest today is Brian Moore, former England and British Lions rugby player, lawyer, newspaper columnist, television commentator and author.
If it’s informed and insightful opinions you’ve come for, you’re in luck.
In a world where the professional sphere of sports intertwines with broader societal issues, Brian Moore dives into themes of identity, retirement, and the business of sports, unraveling the complexities faced by athletes and their transitions post-career. He shares his personal journey through retirement, highlighting the often-overlooked challenges athletes face when leaving the sports arena. Despite a parallel career in law, Moore explains that rugby was more than just a pastime—it was a core part of his identity. The conversation delves into the psychological toll of losing a primary self-concept, underscoring the necessity for structured support and planning for athletes transitioning to life beyond sports.
The podcast also delves into the financial underpinnings of sports, particularly rugby's struggle to balance growing costs with limited income. Moore and host Richard Gillis discuss the unrealistic parallels drawn between football and other sports, emphasizing rugby's unique economic challenges. They explore potential solutions, from restructuring leagues to encouraging private investment, all while considering the implications for the international game.
The podcast offers a comprehensive exploration into how sports intersect with identity, economics, and societal health, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the complexities faced by athletes and the broader implications for society. Through candid discussion, Brian Moore illuminates the paths for supporting athletes in their retirement, enhancing the financial viability of sports, and fostering a culture of physical literacy.
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Hello, and welcome to another episode of Unofficial Partner, the Sports Business Podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. Our guest today is Brian Moore, the former England and British Lions rugby player, lawyer, television commentator, and award-winning author. if it's informed and insightful opinions you've come for, you're in luck.
Brian Moore:What I found retiring from rugby so difficult because I didn't understand my role identity was. Because whilst you'd have said to me, what do you do? And I'd have said, well, I'm a lawyer. Cause that's what I do nine to five or, or even longer hours. All I really cared about, I just happened to do law. Cause my mom said do a decent subject at university. And I used to like crown court. Remember crown court?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I did. Yeah,
Brian Moore:I be
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:John Barron was the judge. He was always CJ in
Brian Moore:that's, that was, that was my reason for taking law because I like crown court, simple as that. And then I found I was quite good at it and it was quite well paid and, and, but in the background, when I look back now from the age of 17, all my decisions were made on the basis of could I sustain and develop and enhance my rugby career. And that's how I thought of myself, however I described myself. So when I retired from rugby, I thought it would be like I'm giving up a super hobby, but it wouldn't be too bad because it wasn't my day to day job. And actually, I was all over the place. I felt lost. I felt a bit numb. I got divorced. I probably wouldn't have got divorced, probably because I didn't understand what was going on. There must be that. And so I do understand very fully. Uh, what people are going through,
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Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:uh, WhatsApp group's good, isn't it?
Brian Moore:Yes, it is very informative, actually.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I quite like it because when something happens, it's the first place I go to get a sort of sense of what people are thinking. And
Brian Moore:it's a perspective that you don't get in the press, because whilst all the details are really important, they're not newsworthy in a sensational sense, are they?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:no, it's the background and it's the who did what to who and why these things are happening. And you get, you know, yeah, it's quite a nice route in. Okay. We just go, I want to just kick off. I've got a few things to ask you, but what's a day in the life these days start there.
Brian Moore:Well, at the moment, it's writing, because I'm writing a book on retirement and how to survive either that or a serious career transition written from several points of view. Uh, the athlete first um, the arm forces. Who I believe are the most at risk category you've got for a career, career transition because they are the most institutionalized of people and from a general perspective of people actually retiring, but also from a group who are thought by themselves and everyone else to be inured from the stresses and strains of retiring because they've done well at the jobs and they've achieved and they're probably quite financially secure. Yeah. And yet they do not realize the pitfalls that can come with the loss of identity, the loss of role, character trait, and so on. And many wrongly believe that they'll be plain sailing and find it a bit of an uncomfortable experience when it isn't. Uh, and obviously it's better to be rich and miserable than poor and miserable, but you're still miserable. And quite apart from trying to avoid people getting into situations that are sufficiently serious for them to have to go and seek, you know, psychological, psychiatric, psychoanalyst help just to make retirement a better experience. You know, you've got 20 odd years left longer than you ever had before. Are you going to make it enjoyable or not? Because in my opinion, you need therefore to put as not as much, but you need to put some form, uh, and some measure of the commitment you did to making your career successful, to making your last 20 years successful, uh, and people too often, in my opinion, think. Along the lines of like, God, I don't have to do that again. I'm not going to do that. I don't have to do that anymore. Well, but what do you want to do? Because you've now got 20 years and that's quite a long time to do nothing. And if you think about everything you achieved, especially if you did achieve things, it requires a little bit of effort and it required a little bit of planning and application and so on. And with all those. You can make retirement a much better experience. So, at the moment, she's writing that.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:It's interesting. You say about surviving retirement, it's quite interesting way of phrasing it. And then the, that question about, well, what do you want to do with the next 20 years? Quite often work takes care of that, doesn't it? You know, so life get, you don't have to make, you're making decisions, but actually you turn out and say, right, okay, well, I had to make money. I've got a family. We had a mortgage, all of those things that propel you forward. And then you turn around and say, well, actually I probably wouldn't have chosen that direction if I'd, you know, had a completely free reign. But then we end, turn around and say to kids, follow your passion, which I think is quite a dangerous thing to tell them. And that, that idea that we've all got, a dream role in life, a purpose in life. Again, it's, it feels simplistic that it's quite interesting that you're framing it in that way.
Brian Moore:Yes, well, I, think if you've had a job that, that you just turned out to be good at and was making you money and you're successful at, that's fine. But you no longer have that job. So what do you want to do now? Because it's your chance to do whatever you've wanted or something akin to that, something I think that people mistake, I think people mistake, fulfillment for enjoyment, uh, and by extension, pleasure, things that are fun, they're great fun. Well, fun is fine. Absolutely great. Have fun. But not every day is going to be like that. Not every day is a visit to the beach and so on. So what is fulfilling? And that to me is something generally in my experience, at least, and I'm sure this is the case for most people. The things you found most fulfilling and satisfying. are things that have involved probably quite a bit of hard work at some point. And not just being, oh, a bit of frippery. And I'm not saying, the great thing about retirement is, of course, when you have a plan, uh, because you're retired, if today you don't want to do it, well don't do it today, do something else. Just, just go off and have a bit of, you know, something, but in the long, longer term over, over a period of two decades. And if you look back at what two decades is, your 20s to your 40s, your 40s to your 60s, you can do a lot in that time. And people need to do a lot because all the evidences and, you know, the number of stats that are coming out that people get lonely because they'll lose their communities. They lose their friends because some are still working, some die, and so on. And I think people, wrongly, you know, people exist in their own head, don't they? You think everyone can hear what you're thinking and who knows who you are, no way. No one knows who you are or where you are. No one's gonna come round and visit you if you don't put yourself out and say, you know, I perhaps need some company or I want to do something or maintain or keep or re introduce yourself to old friends that you haven't seen for a long time because they've got busy lives as well. And so no one's going to do it for you. I think a lot of people say, I'm really lonely. I haven't got anything to do. Well, have you tried volunteering? Have you tried going out into the hundreds and hundreds of sporting clubs, churches? Uh, parent, teacher, governance boards charities that are around who desperately want people to join in and help. Because if you won't take that step, then what response, what, what reason has anyone else to fulfill your life? Because funny, you never thought that when you were working, you know, you had to do, you admitted, you said you had to, now you've retired. I'm sorry, but all the honest people now
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:there's a couple of things. One is that the absence of that propulsion, that's what I would worry about in terms of I don't have to do it today. I'm quite lazy, so I probably won't, you know, get faced with that decision. I, you know, there are more days where I won't do it and that's my nagging concern. So stopping work. Is actually a way of delaying that bigger
Brian Moore:completely and of course, you don't have to stop working an ideal might be for you if you're fortunate enough to be able to get something akin to a consultancy or something you can do one or two days a week, then absolutely great. And that will keep a lot of the things that you want to particularly particularly this aspect. The community aspect and the isolation is the biggest complaint. And from that comes. The deterioration in physical and mental health. So alongside the plan that you should have to recreate or maintain the community aspect, you should really be having a long term fitness plan sounds a bit a bit harsh, but some x some some some activity regime that will keep you reasonably fit some eating regime that will keep you reasonably healthy. You know, and mental your mental acuity can be done, you know, in various ways, but just saying, as too many people do in my opinion, that's it, I'm not going to do that anymore. Without saying, actually, well it's time, because I've always thought this, you know, how many times do you go to a funeral, and you hear a eulogy, and you hear, and you think, God, I wish, I wish they'd been here to hear that. Well, I've just thought about this. What about if metaphorically put yourself on your, your coffin or whatever, what do you want people to say about you? What will they genuinely say about you? Because you've now got a chance over the next 20 or whatever years, it might be longer given the medical health advances. Will they be able to say that about you? Or you've been to a funeral where people say, Oh, I never knew he or she did that. Well, what do you want people to know? What do you want people to think? Cause you've got a chance to shape that.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I always think the difference between a good funeral and a bad funeral is, is exactly that, that I want to hear about the life. And I want to hear someone, someone's life sort of recalled right from the early days through. So there's a narrative there. Quite often when you go to a funeral, people say, well, you know, it's obviously very sad. You then lose the person. That wasn't, you know, you might've known them in their fifties, sixties, seventies. You didn't know them in their teens, twenties, thirties. And you sort of want to get to know both people in a way, in some ways. I mean, I did a eulogy at my um, my mom's funeral. And part of the sort of process of that was actually doing the homework of, you know, cause family folklore gets. gets passed down. Some of it might be true. You know, there's, she was in the second world war, obviously. And there were, you know, family stories about what that was like growing up in West London in, in 1939, So all of that, I think is a really, that's why I think funerals are really interesting. And
Brian Moore:And add, but add, but add to that, add to that your early career, your early life and, and school and, and other things, then your career. What about your post career? Cause that can be interesting too,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Moore:if you want it
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:we've got presidents. Presidents are 80 years old now. So they seem to be the only ones getting jobs these days.
Brian Moore:Let's not go into that. It's too painful. I can't.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I think when, when you sort of, we get lots of people on here, obviously talking about sport and the business of sport, I think loneliness is a really interesting subject because it doesn't get, it's not something that people want to talk about. There's a stigma attached to it. But sport has an incredibly strong antidote to it. It's a really good story to tell, but I don't see it being told very often. I see occasionally I saw there was a rugby clubs thing that a campaign a few years ago, golf clubs occasionally touch it. But again, it's quite difficult to frame it in a, in a way that gets people beyond
Brian Moore:Well, I would frame, I would frame it this way. I would frame it this way, and this is where I tend to frame it in the book, is, and it's going to be a big thing about volunteering. Do you remember David Cameron's big society idea? Well, that, that, unfortunately, the, the ideas about volunteering that he had got lost within other things, like the big bank and other things that went down eventually. And the problem is, if a government says it. There's always a reason for the opposition to rubbish it, because it's not in their interest for it to succeed, and with business, I mean, Cameron's, the one thing he tried to do before they eventually binned it after three years was he had a proposal that all government, everyone paid through the government, and all companies of 250 employees plus Uh, should give their, uh, workers three days a year, only three days a year, off to go and volunteer. Now, that doesn't sound much, but that would have given 45 million days of volunteering, which are desperately needed because there are hundreds of thousands. Of not only charities, but as I said earlier on, sporting organizations and also all kinds of things that you can imagine that would just need a little bit of a hand and would welcome that. But unfortunately that got lost because in the political divide, labor naturally said, you know, it's part of this and we don't need to do with it. And some businesses welcomed it because corporate volunteering is a big thing in some areas, some parts of America do it. Uh, and then. Other parts of business said, actually, don't pretend this isn't a cost on us where I'm to pay for this, not understanding in my point of view, and all the evidence is, is there now and I've been doing a lot of research since I, since I qualified as a psych therapist and got my, I got a master's in, in psychology. at Westminster, so I'm now able to actually do and actually read research reports and understand them now, which is a big plus. All the evidences that volunteering can have, uh, effects, self report effects of making you feel your life has been extended, your quality of life has been extended. Your mental health is better in terms of resilience. It can, uh, it can actually produce endorphins and things akin to those that you should get when exercising. And of course, it gives you perspective. Not only do you give you community, an immediate community where you're going into, it is very difficult to become self absorbed and lonely and say, you know, the old cliche, oh, there's always someone worse off than yourself. Well, if you're dealing and helping people who are worse off than yourself, it should be very difficult for you to convince yourself. That your lot is really, really terrible because it's obviously not. And who cares really what the motives are. And I. You know, I'm willing to, sometimes you hear people say, don't you, you hear people who do a lot of charity work, they say, I feel a bit guilty because whilst I get a lot of praise for this, I actually get so much out of it. Good. Good if you get lots out of it. So you should. And actually, by the way, the people who are being helped don't care. I don't think about your motivation, they just want the help. So, that, that probably can't be on a government basis because of the natural barriers to that, not least political. But I think in terms of trying to express what you were saying through sport, getting people involved in clubs, you know, clubs need fix your secretary secretaries, they need people to turn up and do the lines they need people to The changes, all the amateur stuff, all, all those, they're begging for volunteers. And, you know, if you have a few hours a week, which you will do if you retire, then why not do that and reestablish that network and get involved in that because they're ready made for that and they're crying out for you.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So it's hard not to project this conversation onto your own career because obviously I know, you know, you're a famous rugby player who then professionalism was a sort of, you know, it doesn't feel relevant that period, obviously you were in there right in into the run into when it became fully professional. You always seem to need to have to balance. Obviously, you're a lawyer, yeah. So you had a sort of career and you were playing sport. So did you have the cliff edge that, you know, a professional rugby player today is now facing as they come out the back of a professional rugby
Brian Moore:Well, I understand exactly what you mean. And obviously I didn't have that because I continued to be a lawyer, even in the year that I played in the professional era. And the second year. I was supposed to play. I, I, I said I couldn't do it anymore because he, he started trading times. I couldn't attend and yet still, this was the reason for even beginning to have the ideas about the retirement book. What I found retiring from rugby so difficult because I didn't understand my role identity was. Because whilst you'd have said to me, what do you do? And I'd have said, well, I'm a lawyer. Cause that's what I do nine to five or, or even longer hours. All I really cared about, I just happened to do law. Cause my mom said do a decent subject at university. And I used to like crown court. Remember crown court?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I did. Yeah,
Brian Moore:I thought it'd be great to be
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:John Barron was the judge. He was always CJ in
Brian Moore:that's, that was, that was my reason for taking law because I like crown court, simple as that. And then I found I was quite good at it and it was quite well paid and, and, but in the background, when I look back now from the age of 17, all my decisions were made on the basis of could I sustain and develop and enhance my rugby career. And that's how I thought of myself, however I described myself. So when I retired from rugby, I thought it would be like I'm giving up a super hobby, but it wouldn't be too bad because it wasn't my day to day job. And actually, I was all over the place. I felt lost. I felt a bit numb. I got divorced. I probably wouldn't have got divorced, probably because I didn't understand what was going on. There must be that. And so I do understand very fully. Uh, what people are going through, albeit that it didn't happen in the same way to me. And now I've got clinically qualified as well, I understand the other, the other parts of it. But let, I mean, let's, let's go for, if we have time, let's go for the example of Ben Cohen recently saying, you know, I won a world cup, but actually, you know, it'd be better if it had got a degree or someone had told me. And yes, and that's the point. That's what I'm trying to work with athletes to say, look, what comes next? Because you've got to do something very few of you will make. enough money never to work again. And by the way, if you've made a lot of money, you're at risk of doing very nefarious things like taking lots of drugs or gambling or shopping or whatever. So what you need is a proper plan to transition through that understands what you're giving up, comes to an accommodation with that, and helps you going forward. Because I don't actually think there's a moral duty, you know, from the game to look after the 2003 team just because they won a World Cup, you know, they've, some of them have done very well, some of them haven't, that's life. But what I think there is a duty to do for rugby and, and all other sports, and this includes football, who, you know, just been 99 percent of players who are never going to make it, and some of them ages of, you know, from 12 upwards to whatever, Without any care at all, because actually it's not their problem because there are loads more, and they're devastated. The plan should be, as they're going along, as with the rugby players, to make sure that their transition is planned, and there is something afterwards. And not only something that, a job is a big thing, but they've also got to address, The psychological out, out, uh, downfall, which, which will, which will definitely occur. I don't know anybody who's had no problems at all from retiring. I know people who've had fewer problems and some relatively minor. Uh, I don't know people who've died. And I know everything in between, but somewhere, somewhere along that line, you're that you will come into that, that on that spectrum and sport needs to look after those people. But then to do to do that, it needs to plan for it.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:are there any sort of patterns to A good retirement or a good transition out of
Brian Moore:Well, there are 15 um, there are 15 identified well, how would you call them variables as to what will affect. your transition. Obviously, the first one and the biggest one is is identity, your athlete identity and so on. How strongly you equate to that? Because the more you define yourself by what you've done, the more difficult you're going to have when you don't, you can't do it. But there are all sorts of other things. Socio economic status educational status, health status, voluntariness or otherwise of retirement, whether you're kicked out for an injury. Or you get to retire, which very few do on their own, you know, on their own terms. And even then, if people, uh, get the dream ending, it still ended. That's the point. And being an X something, you can never recreate that. You can never go back to what it was. So you've got to find a way either to ameliorate it or to accommodate it, whichever it is. But there are, there are, I won't go through them because of the potential, but there are 15 defined characteristics that come from the research that, that will, that the quality of which in each one and cumulatively and in aggregate will depend, it will. We'll show how well you're likely to do.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:you can imagine on this type of podcast, you get, there's a, the ongoing conversation and rugby is absolutely the epicenter of it, which is the. Commercial viability of it, the professional era, you know, you've seen this investment from CVC and other private equity companies coming into various bits of the game, club game, national, et cetera. And one, I'd be fascinated to hear from you in terms of what, just what you think the state of the game is. From that perspective, I suppose there's a sort of add on question in terms of how that plays, that conversation plays in the dressing room or amongst professional rugby players, you know, in terms of players that are looking at this money coming in and the investment, and they're thinking, okay, they've got a window now. And they're under pressure to commercialize their brand and all these things that marketing people go on about all the time, but just give me a sense of when you look at the game and its relationship to that type of conversation, those business type conversations and investors,
Brian Moore:one of the things that rugby has got and indeed every other sport has got to stop doing is looking at football and believe there are, there is a metric or there are parallels to be drawn in their finance that there aren't. Ordinary businesses do not run like football. It's an extraordinary thing, but now you've got a championship which is populated by millionaires and multi millionaires who are willing to just lose money continually in the chance that they might get a big shot. And in the Premier League, you've got multi millionaires, billionaires, and countries. that are willing to lose money, uh, in the expectation that sometimes at some point they might, they may indeed have a big windfall, but, and that's been underpinned by broadcast money, the like of which is just not available to any other sport apart from the closed sports of, you know, the North American sports. were dealt with in a different way. So when I look at rugby, I think this, because of the, because of what are purported to be safety issues and the changing rules 20 odd years ago about allowing up to eight substitutes and carrying a match day squad of 23, that means each club is now to carry upwards of 45 players when actually on their income from merchandising broadcasting revenue, uh, and get money. They should probably only be carrying about 30, about what Rugby League carries. And I do not know how you square that in the foreseeable future. Certainly medium and long term, because they don't fit. In businesses, you either have to half reduced costs or increased income. The broadcast money is not going to get dramatically bigger until the attendances and everything else get bigger. And they're going, they're starting to grow in a small way. But they will not leap. They will not be like football. You can't use that as the example. And if you're not prepared to cut costs, then you've got to try. I suppose you could throw it open and say, right, we'll take all the gloves off. We'll take the salary caps away. And let's see if we can get multi millionaires to subsidize a game and let's go. The problem with that is it's a nuclear option because if it goes wrong, you could lose a lot or, or anything like that. And also you've got to remember that the international game has always had, been of paramount importance and of the best quality, which is not necessarily the same in football at all. You don't have internationals in the NBA, the NFL, and so on. So that's not a, a, a parallel and the other part of the triumvirate is this, is if Quicken and the RFU don't make money, and they won't make as much money if the professional game isn't successful, the professional game won't exist if the RFU doesn't grasp from the grassroots, where all the players come from, because the professional game does not develop players, they are developed through schools, through mini junior clubs, And the lower teams. So they all depend on each other. They all want more money. They've all got a case for more money. And the problem is at the moment, we're going through another one of these internecine battles where the junior clubs and the championship clubs are trying to extend and agitate on the back of a, an issue, which. It's not a non serious one, but it's a, it's a salary issue. And by the way, the people who got these salaries didn't award them themselves. They were awarded by someone else. So that's where you ought to be looking for culprits if you want to. And as long as they keep battling and not agreeing, then it's going to be difficult. But the inherent weakness is the costs are too big for the income at the moment. So everyone who keeps saying to me things like, let, let the play, let players play abroad. All right. You tell me. What you say to the broadcasters then, you say, well, I'm not going to give you any more money next year because I've got fewer stars. So how are you going to pay for that then? Off you go, because, oh, we'll take more money from the RFE, but which bit of the, which bit of the grassroots budget are you going to cut? Because that's where it'll come from. People, I, I'm constantly surrounded by people talking nonsense in terms of, you know, PR speak, like, you just, you just promote the game better. And what does that mean? As if it's never occurred to anyone to promote the game. What, what specifically does that mean? Make the players a focus. What does that mean? In terms of what? Is it a, is it a Netflix series, which they're already doing, which has only been partially successful anyway? Does it mean following them around it, you know, in the, in the, in, I don't know. You tell me, what does it mean? Because you said it. And I just, uh, the, the, the actual solutions like the proper ones, like Let's get to basics. Let's look at this cost base. Is it, is it genuinely reasonable to do that? I say it is. Uh, everyone who played my era says it is. Everyone who plays now says it's dangerous because you can't have, uh, players who are tired. Well, in that case, it's probably better you have players who are all tired together than seven who are tired and eight who aren't tired because they've come on for 30 minutes. To beat the shit out of everyone. So it's, uh, you know, I, I think it's in a difficult situation because of that. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe throw it open. But you've, but people keep, people keep saying, well, it works in France. Yeah. And it only works in France on big, big, big money because. France is one of the only part, it's the only part of the, the rugby playing world I know, where in the southwest of France, rugby is actually genuinely a bigger sport than football. And therefore, because most of their grounds are municipally owned as well, they don't have to carry that overhead. And because their tax laws are as they are, the French, like the Irish players, get anything up to 10 years of tax back when they finish. So, when you're talking about Conditions and of course, you've got camel blue. So they've got a different broadcasting deal as well. Those, those, those, those things don't exist anywhere else. So when he's when he's jumping up and down and saying to English clubs or or the professional game here or they are a few here or The WRU, why don't you do this? So, well, I can't change the tax regime here and I can't change a hundred. And once we're going to chop the King's head off from a degree or Republican, we'd all be municipally owned, which would be a good idea in my opinion. But, but it's not going to happen straight away. Then you're, you're still going to have these problems. So again, you're looking at an example where there are unique circumstances, which you probably can't replicate. I, I, I, I have to confess. Sorry. Bar the, the, the quite more dramatic things of cutting costs I'm, I'm at a loss to explain how you grow income quickly enough without players having to be disappointed in terms of where their salaries do or don't go. And maybe, maybe they have to look at very nuclear options. Maybe they have to look, I mean, ideally you wouldn't, with the playing numbers, you wouldn't Teams in England being the pro teams, you'd have four, five or six and you'd be playing in a European league against three from Ireland, two from Wales, two from Scotland, five from France, six from France. That would be a much better way of honing talent. And the problem being there is who do you pick? Because in American sports, you can franchise things. People are really happy that clubs move all over the country because people just, you know, they go from city to city. Whereas the only franchise decision I can remember in English sport was still causing trouble. And that was a Wimbledon Dons, AFC Wimbledon and Milton Kean Dons. Now, which is still, I live half a mile from Plough Lane, so, and they're still angry about that, and that's 25 years ago. So, how you get support for, say, a London, the London Division, or the South West, or Mercia, or the North, I don't know, even though in terms of costs, and in terms of distillation of talent, that would probably be a better, uh, a better footing to go on. I'm not sure how you even develop that. So how you get from where we are now. And I just think this, you know, if, if there were some multimillionaires who wanted to put the money into rugby, there'd be one or two that have arrived by now, probably.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:the sort of private equity coming into the game. I think people's expectations were raised that they had an answer because, you know, they look at things in a very cold, rational way, and this is all about, you know, the, you've got fans who will always be fans you've got on one side, you've got a sort of audience for the game and then the story was, oh, they will crack heads. Behind closed doors, they will
Brian Moore:Yes, I heard that as well.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:places in, you know, putting systems in place to simplify, rationalize on one side. And then those profit and sort of cost equations then start to change.
Brian Moore:You know, you know what I'd have said if they'd asked me, I would have said, right, first of all if you're, if you're not going to get more than 17%, you're not even get minority shareholders protection. I don't think that's a good idea. Uh, and by the way let me just tell you about Ruby politics. It is not straightforward. It may not be actually corrupt in the way that FIFA is corrupt but it is very difficult. And you again have got, well, there's just, there are only two ways of making the money, aren't there? You either create more properties that you can sell, or you enhance the values of the ones you've got. Now, the rugby calendar, any, anyone who knew anything about rugby would look at that calendar and say you've got two halves of this, uh, of the globe are playing in different, uh, time zones and different seasons. So one's always going to be starting, one's always going to be finishing, the club competitions, the, uh, international windows and so on are so complicated, unless one moves from one to summer, from their winter to summer, you, you, that is going to be almost impossible to coordinate that without pulling people up here, there, one competition, another competition, one month flying here, one month flying there, I, I, some, I, I, I, actually, I'd be quite happy For rugby union on the, on the professional sport only to be a summer sport because they have the grounds that you could look after the conditions that they could train in, which will be non injurious. The rest of the sport couldn't do it because it was, you know, the grounds will be in summer will be literally too dangerous to play on some of them. But I think you could do that. So if one hemisphere is going to have to move, it would probably this one. But again, you've got the massive costs of South Africa, Australia, New Zealand being three of the biggest, uh, uh, you know, uh, unions in, in, in Ruby union and the, the travel costs are going to be massive wherever, wherever you go. And we are talking about a game, a professional game who, and I'm not sure this is still true completely, but certainly was. three or four years ago, whose professional end in England, the turnover of the championship I worked out was the same as Everton football club, one football club. And when you, when you say that to people, they say, that's not true. I said, well, it's not actually true. It's very nearly true, but it just show the degree to which rugby is so much smaller. And, and everything you want to try and pin on to rugby about that. It's value. As they've found by making disastrous decisions with the European Cup and, and, and, you know, EPCR and, and so on. And with the, and with the Six Nations rights, demanding figures, which they just seem to have plucked out to the air. And of course everyone who follows what you know, which is a very good resource, un official partner, uh, resource is tremendous. Anyone who's followed that will will know. That the, the bonanza in, in sports broadcasting that everyone predicted six, six or seven years ago, where they all trot out now. Oh, well you've got Netflix, you've got Amazon, you've got, you've got the, you know, you've got this, that, and the other. Everyone's had one little dab. Now everyone's had one dab into the sports rights thing, and they've all decided actually we've got granular knowledge of our subscribers. And we know exactly what will work now, and exactly what won't. You're not any longer going to get, I think you've probably got fewer bidders now, uh, because Sky is now rationalized. And so people have got much more savvy about what drives their revenue and their subscriber revenue. So whilst before, and you still get people coming out with this list. Well, there are loads of potential broadcasters. There aren't, there simply aren't.
Okay. That's a really good analysis and of the situation. there's a question I think about the link between professional sport, that, that sort of entertainment side of it, what we watch on television and the professional leagues, the superstar athletes, and where they link to the sort of the broader health and fitness. Question. And we've been doing a, a thread of podcasts with various people on this topic, and I, I know that you've been thinking about this a lot in terms of the, you know, you might frame it as a sort of inactivity crisis and whether or not, sport is the best mechanism or recruiting sergeant for that. What do you think? Just'cause I, again, I've, I've read some of your work on this and I, I think it's worth just pursuing.
Brian Moore:I just had a few thoughts about this. why, why sports teachers never at parents evenings? You know why? Because they have no personal connection with each pupil. Their success is judged on whether they can deliver two hours of P. E. to the kids, which might turn out to be less than an hour when you're talking about travel times to grounds that are distant and changing times. or the success or failure of their year teams, which is largely dependent, almost totally dependent actually, on whether that year has an intake of boys or girls who just happen to be very good at whatever sports they teach. The reason there is no personal nexus is there is no way of, at the moment, that the government says we are going to measure your physical literacy. Now, this is where I am going to try and insist on not calling it sport, because as soon as you say sport, people think football, rugby, cricket, rounders, netball, uh, whatever. I'm talking about physical activity because all the evidence shows that if you're physically active in any way, you are better off in terms of health. Your mental health is better. Your learning is better and so on. So I want, I want to call it physical activity because it can be anything. It can be doing Zumba. It can be, you know, just extending yourself, you know, going down the local park with whatever you want, provided you're active and you're not sat on a couch. And you're not in your bedroom playing e sports. Um, then you will be better off. The problem is this, is when everyone talks in platitudes, which they do, and some of them mean them, and I'll just ask you to nod along for these, do you think sport is, um, important for children's long term well being? Yes, it is. Do you think, sorry, physical activity? Yes, it is. Is it, is it, is it good for their mental health? Yes, it is. Is it good for their overall health? Yes, it is. I do think it teaches you. Things that you can't learn in the classroom, like teamwork, uh, leadership on the field, winning and losing gracefully. Uh, yes, it does. Everyone agrees about the benefits of sport. It saves some people from addiction. It saves some people from, from crime. It saves some people. from mental illness. It helps the health, the health service, irrespective of the number of injuries, the longer term, it would help us in obesity, which is the number one crisis at the moment. And yet, what is the only metric by which we will judge the two and a half billion that we put into school sport? It is this. Are you going to do two hours of PE a week? Which might, as I said, might not turn out to be two hours. Um, and that's enough. Tell you what, all those people who champion sport, I would say it's as important as the government thinks that learning your languages and learning your sciences. You can argue about, and genuinely argue, whether it's as important as being actually numerate and literate, but it's certainly akin to the, the former two as I've just said. And yet, Would you ever accept a child saying, Well, I don't like doing French. I don't like doing the language. I don't like doing science. No, you wouldn't. You'd say, well, you've got to do it because it's good for you. Um, and by the way, the reason we know we take it seriously is we're going to test you. Now, I came up with, and it's not rocket science, I came up with a series of tests that came from Otago University. Some of them are tests that are done in elite athlete sport. Some of them are very simple playground ones, but they are a range of physical tests, which will judge pupils physical literacy, um, both in terms of strength and conditioning, but also in terms of balance, um, and their dexterity and so on. They're very simple tests. They don't require anything other than a, uh, dry surface. Um, and the normal PE equipment, um, that you would wear to school and so on. And from that, you would give a pupil a score, you would test them prospectively at the beginning of term, at the end of term, to see how on those weeks you've got through. If you want pupils, and especially parents and teachers, to take sports seriously, You have got to give them some reason to do so. The only reason why people take learning a language seriously, especially if they're English, we're notoriously lazy at this, is because they know it's going to be on their school report and it's going to be on an Ofsted report. And it's going to be something they have to do, and then they're prepared either to make themselves or their kids actually do something because they realize it's going to be important. I often get this about when people talk about what I'm proposing. This range of tests, they are not onerous in the sense that they are supremely difficult. They involve physical effort, and some of them to see how far you can take them so, you know, until you get tired. But they are not, not fun, you know, in terms of, of what you actually have to do. And yet I get people say, Oh, well, it sounds, Oh, that sounds prescriptive to me. Sports should be about fun. And this is getting the whole thing wrong. This isn't about sport. This is about giving. every pupil a measure of where their physical literacy is. At the beginning of a term, at the end of a term, at the beginning of the year, at the end of the year, beginning of school when they start, end of school when they leave, hopefully to go on to being an adult and still being able to do these tests, because they require no, no specialist equipment. Because unless you, unless you do that, you are not being as serious about physical activity. as you are about the things where you do give exams. Now look, a test, you know, on its own may or may not be fun. Some people, some kids will really like it. There'll be a few who don't because they don't like any activity at all. Would you let that happen if they said I don't like reading, or I don't like writing, or I don't like maths? No, you wouldn't. Because you think that literacy and numeracy are sufficiently important for them to have to do that. But, but when people say sports should be fun, yes it is. But what these tests are designed to do is to give you the benchmarks. Because these tests are non sports specific. They're non, uh, physical activity specific. All that you require between test one and test two is to come back and have better scores. You can achieve that in any way you want. Having fun. You don't have to have You don't have to play rugby, or football, or an organized sport. It can be that you walk more, you walk upstairs more, that you actually improve your physical literacy. However you do that, and however you want to do it, and whatever fun you want to have, that's entirely up to you and your parents. Just take an example, right, this will be easy for people. One of the tests is a strength test for your legs. And all it involves is sitting down with your back, with your knees at 45 degrees. And sitting against a wall and see how long you can sit there for. And actually it's a bit hard as it looks actually. That's a leg strength test. I don't care how you get to be better at your next leg strength test. You can go and play football at the elite level. Or you could just go down the park a lot more. And kick a ball around. Or go, or go on anything, go on longer walks. Um, you can, you can go on your bike more. That's not down. To the school, the school will help you and suggest you might join some club activities and so on, but it, but that element, people are getting wrong. The tests, tests are not designed to be, no, even if you're good at English, people don't like to, I don't like, you know, I was good at English, but I didn't really like doing my exams. Um, my daughter said she hates reading, one of my eight year old twins. It wasn't that she hates reading, it's that she hasn't got the books she liked. And I understand that about sport. You've got to get the things that people want to do. But you've also got, in my opinion, to have the tests there, so that people understand where they are in relation to each other, and the average, and if they're improving. How do you, for example, how do you know if a child does two hours Uh, two periods of football a week, so he qualifies under the government and they're all, they're all doing well. If he's not very good, how do you know whether he's even kicked the ball in a game? Or how many times he's kicked the ball? Or has he got any better? You don't, because there's no way of telling.
Yeah, I guess I, you know, I get it. I just, there's, there are as many people who don't like sport, who really hate sport or PE or physical, you know, education in any sense that it's presented to them. And actually that's their whole identity. And so, it does sound prescriptive. As I say, it comes back to if sport isn't for them, then they're gonna be turned off from this. And it becomes like a sort of punishment beating rather than something that you are encouraging, which gets back to the fun argument, you know, that, and again, we, we talk about this a lot in terms of how sport presents itself in marketing terms in, well, you know, it's all game face and competition and performance rather than enjoyment and. There's, it's not, we had the guy from Asics on recently, and he was talking about, you know, just the different approaches to selling trainers, but that, that core bit of it is the problem and whether sport is the right delivery mechanism.
Brian Moore:which is why it's important not to put this over in anything other than the way it was meant, which is a measure of your physical literacy. It isn't about you doing any sport in particular. Now, if there are people who don't like being physically able at all, and doing any form of exercise, then you've got to ask this question, haven't you? If that person said, determinedly, I'm not going to read. I don't care what you say, I don't like reading. No one can force me. You wouldn't say, as a parent, Oh, off you go then, fine, that's okay. You'd say, actually look, I know you don't like reading, but you really do have to read, at least to a certain level. Because otherwise, you'll get a job and you know, you'll be, you'll be disappointed. Same with maths. And we think that now, the government thinks that, with a language in a science. So I'm sorry. But first of all, people have, people have assumed that there are some people, and there may be a very small percentage of people who do not want to get off the couch, and do no exercise whatsoever. And I would say to those people, well I'm sorry, going forward, We think as a society that you ought to be doing some activity for your own good and for our good. Because, actually, I don't want to pay my taxes if you're ill early and you're obese and you can't do anything. Um, and why should I do that?
The other bit to it, I guess, is that, you know, Ozempic and the new era of weight loss drugs, which are being sort of touted as the end of obesity. So this is a problem that. Sport has not solved. It's had, you know, it's, it's had its 30 year window to try and sell. This professional sport hasn't impacted, in fact, the, the, the results have gone the other way. People have got fatter. The more we watch televised sport. So drugs have solved the problem or will solve the problem. It was about food and sugar, and that's the problem, we all want people to move. We, you know, it's good for us and from a mental health perspective and a fitness perspective, obviously, but the, the big challenge of obesity is, is not about sport. It's not related to sport. That's an over claim from the sports lobby.
Brian Moore:No, but that won't get rid of the activity point of view. And with all these drugs, the longer term effects are not known. The weight aspect might well, uh, help in terms of all sorts of other things. But no one knows what the longer term effects of these will be 20, 30 years time. You've no idea about that. And even so, the actual positive benefits of exercise, as opposed to not getting, not putting on weight, are so big that people should be encouraged to do them. And all I'm saying is, if you had a range of physical literacy tests, where people, and these are designed really, They're not for people who, they're not for kids who are really good at sport anyway because they'll just fly through them. How do you know if you don't like team sports, whether you are fitter, more dexterous, more flexible, stronger than when you started the year? Because that should be a good aim. There's nothing wrong with that aim. What can you say? Well, where is the downside to asking people? To get better at those things outside, bearing in mind, they're not that we're not talking about being good at a sport. How does the average person who is very average at a team sport, find out whether they've made any progress? in a year under the present system, because the present system only says, provided you've done two hours of two periods of PA a week, that's enough. It's not enough. And the way to do it is quite simple. The other thing is this, when you come to an initiative, I'm quite tired of people saying, if this test cannot perform and answer every variable I can think of, no matter how drug addled or improbable, then I won't even try it. Tell you what, you wouldn't do that, you wouldn't do that if you, say you were ill and there was a cancer treatment and someone said, we've got something that's worked elsewhere but we're not sure it will work with you. I'm not taking it, unless you prove to me it will definitely work. My child's not having it. Well, people don't do that. It might, this, this, this regime might not be perfect to start with, but for all the reasons I'm purporting, it's a start, and it's in the right direction, and the main thing is this, if you can then get the parents to understand that it's important enough to encourage Not browbeat their children, bearing in mind we're not telling them you have to, you have to do a certain thing, we're just, find a way with your Kid to be more active with them and that'll help you both.
So where is this in the sort of, you know, when it enters the political realm, where, where is it? Where's the proposal? How's it sit at the moment?
Brian Moore:It's gone like it normally does, they'll say it's a great idea but there are lots of calls on the public purse, I said well it's not that expensive actually and by the way if it worked well in the longer run it would save money with the NHS, uh, through crime and so on, all these things. So it's a long term thing. The problem is it requires doing, it requires trying, and government isn't always the way. If you have an ideological government, like my, when Michael Gove decided to wreck school sport by, by ending non, uh, ring fenced, uh, the non ring fenced money and giving it to teachers, um, you can do that if you are ideologically committed. This is not a political argument. But in any participatory sense at all. The problem you get, the main objection, is from people who, who associate activity with sport. And do it deliberately, so they can pull all these things about, I hated sport at school, you're not going to bully me. We're not, we're not going to, we're not going to even mention BMI, or measure you, or your waist, or anything like that. We're just going to say, these are a range of tests, you scored X. Now, we'd like you to score Y when it comes back. How you do that is up to you completely. I'm not going to force you to do anything. If you want some suggestions, I've got loads here. But I'm just, so you can tell. And then next year, we want you to go from Y to Z. And actually, going forward in life, Um, when you finish, uh, in the 5th or 6th form, see how you are at, uh, 29. Can you still do what you did at 18 or 16? How far have you regressed or not regressed? Because these are the sort of things, like the planks and all these sort of things, that people are starting to do in their 60s now because they're thinking, my God, I better do something. It's to try and create a lifetime, uh, where people understand that physical literacy is actually really important. And not, not, and more important than just talking about it. The answer, the short answer to which I'm blethering around is, it's got no further than people saying oh, yeah, great idea, but it's too, um, can't really, I mean, unfortunately, it would probably take something like a, a group of, of, um, of public schools who have the autonomy to say right, we're just going to do this. Um, our, our, our 17 in our group are going to do this. Um, because we're not a building to a local authority and we're going to introduce it and see where it goes
The more you talk about it, the more I think you should go into politics. What do you think about that? I think I can see Brian Moore with a Hope, hope poster with your face on it. What'd you think? I'd vote. I.
Brian Moore:I tell you what, I'd like the place I could actually genuinely do a proper job, because of my legal background, is in the Lords actually, to scrutinize in legislation, because that's what, what I've done. Um, frankly, you know, if someone, if Toby Young can be one, I mean, I don't see why I can't be one. Um, the only problem I've got with, with, with the other politics is, and this is a, this is a genuine thing, my private life, um, wouldn't survive two minutes on the front of a mail. Some of the things I did when I lived in Soho, um, and that would be, that would, no, seriously, that would be a problem, um, become unpopular, um, and, and, yeah, yeah, but, but it, it, it needs, you've also got, this is another thing, you've got to remember, people who enter politics are not normal, normal, I, I understand I'm not normal, because I went to a planning meeting when I was 13 in Halifax on my own, about a sporting proposal which I disagreed with, I'd just read about it, But I understand that that's abnormal. People who are in school politics, university politics, failed candidate, failed candidate, political researcher, these aren't normal people, and they're not usually people who've been physically that active, and certainly not in organized sports. And therefore, the number that are actually genuinely interested is, is, is disproportionately fewer, I think, than the general public, actually. Because, you know, if you've been interested in politics since you're young, you're, you're not normal. Um, and we don't have the champions there. You know, the ones that I've met in Parliament are very, are very keen, and one of you. But they're, you know, they are not, it's not a, it's not a, it's not an i, it's not an ideological thing that either one side or the other can get. And bearing in mind now where Interculture Wars replacing policy, it's not really a subject that you can fight about that much. So there's no reason for, let's say, reform, to take it up other than to annoy everybody. Um, and so you've not got the champions there, and that's the difficulty. It needs, it needs to be started because as I say, it can be amended. You know, the, the, the point is to get it, to get something done, um, and then see how it goes. Because if it does as well as it might do, it will cost very little and achieve quite a lot.
fantastic. I reckon I can feel an Unofficial Partner podcast campaign coming on.
Brian Moore:Sorry, but you got me on a, on a hobby horse, didn't it?
At all, that's what podcasts are for. Hobby horses, more hobby horses.
Brian Moore:Lovely. Absolutely great.