Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
The Big Idea: Where we talk about the work
The Big Idea is our series where we dissect and talk about campaigns and ideas and creative in sports marketing, with regular co-host Simon Moore, the award-winning creative director.
Today the person choosing the campaigns is Joe Burdon, who is a partner at The Romans, part of the Mother Group.
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Hello there, Richard Gillis here and another episode of The Big Idea, which is our place where we dissect and talk about campaigns and ideas and creative in sports marketing with my regular co-host Simon Moore, the award-winning creative director. Today the person choosing the campaigns is Joe Lipscomb, who is a partner at the Romans part of the mother group, we dissect his choices as we go through. We'll put a list of them with links to the creative that we're discussing in the show notes to the podcast. If you're listening to this, you'll also like the Unofficial Partner Substack newsletter, which goes out to subscribers every Thursday. If you want to join them, sign up either via unofficialpartner. com or go to Substack and search for Unofficial Partner.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Where are they based, sir?
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Leather lane in Faringdon, sort of faringdon hat and garden kind of
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Okay, so you're right next to um, you're probably in the same building as, Home Ground.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:maybe. I dunno.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Home Ground is Henry Scotland.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Okay. That'll be good. I mean, Henry Scotland's a person. We should get on air really, isn't it?
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Well, they were on, they, we had them on talking about their sort of kit launch stuff.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Hmm.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:yeah, I was gonna say home ground. don't actually have a home ground campaign in here, but you easily could have had three or four because I think as, as you said in the, in the show, those guys basically invented what we view a kit launch as at, at the minute. Like the United stuff was incredible. The Newcastle United stuff was absolutely the bang on those guys just to totally get it.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:All.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:so yeah, a couple of home ground fan boys and, and myself and Charlie.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I James Kibby on actually to do, to, I mean, I, I want him to talk about Southampton and all that stuff. He is done down there.'cause that's, I think that's outstanding. Some of that work still looks amazing.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:yeah. It really, I, I guess it just did a bit of a, a test of time, but that was, even when Kit launches weren't these, like super high production, like that was a, a PR agency and James Kibby, who's a bit of a one man band doing that thing, but now Kit launches a, they're like the most anticipated bit of fan content that, that there is now. So I guess set a bit of a trend.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:It's funny it's no more red. That's, they're involved in that, aren't they?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:They will be in some capacity because they're Adidas, right? And this is
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Arsenal joint initiative. Now, know to what extent, but I'd be very surprised if they weren't involved in some capacity.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah. Yeah. So we should introduce, obviously Simon, we know who is back again for more of the big idea. By the way. We'll come back on the Cannes Lion because that's, rumbling away as it always does this time of year. People always get excited. You always are. It is funny how these things shift and how people, sort of different awards that people are quite keen on. Obviously their clients are asking in the creative space, you've got Cleo's and the line. They, they, you know, they're sort of vying and they always used to be sort of local sponsorship type awards, but now it's much more ambitious in terms of, you know, breaking into that broader marketing thing. So we've got a few ideas popping up in terms of what we're gonna do around around Cannes this year. We should first of all introduce Let's have a bit of biography, Joe, how do we present you and what's your, do you do all day?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, so I guess a couple of questions there. In terms of my background, I, I started at, at mischief from, from where I know Simon in, in 2012 which feels like a, a, a long time ago now, mainly working on their clients. But one of the the pieces of business that mischief won, the second that I, I started there was the FA account, which I guess had a joint role in. A, making me enjoy comms and, and, and pr, but also helping me understand for a medium of something i, I loved, which is, which is football. So I worked there for five years, not on, on that account. There went and did a mini stint over in Australia. Came back with my tail between my legs in, in 2018 and I started at the Romans almost seven years ago. worked on the main consumer business there. Yeah. Working on sport briefs if, if we had them. But I set up the the sport and entertainment department with Charlie Brown almost four years ago I think it is now.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:And are they, is are Roman, is it, are they independent or are they part of a network?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, so we're part of the mother network.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Okay.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:if you've, yeah. Our office is on red Church Street and yeah, mother RA minority shareholder in the Romans.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:And is there much sort of working across clients across the, the group
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:there isn't as much as you might expect from a sporting pers perspective. We, we've done a couple of bits and it's not because the intention isn't there or both sides don't want to. I guess it's when in, in the world of PR and in in comms, things move so quickly that to mobilize one agency with one client partner to get work out is, can be challenging enough. But then to do that with bigger agencies and a client partner and all the other stakeholders that come with it, a lot of the time it's easier for us just to to take it on ourselves, which we tend to do.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Okay? So. We're gonna sort of talk about some campaigns, and you've very kindly selected a few to that we can pick up on. Let's just go through them.'cause the, the, what we're trying to do is just say like, it don't like it and why and just trying to get to the, creative strategy behind it and try to work out what the idea is and whether we've seen the idea before, whether it's an iteration of something else, there's a, a sort of anything genuinely new. New, which again, is, is quite a, a nice one. Which one should we select first? Which one should we go for first?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Let's start with, with no more Red. I feel
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Okay.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:probably the, the largest one in terms of like the ambition here is to discuss campaigns and this really feels like a, a, a full 360 campaign, whereas the other two or three, I guess feels slightly more tactical. This is one way you can pick holes in from various different angles. So is it worth me just running through what I think the campaign is and then we can try and get, get
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Absolutely. Yeah.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, great. So no More Red Campaign a joint initiative launched with with the ambition to tackle knife crime and youth violence in London. Now, most people's, I guess, relationship with this campaign would've been the all white kits that they've seen. The Arsenal men's and women's team were in the FA Cup in the early rounds across the, the past four years. Arsenal, obviously fame for playing in, in red and white. So removing the, the red from that. Now that's the, I guess the surface level way where most casual football fans would enjoy the campaign. But the, the whole point of that campaign is to show that Arsenal do loads of brilliant work in the, in the community and have done for the past 40 years. So, I guess shining a light on was essentially fantastic community work, but done in a creative way through PR and I guess the absolute definition of an on pitch activation that has the players involved. Themselves. And there's a couple of things that I think are, are really cool about this and, and I can enjoy this from various different angles. One is I grew up in Ton, I live a couple of minutes away from the stadium now. But also so I can enjoy it as a fan, but then as a marketeer, I guess I can appreciate the deeper relationship that you need to have with this campaign. So understanding that, yes, it's a creative execution and these all white kits are striking and look brilliant, creativity and guess community, which is often overlooked, don't have to be mutually exclusive. It's quite a clever way of a light on brilliant work done where people typically wouldn't see it. But on a, on a mass level, kits aren't available for sale, which I think it is great. I've spent hundreds of pounds on and Arsenal collaborations over the past two or three years, and there's no doubt that I'd I'd buy this one too. And I think it's quite cool that both Arsenal Aidas know this, but only are giving out the kits to people within the community that deserve'em and, and, and are doing the work. So for the bottom line, I guess isn't the priority here. Which, which I think is, is great. quite, it's quite great. It's lasted the test of time. So despite Arsenal consistently losing every time they wear the kit it is, had the fourth year of it this year and is something that I guess is appreciated by fans of Arsenal, but also fans of, of other football clubs
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Just, just so just, Richard will enjoy the fact that Arsenal loses when they wear this kit because he's a Toman fan. Just you need to.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:And, and they're wearing the, you know, Toten kit as well while, you know, while, while they're losing. So that's that, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I guess you've gotta take the small victories from from, from,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:and I guess the way it speaks to experience and, and a lot of the work that we do specifically is this didn't just get coverage in the, the back pages. It's got coverage in, in, in the front of book, right? It's got coverage in consumer press. This is essentially a sport campaign that went everywhere. And so many of the briefs that we get through are from brand or brand in ballroom sport, but their ambition is to, to get coverage in, in the consumer titles. So for something to achieve this so successfully, I thought was was great. So, yeah. Oh, and sorry. Final thing to add is the cause of this, which is knife crime and, and youth violence, it. Unfortunately, it is a real issue in London and North London, but it's not such a niche issue that wherever you live, albeit in the uk, Europe, or anywhere else in the globe, you can get behind the issue. So it doesn't feel like it's something that totally alienates you regardless of, of where you live or, or how you consume football. It is an important issue here, but not something that that, that, that fans wherever your base can't get behind. So, as I said, a fully multifaceted campaign. And yeah, one, one I'd love to discuss further with you guys.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:What'd you.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Well, I think it's outstanding. I mean, I, I, I think it's one of those campaigns that's that's right up there. It to me it's like when you can find that thing, that little nugget of thing, that's something, and I know you say, and it is obviously far more multi-layered than just changing the color of the shirts, but when you can take something that iconic, something that everybody knows, and I'm surprised actually they haven't gone along and gone, right. Let's do the same thing in Manchester. Let's do the same thing in Liverpool. Like, because the, all, both of those teams are also known as reds and like, and, and famously, so. And I think like a, a generous thing to do would be to go right. They can also do the same thing because it's important and we're not gonna be all prisy about it and kind of go, it's, it's our territory. Like, so I'm surprised it hasn't gone more into those and actually that then thought of doing it as well. But I think you take something that I kind of can change it. For me, it's up there with the missing type campaign that, that was done. Again, blood-based weirdly. But, but that kind of, when they took letters out of, you know, I dunno if you know, that campaign, MHP years ago took letters out of famous logos, took the letters, a OA, is that it? I can't remember. Anyway they took those letters out of famous logos of brand names to highlight the fact that they were missing, the more blood donors were needed. And I think it's up there with that. It's something you instantly, you get it instantly. It's, it's, it needs no work at all.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, so there's two things. One is the, the idea is really is is very clever and it, you know, it gets, it's so I really like the, the way they sort of, the fa cup aspect to it gives it a moment in the calendar, which I think, again, works well. If it was just some random, you know, weekend, then it wouldn't be the same. So there's some nice thought that's gone into the, the planning of it as well as the, the idea and, you know, the, the way in which it gets pushed out across their sort of broadcast partnerships. I know that, you know, around Sky, they've done some, some work with them in that way. There's a how long it can go on for and whether it's one of those things that is now just in the tradition, you know, so every brand Will, will quite often they want to get to can we turn this into a tradition? It's almost like a sort of vember type thing, which starts organically and then, dunno what the transition is, dunno what is, whether it's just the power of the idea, but it might be what, how the brief changes in years 2, 3, 4, and five compared to the launch. So I can see the launch being a thing, but it's keeping it going and everyone would say, yeah, it's a really nice idea. Even as a Spurse fan, I think it's a great bit of work and I think it's, it talks to a, a real issue in a credible way. So they've, they've done a lot of the work really well. Keeping it going. How does that work from a of, just from an execution perspective?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I think that's, I think that's really fair. I guess there's a couple of things just just to add, it's been going on for four years now, which I think we've
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Has it really? Wow. Yeah.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:we've all seen enough campaigns to know that even if this was the last year, that has to be viewed as success to have that of longevity. I, I do think there's gonna be a conversation about the success rate of wearing the kit, which is pretty sad. Because I, I know that Mik Arto looks into the detail of, of this kind of thing. But just touching on the FA Cup point, is a moment in time. Yeah, the third third round at FA Cup. But actually one of the clever parts about this is there's a loophole or a, or a rule whereby you can only wear these bespoke limited editions in the FA Cup. So
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Right.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:why it is, is that moment in time because it's not governed by the Premier League in, in the same way. So for even someone just to unpick these different rules and just find a way to even make it happen, I thought was, was particularly clever. But yeah, longevity wise. I think four, four years on it probably will need a, a different creative touch beyond just wearing a white kit. But I'll just be interested to see what that is.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Chelsea did. Thanks Cylinder, didn't they? In the FA cup with their sort of blue and yellow kit. I think you're right. You, you're right. Obviously about the sort of loophole kit. Loophole, which is quite interesting. I didn't realize that that was a thing.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Simon,
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:think you've gotta sort of find new ways to drill into it and find my more minutia in it, as well as all these sort of things, like you say November, they have to find a new thing each year that's kinda like a new little drill down or a new statistic or you know, like,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:I.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I mean, just this last week, Idris has been all over the news, hasn't he? Talking about kitchen knives in particular, kitchen knives. And if you could find something within that that you know, and I know that's sort of, you're getting further and further away from football, but still, if you can find a way of pulling all that together, then you've got this year's thing and you go, okay, bring Amazon into it and get them to agree on a nine day wait. Or, I, I don't, I mean, I don't know, and I don't know enough about knife crime and, but you know, you find your thing, you find, you find your, you've got your, you've got your emblem, so you can then use your emblem to kind of drill down and start finding small little other nuggets that you then amplify to be this year's theme. I think you can keep, I think you can run this for a really long time, as you know, I think it's an on, it's an ongoing problem. That is a great way of highlighting it every time.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:It is quite, just to finish off on it, it's quite a hard one to copy, isn't it? Someone else, you know how these things evolve. One agency looks at it and you see, okay, let's take the gist of that idea and use it somewhere else. It
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:difficult. I haven't seen it replicated.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Chelsea could do no more blue for blue Monday and depressing Januarys or, or could do, or could do actually like male depression and suicide. That actually they could do that. No more blue. No more blue.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:just drip off you, don't they?
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I, yeah. Struggling now. I can't think of any others.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, I wasn't, I mean, I actually wasn't thinking of such a literal, you know, use, copying of the thing. I thought the, the essence of the idea. No, I, I, I get you.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Well, I think as well though, I do, I mean I do genuinely think like, actually, I'm sure, I'm sure definitely Manchester. I'm sure Liverpool has just as much problems with knife crime and I think it would be a generous thing if they were to go, actually we, we, this year we're gonna do it in these cities. I think that would be, that would be a good thing.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Okay. Right. Number two, let's talk about Puma and hard chorus. What is about.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah. So the Puma Hard Chorus campaign it, it went live in 20 10, so right before Valentine's Day. And it was essentially made for football fans who often have this. right? There's a huge match on February the 14th. Yet your loved one is expecting you to take'em out for a nice meal or do something special with'em, quite, quite rightly as you should. But this is a decision that football fans have to make. Do they watch their team? Do they spend their time with a loved one? So the, the ad itself was a piece of content that shows a bunch of hardcore football lads, and we'll come on to that in a second. Belting out the famous Savage Garden song, truly, madly, deeply. It's set in a, in like a beautiful, well, I say beautiful like scruffy, but I guess intrinsically
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Definitely.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, it is beautiful. You can appreciate that Simon. And it's belted out this, this song, love song with like soppy lyrics, but in a truly in a way that only a football fan e ever could. It was quite a, and, and that's it. You could, you could send a custom version of the video to, to your partner. But it, it, it was simple. It wasn't a, a massive campaign. It just showed that PMA truly understands this, I guess, that football fans have to make. It was funny, it was relatable, it was totally on point for for football culture. It went out at a time so before Valentine's Day, which is a key sales spike for most brands, especially retail brands. But it wasn't sales driven. It wasn't pushing their latest trainer. It wasn't pushing their, their latest football boot. And, and finally the other thing I liked about it is. showed that Puma understand football fans. We get the tribalism behind being a football fan'cause we understand how important it's to, to chant out your favorite song. But in doing that, it didn't alienate fans of certain clubs. The temptation would've been to use fans of clubs that have humor as their kit supplier. But actually to be able to have it feel, I guess, generic in that sense and, and club agnostic and still feel like they truly understand the football fans' mentality I thought was, was really clever. It it, it is brilliant.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Do we? Sorry, you go first.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I mean, this is the one I like the most. It probably says the lead. It's a brand bit. It's a brand piece at the end of the day, isn't it? I mean, it's nothing to do with actual, like, you know, product in any, in, in, it's not, not even slightly connected to product. I really like, I really enjoyed it. I vaguely remember it being around at the time. So my thing with this is, could you make it today? Because I, I feel like in a sort of, it, it sort of, it, it reeks in a glorious way of kind of some kind of toxic masculinity. They all look like super aggressive and especially when you get into the kind of territory of like the Italy ones and all that kinda stuff, you go, okay, you know, like, but it's joyous. That's the thing. I, I think if you, if you can get past the kind of slightly police lineup style, you know, selection of.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:I I what you are there I is the reason I really didn't like it actually. And first of all, I don't, I, it's the first time I've seen it. I've never, never, never seen it. I don't remember it at all. And yeah, I, I came away thinking, or I was watching it thinking, I don't wanna be in these people's company. They're, they're, you know, and, and this idea that that the Valentine's thing, was just, it was all very. Peculiar. You know, it just gave me a real, whether this is time that's sort of, overrun this idea and it would've been okay in, when was it? 20 11, 20, 20 10, 20 11. dunno. But it felt like either they're not football fans, they're just actors who are, or singers or they are football fans. And so what
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, I think the, the casting certainly would need to be looked at. If it was, if it was made today, I don't think you can watch the content from here or, or from Italy or from all of the other markets it was made in because it's, if not all male, predominantly male. And obviously that doesn't reflect the way that,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:it wa it's not so much the, you know, I get it. It's not, I don't want this to be a sort of census of, and, and I'm not bothered about, it's all white male faces. It's just that they're really horrible people,
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:think that's the delight of it, though. I think the delight of it is that they, you know, if you started having it and it's got some kids in there and some blokes with their wives, and it just becomes like having a sing song around the piano.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:I, I'm not, I'm not advocating that I, and fine, I get it, that they're wanted to be authentically what, you know, it's it's a football match and this is what a football match is like. But I don't, celebrating that culture is a, is not something I want to do. And I don't, it's, it is, again, whether it's I dunno, it's an interesting question whether I, I've been uh, to it or sensitized to it.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I think you've been sensitized to it. Not desensitized. I think
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:yeah, yeah. Wrong way around.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:they, they look like hooligans.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:I.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:that's why, that's why it works. And obviously ho hooliganism is a real issue, but I think if you don't have them looking like that and behaving like that in a setting like that, you don't have that what's the word I'm looking for? That, that almost like paradox of them singing what is essentially a, really, a really wet song or all about love. Like, you even make it with people that look like that in that setting or there's, it feels like there's no point in making it.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I agree with you, Joe. I I, I think it's the only way to do it is to have, is to have the, the contradiction of these are men normally you would be afraid of. Versus this love song. I think that's, you have to have that contrast. Otherwise, the idea doesn't work. But I, I think as well, you know, like, I think there's something to be said for like, these are, these are just, these are ordinary blokes and they may look scary, but then, you know, they're, they're, they could all be very, very nice people. They just look scary, you know? That's, I think that, I think that's a valid thing to, to go. They're not, you know, we're not accusing anyone of being awful here.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Well, I think the way, I guess there's a question of, you know. Even at the end of the thing it says, I mean, and the line is, you know, love it as a heart equals football. Let your better half know how you feel match day on Valentine's Day. And it's, it's, just feels that bit of it is, it doesn't work, I don't think. It's not, it's not an authentic, that's not what football fans would be thinking about.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:The mechanic. The mechanic, I agree, feels there's a clunkiness to it, but you can see how we've, how they got to that point, right? It's like, okay, yeah, but we've made this amazing piece of content. What's the fan call to action? I, I don't think this is one certainly where I've the mechanic and felt that is, is that the bit that works? I, for me, it's a surface level piece of content that I've, I've kind of taken for, for what it is and not looked too far past it. So, yeah.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:No, I, I, I, it's a really interesting one to, to, to hold up and talk about because actually I'm, I'm, I've just, all the way through, what am I being asked to feel? Am I being asked to say these people aren't what you think? Fine. That's one, that's one route. Or am I being asked to say, it's okay that these thugs. They, they're, they're gonna be sort of smashing up the town center in a minute. they're kindhearted, really. I, I, I couldn't work out what I was supposed to be thinking.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:And what
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I, but I
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:you thinking?
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:think that's the point, isn't it? Is you think, you assume that they're gonna be smashing up the, the town center shortly, and I don't necessarily think they are. I think that's, I think that's a, a, a. Prejudice that people are now, that people are still allowed to have. And actually they could just be the nicest guys in the whole world, but you wanna assume that they'll be, because that's, you know, it, it plays upon that.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Okay. Well, it's good, you know, it's good to
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Did it get any awards? This, I can't remember. I, I don, I, it's really interesting. I don't literally know. I didn't, did never seen it before.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I, I would need to check. I'd need to
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:No.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I mean, it's, it's not quite in the same league as winning awards, but you wouldn't believe the amount of times we've shown this as almost like a bit of stimulus in in a pitch just to show what can be achieved, what was a fairly simple shot and in
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:getting football fans. So not an award, but
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:I.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:maybe, hasn't stood the test of time. But equally, it's something that I still feel is relevant and works.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:No, it's a great pick. It's a great pick. Right. Let's get this next one is again, this is So wiggle and Adidas, what is wiggle?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:So wiggle is slash was before a couple of financial issues they had two years ago. Is a, is a huge online sports retailer. So if you're a keen cyclist, triathlete. Runner hiker, you probably would've purchased something from from wiggle at at some point. And the relationship with Wiggle and Adidas was, wiggle was our main client. And then Adidas were one of the brands that the, that the retailer stock. So essentially had a bit of dual client for, this campaign. Both of their ambitions was to make the outdoors feel like a place for everybody, which feels obvious, but as I've come on to, sadly it wasn't. And this is a, this is a self norm. Just for full transparency, this is a campaign that I guess put the sports department of the Romans on the map three years ago despite the main agency putting out great creative work for, for seven years before that, we saw a news article of, it was a, a group of Muslim hikers, and they were. Given racist abuse, both in person and online, simply for going for a walk on Christmas Day, people saying things like go back to where you're from. You shouldn't be here, et cetera, et cetera. Which is it's mind blowing. And we saw this article on Christmas Day and we already had a, a relationship with, with Harun and the Muslim hikers group as an, as an agency in the past. And given that we had these clients, we spoke to'em and said, and we said, look, we've seen this has happened. This is obviously terrible. What are we gonna do about it? So yes, we had an internal agency creative process and brainstorms about it, but also with consultation with the group, we did two different things. Thing number one. Was, we created the world's first weatherproof prayer mat. And why did we do that? Because cleanliness and hygiene is a key pillar of the of the Muslim faith, and they pray up to five times a day. Typically, when this group had been out walking and the weather hadn't been great, they'd use any waterproof item they could find, be it a coat, be it a backpack, even a bin bag, if it's, if it's really wet. So we created this bespoke item, and similar to the normal red campaign, this wasn't something that you could buy. It was something that was only available either through the group or through the wiggle website. The second thing we did was we placed signposts to to Mecca on, on these hiking cha trails. So Muslims pray up to five times a day, and they do so in the direction of Mecca. Now there are apps that can tell you which way to, to pray in and, and Ha room was really clear about this. So yes, it did serve a, a functional purpose, but the main objective of of these was to show people that the outdoors actually is a place for everyone. And that yeah, all groups, however you decide to enjoy the outdoors have, have been considered. And yeah, the campaign yes, won a ton of awards got national headlines. It was criticized by GB News, which I think is the litmus test if you know you've done a, a good campaign or, or not. And most importantly it showed that that hiking is, is for everyone. So yeah, certainly won that, myself and, and the agency's really proud of.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Simon.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Okay. So, first things first. I don't like the outdoors. So the outdoors definitely isn't for me. I dislike the countryside intensely. Anyone who wants to go there, do you know, good for you, don't make me go. So. That being said, of course, anything that encourages people to go out and do these sort of things and you know, is brilliant and great. My only issue with this, right, is the signage, is I think there's too much signage everywhere to start with, and I just don't want more signage in the countryside. That's my only problem. Like, I'm not like desperately trying to like preserve the countryside. I'd like to take down some of the signage in cities. There's just too much of it, and I'm like, just stop the sign, like the rest of it. I'm all like, that's great, but stop the signage. Don't need more signage. So, but yes, I think that in all seriousness it's a great campaign because it's tapped into a, a real news story, which is always a, a good thing and identified a niche. So, you know, and that's always when you're trying to drive stories from the back page to the front page. I think probably if I had any kind of proper niggle with it, it's that Adidas being a part of this. I've not seen Adidas do anything else. In this kind of hiking, rambling kind of space. And so it feels like they're suddenly in there and you go, it's not really, you know, we always talk about brands like trying to sort of in, in insert themselves into things which aren't necessarily their space, and I don't really see this necessarily as Adidas space. Wiggle, of course, has completely legit reason to be there, but the Aidas name on it to me seems a bit you. I think you are just trying to insert yourself into a space that you've not really played in before.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, I think, I think that's, that's really fair. So a, a couple of things that Aidas did. Make a one-off donation. So it's worth just, just flagging that to various groups that, that work in a outdoors diversity space. But point, which I know was, was said, tongue in cheek, funnily enough, you know, we, you asked me before to have a think about what could have made this campaign better and what would've definitely made this campaign better is if the National Trust had officially got on board and for, for some reason, be it too much signage, be it that they didn't want to.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:A signage.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:yeah, I think it might be the signage, but if they'd fully got on board, this could have been been so much bigger, but yeah, sadly they didn't want it.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:when was this made? A couple of years ago.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:I wonder if they'd make it today. I was watching this, and again, this is from a perspective of a someone who I like the sentiment of it, and I know that north face, we had North Face on, of last year, and they had a similar, there's a similar sort of campaign there in relation to sort of diversity and inclusion in the British countryside. I wonder about big brands making statements around diversity and inclusion and, because you know, when you said, well, we would all agree with it, and it that isn't true. There's lots of people who don't agree with this and you know, you only gotta look American, sort of domestic policy now is this wouldn't see the light of day. And it'd be interesting, you know, you've got campaigns like sort of campaigners like Robbie Starbuck who is going around, you know, trying to sort of, go after shareholders of, of companies who supposedly, you know, are putting their DEI, every company is putting their DEI, you know, are we for it against it? Are we coming, rolling back or forward? I sense there's a, that issue is coming to, well, it's not my sense, it's obvious that it's coming towards sports marketing. Very quickly as we speak, I wonder if they would've been quite as explicit had it been. Now
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:there's,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:you think?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:there's, there's no doubt. it that for a brand, the size of Adidas to get on board did take an element of bravery for want of a better word, from the, the client. We were we were working within, I, I guess what made all groups feel comfortable with this
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:I.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:that it was made truly in collaboration with Haroun and the Muslim hikers group. This wasn't an agency and a couple of brands set. Having a brainstorm being, oh, this could work. This was a real life issue that we have seen reported heavily in the news. And then a brand and a group doing something to try and combat it and try and open people's minds to the outdoors. Being for everyone, so to say, whether people would make it now or not is, is hard to say. But I guess the reason it was done then is because the new story ha happened then, and this was a, a reaction to something that sadly did happen in real life.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:what are the sort of ethics of, not ethics is the wrong word, but just in terms of taking a news story and making a campaign out of it, obviously the accusation against. Sometimes journalists do it and you know, you you, you land on a news story, something happened, something horrible has happened, then it gets blown into a bigger question and people want to make it into a sort of campaigning idea that, that, you know, we are now going to highlight an issue in society based on that's happened. And I think when I see it, again, when people do it, that I don't agree with, I think, oh, well you're just, you know, you are just politicizing an event. But I wonder also, again, just uber conscious of how this, the mood music now and any mention of, of diversity and inclusion, these were, these seem to be uncontroversial words, know, that, that a few years ago are now deeply politicized. It's quite interesting. I dunno what quite how that works.'cause Cy, you said, you know, it'd be great in, and that is great PR to get into a, an issue that's, it's like the knife crime issue, but how to do it and where to tread again, you've got the layer of, you know, it's the sort of Republicans bias sneakers two argument that actually is a large proportion, a large group of people in the population who would look at this and say, and be annoyed by it.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I think you're right. I think there are, I mean, the interesting thing that's happened since Trump winning, and that's, and this isn't unique to Trump, is it? I mean, we've seen, we've seen the right, get elected in Austria and Italy and almost yet in France, certainly probably in the next month in Germany, like, you know, there's been, there's been pockets of, right. And certainly populism is on the rise. And I think when that connects to where it overlaps with brands is that, and I had literally had this conversation the other day with a friend of mine. He's going, I can't believe I can't, you know, I can't believe Zuckerberg, like, you know, and, and my attitude is for lots of, and I'm not saying this in the case of Adidas or any of those, but for lots of brands, they didn't really care in the first place. They just went where the wind blows and now the wind's blowing in a different direction and that's where they're going. And it like, it's foolish to think that they ever, you know, they just went where the political winds went. And so, yes, I think you're right. This might not be made these days because they go all the political winds blown in a different direction and that's where we'll go. So I,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:the, the accusation of virtue signaling is, was true.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I, I think for lots of, you know, I mean certainly you can't say, certainly for Meta, you can't suddenly go, oh no, they weren't virtually, they really meant it then, but they really don't mean it now. I mean, of course it was virtual signal. It has to be, you know, so I would say, but I mean, you know, if we get Metro on next week, I'll be going, oh no, I'm sure you were doing the right.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, I think I, I guess it's probably worth taking it back to the, I I, I see what you're saying around, would this be made now based on online discourse and the way people are voting a across the planet, but even whichever way you lean politically, most right-minded think right-minded thinking people would agree that getting abused for going on a walk is wrong.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Oh.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:and, I know, and I know that, that you're not disagreeing with that. So I just, I feel like, yeah, it, it may, we may meet more barriers and actually a load of people posted underneath the content on, on X or, or Twitter as it was then saying, I'm never gonna buy from ADAS again. And who's to say that if we hadn't made the campaign, there'd be more posts like that. It's, it's hard to say, but I guess the crux of the idea and the thinking I. Of the idea came from a place of wanting to democratize outdoors and making it feel like a place for everyone.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, yeah. No, I get it. And, and you know, it, it's, I I think there'll be a sort of flight to safety in some cases. They'll find other territory to market themselves around and they'll sort of step back from type of material, which is a shame.'cause I think it's interesting that they then choose to, do it. And I think it, again, technically, I always, I think it's a, it's a nice campaign. I watched it, I thought Okay, but again, it's like the, the football fan one. I was wondering about time and the fashion for certain ideas comes and goes. And marketing is always in that. brands always using the term, you know, they want to be culturally relevant. And that's, that's it sounds quite on the surface. You go, okay, well that's fine, but it really means and how that actually manifests, I think is quite significant. And I, you know, it'd be interesting to see how they go, particularly as now things much more, you know, they're playing for a global audience rather than a local one quite often. So I know this looked like a local campaign, but it's, there is no such thing as a local campaign these days. Everything is now, you know, visible. So it be, again, all of that moves towards boring content. I guess. That's the, that's what we're saying. There will be a sort of shift to the center there'll alone be a few maverick brands who want to make a noise on the margins rather than, you know, and so actually the big money will just to the mainstream.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I, I, I would say that PR and, and comms has to be a moment in time to a point, right. Because it's based on the news and things that are, are happening right, right now. So campaigns that are media driven and PR driven. Yeah. They, they will, I mean, you can look at it in various different ways. You could, you could cynically say move, moving with the win. Or you could say, being reactionary to, to what is actually happening in a way that I don't feel like above the line probably has to, whether that's replicated in the way that brands think can and focus their marketing is hard to say, but certainly from a. PR standpoint with lead times on briefs and the, the idea that we need to be quick and nimble with things. I think yeah, we, we are reactionary to the news and that's, that's the beauty of it in, in some ways.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:quite, that's an interesting point actually. I, I mean, so you, you are a PR agency, so it's the ambition is Earned Media,
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Exactly. I.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:which is different from Mother, which is obviously an ad ad agency.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:hadn't really sort of thought that,'cause actually, Cy, what do you,'cause you've done a lot with, you know, obviously PR led
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:creative.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:yeah. Yeah.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:What is the difference?'cause when I see that, I don't make, you know, again, time does it no favors.'cause actually now I'm looking at it and thinking, well this is a brand piece by Adidas. It's not a PR
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:The, the,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:piece.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:the obvious, the obvious difference is that you have to be creating things that people want to see. Now, normally that's through the filter of some kind of media channel. So somebody will already controls that media channel will then choose to put that out to their audience, but under the impression that it is something their audience would want. Therefore, you are adding value to their whatever channel it is, in newspaper, et cetera, et cetera. So that would be the, that would be the ideal is that you are creating things that people actually want to see. Where it's in advertising, you are creating things that people have to see. You know, they don't, it doesn't, it doesn't, you know, ideally advertising appeals, but it's, it's not, its appeal is. It's slightly different to how we have to, in, in the world of pr. We have to create things that people are keen to see that they're, you know, they want to see. So I think that that's probably the big difference. I think to answer your point, Joe, that the, that, whilst you have to be undoubtedly a hundred percent, you know, reactive all the time to what's going on within the culture, the best, the best work, the very best work, the work that stands, the test of time talks to something more universal and more, and has more longevity. It talks more to something that's human rather than just, which, you know, no more red probably does no more. Red is not about a moment in time. It's not about a, it's about something far more uni universal and, and has longevity to it. And therefore it feels powerful and important. And, and I think the best campaigns, that's what they do.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:So the argument from the adver from a above the line or an advertising agency or the creative, agency would be, I'm just trying to think that through because you'd actually, the risk is an inconsistency in the brand positioning because you'd say, right, okay, we're gonna go after this, moment in time, this new story, and we are gonna, we are gonna create a piece of, you know, a campaign or an advi, a piece of, creative, but there is a short term objective to that. Whereas obviously a creative is looking at a brand over, over, you know, brand management is a longer term
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I don't think, I don't, not in the world of pr You're not, you're not going in When a word in a world of earned media, you're not going well, whatever the news is, we'll find a way of hijacking and piggybacking onto it. I mean, I think you're, you're, you're going, this would be a good fit for us. This would be right for the time. This is who we are. We, we, you know, in the Venn diagram of this that's happening and us, there's a nice overlap that we can occupy and that, and that in turn builds your, your brand message creatively. I don't, I don't think you're just going scatter, go, well, it doesn't really matter what we do, as long as we can get our logo on it, that's fine. You know, I think it's different to that.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah. But I then I again, but you then also said that Adidas,
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, no, and, and in that, in that respect,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:I like you, I didn't, I don't position Adidas and walking in the
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:no,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:I, you
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:no. And,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:something.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:in that respect, that, that would be my criticism of it, is it's not, it's not an added aspect. You know, I think it's a great piece of work, but it's not, so I'm not saying. Earned media always gets it a hundred percent right? Just like advertising doesn't. I think that you know, the, like I said, the best of the work you do is not, it builds logically with the, the, the zeitgeist to, to say we are part of, we are part of the conversation that's going on in the world. We fit with you, we are part of your world.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:And is that the tension, Joe, that, that between agencies, it could even be, you know, within, not even within a network if somewhere else someone is owning the brand, then you, you, you are the, the PR arm there is, I can see a tension there between those two things. Is that, is that conflict real?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I wouldn't look at it that simplistically in that often the PR agency can be tasked with defining brand strategy. So it's not, as Simon says, a case of creative agency or ad agency defining the brand direction and pr having to decide to play within the lines or go off strategy and, and, and make some headlines. This said, as, as we said before, the news is, is the news, right? And there, there is an ambition to, to turn things around a, a little bit quickly. We don't always have the lead times that huge above the line campaigns have, have got the, the luxury of, so I wouldn't say it's a, a tension between being on strategy or being on brand and, and not being on brand so much. I guess it's just a PR agency, we have to make work that. Media titles want to write about. So for example, this campaign really be judged on the, the quality of the images or the, the content. Even though that's one of the factors it should be judged on, did all the titles that we want to write about this cover it? Because if Hype Beast hadn't covered it and ma mainstream news titles hadn't covered it, then the campaign couldn't be viewed as success. So that's, that's kind of my take on it. And then on the Adidas front, easy to say it's not Adidas, but it's such a big organization with a, I guess, a point of view of so many different sports. Like we've discussed normal red that yeah, you guys may not think that this is an Aidas piece of work, but Adidas TerraX is a whole sub sub-brand of Adidas and all of their work is done in the outdoor space. So. I would be interested to challenge people who already identified or consumed Aidas or bought Aidas TerraX products if they thought that this campaign fitted from a brand perspective. And I think the answer may be different.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, I'd never heard of TerraX. Actually, haven't, I I, I sit here like I, I've never heard, I've, I'm in a complete vacuum. I don't, I've never heard of anything. I haven't seen that. The, the, the the tough guys sing. Savage Garden. I hadn't seen that. didn't know that. No more Red have been going for four years.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:You need to out a.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:question, my role. Well, I just said that's all I do is make podcasts. Right. Now your final choice is one we've spent, we've devoted quite a bit of time to in the past, which is the orange, how's my French?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I mean,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:that work?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:fine to me, but I'm probably not the best judge. So yeah, the, the Computer Blue Campaign launched in 2023 ahead of the the Women's World Cup. and it used a AI at a time where it wasn't quite as prevalent as it is now to to challenge gender bias in football. So you think you're watching highlights of the men's team you think you're watching MBAE, Anton Greenman, Oliver Ro take three kick score, bicycle kick score headers, et cetera. But it's actually Sina k or Delphine Cascarino doing exactly the same thing. And I. The reveal comes halfway through, and the whole point of it is to encourage football fans to recognize your own biases and appreciate the skill level in women's football. And it was one that did exceptionally well at the time. And this one really did live and die by the content because it had to be executed, perfectly. Why do people like it? Because it, if the job or the ambition is to get football fans to challenge their biases, definitely does that. It's also quite a seamless clever use of, of tech. And I guess the not the backlash, but the reason that you may not enjoy it quite as much. Just a couple of reasons. One is, are you the kind of person that feels misled by this kind of thing? Maybe that feels a bit soft, but I think the really important conversation here is. Got to be so careful when you're discussing women's sport in the context of men's sport because the whole reason that this thing is made in the first place is because these biases exist. And sadly, a lot of the time people who call themselves fans of certain sports are needlessly comparing women's football, cricket, rugby whatever it is to, to the men's game. So, I really liked it. I thought it was innovative and it was a great example of a, a longstanding partner like Orange who, who have sponsored the French national team for a while actually doing something to, to challenge those gender bias. It was quite brave considering the organizations involved.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I remember this. we had on the one from Copper 90 and I.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Charlotte Thompson.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Who else did we have on?
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:We had Jane Purdon on and I think we had Maggie Murphy on as
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:we did have Maggie Murphy. Yeah, yeah,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:goals,
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:yeah. So, I remember part of the, at the time, and these are three women who are, you know, leading in the field of football. Part of the argument was, we've got to get away from comparing this to the men's game. That's, it's just like we can't keep drawing comparisons and going and going because that's almost a, a fault within itself. My issue with this has always slightly been, and as we know, I'm, you know, a fat incompetent man when it comes to any kind of sport, but if you took enough shots of me and cut'em fast enough of me kicking a ball down the park, I'd look really good if you just did really fast cuts, you know, but like, you know, and I'm not, I'm terrible. So, you know, I, I think that was kind of like, partly the interesting thing for me is it's, it. You know, but still my issue with it, you know, if that gets women interested in and gets people interested in women's football, then great. You know, I'm, I'm happy days. What's do
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, I
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:what?
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:I think
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:But
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:we had there, there was a.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I assumed when we went into that episode and did that episode, I thought, they're all gonna love this. Right. And, and they didn't. And I was really surprised because I thought I'd be the one going, oh, you know, if you took enough pictures of me down the park, you know, but like,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:yeah,
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:I thought that would be me being the controversial one. And it actually wasn't. It's far more, they were far more in the space of we have to get away from this stuff and actually start appreciating the women's game in its own, on its own merits.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:yeah. I agree. And I think it's, I think one of the, the interesting questions that, that it poses whether you like the ad or not, or whether you think it's, you know, the male lens et cetera, there is a bigger which is about the product of women's football. And, you know, because of the decisions that are being made in terms of the, it is replicating. and the, the events and the tournaments of the men's game, there is almost, you know, you are sort of leading people into a comparison, which we all know is the wrong route it's different and it's aimed at a different audience, et cetera, et cetera. And this is where the, think the ad it, yeah. Again, it's interesting sort of one of the themes. There have been a couple of themes of this conversation. One has been, Joe's choices have led on cause and cause marketing and brand purpose, which I think is quite an interesting sort of
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yes, I thought that as well,
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:that's what, that's what has linked them.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:you know, was very much about a kind of. Individuals kind of making their own films kind of thing and kind of about, about kind of getting a sort of a democratization of the media to get people to, you know, that's all of his work was about that kind of territory and that yours are very kind of like interestingly cause driven.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:What you don't know, Joe, is this is like a sort of on the psychiatrist couch. Your, your cho choices reveal you and we are just, you know, they're thereby the bye, but we are really just interested in getting in your head. But I think that it is quite interesting, you, you, there is a thread of the choices and that the other bit of it, which I keep coming back to is time and how time treats these campaigns. So it's quite, it's quite useful that, that they are not, you know, last week.'cause quite often you jump on a new campaign and it's, you haven't got the space to think about it other than it's just a, as a sort of piece of execution. Whereas time does actually, you know. It's quite useful to say, right? Yeah. Does that stand up? Why does it not stand up? Why does it stand up? What's the, does it matter? You know, to the point about timeliness and, and you know, the relationship to the culture, which is always moving forward anyway. But yeah, I think it's, it's, it's fascinating. I think there's a, that bit about it's almost like a sort of sales and marketing aspect to it in terms of the, the now and the broader brand. So, you know, the brand aspect to it I think is a really interesting question. And it's one that quite sometimes when we, we do quite a lot of, you know, what one can year and why, and there's a few themes there. One is there, there's not many laughs there. You know, it's quite a sort of purpose is quite difficult to make entertaining you know, from a broad perspective. Although people sort of challenge that, so you sort of get to a sort of return to fun is one, question. then the other one is a lot of sort of campaigns are now more about the fans than they are about what's going on on the pitch. And again, I think these things are fashion led that there will be a move away from that. But having said that, the fan one we talked about is 15 years old now, isn't it?
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, I, I guess there's a, there's a couple of things here. One is I'm quite interested in, and unless three of these are football related, right, like the power of harnessing football, football fandom, I think quite interesting to see fans. guess marketed that as this, this larger group of people that once behind a cause can really set momentum going. And I think that's probably why two or three of these are, are, are cause base I think just as to as to why I've chosen it, it's probably a bit of my my own, my own background at, at the Romans. Really. I mean, we've, not to say we don't make really fun ideas as well. We, we do, but some of our most famous campaign campaigns that we've made in sport or or in a consumer division have been bin calls related. So I, I guess that's kind of what, what led me down, that path. But, you know, I look at some of the content that, that I took in this morning following the arsenal man City game. And this isn't, this isn't cause related content. This is short skit cartoons of telling Erling Harlan to, to stay humble. Like, there's, there's a place for, for, for all of these things. But I do wonder if from a campaign perspective the things that represent a cause can be really powerful.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:do you think that is gonna, because that's the direction of travel and I, you know, again, One of the questions that comes back is, is taking the role of PR in the TikTok era and how you then, and when you jump in, when you don't, it's just that heightened of fevered environment and what brands can do credibly. We all, you know, there's obviously case studies of when they, when it fails and we love that and it becomes a meme and all of those things, but it's quite a, it's, it's delicate like on a morning after, you know, arsenal would Adidas or would someone else think, oh, we should, we've gotta get on this. just the temptation to, to do something is sometimes overwhelming, isn't it? It's quite just, I gotta, it's like I'm a journalist, you know, something happens, you think, oh, I really want to do something around that. it is quite hard. Sometimes the best thing to do is just say no, you know, no, we're not gonna jump in.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:My take is, there's two camps here. One are the official partners and one camp is the bookmakers or the unnamed pizza delivery company that can put out a tweet or an Insta Post, and it either works and everyone jumps on, and they're heralded as the greatest trolls that that ever lived in, in a, like a, in, in a fun, Jovi way, or it doesn't work, and you move on to the next thing. I, I think as an official. Partner is probably a little bit harder to to move that quickly because there's more at stake.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:So you've got the paddy power position basically, isn't it? So it's, it's, know, you can be on, and it was Twitter, it probably is now, but you can just do stuff it's expected. But again, that is part of the brand. So it's not
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, that's a brand position in itself, isn't it? If suddenly, if tomorrow, Adida started behavior. Like Paddy power online, you'd, everyone would think This is too weird, wouldn't they?
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:It's just mad. It'd be madness.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah, it would. It would. World end in madness.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:do your head in. Right. Listen, Joe, enjoyed those great choices. Thank you very much for coming
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah. Thanks, Joe.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Moore, thank you very much for your time
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:You're welcome.
joe-burdon_1_02-03-2025_120426:you very much.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:with the best, the best backdrop in podcasting.
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Now with a collection of my son's spray paint these days, the added feature.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Is that your wife, by the way? Is that a picture of your
simon_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah.
richard_1_02-03-2025_120426:Yeah. Yeah. Very nice. I mean, the painting, not your wife, well, your wife's, I'm sure. Yeah. IL.