Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP468 States of Play: Miguel Delaney on Sportswashing
Today's guest is Miguel Delaney, Chief Football Writer for The Independent who talks about his book States of Play: How Sports Washing Took Over Football.
It's described as a scorching account of how football's very popularity threatens to destroy it, a brave forensic and utterly gripping book' by Tom Holland (The Rest Is History host, not Spider Man).
This episode of the Unofficial Partner podcast is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport; a new breed of agency that combines world class creativity with deep sponsorship expertise, flawless operational delivery and a culture of marketing effectiveness.
The team at Sid Lee Sport is driven by the belief that sports marketing can and should be done better, and are determined to push things forward.
They're pioneering a new standard of effectiveness in sports marketing, going far beyond media ROI, using econometric and attribution modelling to demonstrate the impact of their work on their clients' bottom line. And it's that focus on effectiveness that informs their creative philosophy of creating famous campaigns and experiences for rights holders, sponsors and sports brands - because they know famous campaigns outperform others on all business metrics.
You can see this through Sid Lee Sport’s groundbreaking work with global clients, including UEFA, Visa, Lidl, Tommy Hilfiger, Descente and Oppo–to name just a few of their biggest signings.
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Hello, welcome to unofficial partner of the Sports Business Podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. Today we are talking with Miguel Delaney, the, uh, chief Football writer for the Independent about his book States of Play, how Sports Washing Took Over Football. It's described as a scorching account of how football's very popularity threatens to destroy it, a brave forensic and utterly gripping book as Tom Holland, who I'm assuming is the uh, rest is history guy, not the Spider-Man bloke, but. I will, uh, leave links to the book, in the show notes to the podcast. This episode of Unofficial Partner is brought to you by our friends at Sid Lee Sport, a new breed of agency, combining world class creativity with deep sponsorship expertise, flawless operational delivery, and a culture of marketing effectiveness. We've enjoyed getting to know them over the last few months. Impressive bunch. And they're driven by the belief that sports marketing can and should be done better and determined to push things forward. They're pioneering a new standard of effectiveness in sports marketing going far beyond media, ROI, using econometric and attribution modeling to demonstrate the impact of their work on their clients bottom line. And it's that focus on effectiveness that informs their creative philosophy. Of creating famous campaigns and experiences for rights holder sponsors and sports brands because they know that famous campaigns outperform others on all business metrics. You can see this through Sid Lee Sports groundbreaking work with global clients, including ufa, visa, little Tommy Hilfiger Dee, and Oppo. To name just a few of their biggest signings. So if you're looking for an agency to take your brand to the top, head to sid lee sport.com.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah, no, I've, I've got a cold, which I'm trying to build up to being covid,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Okay.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:to impress people, but it's not, it's just,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:I mean, there was a, there was a brief blast of it, I think, last year, but you, you don't really hear what people getting at the moment anymore.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I know. It's, it's a sort of MySpace type
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah, yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:now,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, yeah, yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Okay. Right. Loads of talk about enjoyed the book.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Thank you. Thank you.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:And it was interesting'cause I was sort of reading it and around the time of the Newcastle beating Liverpool at the cup,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Carrabelle Cup final and then reading the, press afterwards and the, you know, the headlines and the trying to contain these ideas. The, you know, you've
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:simple sort of happiness on behalf of Newcastle fans, Jordan's, you know, success starved Newcastle fans. And then you've also got this. Massive caveat, you know, of the ownership and trying to contain those two things. It's, it's almost like the sort of the match report can't contain those two things. It's just too, it is just
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Must have been in front of mind when you, for you, because obviously you were trying to do both jobs and you've got
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:stuff going
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Now, funny enough that, so I generally in those situations, I always put it in have, say I did a tread to guitar World Cup with, I've done it with Cities Champions League. In fact, the first time I really got heat for this all, all this stuff was when I. And to be honest, it was actually, it was the first time I probably really started to delve into it properly, which was Citi winning the FA Cup in 2019. And that was because I think that was their kind of, it was obviously they'd done the done the treble, this kind of first major moment. And that was their first achievement. Sorry, it was the first major moments after November, 2018, which is when football leagues came out. And when Amnesty used the word sports washing about football for the first time. And so I do, I do think that changed, like for the first time it was when city weren't really seen as well, oh, here's a, a very wealthy Gulf billionaire. He was actually much more seen in his actual context, which was as a senior royal in this instance of Newcastle. I was actually, I wasn't, I I didn't write in the game live because I was in a more, I was in. One of the more one of a different seat, which meant I was a mere 15 feet from a Yassar Ruan for
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Oh,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:most of the evening. Um,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Seat.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, yeah, there was a few, a, a few media were there and we thought that would be more interesting actually, I suppose, than doing a live report just to see uh, I like all the color about it. He spent a lot of. The aftermath of the game on his phone. In fact, I think there was about an hour period where he's just glued to it, sending voice notes and just tapping away. I have to think at least one of them was to Mohammad Bin Zelman. So, but yeah, in that, like, I get, especially if you're, if you're a journalist who covers the club a lot, and I suppose a Newcastle, I think is one of the more distinctive regional pacs, one of the few that actually really remains, maybe Liverpool is the other one. It's become at least a Premier League level. I think all of that has become a bit more disparate lately. Like I could appreciate, like the, the main focus is gonna be the fans, what it means um, per, I, I'm, I'm in a different position to that. I don't cover them. Like as a, I don't cover any club as part of a pack anymore'cause of my role I. And because of that, when I write about these things, I do try and bring in the full context. And I, I had I been writing on that I would've done, I suppose, would've done on other occasions, like when Citi won the Champions League in 2023, acknowledge the genuine meaning from the fans. This is something they, that they can celebrate or that they are celebrating, but also put it in its, it's, it's it's fair context, which is, it is that very emotion that these states will use. And I think that's one of the most insidious things. About this whole, about this whole concept. I mean, you know, in the book I do discuss that. I'm actually sure sports washing is fit for purposes as a term. I don't think it fully, really conveys what's going on. It's just useful shorthand. But all of that, I mean, like, because yeah, they, these, these are like genuinely the happiest mo moments of people's lives. And it's difficult to be ish about that, but it's, it's, it's that very happiness that these days use. I mean, even if you're the most cynical fan. Do I feel like in that moment when you're feeling it, you're feeling like the first, the first trophy in 70 years, it, it might like, it's, it's very difficult to think rationally, which is Of course, and when you're talking about ownerships like this and how it's actually used, you really, you have to try and be as, as rational as possible with it.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Well, there's a quote in there from the, the what's the guy who's the Newcastle podcaster?
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Oh true faith is it? Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yes. And there's a lovely quote in there talking about, well, you know, it's, not up to
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:to draw the line, which I think is a really interesting'cause it gets to that sort of question
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:There is, there is a line somewhere or where is the
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:to remove the line? And actually when it's falling on football fans, probably
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, yeah. I,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:fair.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, I guess as I hope comes across in the book, I, I personally don't have any issue with that. Like, if you think about it as well, so I spoke to us like Martin Newsome in the book about this, about the kind of the psychological process behind this. I mean, ultimately, this is your, this is your thing. Like you've had all your life and suddenly another ownership comes along. Like I, I, I certainly wouldn't ask any fan to not go, I don't think it even really falls on fans to be critical. The only thing I would say is, and what I, the other side of that, that I, that I think what I don't get is. Found defending the owner, and unfortunately that happens more with state ownership than it does with really any other, to be honest.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Well, it's sort of, it is interesting hearing fans are sort of lamenting the day, you know, they pine for the Abramovich years, don't they? There there's a And it's just because of the money.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:And let's, let's talk about Abramovich because I think it was, you know, again, one of the interesting points I think you make you sort of source the playbook if you like, back to Abramovich. Tell me about that. Just because I think, let's start there.'cause I think it's quite an interesting.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:There's a, there's a few threads in there
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, before you even get to anything with Abramovich, just what he was and, and the moment that he came in at that alone is such an immense game changer.'cause I make, I suppose I make the point in the book, I. Prior to that summer of 2003, the only ownerships in the Premier League were either British or based in Britain, and kind of with a longstanding connection to Britain, like the famous one being Al Faed, obviously, who long wanted, who long wanted a British passport. And then not only did someone come in who's from a foreign country, and I suppose at that point, still even in 2003, just what, 13 years after the fall of communism, still one of the more mysterious foreign countries.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:We'd had American owners, have we not? Randy Lerner has been
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:So that was afterwards that, so, Abramovic was the, was the first, the first one like this. And also of course, it wasn't just, you know, that he was, you know, from Russia, it was this level of wealth that no one really conceived of before. And like, and even like in the most basic way that worked. And remember this is a point in football history as well, where the game a lot was globally booming. There were, there were financial difficulties. I, the pull out of ITV digital had caused a huge issue. In in, in the EFL, what is the EFL now? So like c clubs would also, they would often pay or agree transfer fees in three installments and pay the first, not even knowing if they could pay the second. I mean, that was part of the leads United Story by the end. Whereas the brown bitch comes in and he, you know, he goes to buy someone like Joe Cole or as he would've wanted, ti Andria, Christian ri and basically agree a price and the entire fee is in their bank account. To a half an hour later. So we're already talking about the scale that football hadn't conceived of. And it's probably because of that as well, and especially because of just how mind blowing all this was and how, how much it changed the transfer market that, I mean,'cause that that's enough on its own to try and kind of grasp. And also
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:it. What's the first, there was a first transfer window. When was that? That was,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:there was, there was so much thousand three.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:yeah.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:And again, he comes in and he ba he 110 million, I think it was, it's, it is over a hundred million. Anyway, the exact figures in the book, obviously. And, but that, that, but again, that'd been a figure that had never been spent before. It was like, describe this fantasy football stuff. And there, there were no real questions about, you know, is there state link here? What's like, very few people were asking that. Banks was actually, he was one of the few,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:tony
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah. Tony Banks, sorry.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:he, he, he was, he was one of the few to actually say, well, we we're like, we, we want to know more about this guy. And if you look at the context at the time, which is where Russian oligarchs are buying up. A lot of London buying up so many assets, influences spreading. And we know about what in Putin? Putin's famous kind of well, you can almost describe as a shakedown where he gets the ball into a room and says basically, you know. You know, get into shape with me or else you're gonna lose your fortunes. It's now impossible to not link this to the state. Obviously Rambi has been sanctioned since Catherine Belton's book, which I do quote Putin's people went further in which he quotes various sources saying it was, he was outright directed to buy it by Putin. But she's got a very interesting thing that even if that's not true, but I, I think it's something you can, it's very fair to consider that it, that it, that was true. There is a, there's a brilliant bit in her book where she basically explained some of the rationale or what a source told her, what the rationale was, which that Putin realized one of the best ways into British culture to really integrate was to buy up its national game. And in that context, I mean that, that, that is basically, that is sports washing articulated. So yeah, I think like the. E, even if say the connections between Abramovich and the state weren't necessarily as direct as say PIF with Saudi or QSI with Qatar or Sheikh Mansour, given he's a senior royal in Abu Dhabi, you can, you can still see this forming and that sends, and suddenly, I think without people realizing there's a political use of football that is kind of a next level up from what we'd seen before, like Scon using it to launch a political career or, and also to kind of bolster his fortune.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:It's almost like they're sort of the old rogues of, you know, Murdoch Bescon You know, they seem very, it's almost like a of CP tinted now.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah, yeah, yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:When you look back at that, you know that they're using him as, you know, media content to, to sell stuff.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:a, that's a different game entirely
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, yeah, yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:what we're talking about here.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah. Let's not forget as well, actually. So bur obviously he was out to buy a football team. Milan in another game changing moment.'cause he was basically the originator of the, of the Champions League and the Super League.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:He also owned a private tv, a satellite TV station, which for which he bought the rights. So like there was almost this kind of like, well, as Bur Cody himself would've set it a virtuous cycle that bolstered both his TV station and Milan. And of course Murdoch tried to do that with Manchester United in 1998, but wasn't allowed. Which is actually a rare example in this story of when England maybe felt, or the Premier League felt less permi, ended up being less permissive to an o to potential owner than any other league because as we know, due to laws going back to the 1850s. And as we can see from the current profile of Premier League owners, it is far and away the easiest al the easiest sporting competition, almost say, to buy a club in. And these are socially and politically and economically very powerful club.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah. Yeah. There's a great quote again, a good quote from Bescon. European Cup has become a historical anachronism. It is economic nonsense that a club such as Milan might be eliminated in the first round. It is not modern thinking. I. I really like that quote. It's like it's presented as, you know, the, there's a classic business quote that,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:the, this is modern thinking. We, we hear it now
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah, yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:disruption. Disruption is everything.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah. Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:and it's sort of presented as a, well, you know, get with the, get with the the
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually when, when I think of that as well, and the, the way you've put it there, there's another quote I use in the book, and it's exactly this, this whole element is kinda reframing things in a business sense. Remember watching that film, the Founder which quotes a famous line about McDonald's, that it isn't actually a fast food company, it's a real estate company. And by the same token. The Premier League isn't actually a football competition, it's a media rights company. And I suppose that that's exactly the sort of framing that the he, he did. Bert Scon didn't see this as a pure football competition where the champions of every country played here. He saw it as well, this is a device where we can be making a lot more money outta this, and the biggest should be there. It's very much a forerunner to, and what Andrea Anali was saying in 2021 about the likes of Atlanta.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's also the, I mean, the abramovich bit is interesting just because of the, the ripple effects, you know, the injection of money at that
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Hmm.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I. Which then create, there's almost like a sort of, again, to use a business cliche as a sort of flywheel started to to
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:you have the media, right, the product gets better'cause the talent is all coming to England, then the media rights are going up. And that gap, which again is really important to the Premier League, that gap in media income. That remains now. I mean that's 20 years later, 20 something years later where. got, it's, it's the, the total amounts, but it's also the distance between the Premier League and those other, other clubs, which I think they, they look at very, very closely. So that moment, I remember talking to Richard Scudamore, we had
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:and he was, you know, he quotes Abramovich as one of the single most important people in the history of the Premier League because of that,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:just change in the sheer wall of money that he was, he was bringing in.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose, I mean, I do quote kind of skew de Moore's ideas in the book as well, where basically he kind of, he'd worked in the States and he realized this put football at least Premier League into what was still globally popular, but still quite parochial enterprise into a whole other sphere. And like that's, yeah, like it's, it's in just the kind of level of that when you have a figure, like Abramovich involved is something else. And of course, as we know, Abramovich was directly brought up. When Abu Dhabi were buying Manchester City? I did. I did. He, he was, it was the example given.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Let's talk about Man City, trace for me then will, may build a bridge from Abramovich to city. What's, what bit is it? I mean, I, I, you know, it's, it's tempting to say there's a
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Hmm.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:developing, but just take me inside that
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:I, I actually think there's a lot of city fans won't agree with me on this. I think there's an element of tragedy of this also because let's, and this, I think this is an absolute key part of the story. At two points in between a brandage taking over Chelsea and the Abu Dhabi take over Manchester City, that club absolutely needed a takeover or it was in real danger. So I think to speak to your point about how brand is changing things, I suppose what it already does is. There's massive inflation. And it's interesting infer and Ano has a book, the, the current mentioned city, CEO that he wrote before he joined the club about the economics of football. And he does point to two major inflation event events, one being abramovich, another being the city takeover, but the initial inflation, first of all, a brandage starts this wave as you, there's a lot of American rollers come into football. That traditional form of kind of English businessman owner. And I quote like the Newcastle owners at that point in this case so John Holland, the like, about how they felt. They just, they just couldn't keep up anymore. Al like, and it was, it was almost like the issue of Bill Kenwright and everything for so long. Just that kind of, that because of their love for the club that will to stay on as long as possible, but they were in a totally different sphere. But because of that then a lot of clubs start to get into financial difficulty because the, the stretch is starting to happen. And remember. This is, this is before financial fair play, which became PSO. So football is really a wild west. It's just kind of wages are set the top every unfollows and there's no one really saying Stop and idiot, despite all the criticism of FFP today. And I think there are, there is very fair commentary about how it's solidifies. A certain status quo that it, it could be complimented by better redistribution rules, but it did put a stop to this, just this chaos in football. But because at the time that chaos was in the brink of putting a number of Premier League clubs into trouble one of them was Manchester City. And so the first time they are, they're, they're saved by the very contr controversial former thigh Prime Minister Texan Sinatra, who ultimately had to, he did. And, and he was, he was another, he was another one. I think he might have marked the first time that a human rights body wrote to the Premier League about an owner.'cause human rights. Human rights watch directly wrote to Scudamore about his record in Thailand about eventually within a year he's a fugitive from justice as a consequence of all that he had to, he had to sell the club. So city are basically, once again, they're on the brink of oblivion. And then. It goes from that. And what I suppose a lot of people would've say, sort was typical city given their old kind of their old, their old association with almost tragic slapstick to just something else entirely. And, you know, it just,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:and, and again and Shake Man store buys the club in. Late, late August 2nd, 2008 is when it's being negotiated. Basically. It doesn't even need to, it doesn't even need to do due diligence because there's so much wealth there. But again, the thinking was, well, it's just like no one could conceive that this was, there was any sort of state link here. It was just be put in the f in the old framework. The Bicon framework, obviously, of this is a very wealthy man who wants to enjoy some football. Yes. Get some business benefits outta it, but it's about, it's about, it's about football really. Whereas actually, if you, as I, I lay on the book, if you read Between the Lions, and actually if you, some directly read some of the lines in some of their original statements, especially from Kal Doon who ultimately became chairman of the club, he's one of the most powerful figures in the in the Abu Dhabi political structure. You can see already, there's actually. There's an overt politicization about this, particularly when Kal Doon starts to talk, and again, this is another almost early Claxton for sports watching. He starts to talk about how, you know, it's almost as if the image of Man city should be a reflection of the image that Abu Dhabi wants to give off.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I was reading that Tony Banks quote and I was wondering if it's the first, so I'll just read the quote out. It's he was former labor sports minister and when, when Abramovich bought Chelsea, we need to look at the source of his money, what his track record has been in Russia. establish whether he's a fit and proper person to take over a football club in this country. I was wondering if that was the first time that phrase was used. I didn't. I'd not heard that fit and proper person
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah. I mean the,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I wonder if it's come from that or he was borrowing it from someone else. I can't,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:I think,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:really know.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:I think my thinking would be he borrowed from what was already a, a very, the Premier League's kind of at that point, very loose. Test for who could buy a club, which has now become the owners and directors test, but it's still not exactly that string. I mean, the Premier League would say they don't publicize who doesn't get to buy a club, but doesn't see too many public examples of who fails.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:You wanna see that list, wouldn't you?
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Okay, so. The response, let's talk about, it's the Premier League, but it's also, I mean, if we broaden this slightly from club ownership, you then get to the sort of FIFA relationship with Saudi, for example. Obviously we know about 2034 and the World Cup, and we also know about the zone
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Mm-hmm.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:You know, in terms of buying or being the sort of subletter of the rights for the Club World Cup this year Saudi buying into D Zone at a small stake, but. The response then of the, of the sort of football authorities.'cause at the moment it feels like the last five to 10 years has been all about that. again, it is really interesting in, there's a, I'll pick out another quote about there's they don't care about the rules. So the rules don't apply to them.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:fundamentally. And there's a, there's a bit and it's not, I like the, the line, you know, it's not like talking to David Dean, you know, if you're in a row with the
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah, yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:you're talking to wait, you know, walls of lawyers and you've got all of that stuff and you've got state actors, it's a different sort of level
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:And story probably is football's governance structure just can't
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Oh, oh
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:it.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:they've gotta go with it or they've gotta be a victim of it.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:And I, I think not only that they can handle it or that they kind of have to kind of make their peace with it and so, or make their peace in terms of what they can do. I. The, the big question now is of course, is the extent of the relationship, especially given it's, it's well known Gianni and Infantino has this friendship. I'm sure he would describe it. I'm not sure how Ham bin Salman would describe it, but Yeah, with the the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia. And that's, I mean, I suppose just take a step back on that. Like this is something I, it keeps occurring to me when I talk about this now, and I, and it's almost mind blowing in its own way, like it. Like what should FIFA be beyond UA for another? FIFA should just be basically the ultimate regulator in the sport. So all of these issues in some ways like ownership, like defining what a club is like the calendar, like what? Like when tournaments take place and what they should look. FIFA should really be, you would think the ultimate regulator, not the ultimate independent regulator. And instead, they're now one of the great disruptors in football the way they just unilaterally imposed the new club World Cup. On, on the rest of the game, no consultation. Even you mentioned there about how to kind of, these states don't feel the rules to apply to them. Well, look, I mean, with the way Saudi has won, quote unquote the 23 4 World Cup, look at some of the, kind of the issues there, and at least in terms of the kind of bidding process, how rules seem to be changed even, even in terms of some of FIFA's own human rights guidelines. And, and this is where this whole thing moves to another level, I think, because yeah. Like classic sports washing would've basically been just hosting a tournament. That's what, that's what we know. That goes back to the, the 1930s, you know, with the, with the Berlin. Berlin Olympics or Italy, 1934 or Argentina, 1978. And then obviously that moves in the modern era. That moves on to sponsorship. We see Emirates everywhere. Then owning clubs and owning clubs is different because I think it, it gives you. You're, yeah. Like it gives an owner part of the infrastructure. They're, they're, they're immersed in it. But I think FIFA's relationship with Saudi points to the next level of this, which is not just owning a club that's part of the infrastructure. It's actually proper integration into the very running of sport. I think that's,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:a really interesting and quite concerning next development with all this.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah, I think you're into interesting territory there.'cause I think we, again, it's something we bounce up against every now and now and
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:is is a, is a governing body and you know, FIFA being one of the biggest. And so there's a question of a, a small govern, you know, small FIFA or big
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Mm-hmm.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I. And what, what do we want? it's gone from one to the other. So you might say that, you know, it's, it's, it's defining itself differently. It's defining itself as a an entertainment brand. It's becoming a sort of media, it's a media company. It's, yeah, it does sell rights, but it's also creating enormous amounts of content itself. Now I wonder, I'm just thinking thread through, which is. If the, if the opposite is okay, we will do what the, the Miguel sort of route, small fifa, what happens then? And actually what you are saying is that you are letting the market decide what happens. And so I think infant's argument, infantino is an interesting figure in many ways as we know. I think there is a, the bit where his strongest card is, the global is
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:question in terms of
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:you know, the sort of Argentinian Brazilian club brands
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:outside of UA F'S So outside of the hotbed of, you know, the Champions league, you've got this other football world and he, that's who he's playing to and we can say he's playing to it cynically
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Sort of that's where the votes are or it's true that those clubs are locked out.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:So I get to the club World Cup and I think Okay, that's where I would go if I was him. That's the, that's the
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:I,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I would continue to tell. The other bit, which I think is a strong card for him, is that, careful what you wish for.'cause if FIFA ain't there,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:or if, then you are into just a super league situation, aren't you? That's,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:well, just, I, I'm just,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:we are
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah. Yeah. And there's two very interesting things there. I mean, first of all, I, I completely agree actually. I think a, a proper club, world Cup. Is quite a noble idea. I actually think it's arguably overdue because we're clearly, as the book makes the case, football, football needs more of its immense wealth to be spread from Western.'cause it's not even really Western Europe. Actually it's about 12 or 10 or 12 urban centers in Western Europe. I mean, that's the whole kind of where we are in modern football. About 10 or 12 clubs grew to this global size. They had this immense power and hence, states want, states wanted a bit of that or any and all sorts of other actors. So that, that needed to be done. I just don't see how Infantino solution actually offers that. I mean,'cause well, for a, there's been no consultation with the wider game. So like there's no kind of, you know, more delicate discussions about, you know, how this is gonna work, what's it gonna do to the calendar, and b well look at the discussion about the prize money. I mean, and even the prize money loan, like the example I often given in these cases that if you're Auckland or even kinda river plate or. If you're given suddenly an extra 10 to$40 million from this tournament, that is game changing for your domestic league. Suddenly you're, and, and of course this has been the exact same problem has been replicated in the Champions League for three decades, where it became an engine of disparity. It gave regular qualifiers too much money, and in many mid to smaller leagues, it just created these. One team competition. So it almost destroyed a lot of domestic competition. And now we're, we're already in a situation where that's becoming dangerous for the wider game because the event the money will get, except it's gonna go one further actually, because, and, and this again, is about the next step where it's very in, it's very interesting and concerning, I mean. Man, city and Chelsea, if they go anywhere close to the distance, they could get close to 90$90 million. Now, at the moment, the agreement is for f first of all, that's gonna be obviously a huge game changer as regards to PSO, which is a massive discussion at the moment. But also at the moment, the agreement is for this work, this club work up take place every four years. Well, once clubs starts seeing this sort of money coming in. Does, do any of us doubt that there's gonna be a move to try and A, make it every two years and b, make it bigger? I mean,'cause like the, the rivals of these, of these super clubs and this is where the power is in the game now.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:they're, they, they're gonna agitate for this. And then as regards kind of even that super league argument, well, this is another kind of, there's a clear trend this, that the end of the book gets to. So FIFA and UFA historically had this power essentially based on this very loose social contract that football has agreed, agreed upon. And there's loads of stuff in that social contract that they were actually, if they were actually challenged in court, they would be overturned. That they don't really make sense. But obviously no one took, no one decided to actually test that because people were aware they needed the game to work. That social contract at the stand, that's something that's starting to change. We're seeing all sorts of act. I mean, there, there's a greater willingness step before to to go illegal. And what we, what we've seen repeatedly now is FIFA ufa losing cases on competition law, and they're often losing'em on the base. Although a, a lot of these judgments have actually mentioned about the kind of the special status of these, of these organizations. Special status of sport. Well, one thing the European Court of Justice pointed to was in fifa ufa. They're actually supposed to be, they're supposed to be concerned about the wider benefit of the game, the kind of spread of wealth, and they're not doing that, that, that, that I think that's damning and that, and that's where again, all of this potentially starts to come apart.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah, and you keep, again, you bump into this sort of, people start to then say, oh, we need American type. of regulation. So you get to a sort of N-F-L-N-B-A structure, which is very controlled. You know, and, and I'm not arguing for this by the way, but that's, that's where you, you sort of, if everything is then taken to court and that social contract as you described it, well comes under pressure, one outcome might be, okay, well let's close down all of that. Ambiguity.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:the ambiguity is where the, you know, the lot of the stuff that we enjoy, you know,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:promotion, relegation and all of those things. The, the culture bit is in the,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah. Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:sort of area. And if you say right now, it's just too risky, we're gonna just. Close it down, we'll have an American type league where the risk is curtailed and away we go. You get to a super league by defacto, and that's, that's the sort of always that question, isn't it? That's hovering over. You got this veiled threat, which again,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:backed up by the state actors who have the money to do what they do. They want what they want with it. There's a, i, I think there's a sort of interesting bit about. Whether it works sports washing, and again, you've mentioned there that sports washing is a sort of, it's a term that's just emerged and we all get it and we
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:it. But I mean, my line is that it's quite a, there is a sort of money laundering analogy that the
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Hmm.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:in, you know, dirty and comes out clean. And actually it doesn't quite work like that. Stories don't work like that.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:it sort of acts a bit more like a, a sort of stadia naming, right? It's like, you know, like your stories around the Newcastle Liverpool game or around
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:human rights abuses is a, is a phrase that gets attached to conversation. And it's almost like acts as a reminder. It's like a sort of, you know, a,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, yeah, yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:cancerous picture on the
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:packet. You know, it's like there, and you can choose to ignore it if you choose,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:interest to do so. But actually it's, it's, it's not, there is an inherent conflict in the objective of using sort of football and culture western culture. And it does, it does, it conflicts with a sort of, you know, authoritarian regime.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Mm-hmm.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:So in it, it, I'm just wondering, I mean, what it's a, it's a question you won't be able to answer, but does it work? Is the, is the
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:I, I, I, I'd say I,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:all the way through.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:I, I think it does work. We actually probably won't know the full consequence really well, maybe for 50 years when basically the suddenly we're in, hopefully a post fossil fuel future, hopefully a greener future. And the, and these, and the outlook of these states is very different, that that's when we maybe see the real consequences. So maybe we can't answer now, but for the moment, I think, I mean, ultimately the goal of this is normalization across all fields, integration across all fields. I think that's worked very well. And I think there, there's an example of that I'll give in a moment. Like, people often think of sports washing. I think in terms of just pure public relations. I think that's caveated auxiliary benefit. I don't think that they care too much about public relations. I think, I think the point there is more they're aware that certain journalists, certain human rights groups will always talk when takeovers happen, when wins happen. But ultimately all of that is, and this is probably where the term. Which I generally think is too soft, actually rework all of that is just washed away because suddenly there's an avalanche and we, and we can see it in the Newcastle victory. I think there's, in that, in that sort of, at least in that, on those public relations terms, I think there's a very clear example of almost the best example of how it works. Well, if you, if you remember in April, 2020. The start of the pandemic. So actually any, any new sports news actually heightens because there's no actual football. That's when it finally breaks that, that Saudi Arabia wants to buy Newcastle or actually engaged in the process, although it, it part, it started back way February 28th, 2019, maybe even earlier. And at that point, obviously there's a huge, an immense pushback against it. There's constant talk of ya, Amal Khashoggi of human rights. Of, of basically every aspect you can think of related to Saudi Arabia. Now compare that to the League Cup final, where, other than a few articles in the aftermath of the game, none of that is really mentioned. I think that's just that, that that's because of the basic process. Normalization. Once, once you're part of the furniture and, and you're just playing games every week, it, it, it's something that, that, that's the process by which something that was unpalatable. Becomes palatable. Now, I know people can, people often respond and I say, well, they already had trade deals with with, with all, all these western powers. And that, that's obviously, that's politik. But the point is just, it's this, it's this kind of all out approach and not leaving anything basically. Not leaving anything despair. And hence because, because it is a very powerful thing to have. The world's game football the most, you know, Tom Holland, like quote in the book, this story describes as the most popular cultural pursuit that's ever lived. So to to, to have that and in football's sphere to suddenly have a situation that, but four years ago, a lot of people found beyond the pale to now have it as like just something that's, that happens to be totally normal. That is an immensely powerful thing. And that also has, has value in all sorts of other spheres.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I wonder if the, the, again, back to the playbook, how it evolves and the, the, it is interesting we focus on Saudi, but you know, there's, there's other examples, but it's sort of interesting how Saudi are turning up in different sports. So
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I, you know, I am a. I'm of the opinion that I, it hasn't worked, you know,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:it's, and I don't think they would do it again now, and I think they're showing up in tennis quite interestingly. So P-I-F-P-I-F are, are sort of going very much, their brand is, is front and center of the
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:in, in women's tennis and that, you know, they're doing press competitions, they've got their own media channel. So there's a, think they, they looked at Liv and it was the sort of. Positioning of PIF and by extension, the Saudi regime as sort of shadowy
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:they, you know, being chased down, going around golf clubs and, and you know, with Rowan, I remember sort of chasing around the,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:the when they were over here for the live
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:So there's a, there's
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Amazing television that actually,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah, it was, and it was but it sort of looks at, there's something. D happening. And I wonder when, and, and you mentioned the play the game stat about the amount of sponsorship that is
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:sport, it's embedded into the system and. Whether or not how their strategy will evolve, I think is quite an interesting question.'cause I think it's sort of changing and iterating. And obviously you've got the Saudi Pro League football and you know, growing their own over there. They've also got the other bit, which is a bit more of a business story, which is the sort of firing of consultants and. The assumed cash cow that, you know, opening an office in Riyadh is going to, you know, every agency is looking at this, and now there's this question of, actually, no, it's all right. We've learned enough from you. We'll do it ourselves. So there's always that
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:But how do you think it's gonna evolve?'cause I, I'm just wondering, as you were talking,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Hmm.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:if Qatar, Cup as a sort of sports washing platform compared to Man
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah, yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Newcastle,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Well, let's not forget
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:is a
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:PSG as well. And
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:in
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:I could be, and because I and I, just to touch on your point there,'cause that's, I was thinking about as you were saying it. Well obviously, I mean PSG has been a kind of a soap opera bit, although they could well win the Champions League this season. But what has actually Qatar managed to do through PSG? Well, Naro Kfi, who's one of the figures closest to Amir, and essentially main job is to answer to the Emir. Well, he's become one of the most powerful figures in European football, and he's at the top of the ECA, which. I suppose many people now see I mean essentially if you see now, now runs the Champions legal uafa. It's a joint venture. I think that opens up all
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:now,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah, well, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and given they've just struck this deal with relevance,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:this whole view over whether this will start a move truly globalized football where, and, and maybe the Champions League becomes the Premier League's real competitor in that way. And so to have a, to have Qatar sitting on the top of that and that, that, that, that's a lot of influence. And also it's, it's a, it's kind of a, it's a, it's touched what you're saying about live golf as well. It's much more. Steadier influence basically the way they've been able to kinda spread in that way without, without the same focus. I think you're right. I think if the Saudis were looking at live golf again, they probably wouldn't do it because there's almost has to be that pre for all people eventually kind of come round to new realities. When some, when some, when a structure they're used to and know and like is broken, it leads to a bit of a hostile response. And that's exactly what happened in golf. And I think you, you can, it might have to be more, it might require more patience, but it's a lot, it's a lot more effective and powerful to be, to, I suppose, do it, try and exert this influence and, and gain kind of a, a proper say in how sport is run, which is what they really want in the way in the way the Qatari did it with the ECA or with the way Na na Nasra has done it in the ECA. But of course we now, we now may actually be seeing that. Given that we've got at least a more comparable level of Saudi influence with the Club World Cup, which might well become this, this ne this, it's, it's possible the future of football is kind of the Premier League, is the main domestic league as this super league, the Champions League, and then the Club World Cup as these three major almost globalized events in different way and with the Club World Cup course. Well, the, the Saudis have bought this, this 10% stake in D zone that has meant that suddenly allowed FIFA to give all this prize money. So that, and, and, and there's, I think there's this view as well, especially among kind of, a lot of, a lot of the European clubs that, of figures that work at that level that what the Saudis don't necessarily want is obviously they want the Saudi Pro League to be very strong, but of much more benefit is having four clubs. A regular four club is a, can play an equivalent to the Champions League because that is real influence.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I hadn't clocked to the prize money question and how the, the sort of, it's adding a layer of distortion on top of
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:already distorted picture. I hadn't realized that that was. as substantial as you've, you've identified actually. So it's quite a, that could have a, you know, a, it's the Champions League money, as we all call it,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:is, you know, distorting things as it stands. So it's quite an interesting feature.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah. I think, yeah, and it's one of the amazing things with the club World Cup I, I don't really sense too much of a buildup to it. I'm not sure how interested people are in the football because it is new. That might change. Sure. I think from what you gather, some people within FIFA are worried about what attendance are gonna be like, but it's almost like this kind of lukewarm view of the football is actually contrasted with. How this could actually be one of the most influential developments in modern football history. Just the very implementation of that. Sorry. The very kind of creation of the event.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:It is quite hard to get out of your own sort of, I'm talking about myself here and my own local.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:view on it, and that's part of the game
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:So one of the responses to, you know, if I, whenever I do something on Saudi, people say, well, it's a very British view. It's a very, you
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Hmm.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:there's a whole world out there. a, there's the, the sort of economic diversification narrative you should be on the side of the,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:The oil states question
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah, yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:so, and I've heard all of those tropes, you know, because
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah. Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:of the sort of comms playbook. But there is, you know, again, you have to that,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Well, on, on, on, on exactly that point, and I, I go into this a little bit in the book, you often hear that this is a kind of a parochial view. It's kind of Western view. I mean, to my mind it's not, I mean, because one of the reasons I I, the reason I love football is I love playing. I love watching it. But one of the great elements that I think really kind of fired my imagination when I was imagination with it when I was young, and as I get older. Was the, I mean, it's basically, it's the kind of the fundamental color of football and the variety and variation and the idea. I mean, I used to like, as a kid, and this lasted, I went into it when I was adult, the idea that like a, a team, you know, from England or from Ireland in my case, or Spain, could go and play an Eastern European team. Or if, if it was the club World Cup, the old club World Cup, the continental. Usually in that case, a Brazilian Argentinian team. And they could give you a proper, exciting game and often really give you a football lesson.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Mm.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:in fact, like that to me was the kind of true romantic football. It's a property, I think a universal view of football, and I don't see how the modern system is serving that in any way. If anything, what we've actually seen is that most of football east of Munich, and in a lot of cases west of Munich, is actually a wasteland in terms of competing. There are increasing questions for UA for now about development of the game even in Western Europe and where numbers are right? And how partly participation numbers have fallen. I'm not, I'm not sure this like, and I get, it's why the kind of next year's World Cup and the Club World Cup are, are so interesting in this. So FIFA have obviously done away. With the local organizing committee, which means the US Soccer Federation and the Federations of Canada, Mexico have essentially been cut out. So all this money has got like, it, it's already been estimated. It's gonna be by far the most commercially valuable World Cup of all time. Maybe revenues of 11 billion. But how much of that is actually gonna go back into the sport? Really? Like how, how, how, how, how much of that is gonna serve US sports, say similar with the Club World Cup? Is the, is the Club World Cup really gonna serve us soccer or are we actually gonna be in a situation now where. Where it just cannibalizes it because it'll just bring more interest in the super clubs. I like, I, I did go into this in the book, sorry, I'm off now, but I go into this in the book. In turn, I, I always call this the,'cause I saw it live the Irish dynamic and I think it's amazing how this is spread around the world. So, and then in up until the 1960s, the Irish Domestic League was very well supported had healthy attendances, and then what happens at the end of the sixties? BBC comes on match of the day. It's beamed into Irish tv and suddenly attendances start to plummet'cause people think, oh, there's a more glamorous level of football over there. And this has been replicated all around the world now. Now look, and in I should stress, I don't blame people for being attracted to this higher level of football or this more glamorous level of football. It's, it's natural, especially if you're a kid. The, the issue there is how slow. Football's authorities were, well, A, to recognize that issue and put in, put in protections, and b, in the opposite case actually, to just, to just run with it. Really, because, I mean, why is the Club World Cup existed? It's, it's existed now because Infantino, he, he knew from being general Secretary of U AFA how lucrative the champions league was, and FIFA wanted a bit of it.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And it's also that tie between. and watching
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:is, you know, really fragile and, and you know, you see it in other spheres like the Olympics and participation around Olympic games. People always, that's the participation. You know, there's an argument to say, look, football on television has, has us want to watch television.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:it's just content. That link is a sort of side issue, terms of going to play. Now you go out and kids are playing. Football but one of the challenges is exactly to your point. You get a lot of sports that are just framed as entertainment
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:you'll get, you're in an era where lots of it's just a TV product. It could be baking, it could be, you know, competitive painting or whatever it is, but it's based on a sports frame. So it is
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:you know, there's winners and losers, a final whistle. There's jeopardy and. Sport is, you know, everyone is looking at golf, tennis, trying to freight, you know, get a Saturday
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:show going. I think actually football is it's other,
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:know, it's so much bigger
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, yeah, yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:other
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Well, but I,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:just massive
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:yeah, yeah. Abso absolutely, absolutely. I mean, there's nothing like that kind of, that big live World Cup game. I mean, like I suppose, and the ultimate example being I. The 2022 final, which now Qatar is forever associated with actually in a positive way. But, but on that one as well, I know this is a real tangent, but the book does get into a little this a bit. I, as you mentioned, that kinda point about wanting it to be entertainment and create entertainment and I often find that is, and I, and this obviously has led into a lot of stuff like that, and Yi and Florentina Perez have said in trying to create the Super league that oh, young people aren't attached to it in the same way. They're not watching it in the same way. But I think that's a complete misunderstanding of how these things work. I mean, a, I didn't watch football in the same way as a 25-year-old, as it as an 11-year-old. You're a kid, you don't have the same concentration levels. It, but it still, it's about kind of getting'em transfixed. And the way you get people transfixed is actual proper events. As you say, you can't, you can't manufacture a true live event like that. It, it has to have stakes that matter. It has to have a buildup that matters. It has to be. So what you're watching actually has, like this, this is why the World Cup or like really latter stage Champions League games become these huge events because there's actually, there's a legacy there. There's, there's a meaning there. And you, you don't really create that by trying to gerrymander sport into something that it's not or make it become entertainment.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely right. By the way, I'm liking Libero. I'm
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Oh, thank you. Thank you. Cheers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I like the I dunno how that works. Is that, so you just, a random group of people
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Basically, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. An element to that. Yeah. Yeah,
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:I like the first one. The first one was there's a, there was a vibe of no one wanting to be there. There was
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:it was, it was next. No, it was very experimental, shall we say.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:you looked like you were being held to ransom, which I quite liked.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:I think that someone else described it as if we committed a bank robbery or hiding out in a basement.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:In fact, you know, that's your, that's your sort of strap line for your thing. Well, I'm gonna point people to the book. They
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Cheers.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:to do that. But congratulations on it.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Thank you, Richard. Thank you.
richard_1_04-03-2025_145055:of play by Miguel Delaney, and yeah, good luck with it.
squadcaster-hdea_1_04-03-2025_145054:Thank you much greatly appreciated.