UP467 The Man Who Signed Michael Jordan: The reality behind the Air Movie, Nike and Matt Damon

Sonny Vaccaro was the pivotal figure behind Michael Jordan's groundbreaking deal with Nike, which remains one of the most storied contracts in sports business history. So good they made a movie about it, "Air", in which Vaccaro was played by Matt Damon, with Ben Affleck in the Phil Knight role. 

Vaccaro's book Legends and Souls is the long-awaited memoir from one of the great American sports business insiders, telling the reality behind the film and shining a light in to the culture of Nike then and now.

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Transcript

0:00

Who are you, Michael? That will be the defining question of your life and I. Think you already know the answer, and that's why we're all here. A shoe is just a shoe until somebody steps into it, then it has meaning. The rest of us just want a chance to touch that greatness and we need you in these shoes. Not so you have meaning in your life, but so that we have meaning in ours. Everyone at this table will be forgotten as soon as our time here is up except for you. You're gonna be remembered forever because some things are eternal. You are Michael Jordan, and your story is gonna make us want to fly.

Richard: 0:48

what was that like to see yourself played by, uh,, Matt Damon.

Sonny: 0:52

Well at that point in my life, I'd have been happy if you were playing me, so I, they never, ever thought that would happen.

1:02

That was the voice of Sonny Vaccaro, the man who signed Michael Jordan to Nike in that groundbreaking deal in 1984, which which the film air was based on, and you heard Matt Damon in the first part of that. Which obviously led to the creation of the Air Jordan line, which generated$126 million in its first year and last year. I think that number is around 7 billion, of which Michael Jordan still takes about 5%. So it's a nice deal for him, and obviously he's one of the most talked about and discussed in sports marketing history. For Koro. Also signed Kobe Bryant to Adidas. About 10 years later, marking another pivotal moment in sneaker marketing history. The bits you probably don't know is the stuff that went on in the past. There's a. Couple of things worth talking about and we, we touch on in the conversation. He founded the A BCD camp, which was an elite basketball showcase for high school athletes featuring stars like Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwight Howard. It ran from 1984 to 2007 and was a sort of key platform for scouting, college talent. And in 65, he co-founded a high school all-star game called the Dapper Dan round Ball Classic, which you'll hear us referring to. Featured again, Shaquille O'Neal. Patrick Ewing, and it ran for over four decades. Over and above that there's another part of the story, which is he played a role in the O'Bannon versus NCAA lawsuit, which allowed college athletes to be compensated for the first time for their name, image, and likeness. That was the landmark case in sports law all of this is in his book, which is called. Legends and Souls, which tells the story of the man's life, but also goes into some details. So if you're interested in a bit of history of the sports business, that one is for you. I'll put a link in the show notes for this podcast. Before we do that, just wanna play another clip from Air, the movie and it's the bit where Sonny Vaccaro is on the phone to Mrs. Jordan, Delores Jordan, Michael's mother, played by Viola Davis. And it's the bit in it that he is trying to sort of mansplain the economics of professional sport, and Mrs. Jordan is having none of it. Michael will get a percentage of the revenue of the sale of each shoe that is sold. I am sorry. Not all Mike issues, just the ones with his name on them. Oh. Uh, Mrs. Jordan. So that's not how. The business works at all. I mean, I, I understand the assumption, but, um, what the athletes get a licensing fee in this case, obviously a groundbreaking fee, but they don't actually participate in the gross sales of the shoe. And because Nike's a public company so that it, they can't, that would disrupt the industry and they wouldn't, they, um, there's a, there's a whole other set of economics around this. It's very complicated. Yeah, I'm sure it's quite complicated. But um, this way it's cleaner because, you know, and the family knows exactly what's gonna come in every year. Well, that's not his concern. Um, alright, Uhhuh, his concern is that in order for the shoe to be meaningful, in order for young people, many not of real means to wanna go out and spend the money that they've worked all week, two weeks at the mall for. Then Michael has to create the meaning in that shoe. His name is on that shoe. Yeah. So actually we think that's a benefit to him because his likeness gets marketed by Nike. No, his likeness, his name is not in any way meaningful to Nike unless he scores 40 points a night every night. Beat Keem is rookie of the year, makes all star and all NBAT. Okay? That would be exceptional. And, and um, you know, it is the NBA. So these are the best of the best. Well, he has to be better. He will win championships, multiple championships, final MVPs. I know my son. Allstar selection. Allstar, MVP, defensive player of the year. But ma'am, with respect, Sidney Mare is the defensive player of the year. Adrian Danley won the scoring title. They're not, you don't get to be Magic and Michael Cooper, it's basketball. But if he does it, he deserves to be compensated. You eat, we eat. That's all he is asking. That's a fair point. But that's just not how business works. I mean, they, they invest the capital and they get the reward, and that's how it goes. Well, maybe that needs to change because if he does what I think he's gonna do, what you also think he's gonna do and what Michael knows he's gonna do, then it won't be the NBA promoting my son. I promise you. It'll be the other way around. And in that case. He deserves a peace. This is Jordan. I, I understand what you're saying. I, I actually agree with you, but that's just not how it goes in this life. People like your son, people who work for a living, they don't let us own anything. We take the best we can get, and this is a great deal. This is the biggest deal this company has ever offered anyone by far. Michael could blow out his knee next week. Mr. Bacaro. I agree. That the business is unfair. It's unfair to my son. It's unfair to people like you, but every once in a while someone comes along. That's so extraordinary that it forces those reluctant part with some of that wealth to do so. Not outta charity, but I greed because they are so very special and even more rare. That person demands to be treated according to their worth because they understand what they are worth or their mother does. You purport to know a good deal about my son. You tell me. Is it me who believes in Michael his name, or am I just a healthy reflection of who he is and what he believes about himself? Hmm. Isn't that why you came to my home? Yes it is. Okay, now I'm gonna put it to you plain. Once again, Michael will get$250,000 and a Mercedes-Benz that will be forgotten in a year, but he gets a piece of the revenue of the shoe and all future Air Jordan shoes. The shoe is just a shoe. Until my son steps into it.

Richard: 7:49

It's interesting reading the book because I imagine that a lot of people will think, I know the Michael Jordan story, I know the Nike story. I watched the air film. actually the book is interesting because it doesn't take you down the usual. Roots. We need to talk about Jordan. We need to talk about Kobe Bryant, and I want to talk about the deal, the air Jordan deal because it's so influential and I'm wondering if it could be possible now to replicate, but just take me inside that. Negotiation because obviously people will have watched the, the film and you were played by Matt Damon in there. I wonder what, what was that like to see yourself played by, uh, Matt Damon.

Sonny: 8:36

Well at this, at that point in my life, I'd have been happy if you were playing me, so I, they never, ever thought that would happen. But when Matt Damon and Ben Affleck get involved. And, and, and you get, you know, all the other great stars that they were, that were involved playing the other people. It was an honor and it also gave more validity, although to the public, for the, the acting, but also it was a movie. It was not a book. There were liberties taken, you know, situations that weren't like, you know, breaking the world or whatever. I didn't drive to Mrs. Jordan's house, you know, whatever. But they built around it. It was, you know, it opened the door for me to be talking to you today because it opened the door for me again and my wife to say, we're finished my book. And the reason I say that everyone thinks my life ended with, you know, Michael Jordan basically. The reason I'm talking to you today, and now I did this book, is because it only started my life, but the, but the transition and the, the, the work we had to go to, and it only took, it took three months, Richard, for me to have the meetings. I never met him. I saw him play in that game that you watched the video of in the movie that, uh, that Matt, you know, portrayed. But I was at the game. I was at Georgetown. They were one of the schools that represented us, John Thompson and Patrick Ewing and all these guys and you know, that played in those games. I knew personally, I knew all the, all those Georgetown kids played my All Star game, and John was one of my best friends. So when he made that shot. It broke my heart. I didn't give a damn about Michael Jordan. He never wore my shoe. I didn't invite him to the Dapper Dan, because he wasn't the best player in North Carolina at that time. Buzz Peterson was all the things, and I, you know, I, I was disappointed. So for, for the next three years, I, I probably never said his name one more time until they asked me that question, who would I vote for? Which at later tell you. But going through the process of this, the Jordan thing, meeting him at the Tony Romas, meeting him two or three other times, ending up at the, you know, at the, after the Olympic games were over and having this big meeting with Phil Knight, with, you know, uh, Billy Packer, the, the CBS, he announced all the games. He was, he was America's, Augusta, God re reporter, especially in basketball. And he had backed me up, but. Getting Phil Knight to accept it went down to the last quarter. You know, we had the first three quarters, everything was laid up. I didn't know Michael, but we, we overcome Adidas and Reebok.'cause I always had a hunch. As you saw in the movie, they were never gonna go beyond the players they already had, which the players that both of those companies had were the greatest players in the pro game at that time. So I always, I my feeling my gambling thing that they're not gonna budge on this kid. Let's give him the whole, everything we got. And it worked because after Knight saw, uh, packer, after we went and met Michael, everything fell our way.

Richard: 12:01

And what is Jordan in terms of what's he like about his own legacy? Because obviously we've the last dance as a, you know, the, the documentary and the air movie and there are varying various books. Is he protective of his own? Legacy. Does he like people sort of, uh, talking about him and about the past.

Sonny: 12:24

Well, Richard, just to go to your point, I, I was interviewed for three hours for the last dance. I had never talked to Michael again until, you know, during that, that period we just separated. It wasn't not negative. It was a business decision. And after talking for three hours. When they showed the four or five award-winning chapters that I was involved in, obviously I was only in the last four seconds of the movie because they had to put me in the last scene. Is them really getting outta the car that day? Well, obviously I had to be there, so I, I had no touch with Michael during all that time. I, you know, I was busy helping these other companies compete against him, but the movie I. Last dance pushed me further into my thing because it hurt that they would cut me out, especially after I told'em they would, and my movie, the one that they did right with Peter Gober and Madden and Ben told the truth. So it basically opened up this other door for me. To finish his book, to talk to people like you. But there was no relationship between Michael and I for many years. We still haven't seen each other publicly. We've talked on a phone a few times. I just wanna tell your public right now, you may have this question during the, the nine years that I was with Michael. We traveled the world with him. I lived in his, I slept in his home. You know, I, I produced a show called, you know, from, uh, for television, you know, A salute to Michael Jordan. We were on Saturday Night Live. I went to all his openings of the Macy's and all that. Pam and Michael had the same birthday he used to send you. I still got birthday cards. Maybe Pam can sell'em someday. And, you know, with Michael's signature on him. So to answer your question and to tell the people watching you, listening to you tonight, it, it wasn't a fragment, it was just a disappointment. We were unable to. And then lastly, you know, the final straw was the last dance, and then what Knight unraveling and Jordan said that I had nothing to do with it. Well, that was, which, that old thing, a straw broke to camel's back. Well, I'm not a camel, but that hurt most of all. Ling at night. I don't give a damn about, but. Michael Jordan, I still have a personal feeling from Michael Jordan. We went through the most iconic years anyone could live, especially the outsider with, with one of the greatest athletes, and Michael did a lot. So hopefully there's, I answered that and I can help you continue with those kind of questions.

Richard: 15:14

No, of course., We had Donald Dell on who you'll remember,

Sonny: 15:19

Sure.

Richard: 15:19

as and we were talking about. in the context of Air Jordan and Stan Smith trainers, these enduring really odd deals'cause the, even the great superstars don't get. Build brands in that way. It's quite a sort of unusual thing that PE people are still buying Stan Smith trainers and they're still buying Air Jordan, buy the millions. And is is there any sense from you in terms of why that caught people's imagination? Was it just the market? Is it just marketing, I guess is a question?

Sonny: 15:53

I, you know, that's, There's a, there's a, a psyche thing about celebrities, whatever the field was, most of that I'm talking about, not guys who. Cured cancer or stuff like that, you know, the important things in life, but people who apply to the individuals, the billions of individuals who can't do what these people are doing, whether it's singing a song, writing a song, acting in a play, being an athlete. So no matter what it is, the psyche there is, damn, I wish I can do that, because sports or singing looks easy. When you're watching it on television, you, you get, you know, you get the, the great look. I can honestly say I knew most of the great English actors, not because they were on stage in England doing it because Richard Burton sort of opened the door for me and all these guys when they started making movies in America. I knew the steel. They could do and they're, I couldn't understand, you know, their dialogue because you talk different than we talk in England. But, but you, to answer your question, there's this psychological thing in our minds that I can do what they're doing. They're just a guy standing up or singing, or this guy's just shooting a basketball and it's a fantasy. And I can, I'll use this and we'll get past this.'cause you're thinking silly maybe, but it's not, you know. Taylor Smith. I mean, she's the, you know, the S Swifties. I mean, how, how do you, how do you put together, this is girls thing?'cause girls for years have been just unthought of, you know, whatever. And, and then the s swifties comes along, right? And all of a sudden there's a hundred, you got mothers and grandmothers now that listen to her, you know, just 25, 30 years ago. It's the psyche. We wanna be them. We wanna be them, Richard. So we live vicariously. So what they're doing, and that makes it easy for us to go to work tomorrow morning.

Richard: 17:58

And it's one of those things that I guess people will just always do and always have done. In terms of our relationship with those, those people, did the, I I'm interested in the, with films particularly on, and just the portrayal of Nike at that time, let's talk about Nike for a minute. Do you think they got the, the atmosphere right in terms of the corporate sort of. Energy around the place, and obviously you've got Phil Knight. I think Rob Strasser is a really underrated figure in the story, let's just, do you think that came through?

Sonny: 18:39

I thought, if anything, I thought some of these actors should have at least been nominated for an award from Hollywood. I know, but the one thing that should have been nominated is the reality of that. That whole complex, they had it down packed. The movie, the, the music was people, I mean the, you'll love that music. Everyone knew every song, you know, that was in there. They did. I'm not, not a professional. It's the first time, obviously in my life I was involved, but I was on the set. I met all the players, I, the design people. I met everybody. Pam and I spent the whole day there. It was so authentic that I thought I was back here.

Richard: 19:17

Mm-hmm.

Sonny: 19:18

the saddest part about the movie, Rob Strausser should have gotten more. And so should Peter Moore have gotten more air, they were, you got the feeling of their importance, but did you not get the feelings of what they did? Basically, it was about me. I did things because they, uh, put me in position to do things. Phil Knight, as you watch the movie, right down to the last meeting at the, you know, with Packer, is he was resistant. That was the last thing, but, but Rob Strauser is one in the million and, and I guess, I guess it's 999,000 for Peter Moore. The movie was true. Those speeches were made. I can, I can say the words that, that Matt said to Mrs. Jordan. I, Matt knew those words. We went over, you know, those things. And I was capable of saying those kinds but not as articulate. As Matt made them. Obviously he's an actor, but those happened in that room that day. Mr. Knight, he, he got the book, oh, holy Cross. He didn't go halfway. It made him laugh. I'm giving you scenes in the thing. Those things were, you know, for excitement. But there Matt Damon's root character, me. We, we may have, he may have stretched it a little bit, but there's nothing in there.'cause I was hired and I was put on one job in this movie to make sure Matt knew who I was. So that I can tell you, uh, is pretty darn close to being exactly right. But strausser and more. I mean, you know, Rob, really, you know, there was a, obviously when you read my book, there was a fight, there was a distance. They, they started together. Rob and Phil Knight, he, and when you read the book, you saw how close Rob was. He saved the company. He was just this jolly guy, but. They being Nike, you know, not a service. Because when Matt got the script, that's what you thought Rob did. Until I explained to, you know, the producer, Ben, and said, no, you're missing it. He was there when that meeting was. I want Jordan. It happened just like that.'cause I made it. I said everybody in that room was against me. Troster because he kept it on. It should have been done logically, Richard, that first day they should overcome it.'cause I was not an employee that was there seven days a week. I was this transient guy, commit for two days. I didn't live in Portland during that. You know, the movie said I lived there. I'd go in for a couple days and go home. My job. Was to get kids wearing the shoes that went to college in high school. That's was, and then we start winning the NCAA title. But I have to tell your audience that, that that scene with Peter Moore, the red, I was privy to that. Yes, I know. Rob said, let's roll the dice. Basically we'll pay the fine.

22:27

Can you get more red in? They literally are not permitted to be a single additional percentage point of red. Is that true? What is the actual rule? 51% of the shoe has to be white. NBA is extremely strict about it. They'll find him, they'll fine him.$5,000 a game We're fucked what about more red? A lot more red. And what about if we just pay the fines, make a commercial out of it? You know, it'll give us headlines. They're gonna find Michael Jordan for being too colorful. Yes. More red. That's right. Subversive, individualistic.

Sonny: 23:21

That happened that Peter said, we're gonna make it red. We're gonna make it red. And they changed the emblem, you know, from the airplane thing to the Jumpman. That all happened after I signed him. That's what the public doesn't get. And that's what Nike Hides and Phil Knight wrote a hundred million dollars book, you know, with his memoir. He quit 1987. Well, it's strange. The guy, God bless him, he's still living. He's living a, a great life and they've done a million, hundreds of things. But the irony of. With my book shows, a lot happened from 19 when, when Rob and Peter left. I didn't leave. I stayed with Michael. No one mentions that if Michael, and they were my best, you know, friends, I mean, Michael was, my, Michael changed my life. Rob and Peter were my best friends. I mean, I should have gone with them. We wouldn't be having a thing and maybe Rob would still be alive. I have no idea. I'm, I'm sorry I said that, but my, my point to you is your audience has to know. That Phil Knight quit keeping score in 1987 when he quit his memoir. I said, a memoir is at the end, isn't it?

Richard: 24:34

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's sort of, it's interesting when you. Read your book of the, there's a, again, it's an atmosphere around the, the 84 Olympics. It really comes through that you were talking to Jordan. He was a pro Adidas guy. He wanted, you know, he would, his heart was in Adidas. He saw them as more sophisticated, classy European. And then there is around Nike and were around the. which again is a really interesting bit, which I'd never really thought about, just in terms of just how they took over that Olympics. It's almost like one of the first ambushes of an Olympics.

Sonny: 25:38

Well, that's the brilliance of marketing. That's what, you know, the marketing people you know, did up there. They were brilliant and obviously they were brilliant with all the ads. That was the opening to Nike's reality of who they can become. I. That Olympic game got Michael Jordan.'cause Billy Packard does not talk to Phil Knight and that does not happen. But if you went there, you begged to get a ticket as the thing would, you couldn't get on the grounds. It had to be stopped. I mean, thousands of people. And now Nike was a subordinate of all the shoe companies. But we owned a beach that weekend and we owned that day and that's what was brilliant. So when the world centered on that day, everybody in Los Angeles, all the, all the movers and shakers, Richard, you know, the movie stars, people would come outta the woodwork to go to a thing by Nike that they didn't, they, they like me, probably thought it was Nick. That's how foreign Nike was. Then the Jordan thing hits. It's a grand slam home run. Never ever. The game was never played again. So the guy can win the Grand Slam home run and win the game the bottom of the ninth. That game will never be played again. But the, the Olympics was the opening door and you're one of the first people to acknowledge that if it's not for the Olympics, Michael Jordan is not, wouldn't even be thought of being had.

Richard: 27:06

It's interesting you sort of see a line between that and, you know, later work with Tiger Woods being an obvious example where you, you know, you've got. Iconography, I guess is you would say, in terms of the, the way in which these superstars are presented as sort of superheroes the argument has been that Nike has lost a bit of that in recent years and that actually it's, it should go back to being, you know, that sort of huge storytelling.

Sonny: 27:35

Richard, your audience. Okay, you're in England, you go, go back to your, go back to your roots. You guys discovered everything sometime. I don't agree with them, but you really did. You were at the forefront of civil. But let's, let's understand they forgot their roots because it's human. It's human. You, you know, you, you're poor. You grow up in the coal mines or whatever it is you grow up in. You don't have anything, and all of a sudden you have a car and all of a sudden you have a suit, clothes, and all of a sudden you're going to a party or eating food. You, that's what happened after Michael Jordan because we then Nike and until I left, continue to get the greatest athletes in the world to wear their shoe. Everyone else. Was financially, you know, covered. They, they didn't know what they were doing. They didn't, they thought it was a fluke. Well, the fluke comes un unraveled in, in my book when I say when I got Kobe.

Richard: 28:36

Hmm.

Sonny: 28:36

That sort of changed things right there.'cause Kobe was. At this time, the next Michael, you know, Tracy McGrady, all these other guys who were coming along, who ended up in Hall of Fame later on, you know, and then. Adidas didn't hold on to LeBron, Nike finally got their next guy. Now, not that they didn't have good players, they obviously did, but the next guy, the, the, the, the superstar, that's why they have a heading, right? You go to a movie, you go to a play, and the last guy out is the star of the play, right? There's 500 people on Les Mis my favorite show in the world, you know, and I, I watch it and I, you see the last guys coming up. It's always the last guy you have. It's always a new hero. And Nike, they, they, they had too much, you know, they had too much on their plate and the other companies started getting them.

Richard: 29:31

So let's talk about Kobe then, because there's obviously a tragedy. There. But in terms of, take us back to the beginning in terms of where, just the excitement of seeing him for the first time.

Sonny: 29:42

Well, the beginning was he wasn't born for 17 more years. The beginning was 1972 when I was doing my All-Star game. His father was the MVP Jellybean Joe Bryant. Kobe's father played in Pittsburgh. He won the most valuable player in that All-Star game that his son's later gonna win 20 years later. You know, in, in, in Detroit. I knew the family, his mother's brother, you know, played in nine the next year. I knew that family. Subconsciously 20 years before I saw them again, I don't see Joe or Pam, his, his wife, or I never, I never knew who Kobe was until. 15 years later when he's a 15, 16-year-old kid, they now move back.'cause Joe had played basketball professionally after the NBA in Italy and they moved back from Italy to America for that first summer. Them running this a, b, c, D camp that I, that's in Philadelphia, he comes over to, you know, New Jersey where my camp was, and I see him for the first time in 15, 16, 17 years. And. Jerry, uh, uh, a young man, Gary Charles, who works with me at, at the camp at that time, uh, brings him over and reintroduces me to him, and he says, I wanna introduce you to my son, Kobe. Can you get him in camp? Well, naturally, I, I I my camp and I didn't know, and, and, and I, you know, he obviously had, he'd be pretty good or they wouldn't have brought him over there. And the bloodlines were pretty good, you know, Kobe's mom and dad, both families. So I put Kobe. In my camp. He's a junior in high school, just his first summer back from Europe. Okay. They know he's pretty good.'cause you know, he played in the summertime, the Philadelphia leagues, you know, the, the young kids leagues and all that stuff. And he comes to camp and he plays and we had great All Americans in there. We had great players that we did every year. When the camp was over, Kobe comes over to thank me and he said, I wanna thank you Mr. Vaccaro. For inviting me to camp. And I said, Kobe, you know, thank you and I'm so glad I finally met, met you and I know your mom and dad. The hugs he said. Then he interrupted me, Richard, and he said, I wanna apologize. This is God. I've been saying his story for now for a week, you know? I said, why would you apologize? You had a great, he made the Allstar team the junior, and, but they lost the game, you know, to the big, big guys in the, you know, the Allstar game. I said, you made the thing. And he said, no, Mr. Karen, I'm gonna tell you I'm coming back next year and I'm gonna be the MVP of the whole camp. This kid told me that when he was 16 years old, a year removed from anything in America. Not giving respect to any of the great kids who were obviously underclassmen like him, but he had that much sense in him that that sense until the second, God forbid he died in that tragic day. But that's who Kobe Bryant wanted. And that's what I remember. Not I, I was with him, not that we signed him, not that I was close to when he played for the Lakers. Not that I know that he, I watched games on television, all that stuff. I know what he said when he was 16 years old. I'm gonna be the best. I think it Richard, to your public. That's the best thing I can say about why. I knew why. I love Michael. I saw the shot. Why did I, he had the guts to take the shot. Richard, I know why I love Kobe. He had the guts to say, no, I'm gonna be the best. I hope that helped you. I get carried away.

Richard: 33:29

Well, you know, it's not surprising you get carried away. It's an incredible, these characters, you know, and these people, they're not just characters. They're people as you know, that you've known. It's a, it's an incredible story. You've, uh, you've written on the book. I really enjoyed it. I must say, as I say, it was for someone who. The, the, and I said at the beginning that the Jordan story is one that, and the Nike story. read Night Phil Knight's book. I've, you know, seen the last dance. But there was stuff in here that I thought, actually, there's a diff, there's always a different angle into these things, but congratulations, I think it's a really lovely piece of work.

Sonny: 34:07

Thank you so much for your kind words. I, I, I wish that you know the public in England. Would give it a try, give it a read for sure. Obviously I want that. But what I wanna tell them that if they open their minds and visualize, like those kids did when they were young, say, oh, this really happened. And I'll say this in front of you, in front of your public, and, and I've been saying it for the last, when I was doing these interview for, for a week here, is it's the truth of everything I. Because I, I wanna say, I would have no room for error. Making these statements with the people and the businesses and the people I worked with could prove that it would be different. I'm saying to you through my eyes and my memory, there are no false accusation or things. It happened this way. I'm proud of it and I'll take it to my grave and my sister-in-law who was the guiding light to give me this, and she's passed away is why I wanna say that. Now, Mary Jo Pam's youngest sister, actually started this five years ago and she passed away and we put it on hold for four and a half years, and my wife and I, about six, seven months ago said, let's finish the darn thing. And we did. And this is what I got. And I'm glad that you invited me on. I hope it opened up some doors. Not for Santa Carro, but for what marketing is, what life can be, but what's the strength of your mind can give you. And I think these athletes and these entertainers that I talked all tonight, Richard, will help your public understand a little bit more about what this book is.

Richard: 35:49

Absolutely great photos in there as well of you as a, as a younger man, as a sharp couple in a very sharp suits.

Sonny: 35:56

Well, I know, but you notice how young my wife was beautiful. She is. Yes. We don't, that picture was just taken yesterday. We just threw that in there. Now she's still that way. She is.

36:08

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