Unofficial Partner Podcast

UP470 Other People's Money: How patient is patient capital when it comes to women's rugby?

• Richard Gillis

Share episode

Other People's Money is our regular series on sports investment, with Matt Rogan, co-founder of Two Circles.

The Women’s Rugby World Cup kicks off in August, hosted in here in England. The tournament is a critical moment in the game's development. 

But what is the financial state of women’s professional club rugby in this country. 

We talk to Genevieve Shore, herself a former England World Cup winner in 1994, who is now the Executive Chair of Premiership Women’s Rugby (PWR), the league that is part owned by the RFU.

This episode of the Unofficial Partner podcast is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport.

Sid Lee Sport is a new breed of agency that combines world class creativity with deep sponsorship expertise, flawless operational delivery, and a culture of marketing effectiveness. 

We’ve really enjoyed getting to know their team over the last couple of months. They’re an impressive bunch, who believe that sports marketing can and should be done better.

They have a creative philosophy of producing famous campaigns and activations that build buzz and conversation in a category that too often looks and sounds the same.

And they're pioneering a new standard of effectiveness in sports marketing, using econometrics and attribution models to go beyond traditional media ROI.

So if you're looking for an agency to take your brand to the top, get in touch with the team at Sid Lee Sport, where brands become champions.


Unofficial Partner is the leading podcast for the business of sport. A mix of entertaining and thought provoking conversations with a who's who of the global industry.
To join our community of listeners, sign up to the weekly UP Newsletter and follow us on Twitter and TikTok at @UnofficialPartner

We publish two podcasts each week, on Tuesday and Friday.

These are deep conversations with smart people from inside and outside sport.

Our entire back catalogue of 400 sports business conversations are available free of charge here.

Each pod is available by searching for ‘Unofficial Partner’ on Apple, Spotify, Google, Stitcher and every podcast app.

If you’re interested in collaborating with Unofficial Partner to create one-off podcasts or series, you can reach us via the website.



Hello, welcome to Unofficial partner, the Sports Business Podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. Today it's Other People's Money, our regular series on sports investment with co-host Matt Rogan, co-founder of two circles. The subject today is the financial state of women's professional rugby in England in a World Cup year. On the 22nd of August, this year, the Women's Rugby World Cup will kick off. England played the USA at the stadium of light in Sunderland, and the tournament progresses through to a final on Saturday the 27th of September at the Allianz Stadium in Twickenham is There'll be people watching the game across the country from Brighton in the south to Bristol and Exeter in the west through Northampton, Manchester, York, Sunderland, and of course Twickenham. So much to look forward to, but what's the state of the game really? And this is rugby, so it's politics and money, and it's a very complicated question. So we've got Genevieve Shaw in to talk to us about it. Who is a former World Cup winner herself in 1994. And after her very successful business career, she's an the executive chair of PWR, professional Women's Rugby.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

It's small, it's 4 million pounds, it's not a big business. But good news is it's got a 10 year funding model, so fair play to the RFU. It is not easy for people to make long-term decisions. Is it in this environment and in these markets and in this world. And the board of the RFU made a decision back in 2022 to make a 10 year commitment to PWR.

This episode of Unofficial Partner is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport. Sid Lee Sport is a new breed of agency that combines world class creativity with deep sponsorship expertise, flawless operational delivery. And a culture of marketing effectiveness. We've got to know the team over the last few months. They're an impressive bunch who believe that sports marketing can and should be done better. They've got a creative philosophy of producing famous campaigns and activations that build buzz and conversation in a category that too often looks and sounds the same. And they're pioneering a new standard of effectiveness in sports marketing using econometrics and attribution models to go beyond traditional media, ROI. So if you're looking for an agency to take your brand to the top, get in touch with the team at Sid Lee Sport where brands become champions.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I better say hello to Matt Rogan, my regular co-host as he is described in the, uh, in the introduction. Hi Matt.

Matt Rogan:

there. Feels quite regular now. I think this is number seven. Number eight, maybe.

Richard Gillis, UP:

It is. Yeah. And the, the feedback is good. I get, I was, we were out in town. We had an Unofficial Partner do, which was a very sort of informal pub based do and uh, there was quite a lot of people there referencing it other people's money. So it's, it's, uh, caught the imagination is what I, what I always say.

Matt Rogan:

knew? would've believed

Richard Gillis, UP:

I dunno, money, who knew, who knew about money. So, and welcome Gu Viv.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Thank you.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I think we should start off with a traditional question of, of what it is you do all day.'cause we've got loads of questions which are relating to various bits of rugby and the sports business and investment and all of those, all that stuff. But let's just talk about you for a minute. Give us a bit of a bit of biography and also the, the sort of the main day job.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

sure.

Matt Rogan:

my hand up? Sorry. Can I just put my hand up quickly? Let's get the name right, Genevieve or Gu.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Genevieve. Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

Let's get that. Let's get that right. Otherwise, if we

Richard Gillis, UP:

What did I say?

Matt Rogan:

G gu, I think.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

vie. Is it Genevieve? Sorry,

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I went through the first six years of school being called Guinevere, uh,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Genevieve.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

teacher. So, I'm kind of used to it now. There's not many Genevieve's around in England, so, uh, it's all right when I go to France. Very common name. But yeah, no, lovely to be here. Really looking forward to it. Feel a bit selfish that I'm hoping to pick your brains as much as, uh, you might be hoping to pick mine, but uh, I'm looking

Richard Gillis, UP:

Good luck with that.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I won't bore you too much with the bio'cause it's kind of gone on a long time now. I feel like I've been working many decades. But yeah, started off in publishing and media and did quite a bit of time in that sales and marketing that might become apparent. I feel like I've almost come full circle really. And then had a sort of lucky opportunity right at the beginning of the sort of digital. World, uh, universe whenever it happened in 2006, 2007, and was given the opportunity to become the chief digital Officer for Penguin. Books sort of rode that wave really. and thank you Jeff Bezos. Thank you, uh, apple at the time and for creating the iPhone and the Kindle and all of those good things, which made me look very good in a content business, uh, very quickly and then ended up doing. Uh, moving more into core technology really became the Chief digital Officer for Pearson PLC. So ended up looking across financial times, all the different newsprints data businesses, education, as well as kind of sticking with my first love of publishing and books as well. so did that for a while. Ended up as Chief Information Officer there. You know, all that transition that we had to do in 2010 11, where we had to take all that old infrastructure and try and move it to the cloud and build software on top of things that had not been designed to be built on. So, did a lot of work there. Worked across, uh, in the states a long time at that point. Had a great fun building out product teams in Asia and China and Singapore and, uh, all sorts of things like that. And then basically got to 2014 and thought, right, oh gosh, I seem to be out of the country 250 days a year. Time for a change. And Decamped as we've just been chatting about to the Highlands and thought, right, I'm gonna do something completely different. And went on a bit of an i Ned journey you know, in that lucky moment really where suddenly went, oh, do you know what, we might put some women on some boards. What do you think? And I was a woman helpfully uh, digital and technology and sales and marketing. And I'd also sat on the board at Pearson. Uh, so some kind of good exec background as well. So there you are. So then I did five or six years doing that, and then somehow I've ended up. Running a very, very small sports business, uh, PWR Premiership Women's Rugby and was sitting as a INN at the RFU and helping the fantastic women's strategy team there. Think about how they needed to take the elite women's programs forward and work with them for a year on what it might look like to take what was then Premier fifteens into a new joint venture. And we can get into a bit of detail on that and worked on that for a year. And then got to the stage where said, right, we'd better appoint a chair. Will you help us do the appointment? at that point I was like, oh, hang on a minute. I dunno if I want to let this go. I've been working so closely on it and sort of put my hand up and went through the process. And they sort of had to appoint me really. So yeah, so I became the chair and that seems to be now my day job. Morphed into seven days a week. Uh, working, I became the exec chair last year. The chief exec decided to move on, so I stepped in to be a sort of hybrid role of executive and chair of the business. It's only small, so I can manage that. Yeah, really loving it.

Richard Gillis, UP:

let's Talk about what the business is then give us a, you, you say it's very, very small, but just give us a, you know, for someone, just a complete blank slate. Give us an idea of the size and where the money comes from you know, let's just start with the basics.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

are, uh, premiership, women's rugby, nine clubs, operating a cup and a league competition over the season. it's a joint venture with the RFU, so we've got 10 shareholders. RFU are 25% and the clubs share the rest out between them. And yeah, it was set up originally, P fifteens was originally set up way back in 2018 by Nikki Ponsford who was working at the Rugby Football Union at the time. She's now the director of Performance for World Rugby. So she was obviously doing something right. she's now running elite performers for the whole game globally, and

Matt Rogan:

And

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

what we do. So we run those competitions the transition, I suppose, came from it being a wholly owned. Competition at the top of the community game pyramid, by the RFU to making the decision 2022 to say this is probably not going to grow to its full potential. Sitting on the side of some people's desks in the RFU and it needed to be taken outside of that environment turned into a facing market facing business that allowed all of the clubs that were investing heavily to also have just some skin in the game. And you know, if we're honest, more of a say. Over how it's led, developed, managed, governed, all of those kind of good things that we know in sports leagues, uh, that can be bones of contention between governing bodies and clubs. so it was separated out. It's a standalone joint venture and uh, we have our own board and shareholding meetings and those kind of things. It's small, it's 4 million pounds, it's not a big business. and we can get into the detail of why is it not bigger But good news is it's got a 10 year funding model, so fair play to the RFU. It is not easy for people to make long-term decisions. Is it in this environment and in these markets and in this world. And the board of the RFU made a decision back in 2022 to make a 10 year commitment to PWR.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So what does that mean? That means they pay

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah. So they

Richard Gillis, UP:

a subsidy.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

they provide a 10 year runway of funding, which gives us the security to operate basically and gives our clubs the security to operate. So they were always going to have to operate elite women's club program at any point. So we've kind of baselined that and built that in and they've made that commitment to keep going. Our goal now is on top of that, is to create revenues through different models. That supplements that and allows us to move beyond what I would call baseline operating into an investment cycle

Richard Gillis, UP:

So what proportion of the income comes from the RFU?

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

at 80%.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay. And then, so the plan is that you, that figure comes down over time.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

is

Richard Gillis, UP:

I.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

the where we go is that RFU funding remains pretty constant we grow the commercial revenue and therefore we can also grow a different kind of investment cycle, but also we can return more money to our club shareholders. Because the other thing we have to say here is that our club shareholders are making huge investments in the women's game. all the investment that takes place at club is on the club shareholders to do. So it's sort of. Equitable in that the RFU is putting in base funding, but so are the club shareholders.'cause they're running the franchises, running the teams. And you know, we all know it costs a lot of money to run an elite sports team, even if they're not taking home the salaries of male players. It still costs a lot of money to invest in the performance environments, the coaching team, the s and c, the nutrition, the infrastructure, the grounds. So our, we are incredibly lucky in rugby in that we have these amazing owners who are making this commitment and investment and they're also long term.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So what's the. In terms of the makeup of the clubs in the league, does it mirror those in the men's league? Is that,

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Almost,

Richard Gillis, UP:

is that an exact match?

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

diagram. So we've got a couple of different, uh, changes. It would've looked different a few years ago, wouldn't it? But it is slightly closer now than it was when we first started. But we have eing trail finders in our league and they sit in

Richard Gillis, UP:

Right.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

in the men's, and then we don't have Bath or Newcastle in our league. And then we have a slight other difference in the Northampton is a joint venture with Loughborough University, so we have a team called Loughborough Lightning, but it is actually Northampton Saints as well. so yeah, it's slight, it's close, but not quite the same.

Richard Gillis, UP:

And it, and, sorry, it's just, it is interesting just to get the, the,'cause every league is different, every situation is different and it's just, it's useful just to have, have it, uh, you know, established. So is there a a proportion of each club are they committed to saying, right, okay. If it's 10% of revenue, it goes to the women's side. Does it work that way? Or is it a case by case basis?

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

different actually. Because every club has got a different financial structure, ownership structure, and some of them, you know, saran have had a women's team for. Uh, she coughs loudly, uh, 32 years. I played in Sarason in the second season of their when they first set up a women's team. And

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Tigers had never had a women's team until two years ago. So it's very different models in each club. What we have is, uh, minimum operating standards, which basically control the baseline level of investment. So we set the minimum operating standards. We did that through a tender process right at the very beginning of this selection and club selection. And that basically dictates what you have to spend. and then we have a salary cap on top of that, which dictates what you spend on your squad. So it's, it's not massively dissimilar across the clubs, but there is a range.

Richard Gillis, UP:

And that is a closed league.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

It

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

So

Richard Gillis, UP:

So that, is that a 10 year, is that part of the 10 year

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah. I mean, I,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I sometimes flip between the words, shareholders, clubs, and you know, that's easy for me to say. I realize they mean very, very different things depending on who the audience is. But I suppose, I mean, I'd almost describe as, as hybrid franchise. We are not quite a franchise in that the clubs and the league operate decision making models in a way that perhaps a true franchise And that the league makes a lot more of the decisions. So we operate more collaboratively and concurrently in the way that you would expect a joint venture to operate rather than a straight franchise. But we also don't operate like. The top of the pyramid of a community game with the NGB making all the decisions. you, I'm laughing because the shareholders agreement and the separation and delegation from the RFU took a couple of years to negotiate. but we're all friends and we came out the other side in a good place, I think. And it's really important when you do these, you've got to spend time on that you know the how, why do JVs fall apart? Why do partnerships fall apart? Because everybody doesn't like the agreement they signed. actually better to have all of those conversations upfront and then get into operating rather than rush to operate and then realize you've got buyer's remorse.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Was is sort of a theme, Matt, isn't it? In terms of the, of, of the series that we've had in terms of the, the problems are in the sort of origin story of it

Matt Rogan:

for, for

Richard Gillis, UP:

somewhere.

Matt Rogan:

I mean, I, you know, I remember us talking, uh, we were talking to Sportable, ironically, another rugby heritage business around going slow to go fast, know, getting your business model clear, getting your ways of working clear in particular in a world when you're there. Then going to look for external finance, be that investors, be that commercial partners,

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

might be, you know, to know the, what happens if.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

have, have those in a piece of, of paper is extremely important. So as you say, it's a, it's a key theme. And I guess that's, it feels like a similar sort of stage that PWR is out Genevieve to some of those earlier sort of fast growth conversations Rich and I have had previously where it's a case of you've had a couple of years iterating the proposition sorting out how things are done, getting the governance clear. You've got some money coming in, there's a litany of new partners. Even just the last few

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

is, it is, does it, where do you feel like, do you feel like you're a, you're a kind of, you put your investor hat on, say are you a, are you sort of at that venture capital stage, so you sort of looking for the next kick on, or is it, it earlier than that? So if you're later in that, if you were a business, like a normal inverted comm business, where would you be in that continuum?

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I was thinking about this the other day. So, you know, I had great fun building technology businesses and working with a lot of entrepreneurs, when I was at Pearson, where I spent a lot of time with our seed fund and investment fund, but also post that, sat on a board of a great company called Next 15, which was an aim listed company that did m and a in the advertising and digital space. we did 17 acquisitions one year, which is great fun. If you're on a board, you're supposed to be doing a couple of

Richard Gillis, UP:

Blind me.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

or something. but I would say we're way past proof of concept, which was sort of early years of P fifteens, minimal viable product. I think probably year one of what we were doing where we were sort of definitely finding our feet. MMR release. I think probably this season just finished. I feel really good about where we finished the season. Sort of got, definitely got into a rhythm of understanding who we were, why we were there, you know,'cause you can do the mission, vision objectives, that's great, but you've actually also got to deliver. And I feel like this year is a great growth story for lots of metrics, not necessarily commercial, uh, but all the underlying metrics that you would expect to see in a business. Do you, do your, do the customers want it? Are they finding you when they find you, where they're engaging with you? Are they spending more with you? You know, what's your basket size? You know, sort of like all of those good metrics that you would expect to see in a consumer business. Which we are,

Matt Rogan:

Yeah.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

starting to sort of motor along now. So you feel like year three, instead of being in the, you know, what do Gartner call it? The slough of despondency, which is, I dunno if you've ever seen those hideous scar charts,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

we're still in that growth spurt. So the challenge now for the board, I think, and for our shareholders is do we now double down on that year? And do we kind of go, right, more growth, more growth, keep the proof points coming, or are we actually at the stage where we're going, we're pushing up against organic growth we need more investment in to kind of supercharge. That's, I think the decision making, but you know, it's fine grained, it's year three or it's year four.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So just a, let's, let's pick up on that.'cause it's an interesting question and it's one that talks to the sort of theme of this series, really, which is always, I think the interesting question is what the cost of the money is in a broader sense. So if you are looking at an, you know, an investment partner and you can sort of see that there's a sort of organic growth and then there's a sort of supercharging of the organic growth. Can you get to where you want to go quicker? Will you need external money? And then at that point, what are the options? In relation to that and people's heads will go, you know, it's rugby and private equity has been in and out rugby or in rugby to varying degrees of success over the last sort of five to five years. And that story has been interesting to follow for lots of people in the sports business more generally because it's sort of the, the promise of private equity versus the reality, the politics of sport, the politics of rugby, and all of those things. So just take me through what you think that external finance, whether, you know, I'm asking you say it's gonna happen today or in the next year, but what do you think about in terms of that question? It's relationship to what is quite a messy sport. I'm talking about sport generally is a messy investment. It's not, it's not a factory.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

No, it's really interesting, isn't it, because I think I worked for an amazing woman called Marist Garino, and she always used to say, you can take other people's money, but you better take it seriously. And, uh, I'm sure she got that from somebody else, but it, it's a great maxim to live by, isn't it? Because I already take other people's money. You know, the RFU money is. The member's money and the club owner's money is their money and their family money in many cases. So we already take other people's money and we already therefore have to operate with that mindset in place. If you were going to look and say, well, who else could join that? you, you've gotta have fit, you know, so there's no point trying to go out and sort of, you know, mosh together monster you know, club money and NGB money and then let, let's find somebody else. So you've gotta think about who would fit there or you know, who would replace who, you know,'cause I think, you know, so that, that those are your two choices there. You either try and find somebody that fits, which is probably gonna look like, you know, we're only scratching the surface of commercial. Commercial partnerships. So are not even at the start of our journey really, of what a really genuine, long-term commercial partnership and investment via a traditional model might look like. And I include our broadcast partners in that as well as, you know, what a title sponsor might look like. So that's really important. I think that to look at that money and say, in this with us? Are we, is it an equitable partnership? Are we delivering back to them? know, I do look at the women's sports market around the world and I think it feels frothy. It feels, you know, internet 2.0. Unfortunately I was there then as well. So, uh, it feels, you know, the, there's some warning signs there. I think we have to take.

Richard Gillis, UP:

No, nobody's ever linked those two things together. You are keep, keep, keep that quiet. You are the, you know, the link between those two.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

oh my God. Maybe I'm the wrong. Yeah. But we don't wanna know if I'm the, uh, contributing factor. So I think that's interesting. I think there's the, you know, we've talked about this before in different spaces. Patient capital, what do we mean when we say that? But there's definitely people who want a return, but they think about a return over 10 years or 20 years, and they think about a return, as in, this was just sitting in the market single digit, but I'm not really contributing to anything. Can I find a way to help that kind of return? But actually you're also contributing to a change in girls' health, wellbeing, you know, a big

Richard Gillis, UP:

What does, what does? I think that, that phrase is, has always interested me patient capital, because I always assumed it's just something people say. I, you know, I just don't think money is patient. I don't think that side of the equation, unless it's a sort of, there are geopolitical, you know, unless it's a Saudi bet, you know, or a sports washing thing, or it's a, just tell me what you think patient capital means.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I think

Matt Rogan:

mean, I think

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

it's also about scale, isn't it? Because we are not talking about an enormous scale business here. So I mean, I, I think I'm patient capital and some of the work that I do outside of rugby, you know, I've just invested in a distillery with my family partner. We don't, you know, that's 20 years, 30 years. you know, I think I'm still quite young, but I'm not expecting those guys to turn around something for me, and I don't have an exit strategy.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So the classic rugby club owner would be patient capital in the, in that sense.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

degree.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So there's a sort of patronage rather than investment.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah. And it depends what you think return is, you know,'cause there's financial return and then there's reputational return, there's community return, there's social return, there's return to your family, you know, and what you legacy return. I mean, I think all of those things are incredibly valid and I've seen those, you know, I did some small ed tech investments watching, you know, a small business flourish and then founders walk away wealthy. I'm really happy with that. You know, I got a small return, but actually excited to see the rest of those guys' lives.

Matt Rogan:

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I've, I've helped a family fund I shouldn't say who, but Swiss family Fund that have done some investments outside of sport in the uk and they'll have a, a wing of that, that's explicitly commercial. looking for exit windows within five years or so, and they're very clear. They look, that's their investment horizon, but they also have a, a piece of the jigsaw puzzle that takes a broader perspective when

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Hmm.

Matt Rogan:

a little bit like the distillery example. So, some of them are, uh, in the education space, some of them are in the wellbeing and health space. And, and in that case they're looking at 10 year, 15,

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

And Sure, financially, I think probably their objectives would just break even plus. but really if they're making a broader social contribution, things that balances their, and, and it's a lower risk investment to some extent, it balances out there. They sort of b bash bsch in their main fund approach, then they're very comfortable with that. And, and, my view would be that, especially with, I. A space like women's rugby, which is just at the precipice of that tipping point. Anyone, I'm always lucky I was with my daughter who's a Bristol Bears fan, uh, for reasons we might come on to at, at the PWR final. And she doesn't play rugby, but she's a fan for the next 15, 20

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah,

Matt Rogan:

she'll be watching the Women's Rugby World Cup this summer. Uh, and that's, she's a long-term game

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

yeah,

Matt Rogan:

in terms of her disposable income. And so for me, any investment would be also, I would imagine,

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

yeah. And.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Does that change the culture of the sport? So there's a, again, we're getting to a bigger question, which again is not just specific to women's rugby, but I think it's a really interesting area in that I just think, I wonder if I, if I'm giving a 20 year patient capital, guaranteed 10 year runways, all of these things, the pressure to perform and the, the culture within the sport is gonna be different. And if it's a private equity or venture capital three years and out someone, you know, in the classic cliche, someone's on my back. Day in, day out, and it's going to, you know, they're gonna get their money back, whatever, and I'm gonna have to start to make fast decisions. Both of those are cliches really, you know, but somewhere in the middle. And actually I can sort of see the need for urgency and speed and growth because both, you know, just in for, you know, women's rugby for example, there is a moment and Elona Mayer and the, you know, is a, is a moment that needs to be capitalized upon. And without urgency, it would be easy to let that moment slip.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

totally, I mean you, that, that is absolutely kind of tight rope that I think, not just women's rugby, but women's rugby in 2025 because of the World Cup and Theona Mayor effect, and, you know, coming out of the Olympics, et cetera. All of those things, you are right. If we're kind of complacent and think, oh, well this is gonna happen because women's sports is on the rise, we'll miss the moment. So you've got to kind of balance that urgency around building the market, building the fan engagement, supporting the players into really high performance athletes, those kind of, that into the league through improved performance also capitalizing on, as I mentioned, the growth stats that we're seeing, you know. Social media up like hundreds and hundreds of percent. Not just alone mar driven, but you know, if we can reach 25 million people with an Instagram post, you're talking, are reaching an audience. At the other end of the scale, you know, it's smaller, but 2 million people watch PWR matches on television this year. That's double the year before. So is it gonna be double again? You know, and the, the sort of stadiums we are starting to see at tendencies come up, and it's of course happening internationally first, but it's also happening, you know, if we can get, we are getting 8,000 into a stadium to watch standalone women's game, that's a business. You can make a business outta that. So you are kind of, you're trying to kind of ride that wave and drive that wave. And then you are also saying. Yeah, but we've gotta think what's the right decision for five years, 10 years? Because you know, 2018 Women's Rugby World Cup in Ireland, only 50,000 people watched the whole tournament

Richard Gillis, UP:

In the stadium. Yeah.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

less on television, to be honest. I think they only showed one game 2025. You know, they've sold 275,000 tickets already and they haven't released all the tickets yet. Not even, not even for the final, but they haven't released all the tickets yet. So that, you know, you could be looking at 10 x in less than 10

Richard Gillis, UP:

And what explains that growth?

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I think it's a society change, isn't it? I mean, got societal change, so you've got macro societal change. Great. But you've also got that kind of, I do think. England win winning the winning the Cricket World Cup two. I mean, everybody forgets that. Everybody talks about 2022 England Cricket, women's Cricket team winning the World Cup in 2018. That was a big moment that got coverage 2022. Big moment. So I think we've also seen this seven years as a kind of really pivotal moment where broadcasters are interested at tendencies are up in the stadiums investment to NGB. know, you, you can't underestimate, you know, you've had. And the improvement in Women's Elite performance sports needed NGB support, and pretty much all the NGBs have come to the party now, and there are proper, serious talent identification, confirmation development programs in place investment in the top level of the team, whether that's the Red Roses or the lioness, et cetera. That means people are actually aware that those teams exist, and when you go and watch them, they're absolutely brilliant to watch.

Matt Rogan:

that I think is, is fundamental. You know, if you speak to you speak to women's cricket, had to work really hard on the quality of fielding

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yes.

Matt Rogan:

'cause that was one of the things actually that let down the product on the pitch, quality of women's football sort of close skill was super important rather than just pure athleticism. And from a, from a rugby perspective, you'd know far back than I, but it seems to me having been to watch, uh, women's and men's rugby in the last year, women's rugby feels much more akin to the rugby I grew up watching, where you have athletes of all different shapes and sizes, uh, able to go out onto a pitch and put and put a game together that feels, it's just really enjoyable to

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

As distinct to. a little bit like the NFL, which is what the men's game felt like to me when I was watching that. It was just piles of people on the ground and I couldn't really tell why any decision would being made. I think, I think it's a bundle of a bundle of things. And I think what, what was interesting to me, having to been to all of those, what was interesting to me about rugby, being at the final, it's that notion of, you know, having patient long-term investment, but also having the support of the whole industry in regards to it.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Hmm,

Matt Rogan:

I think I'm right in saying when I was at the final, there were, you'd invited all the players from all the teams and players, from all the teams who come to watch

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

You wouldn't see that in the FA Cup final

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah,

Matt Rogan:

game of

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah,

Matt Rogan:

League. Gary never wouldn't have turned up to watch Liverpool win it. You know, it's just a, it's a slightly different cultural mindset in women's sport in general. And rugby in particular, I think means it's a 10 year sort of system investment as opposed to, you

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

yeah,

Matt Rogan:

know, just inverted comm the league.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

yeah, definitely. I mean, it's,

Matt Rogan:

I.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

you know, if, if we only focus on the league. We won't get it right. So half of you asked me right to the beginning, sorry. I do talk a lot.

Richard Gillis, UP:

it's good on a podcast.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

what do I do all day? Well, part of what I do is also say, our pro, what's our program for training more female coaches? Uh, what's our program for getting more female match officials? You know, even in the PWR, only 18% of our games were officiated by women. And that's not because. There aren't enough high quality elite female ath uh, match officials. It's'cause there aren't enough female match officials. you know, a lot of the work I still do is back working with the RFU to say the commitment to coaching? Where's the commitment to athletic performance? Where's the commitment to match officials? And, you know, they are doing all of those things, that is part of the next 10 year plan. It can't just be PWR roars away and nine clubs and 600 athletes do incredibly well and the rest of the system isn't moving. But, you know, I'm confident we've got Alex Teesdale running women's strategy at the RFU. So, uh, I'm comfortable that she's got all, all of that under control.

Matt Rogan:

I, I think there's a real, there's a real question here I'm not convinced, I can't think of a league that an existing in a, in a kind of inver traditional sport that's done investment. Well,

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Mm

Matt Rogan:

you know, if you look at I don't know, the, the, the sort of the nightmare child of investment being CBC, putting money into League One, uh, league in, in in France, football securing again, securitizing it against revenue streams in broadcast that just weren't

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

mm.

Matt Rogan:

You know, if, if you look at someone like an IMG putting it, putting its money into Rugby League, that's been a challenge

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

right? Because you're investing in something that has a real hardcore fan base that likes being done a certain

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah,

Matt Rogan:

a, there's a presumption there. You're gonna change the league, you're gonna take out relegation, you're gonna, gonna do other things with media distributions to drive revenue that, uh, and all of a sudden, immediately you're up against a fan that wants a traditional fan that wants thing

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

yeah.

Matt Rogan:

ways.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

I think it's, if you look at the examples that have worked, commas, you know, DCB building the Hundred, use their own cash invested, their own cash to build something new with their own control of all the parameters, uh, and ultimately started to monetize that through new franchises opposed to the league

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

But retain the ability to create new franchises. But if you look at the more recent ones, even, you know, TGL Golf or Baller League or whatever it might be. You know, kind of created their own, their own setups that this seemed to work. It seems to me with something like this though, it's way early enough you can write your own rule

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

insofar as you can negotiate your own parameters. You've got enough flexibility around the model you management team with ambition you, you kind of radiate. So you think, well if, if there is a league that can do it properly, surely, you know, that doesn't have the baggage of history, but has the opportunity of a, of a nascent fan base and an existing one, there must be, there must be ways that you can push it on at pace.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think,

Matt Rogan:

I mean, I

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

you know, other things, you know, we've, I don't wanna be frustrated about getting the commercial revenue in.

Matt Rogan:

mm-hmm.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

to do it, but I don't wanna, I don't want that to frustrate us I think if we go five years, hence we'll look back at that problem and say, that was a small problem.

Matt Rogan:

Yeah,

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Because you know that that's the growth. The growth stats say we're gonna be able to generate commercial revenue. That's where that's going. It might just be on a slightly different curve in terms of interest and excitement than we're currently on, but that wouldn't be unusual. when I think about what are the, are the structural positives, license from the RFU. Tenure operational funding baseline the RFU and from the clubs JV with agility, but with genuinely decision making capabilities from the shareholders. Not constrained by sources. You know, I have to say heritage brands as well. you can discount heritage brands in this merry world of new franchises and new formats. But you know, Leicester Tigers mean something. Northampton Saints mean something. Sales shop these, you know, and then combine that with the knowledge that sits in that group of people as well. Incredibly lucky. And then the sort of icing on the cake, really superstar female athletes. I think we, we have not seen yet have we in this market what impact superstar female athletes are gonna have. had a taste of it with some of the WSL players and some of the American, uh, footballers, soccer, and and obviously with a l mayor, you know, the most influential person in rugby is a American woman

Richard Gillis, UP:

what's the situation at the moment in terms of the commercial revenue? Is it at, you know, in terms of, is it media rights and sponsorship? Just talk, talk me through that picture

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

traditional triumvirate, isn't it, of rights sponsor, partner, interchangeable words. I'm learning this industry and, uh, fans and at tendencies, you know, so that kind of triangle feels super familiar.

Richard Gillis, UP:

and what's the rights market like around women's rugby? I.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I think you.

Richard Gillis, UP:

For, for those categories.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

isn't it, for broadcast because you know, an enormous amount of women's sport is still to be seen, you know, so whether that's production or smaller rights, fees or investing in streaming and YouTube, we are no different from that. And you know, t and t are brilliant partner, absolutely brilliant. I mean, they have really given their all, I think in the last two years and a, a significant part of we are where we are in terms of visibility, credibility, commitment to parity in terms of broadcast.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Do they, do they and they don't pay a rights fee? You,

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

do. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

they do.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

a good rights deal with them over the last two years. But you know, it's not the dial, but it's good and really happy with it. And then they make a significant investment outside of that as well in terms of the sort of, you know, production values that they bring, marketing over indexing. So I think Scott and his team there have done a really great job for us actually. We are. Going to market, and uh, for a new deal.'cause we only had a two year deal, which I think even then was probably brave of them to do. Go from nothing to a two year deal. So we're looking for a longer term partnership this time. And then we've got to also decide what the balance between that paid TV behind a paywall and free to view looks like. and every

Richard Gillis, UP:

Hmm.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

is doing this. It's not just women's sport. Every sport is doing this, aren't they? So how do we balance that eyeballs versus investment?

Richard Gillis, UP:

We're doing a, a, a live podcast at the EBU in a few weeks in SLAs, their annual assembly. And one of the questions we are asking is, what is free to air television in the age of YouTube and actually what the, what it means now and what the, the sort of expectation on the part of rights holders are of, you know, what, what the value exchange is. You know, that reach and revenue

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

How do you view that question? Because we've seen women's football, you know, they've built the, you had the FA player, the OTT thing, and then they've switched from that and gone onto YouTube with Sky, with the BBC in there as well. So you can start to see a sort of hybrid emerging. It feels, I mean, the obvious question is reach at this stage in the equation, but how do you, how do you view that marketplace?

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I was listening to your podcast last week. I think it's a really interesting model, isn't it? Because it's going to be a hybrid, and I think, listen, I've, you know, I've sort of experienced so many. Live through the app, boom. Live through, everybody's gonna have their own player. Everybody's gonna have their own reader. Everybody's gonna have, you know, big platforms win.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

the installed customer base will win, uh, in streaming and digital. So you could, I could go off and spend millions creating the PWR player. I'm not going to YouTube is there, Instagram is there, TikTok is there, discovery is there. TNT, you know, the, the big platforms will win. And even then they won't all win. You know, only some of them will survive. You know, will Netflix Paramount, Amazon, apple are already proving that Disney, you know, if they're all fighting with each other, then there's no room for small players. I don't think that would be my prediction. So you have to go where the eyeballs are. Wayne Gretzky. So you have to go where the eyeballs are. So you, you know, I also think this is really important because on that conversation you were having with Skye I thought was really interesting because some of our eyeballs are new and are on TikTok and are on Insta and are on YouTube, and some of our eyeballs are already love rugby and they're on TNT or they might be on Sky or ITV or BBC. And you know, we are so small we can't alienate anybody. Like, you know, we are like getting the top of the funnel come in. you know, and we're, I think we're way too soon to be just making fine grain choices about how we might direct our audience. We should be letting our audience direct us. So we'll go where the fans are. And our fans want streaming. You know, they, sort of young fans want streaming. They want to watch it on the phone you know, the traditional cliches of digital consumption. But we are, other fans also want to sit at home with a open, a nice can of something cold feet up and they might watch three sporting events on a Saturday or a Sunday, uh, and really, really enjoy that. And, and I want them to be our fans too.

Richard Gillis, UP:

What did you make of the, I was quite surprised. And we talk about the podcast with, uh, Claire Kelly from Gemba and, and Joe Osborne from Sky Sports, who's head of women's sport. So the message there was that there is a sort of silent majority of people who are look watching both men's and women's sport. And I, as you'll have heard, it sort of surprised me because I, the story has been, it is a different audience. So it needs a different product. It needs to be targeted, handled in a different way at each level of the value chain. And if that isn't the case, then what's the commercial basis of women's rugby? You know? So if it's a, if there is a, again, it's story versus data I can see an alone, Mayer story, I don't know if there's enough numbers there to justify, you know, if I'm a sponsor or if I'm a broadcaster. Is this a marketplace that is valuable enough? Are people gonna buy subscriptions on the basis of PWR? Those really hard commercial questions, which I, you know, again, you mentioned the women's sport thing being frothy. One of the questions is, is where is it in this, you know, in the hard yards of flogging stuff, in terms of whether subscription subscriptions, selling eyeballs, selling, you know, what sponsors want. What do you think?

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

no, I love flogging stuff, so it's good. They it really resonated me with, with me that conversation I spent a lot of time in consumer goods and sitting around listening to marketing presentations free, all marketeers, uh, around customer segmentations and ideal customers and things. are not burys, you know, we are not, we are a small sector of a small sport. for me, I'm kind of at the stage where I'm like, grow. job is growth. Our job is just grow awareness, grow eyeballs, even in seven years time. Let's do, you know, or eight years time next rugby World Cup in the United States. I've got the luxury of market segmentation and consumer messaging via segments and categories. I'll, I'll be absolutely delighted and I'll, I'll give the team a big pat on the back. but I think at this stage that is a really hard call to make. We are tracking two things, uh, really close, well, three, we track size of audience obviously, and then we are tracking under 35 because I think that is really key for rugby. you know, we are traditionally seen as an older sport. Actually, that's not true. Rugby has brilliant participation under 16, like, and it's growing all the time. So rugby is a growth sport at the young end in participation. job is therefore to say, how do I. Get that under 30 fives audience interested in what we are doing PWR and then gender.'cause I do think commercially it is, you know, we cannot underestimate the female power of spending you know, it is an untapped market in sport. It really is. You know, we know women love sport. We know women will go to sports events. We'll spend money on subscriptions. We'll buy merch. We'll, you know, commit the whole family to events. So we know that happens. And so our, we are competing in, in that market now. But we're also trying to kind of engage, I think with commercial partners who traditionally, particularly for rugby, focus on that male decision maker. You know, so that's where you see a lot of insurance and a lot of banking and a thing. But actually, is that right? I, I sat on the Board of Money Supermarket for a long time 86% of the decisions made around insurance, banking, credit cards, home finance, were made by the female of the house.

Matt Rogan:

Yeah, it was, it was so interesting being at being at Sarah's for the final, just watching groups of fans wander around the stadium.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

'cause actually, yeah, I've been, I've been to Sarah's when the crowd's been a lot more male focused and seeing people make decisions purely on which bar was closest. But if you watch clusters of people walk around, the, the stadia at Sarah's, I would say 99% decisions were made by women.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

Some of the, in terms of where, uh, where people ate, where they went for a drink, whether they went and looked, checked out some of the sponsor activation stuff. And actually most of the time it was the youngest girl in group. You know, so that you can market in such an overs simplistic way of say, this is a women's sport product, therefore we're gonna

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah,

Matt Rogan:

women. This is a men's, men's rugby is men that we're gonna, therefore gonna market to, to men. I can be at all of those types of events just in different states with different people and behave entirely differently

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

yeah,

Matt Rogan:

fine.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

yeah. And your daughter still gonna make the decision?

Matt Rogan:

Yeah. Yeah. Who am I kidding? Yeah,

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's, I, this is, we're on the very beginning, aren't we? Of understanding those decisions and understanding therefore, the value to sponsors. We do know women's sports fans engage more. I. Deeply with, sponsors of women's sport. We know that there's a lot of data come outta that and Tammy Parla and have done some great jobs on that and, and you know, there's a lot of data there. What we probably haven't got is big enough data groups by individual sport, by individual event, yet to kind of say that's the, that's the premise. And now I see it activate and now I know it's true. And be able to kind of deliver down that granular detail to somebody who's gonna go, great, that means I'm gonna give you 5 million pounds. You know, so we're kind of, you know, that's the stage that when we sports that in that. People are buying into the premise and the story, as you would say, but they're not yet bought into the data because the data isn't quite there yet. And I think that's all of women's sports challenge. And you know, are lucky. We've got this great group of leaders in cricket, in netball and football, in rugby across all the women's team sports in this country. And we're all looking and tackling this problem about how do we the game, grow participation, grow the fan base, grow the economic case, grow the business case. this is an exciting moment, isn't it? Because how many growth sectors has the UK economy got at the moment?

Matt Rogan:

Yeah. Yeah. I think you, you know, it, it's

Richard Gillis, UP:

Pod podcasting about the only one I can think of.

Matt Rogan:

I,

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

and yeah.

Matt Rogan:

it, it, it is not for me to say, I think you'll end up with a, you know, a foundation that's part of a brick British corporate coming and saying, right, what we to deliver over 10 years against your investment horizon is an autonomously that's independently profitable, though not particularly markedly. So that can pay down this, this investment or, or enable us to realize an upside. But you can also deliver a social change program up and down the

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

of

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

that, that, and do so without us looking over your shoulders saying. You know, where are the numbers this quarter? But with us saying, okay, we can help in terms of governance and structure and distribution and all

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

And I, you know, it might, as you say, you could be patient too. You've already got patient capital in the, in the organization. So that might be a year, that might be three years, that might be five years. But when the right one comes along, sounds like you, you're in reasonable shape for it.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Is there a sensitivity though, to that model? Because actually. The last few years have been, no, we don't, we don't want women's rugby, football, cricket to be positioned as a sort of quasi charitable CSR spend. We want it to be a, you know, a commercial thing that stands in its own two feet. That, that bit of the conversation, it's what you are now what you are saying there is, I, I get it and I understand it and I think it's a really interesting route, but it's the one that I thought people wanted to get beyond. I thought that was the story, that, the old story and they wanted a new one, which is actually much more, you know, no, these are, this is real money. These are real people and it is going to make real money.

Matt Rogan:

My argument to that would be to say, well, I think few businesses at the venture capital stage, if we come back to, you know, where

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

is PDA few ventures on the venture capital stage can tell you what the product will look like in 10 years time, continue what the market

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Hmm.

Matt Rogan:

but they can demonstrate with the right investment, they'll stay ahead of that curve and wherever the market matures to they'll, they'll disproportionately benefit. And that's about as much as I think you can ask any of the women's sports at this point. I dunno what you think

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

how I'd be, take it.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I think that's right. I think

Richard Gillis, UP:

I.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

not, I think we have moved beyond CSR and there was, there's been some brilliant programs, hasn't there? You know, chance to Shine was absolutely amazing program. I mean, I wouldn't say no, you know, if somebody wants to come in and sponsor a kind of elite female coaching, how do we take sort of 25 year olds now and turn them into the next directors of rugby for, uh, the top franchises in the world and for world rugby and international teams? I'll happily put that through a CSR lens and, and help'em build a program to do that. No problem at all. do think there is a commercial return in women's sports. There's no doubt about it. But if you think about men's elite sport. A hundred years, 50 years, really 50 years serious investment in male sports and all the structures that are set up to support that. I would say we're what, seven years in to that really. so we are moving fast. If you look at the curve of what we've got to, we are moving really quickly, it's really only 2018 when the sort of NGBs all made a big step change into the elite performance structures and look what's happened. So, you know, you look seven years, hence, I don't think that's a particularly long term investment you are starting to see the ability to produce returns, possibly quicker than that. But I think that's, that's the sequencing now we have to do, if you've got the kind of underlying operational baseline investment that's there, now need to layer in some commercial rights return. You know, so commercial partners, media rights, broadcast rights at tendencies, all the traditional things, all of that is about proving the growth. So keeping kick-starting the growth, keeping that moving on. And then you've got a real opportunity to have a very different kind of investment conversation that says, okay, so what can we really make this? And that's kind of, you know, I look at the analogy of. You know, I dunno. Motorsport is a really good analogy of that and how they've kind of transformed themselves in the last 15 years that would, I mean, talk about pouring money in, you know, only one or two people were really making money out of that. then now everybody wants in because actually, you know, they've transformed the sport and they've transformed the audience. I'm not saying I'm going to be Bernie Appleton, don't worry. But you know, there's a business is a business. They're sort of parameters of it are similar.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I I'm interested in what you need from the club side. So if I'm saying what I can, I get that I'm on the women's rugby story, how you differentiate. I'm, there's two things. One is the sort of patience of the club owners. Is the bit that I've got a question about because that's, that it feels to me that's where the lot of the weight is going to sort of reside in this. And, the RFU has committed and made, its made its sort of commitment of 10 years. If I'm a club owner, I'm, you know, we're seeing this in football, we're seeing this in, you know, highest level, Jim Ratcliffe and Man United. It's fairly clear that this isn't on his, their agenda, particularly the, you know, the women's team. So you're gonna get a variation of, of sort of attitudes towards this question. And I can't quite get at yes, it's the right thing to do, but if I own this club and it's my money, why am I doing this? Is it just because the RFU is telling me to do this?

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

No, I, I think that is a really, that is a really great question. And you know, again, back to what do I do all day? I've got, we have got to focus on how this is additive clubs. So how does this bring more people through the gate, sell more shirts, generate more commercial income? How do I create more commercial REN revenue centrally that can be distributed back out to the clubs for the contribution to the league? you know, partly that's. Not going crazy and keeping my operating costs down at the same time as growing commercial revenue. So that's fine. Uh, that's a pretty simple thing to do. But I think, yeah, this is where you come back to growth. You've got to grow the fan base, you've got to grow the at tendencies, you've got to grow the commitment to the club, the, and the heritage brands and the, you know, fan base that they have. So I think about Exeter, they've done a really great job of proving that they can, you know, get a return twice a week instead of once a week. So that when the men's team's away, the women's team can play and it's worth opening. The club and Bristol have done the same. And you know, we are seeing other clubs develop that model. Gloucester have had some big standalone crowds. We've got some challenges to work out in that. We don't yet know what these new fans or fans of a new sport will do. Do they want 75 league matches a year? You know, these are all the still the questions that women's Sport is figuring out, isn't it? Because I think we can prove, we can do that Arsenal Approving, they can do that. Chelsea Approving, they can do that man. City proving they can do that. you gotta keep all the other metrics and levers under control on that journey. And you've also got to say, well, if we only make this work for three clubs or four clubs, then that that's actually not working, is it? It's got to work for 10 clubs, 14 clubs, 16 clubs. It's gotta work all the way through that top end of the game.

Matt Rogan:

always strikes me, it's one of the things that ECB by their own admission learned by Happy Accident when Covid meant the women's in the men's game, which meant they for the hundred and the first year, which meant they create some, a bit of energy and pace in the, the women's game, which meant they started to realize the value of the women's franchise cricket and, and then moved out to the, to the world now where they're expanding out beyond that. I did hear one story about, I'm not sure if it's true or not, where the, the, the Men's Healing Trail finders team were mortified to see people leaving after the women's game this year. So like there, there's a crux of something that works really nicely there where. Blended double hair as an individual franchise, as you say, you know, these stadia exist and so the marginal profit out of running women's games and through, through them anyway, that you'll hit a point where once you're ahead of that curve, it all sort in really good shape

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah,

Matt Rogan:

they'll kind of go, we see where this is both growing and already additive to our bottom

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

yeah,

Matt Rogan:

and at that point you're really off. I would

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

yeah. No, I think that's right and I think, you know, I'm kind of. Obviously I'm a salesperson, so I'm naturally optimistic and positive. Otherwise, you're probably not a salesperson. Uh, but I'm also deeply cynical and skeptical too. And you know, I think it's right. We've got to ask ourselves these tough questions. Why, why would you do this? Why would you give us the money? Why, why should I invest now? Why should I be a partner now? and I've gotta be able to answer those questions. And you've also got to have those measures in place that say, at what point does this become, move out of marginal and the right thing to do and move into the sensible thing to do the commercial thing to do? And that's the journey we're on, isn't it? And that's, that's why it's exciting, really, because I feel like I can see that. And then you've just gotta manage all the other external factors, which are sort of coming to bear as well, you know? So our macro environment is not a particularly happy place at the moment, is it? So we've got to kind of ride, no doubt, ride some of those headwinds as well.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Well listen. Good luck with it. Thank you very much for your time. I really, really enjoyed the conversation. And, uh, you the World Cup. What's your, what are your sort of hopes for the World Cup and the rest of it? Is there, is there a lot of conversation within the league focused on that?

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I mean we're, listen, we've got all 16 of our nationalities are in the World Cup, so, we'll have a hundred players, PWR players playing in the World Cup. So this will be an exciting time for us'cause we won't be silent when quiet during the World Cup. We'll actually be very noisy because almost every team that runs out will have PWR players in it. So it'll be an exciting moment. you know, I, one team want one team to win. Uh, I'm Red Rose number 41, so I only want one team to win. but I actually want, you know, half a million people to turn up and watch matches. And who knows what the TV audience could be. I think it, I mean it, that is gonna be record breaking.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah, it'd be fascinating to see it, won't it?

Matt Rogan:

that is the single biggest difference in terms of the rugby setup versus if you compare, maybe the challenge with filtering a lioness win into. tendencies at League games in English soccer when they're not an extension of the same infrastructure.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

The collegiate nature I think we're seeing with, with PWR where, you know, you sort of tapped into what's going on in the road. We old cup, what we haven't clocked in this country is how you catch people who are captivated after London 2012 or or after Lioness win even to some extent in, in the Cricket Women's World Cup win and turn them into regular attenders the

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Yeah.

Matt Rogan:

I guess that's the, that's the challenge. So do stay loud during the

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

We definitely will, we definitely will. And uh, yeah, we've gotta turn many as those incredible women into superstars as possible. Uh, you know, I want to see them fronting brands and making tiktoks and, you know, kind of getting themselves, you know, to be famous in this country. I think it's definitely possible we're gonna see some real superstars.

Matt Rogan:

To, to your point on being WOS number 41. So what, when you won the Rugby World Cup, what did it look like for the two or three weeks afterwards? You hired your light under a bushel very well, but we should mention that.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

I'm laughing. I went to work the next day. We had a brilliant brilliant World Cup final in Edinburgh. Fantastic dinner, thankfully no social media. And I got on a plane and went to a book sellers conference in Jersey on Monday.

Matt Rogan:

Very good.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Times have changed. Genevieve, thanks a lot for your time. Really enjoyed it and thanks Matt as ever.

Matt Rogan:

care.

Genevieve Shore, PWR:

Take care.

Matt Rogan:

you soon.