Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP481 Fussball Crazy: Bayern dominance, 50+1 and the free market
Norway's greatest export Jan Age Fjortoft and his son and former player Marcus Fjortoft, together host The Fussball Channel on YouTube, covering German football in English.
This gives them the ideal platform to compare the myths and realities surrounding Bundesliga and the Premier League, globalism and competitive balance, fan culture and the realities of the famous 50+1 Rule in German football.
This episode of Unofficial Partner is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport. Sid Lee Sport is a new breed of agency that combines world class creativity with deep sponsorship expertise, flawless operational delivery.
And a culture of marketing effectiveness. We've got to know the team over the last few months. They're an impressive bunch who believe that sports marketing can and should be done better. They've got a creative philosophy of producing famous campaigns and activations that build buzz and conversation in a category that too often looks and sounds the same.
And they're pioneering a new standard of effectiveness in sports marketing using econometrics and attribution models to go beyond traditional media, ROI. So if you're looking for an agency to take your brand to the top, get in touch with the team at Sid Lee Sport where brands become champions.
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Hi everyone. Uh, we are champions. Uh, it feels good. It feels amazing. Uh, I just wanna say thank you to all the fans, uh, for your support home and away this season. Uh, it wouldn't be possible without you. And, uh, I'm extremely proud to win my first title, uh, here at Bay Minute. So, uh, let's enjoy it. Let's enjoy the next, uh, couple weeks together, and then for sure, we look forward to the next one. Okay, so that was the unmistakable voice of Harry Kane celebrating his first major trophy as a player. Obviously a former Spurs player. No bitterness to this end, but for Bio Munich, it is business as usual. This was their 12th title in 13 seasons and the 30. Third Bun Liga title in awe. I think that's right. I had to look that up. So the dominance of Bio Munich is just one of the questions that we are talking about today with, Yan Arga Fov and Marcus Fov. Y Arga Ft was one of Norway's most successful footballing exports playing around Europe, notably for Intrack Frankfurt in Germany. Today he's a very popular, and Busy football pundit for Via Play and ESPN, covering Bundas League and British football in the Premier League. Marcus himself a former professional player, Is a consultant working in and around sport together. They have created the Bel Channel. Is it Fus Football? Have I said that right? Anyway, it is very good and you should look it up. It's on YouTube and it's German football in English. So idiots like me, can have their cliche ridden views of German football and how it works. The 50 plus one rule, et cetera, et cetera, and what that means for the issue of regulation and the balance between regulation and market forces in sport more generally. All of that to come. We've also got some questions from the August. WhatsApp group, the Unofficial Partner WhatsApp group. So you'll hear Kira Maguire, Omar Chowdry and Maggie Murphy talking of Maggie Murphy. Oh, it is Matt and Maggie from Expected Goals, your favorite podcast on the business of women's football. And we are here to tell you about an exciting event we're hosting in London on the evening of June 19th. We are bringing together a select group of industry leaders, commercial partners, investors. Club officials and entrepreneurs for a unique three part event. It will start with a candid conversation with top investors and commercial leads about where the smart money is going in women's football, what makes an asset truly investible, and the advice they'd give to founders, clubs, and creators looking to grow. And then we'll be hearing real world lightning pitches from clubs. Entrepreneurs and business owners who are looking for investment, sponsorship or guidance afterwards, we're gonna be hosting a relaxed mixer with those speakers, experts, and guests, and you can connect, share advice, and leads and spark future collaborations, and we would love to see you that. So make sure you get a ticket before it sells out. Google Eventbrite expected goals live before they all go. This episode of Unofficial Partner is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport. Sid Lee Sport is a new breed of agency that combines world class creativity with deep sponsorship expertise, flawless operational delivery. And a culture of marketing effectiveness. We've got to know the team over the last few months. They're an impressive bunch who believe that sports marketing can and should be done better. They've got a creative philosophy of producing famous campaigns and activations that build buzz and conversation in a category that too often looks and sounds the same. And they're pioneering a new standard of effectiveness in sports marketing using econometrics and attribution models to go beyond traditional media, ROI. So if you're looking for an agency to take your brand to the top, get in touch with the team at Sid Lee Sport where brands become champions.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:yeah, no, the WhatsApp group's good. It's good, isn't it? I mean, it's
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:Fantastic. Fantastic. How many names are there now?
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:There's about 220 or two 30, but Skews depending on what the subject matter is. So
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:Yeah.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:there's a quiet 30 or 40 people who occasionally, when me and Sean are sort of drunk in the pub, we go through and say, well, should we just chuck them off? You know, they're not earning their keep. But yeah, no, it's, it is good. it's just a useful thing. first of. Well done. On the new thing we're gonna talk about the football channel. Marcus, this is something that your dad has talked you into, is, it is just to make his, make the brand relevant to Gen Z millennials. He's in search of a new lucrative audience. That's what I read into this anyway. What.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:well, it's a little combination of everything, I think in the sense that you know, this, but the football media landscape is shifting. We have this unique opportunity now to, build a channel of something that we're interested in and then hoping that people come along for the ride and find it equally as interesting as we do. So, I think what we've got now is a very engaged, loyal. Perhaps niche audience, but nonetheless our audience, because it's German football coverage in English, and
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:dad's got his natural link with Ein truck, Frankfurt. And then eTrack Frankfurt was my first club when it was a 6-year-old as well. So depending on how far you want to go back, I guess there is that organic link as
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:are you a nine track? Are you a Frankfurt fan?
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah. I have to be as, as default, of course. But uh, yeah, have that. And then I have Arsenal in, in England.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:So he's quite a strict father in that way. Quite a he. He would, he just sort of, that was just, you know, authoritarian someone to.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:making it easy for me because he played for, what did you play for that? 11, 12 clubs. So like am I in a situation where I have to, you know, I do commentary for Swindon as well, so they're my league two team, I guess.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:I think Rachel is a good start of it because. It's something of both. I think first of all, people in my age, we need to engage with young people. That is very important because the media is shifting and I, and I love to work with my kids. I got three kids. They are my best advices in the terms of the new way of thinking. And after ing, Holland went to Germany, I went from Germany to England. I kind of missed,'cause we did the Premier League rights and we player more or less there every. I feel I am there all the time. So that was also a big passion of my life. German football has always been, and when I play in Austra, they call it the other Bundesliga, then it's very connected to, to to the Bundesliga. So that's where my love for the game. And one of my first memories of football, I'm born in 67, was West Germany against Holland in the 74 final, it was Bio Munich against Leeds United in 75. So it's something, it's always been my passion, English and German football. And, but I could never do this because I have no idea as people in my age don't have, I'm learning all the time and I got a good teacher in my son.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah. Yeah, it's, it is interesting. I'm of a similar age, so those are two landmarks. And I remember, and this is you can't help with name drop, but I remember I played golf with Johnny Giles, you know, famous leads
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:Oh.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:I know you know, but he's still angry about 75.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:Yeah, never an offside. Never offside.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:The crooked ref and the, you know, all of that story. And it is quite interesting'cause you get into comparisons. Leads, fans feel it very deeply that their club is not given as much credit as Manchester United and Liverpool for their sort of history and the way in which they dominated and all of that. And that if they've won against Bio Munich in 75, that would've been the. But anyway, that's ancient history, but I was looking watching your channel, and obviously we've been communicating on, the WhatsApp group and got a load of questions, but I also put some, I've got some questions from the group, so from the Unofficial Partner WhatsApp group, which I thought would be sort of interesting just to, throw in. But I want to kick off really by, I find. The reason that I am keen to have this conversation is that I carry a load of cliches and in my head about German football, about the way in which German football run, we'll talk about 50 plus one. You go into certain sort of areas, but what, is it? Just, let's set the channel up to begin with. Is it just about everything? Are you covering every part of the game is it just, are you looking at it from an English lens? It in English.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:I think the way we wanted to go by it is first of all. The coverage of German football, English is rare in the sense that,
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:in comparison to the Premier League and the coverage that comes with that and the audience that we can gather from that. So we do have our around recaps that we very much like to do and keep the audience informed and ourselves informed as well. It's that plus the. You know, the inevitable insight that dad has through his access. He works with ESPN as such and gets, sees German football from a rather different lens than others might in comparison of others that cover the Bundesliga. And then something that we are increasingly looking to cultivate as well is the guests that that we have on. Obviously last week we had Axel Helman, the Intrack, CEO as
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:where we can move in a direction in which. think in comparison to, English football as well, it's very interesting the openness of a CEO, a sporting director to football and how it's done. And you even see that on the talk shows in Germany as well, where we can actually access football in a quite different lens than you would in other countries as well. And so it's equally as much getting others engaged into German football. The. And probably relevant to what you do as well, but generally how clubs are run and,
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:the comms around that. And the sport of culture, et cetera, et cetera.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah, the, normal the Premier League is often held out as this sort of free market. Approach, and then you've got German football and the BUN league, it feels more regulated. That's the normal sort of framing of the comparison and then people build on top of that and the implications of that a, as an investment for example. Alright. Here's a question. This is Kieran McGuire I'm gonna use his question first of all. So Kieran McGuire is obviously a football finance guru, and I asked him for a question for you two. Here's his one.
The 50 plus one rule is good from. A stakeholder perspective if you are a fan, in the sense that it does give an extra layer of protection by protecting clubs from rogue owners who have less incentive to come into the Bundas League because they know that potentially they can be outvoted when it comes to key decisions about the running of the club. Whilst it discourages rogue owners, it also discourages potential good owners who perhaps want to change a club and make it a challenger, ambitious, or aspirational club, as we've seen here in the Premier League. With the likes of Nottingham Forest, Newcastle, United, Aston Villa, where owners have come in large checkbooks and also historically Manchester City and Chelsea. And that's increased the competitiveness of the Premier League, which has made it a more successful product globally and has attracted bigger audiences and all the clubs have benefited as a consequence of this. Do you think there could be some form of compromise in the Bundes leaguer where we know that Bio Munich are going to win the league each year? There's very high probability of that because they have an inbuilt financial advantage due to their historic success. but that does mean that being able to mount a realistic challenge to, buy-in. Is difficult, and therefore the outcome of the league is known quite early in the season on a regular basis, similar to what we have in Scotland. And that means it's that much more difficult for the, German football authorities to sell bundle legal rights for big fees because The outcome is known and uncertainties a really important issue as far as football is concerned. It was very noticeable that no German clubs were applicants for the original Super League. Do you think this is a consequence of the 50 plus one rule and the executives I. At clubs realized that there'll be so much opposition from fans that they would be effectively voted down, even if they did see the merits of Super League, of which of course there are very, very few unless you are within the Super League itself. and is this a, an indication as to how the 50 plus one rule can act in a positive manner?
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:Well, I can answer that, and I think that. To answer that properly, you have to understand the background of German football because German football is much more of a free ride than we think because when you do the Premier League, who do you speak to at the club? Well, you're lucky to speak to one man and that's the manager. The manager will do every pro conference. He will talk about ownership, he will talk about Super League. He would talk about everything in a German football club in each club. Well, there would be 10 people you can speak to. Bayan is 20, but the other teams are 10. Every media outlet in Germany will have their mo. We'll have them mole in the dressing room so they know about all these kind of things. There are so many different platform as well for the representative of the fans. And I'm not only then talking about the 50 plus one rule and the general assembly that is very open and they sit down and Oli heard is loses his mind because of democracy and he does it in a charming way and he got that under control. So to ki. A question, is that Yes, I do think that be, that is the main thing. There are platforms of every voice. I did Chelsea on Sunday, I did a vox pop. I did with the fans before I talked to Chelsea's Tru Trust Fund. I talked to the people there and of course they have trouble to find a way. They find a way to access. How do they express themselves? You never seen. Well Arsenal, tri Rio Choreography. I mean, that was not the best I've seen, but when you can see any Bundes League game, there is some kind of message in the stands. You can also see after games that the fans have to go over to the fans and talk to them after a loss. I've done that. I remember I did that in UN once. I won't say everything that I got in my face, but there were a lot of, of different things that get onto me. So I think that the German football is, I will say quote livelier. There is more people having an opinion of the game. In England, and I do love both leagues. I do love both cultures, but there is much more sports politics into that is much more into that trans transformation from being a bubble as all football clubs are somehow. But then everything, well, Callen's, Rual, I'll use him as an example. Colin Ruen is not a leader officially a buy-in anymore. He has some. Thing. He's sitting in some board there because they have boards, they have different thing. He got his own press officer. He got his own press officer. This is like an honorable member of the advisory board. So, so I think to kirin's clear question, I think that. Automatically a German leader that mean a Max Airable or a s, they will know straight away based on their stomach that a super league may be a, maybe they could think, well, that could be a good idea. Maybe that's a good idea to challenge UF and fifa. But we want get an accept for that. Just look at the big commercial deal. The Bundes League I wanted to do, and there were what was his tennis balls? I'm a bit confused, but in Norwich, they use fish. Cakes, so I think it was tennis balls all over the pitch and they stopped that deal. So, so, so yes, I think that the 50 plus one rule, but the general culture of German football stopped them by the stomach. That's just a stomach feeling.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah, well, I, I would. about to make that point as well. But that, but in terms of the DFL deal that collapsed in which you were able to retain a minority from the overall media and commercial rights, that was a deal that was going to go ahead with CVC capital partners and. A lot of different factors, but one of them being the sheer fan pressure with the endless amount of protests, amount of games that not got abandoned, got but delayed and stopped Eventually they had to, you know, take their hands up and say, we're done here. And I just think that does show to the, yeah, the inevitable pressure. These governing people find themselves in and that I think they have a bit more of a they have a bit more of a, onus on, on, on that fan opinion. And yeah, that's a proof in the pudding as far as I'm concerned, and that's why I don't think we saw anything of the Super League as well.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:It is really interesting that, because there's a sense, you, your point there about the manager Yan being the focal point. And you're right in that they are, you know, that's sometimes it's all we talk about, the manager who's getting sacked, who's the next, Liverpool manager, who's the next Spurs manager. As a Spurs fan, this is a sort of 18 month conversation you have over, you know, 30 years and with a Pino, you know, gap in the middle. And now we just, you know, mourn Pino. So there's a whole thing where the manager is soaking up a lot of that space and they don't have the authority to talk as owners. And I wonder if over here, I mean, I'm talking from a. Premier League's perspective, one of the features is there's a sense of helplessness amongst the fans, and it's not dissimilar to the sense that you get about Amazon or Silicon Valley or, you know, the, there's just private equity and the billionaire class, which owns. Everything. They don't care. You weaken. There's an interesting book recently Miguel Delaney, who was on here, just won a, an award the other week.. And one of the things that came through there was that actually when governments run football when Abu Dhabi, Saudi, Qatar, whoever it is, they are in charge, they own football clubs. And if billionaires and Abramovich owns football clubs, then actually what happens is it's breaking the system because they don't need to follow rules will get to law and all these questions, sometimes I hear people talk about 50 plus one as a protection of you can't buy. and therefore bundas leaguer is it lagging behind because the money isn't flowing in at the ownership level? Is that something that you have any of sympathy for that idea that the Premier League is open to money and therefore that has accelerated its growth and the quality of the league.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:I think sometimes we have to think that football as a business is a quite young business. Sometimes we forget that. So we kind of have to make rules as we goes by because we didn't think of that financial fair play. That was a way, well, if we are a bit tabloid, there was a bit a way to for the established clubs to not get the money. Into football and then sometimes financial fair play is the way to not take foot money outta football. So we kind of change those kind of things all the time. What I can say about Germany is now that it's under threat in the way that, in, in the moment that German clubs don't have the muscles anymore to battle against the big clubs because. Even Bain, who's been run fantastically since Uli, hers took over 77, 78. He was a young kid building up that as a startup af after they were nearly bankrupt after they winning three times in a row in the seventies. But still, they have this call. And we talked about that Marcus, on, on our one hour show. This a fast scale con, that means a account that they always had money for the bad days. You know, that was always there. And now using that money, they can't get a bus driver of Arsenal Football Club for that money. So they can, they will always lose out against oil and gas nations who invest in football that will kind of. Threat that system of German football. But it's hard to say how I don't think that we, I don't think we are ready for the rules and I go back to my initial view then of us being a very. Young industry. So I mean, when I came to England, I came to England in Premier League season two. Yes, I'm old, but I'm not that old. So just some few minutes ago that was commercialized. The Premier League and German football, they are also in a kind of identity crisis. What we are gonna do, so is the bun. They go in a big commercial partner, what are we gonna do? Okay. The way we try to do the commercial TV rights abroad, we are struggling A CRL. They all love Manchester United anyway, and then we go to America. Wow. The English teams are already there, so, uh, I think they, Marcus we discussed that about this identity crisis. They, they do have, I. They all love Manchester United anyway, and then we go to America. Wow. The English teams are already there, so, I think they, Marcus we discussed that about this identity crisis. They do have, I.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:What I find interesting is every league, every club for that matter, want to make money. They want to be sustainable at that, and then the leagues themselves exist as institutions as to. How are we going to, if we're using Premier League as the main kind of example in terms of a league that has gotten incredible commercial success. You have La Liga who are trying to play games abroad in Saudi Arabia, but Germany would never do that. Then you have Syria who are trying with their digital strategies and whatnot, but still trying to struggle to find their ways and then you have Germany with it, is important that the 50 buzz one rule, the fan culture will stay. As a valuable context in, in, in this regard, need to still find a way to say, okay, how are we going to make money off of this? That is where the DFL thought, okay, if we brought up private equity and we just gave a little bit of, you know, a little bit of cuts of the commercial and media rights, you can see where the money was going. 40% of it was going to digitalization because bungo want to be, that's part of their competitive advantage, and that's why they're going into Asia and what have you, 45%. It was on infrastructure. Then the 15% was on club discretion, all means by which they could maybe lift the tide for all clubs involved. Still the fans said because they were purists at heart as well. But I think it's a valuable discussion to have is what degree, yes. It's fantastic to have the fans say there, but would that have been a deal that would've benefited? The Boo League got at a relatively favorable. Terms as such, and that is one, one way of which they could have cut themselves up. And that I think, brings an interest to Sebastian because dad, you and I love Bundesliga. We love the fan involvement and everything. And then you have decision makers like a Vasque and Ernest or whatnot who have run this game. Es woman who've been part of making Bio Munich what they are now. Who do, after all, have their business expertise as well. And I think it's a tricky conversation to have, but I think it's one worth having nonetheless, in terms of how Bun Liga cut that gap.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah, it's really interesting that because you've got the football regulator obviously coming in here, and it might be David Kogan, we hear who is a, you know, is a premier league and he knows about TV rights back to front, you know, so, but one of the questions is have a regulator and one of the, you know, the people who don't like the idea of the regulator mean it, it's sort of, and how much the regulator comes in is fans are. Wanting it, but it's quite an ill-defined role. So what are they regulating? And you then get to the question about, is the Premier League a problem that needs to be solved? a lot of leagues around the world will say, what? Hang on. That's one of the great British exports. You know, it's soft power and financial power. It doesn't, you don't need to constrain the Premier League. There are some distribution questions about where the money goes. I sometimes think people must look at the government and the fans wrangling about restraining the Premier League, whereas Bundes League is saying, hang on, we need to catch up with the Premier League.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:If I can start on that one as well as your dad, Marcus, but I will say that. I will say that the independent regulator, and I think that came in a time that was a reaction to the Super League. That's what it all started. There was like a wave in England, former footballers. I was a part of that as well, but I don't think we were a hundred percent sure what it was, and I'm not a hundred percent sure that we know now. I think that the fans in England or in the in, in the UK are so desperate to just get away in, I mean, you can call it anyway just give us a platform. Reference to the other answer I gave because in, in Germany, they will have a lot of places where they can express that feeling. They can they have a culture of doing that, and you don't have that in England. So I think that the fans in England are desperate to, to just get that platform to, to have their, say. I had the one guy who came up to me yesterday when I did that, he said, well, Chelsea, they will take them five minutes. To take my season ticket away that I pay Exilon for and sell it to some commercial partner, and they will pay the 10 times the price. And which we've seen a lot of different clubs when they extend the capacity in the stadium, that's what they're going for. And me as a Norwegian, there's so many Norwegians over, so I, maybe shouldn't not say too much, but I think that is the main thing. So for the fans, it's just to get something. And now it's called independent regulator, but you have to give it a content.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:I, I think it comes down to, it's so tough is what does football want to be? And if in stereotypical terms. Bunga represent the purists view in
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah.
squadcaster-dgg9_1_05-05-2025_160911:The lower ticket prices in terms of the fan involvement in terms of overall club governance. It does represent that. And that's Byron's or Byron? Sorry, Byron? Yes. Bunes. Liga. Huge selling points, then there is that constant strife between what that represents and versus what the reality is. The business sense. Of the matter is, are there ways to monetize that? Yes, to some degree you can bring fans along for the journey. You can improve the fan engagement journey. You can bring more international fans along, but it's still, the problem still remains in terms of how do you then close that gap? Because that obviously has implications in terms of does the bonus league up become a selling league? Are they the purveyors of the finest European talents? Well, that even that is starting to be difficult to compete against and so on. I think so it comes down to. You know, it's a job that, it's a thankless task, but what are we, what's, what is the identity? Bun German football have a unique identity, nonetheless the financial gap is widening and it's a pretty, it's a pretty tough dynamic to, to manage.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:I've got a question here from Omar Chowdry from 21st Group there's a question here about, well actually it's about Bio Munich, so I'll let, I'll just play it and then we can, we can talk about it.
Hello, Unofficial Partner. I'm Omar Chadri from 21st Group. My question is about by Munich. The club's probably underachieved over the last 10 years or so. They've only reached one Champions League final and and generally have not beaten many great teams in European football over that time. And yes, of course they've dominated domestic league bar the aberration with. By Labor coon, but clearly there's more the club could be doing given the size of their revenues and their reputation across Europe. So my question is really what their strategy should be? Should it, should they be going down a Galactica approach of spending more, a bit like what real Madrid and PSG have done in the past? Should they go down more of a talent development route like Barcelona or what PSG are doing today? Or dare I say, should they think about perhaps making the bundles league more balanced, more attractive as a competition through a flatter revenue distribution, and hope that a rising tide lifts all boats, both in terms of domestic rights and international rights. So, yeah. What, what should Bio Munich really be doing over the next five to 10 years to really make themselves a, a force in European football again?
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Okay. Right. That was Omar Choudry. We should all fail like Bay and Munich. I'd love Spurs to fail as often as Bay and Munich do, but let's just, what do you think?
Well, I think that you and I discussed by a lot this season because. On one hand you have a Bio Munich that is the historic bio Munich in terms of the European cups, one, the countless Bundesliga titles one, and that is what it represents as institution. That's how a lot of the relationships from your generation, excuse me, JS, but your generation to my generation is by Munich as sort of, it's always there just below. It's always there just below the surface, Jan, isn't it? It's always there, but that's what we associated with. And now. Yes, an adjustment to the changing football landscape, the different changing financial landscape as well. Buyer. Now coming to a stage was pretty interesting. One in which being you bring in Vincent Company, who with relative little experience, certainly not the experience that you would associate, uh, by Munich. Bringing in represents the young, younger coach as well. You have someone like Max Abel, head of sports. You have Crystal Fre, crystal Fre of which is known for recruiting younger talent. You bring in someone like Tom Bishop from the Hoffenheim, a younger German talent, who is the big player they want now. Yes, every big club wants it, but nonetheless, a young German talent in, in Florian beards. So within that, you have a pretty interesting dilemma. Call it what you may of by and wanting. Younger talents. They also want to reduce their the wage bill as well. And you often do that by maybe signing younger prospective players with greater potential, but lower earnings nonetheless, while also having to live up to expectations of what Bio Munich are gonna be. They wonder Bunga, this season that's, that's the minimum, but the expectation will always remain the Champions League win the cup, what have you. Being able to do that. With those you are competing against with relatively bigger capital is also a another tough task for, for Max Bel as a company that, please, you can chime onto this, but in terms of the expectation as to what buyer and were this season under this transition into next season, will still be completely different despite younger players. A lower wage bill, a young manager.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:But it's quite interesting when we always talk about, you know, when English fans always talk about. The purity as Marcus used to word purity is like, is always Germany. 50 plus one. How nice is that the fan engagement and the smoke in the stadium and everything? Well, here's the fact as well. I. Germany and Bain got fan. They pay a lot for their players. The top branch of the players at Bain, like, so Max Abel was told you have to save money. Okay? So this is what he did. He extended the con for Davis. He got a 20 million euro. I have to say I've learned from people in German, I have to say apparently, because we don't know a hundred percent. So 20 million euro apparently. Just down as the signing on fee. Fair enough. And then over 20, 25 million Euro a year. Kimmage, the captain extended his contract, and so on. There's so many. Montreal, I'm not talking about the biggest stars of them all is still there. So, so that is German football as well. So they're spending a lot of money and like Mark is saying that Ru always says the main thing for us, the daily bread is to win. But Bain is much more than that. And if you see it over the years, which player have they signed from abroad that is like, wow. Players. We can say Robin, but he was injured at the time. He had a lot of injury problems and they got a hold of him. You can say. Riri, yes, but it wasn't like, like a superstars that would go to England. But then they have made a market of getting them from doAnd, reducing their value on the pitch reman back in the days by a leus. So they are after the biggest talents in Germany. That's their natural market. But. This season you have seen Bain losing to ot. They were hammered by Barcelona. They've been struggling in in, in the Champions League. And if I see one or two season forwards in terms of of the question we had there, I think this will be a threat to the 50 plus one. Because if Bain says there is no, we can compete internationally with this rule. That is a start of a quite interesting discussion because buy-in will always be up for the Champions League, but it's only a year ago by endorsement was in the Champions league. We, we shouldn't forget that but this discussion will come because there is no chance that there will be more. Just falling money down from the trees in, in, in Germany, they have to find a new way of thinking because there is always seem like in England there is always investor investors coming in. They're queuing up to buy the clubs and yes, for people to understand as well, what does this 50 plus one rule mean? Meaning that the members will have the last words, but like by they will have Allianz as a shareholder, they will have Aidas as a shareholder. Into that bracket of 49. So I can see 1, 2, 3, 4 years down the line that they will find a way to get people to invest more in German football. If not, they will always lose against the Manchester city of this world, of the Liverpool of this world and the arsenal of this world and the Chelsea of this world.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:What do you think about the part of Omar's question there was about the you know, a different approach, a non star approach almost. And we, he mentioned Barcelona PSG obviously'cause they are very elite European teams. In England, as you know very well, the conversation would go to Brentford and Brighton in terms of people who are using data cleverly getting, you know, may seemingly beating the market in terms of getting talent in. Is that a viable route for a club with a sort of status of buy and Munich, do you think?
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:Yeah, Marcus said, I signed Christoph Fre. He came from Red Bull Salzberg. I mean, that is a signal, that's what I want to do. Interesting enough, maybe the, maybe I'm not saying the. The best player by one of the candidates for the best players is EP, who came from Crystal Palace. They took him over and Marcus. You have his numbers and you can add to that, but he's done very well for them. But if you go through the buying team as well, yes, there is no stars, but Manuel Noyer has been the best goalkeepers. Joshua Kimmage, one of the best captain for Germany, Davis, a Canadian superstar, one of the best left backs in the world. Thomas Muer, Goret skies playing there. Muah. Hurricane, they took him over. That is a signal, a statement signing for them. Imagine that. Who thought that they will spend like hundred ish million of Euro to, to get hurricane there, Marcus.
I, I also think it's worth noting and I, and for those who wouldn't be too familiar with the BUN league as well, but it, you look at some of the clubs and they are run pretty well and they're pretty interesting cases. Take, take our ein truck Frankfort for instance, in terms of every club wants to make money off of transfer fees. They want to buy low, find the best talent and sell high, and that's the kind of the magic formula you mentioned Brentford Brighton. A lot easier said than done. Ahr Frankfurt have done this to such great effect. It's, it's incredible when you look at what they've signed. Mar Marus is the latest on a free and got sold 75 plus five I, I believe, with the b the big signing this summer. The list goes on for AHR to Frankfurt by Leus and had one of the best season ever. They had. They have a carro and a great CEO, Siemen, Rolfer as a, as a, as a head of sport or sporting director. One of the more historic seasons, one of the best seasons, uh, ever. You can look to Dartmouth who had there, there are a lot to be said. Went to the Champions League final last season. Nonetheless, Fryberger competing for, uh, Bundes League of Football. Now with a relatively modest budget with a manager who's coming from the first time after Stre, who's been there for decades, who's played under him. So these are models that actually. Already are proving rather successful, uh, and, and being able to compete in Europe and Intrack Frankford. Back to my initial point as well, in terms of what a club can represent in terms of. Lifting the overall area as to what, and that you, with your work with Antra Frankfort, you can speak on this even more, but in terms of what a club we're gonna represent. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that plus governance structures overall, an Frankfort can still bring in investors and whatnot, honor the, huge traditions within German football, but also being able to have a very impressive stadium, being able to have, uh, great partnership ties with the city and the financial landscape that lives et. There's still a lot of good examples of what's being done in German football as well, which I think is worth, uh, noting.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:And it's also one of the, from the, an outside view would be that isn't much wrong with the Bundesliga other than buy and win it every year. there's a lot going. Right.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:But if you, if you have a look at uh, I, I won't wanna be devil's advocate, but last time I checked Manchester City wanted four years in a row. In England, if you see the, if you see the table from the 1930s, we didn't live, we live a di. We didn't even Marcus, we didn't live at that time. But, uh, it's more or less the same time. It's the. It's the same type of teams in the top. And, And you can see also how predictable the league is when the same teams that go up, go down again, can happen again and all those kind of things. But yes, that is not good for the product of bio for the Bundu Leaguer. But that's not buyer's fault. The other teams need to be better. And Marcus said it there. I will. I speak highly of Antra Frankfurt. I always define them as the best of the rest. I will always say that Antra Frankfurt is one of the best run club. In the world. And the reason I say that is that I played at Intra Frankfurt where when we got the wages apparently that we have to run to the bank to be sure that they were in the account. And this being the financed metropol of intra of Frankfurt, sorry, Frankfurt. And now they are kind of a mirror of a very well run club in the middle of Deutsche Bank and Commerce Bank and what they call all the banks that are around them. And I think that is also a winning point of, or a plus point for German football is that they are very well run as Marcus went through the different clubs there that need to be well run and compare that with English football as well. Where do we get all the information about the financial thing? Because there are one company here, there are one company there. Of course Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with Newcastle. Have we learned? Abu DHA has nothing to do. There's always different companies. So that's that. That is, a selling point also for the Germans point of view, but we should always think of is also a bad point for them because the most important table, unfortunately, is the one who says, who's playing in the Champions League final in Munich? Who is winning? The league and that, that's the main thing. And, but especially the European Cup the Champions League is the most prestigious one as I end this point with a big cliche. I.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Well, there is a, there's also the question of. Corporate, but also fan ego and that we see this at Manchester United. You know, this is always a case study that you can bring in Dan Ashworth, you can bring in people, with the and the data to, to try and change the culture of the club from a know, a galactico to to a more of a, data led, whatever you wanna call it. Type operation, but actually the fan ego, the corp, the, just the status of the company mean makes it very difficult for them to, to take that route, isn't it? Because they then as soon, you know what it's like, you say, right, okay, we're gonna buy that player for 10 million. And fans are up in arms. You know, they're saying, well, why are we not, why are we not spending this, transfer window? So there's
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:Yeah.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:pressure, which is a different pressure that, again, Brighton Franford, they don't face that type of pressure.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:I think what you see in Germany, if I put Germany, if you have a look at the second league Marcus and myself, we always have a segment in our episodes where we're talking about things that can only happen in the second league, in the Bundes League. Then you have hta, Berlin, hamburger, sports Wine, K. There are so many big teams that are down there that may be like, if you compare them with business they kind of get outta business because they can't adjust to a new time. And you made brentford and brightness. Good examples there. I was involved in a very interesting discussion this weekend where we talked about football and sometimes we kind of. Charming nineties and I was in England in the nineties. It was not only charming, there were things happening. There was not maybe the best atmosphere in the dress room. I'm not saying it was bullying, but it was also bullying, drinking, bad attitude. There was a lot of things, bad run club clubs that back then as well. But still England and when you go back in the eighties we talked to the old legends and of the seventies. So I think that one of the main thing, and you use. Manchester United as an example. It's a very good example if you have a CEO or a owner. And now I use that quote, sir Alex Ferguson. What's happening after him? Well, maybe then you just realize we didn't have a culture. We had Sir Alex. And if you had a boot room at Liverpool that lasted with a bill Shaley Bob Paisley with Joe Fagan, Kennedy Del, so. There is also down to persons. So how do you do that after they leave a club is OT Re and even in Germany they had that. He was there for a long time. Hamburgers, sports Flying was one of the major teams I. Back in the seventies, going into the eighties, winning the Champions League. They were a fantastic team. Herta Berlin is the club in the capital of Germany is one of the most exciting cities in the whole world, Berlin, and it can't manage to have a good management. So it's all down to people. And the people. You got what? Nottingham Forests When the European Cup, do you think that had a culture there after Brian Cloth left there? The culture left with Brian Cl. You see, that can happen also in businesses and that but I'm not one who look back and say, we should do that all again. I think it's fantastic that Brighton and Brentford find a way that they're using their skill to take the next step. And you see in Germany as well see, Oaks Book has established themself in the Bundesliga year after year. They're just there. And they're just a normal football club. Hoffenheim is something else because. Another devil's advocate thing that I will on behalf of English football in Germany, you also have Bay Lein. Well, that's a company team of Bayer. So if you have some medicine, that is Bio Lein. Hoffenheim. SAP. That is a rich man who found a way to take over Hoffenheim. You have Herba. Abe has nothing to do with Red Bull, by the way. Yeah, right. So that is, so there is, there are stories in Germany as well that not everything is as good as this. Maybe look from outside.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Absolutely right. I'm gonna push us onto our final question. It's from Maggie Murphy, former Chief Executive of Lewis Football Club over here, but also most importantly, the co-host of Expected Goals, the Unofficial Partner, women's Football business podcast. Right here we go.
Hello Jan. This is Maggie Murphy from the Expected Goals Podcast on the business side of women's football. Since Germany has such a rich tradition in women's football, strong heritage, why do you think the frown Bundesliga is not yet matching up to the Wsls commercial growth, um, and attendance figures in recent years? And do you think that the 50 plus one rule will deter additional investment coming into women's clubs in Germany? Thank you.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:Yeah, I will start with you, Marcus, as you were growing up with all the Norwegian football stars and the women's team. So I'll start with you.
That's, that's how we have the, I feel like I have the price of context to that. Uh, no. Norwegian football is obviously small enough, but I do take a keen interest in it because it is a growing league. I think it represents. A new way of going about football, how to earn money at football. Obviously, you cannot be as dependent on the media rights as you are within men's football. You know, I think the, the overall structure of 50 was one that will obviously be a factor, but these are. These are athletic institutions in a way that have to be run sustainably as such, if you look at, you know, the w itself in comparison, uh, the top teams tend to be the top teams in the Premier League as well. Um, women's football, extremely exciting at that, still finds itself. A bit of a startup phase, and I think sometimes think it's unfair to wins football saying, oh, well, are they earning money? Well, are men's teams earning money? Mm-hmm. So that, that's a pretty thankless task as well at that NWSL. There's a lot of private equity going in. You have a lot of celebrity investors. Americans generally tend to, I find, be better in terms of the commercial product as well. So there you have two pretty. Fierce competitors in terms of the money being put in versus the, the fa bunga as well, and that you can provide more context on, on the teams there. Ara Frankfurt by Munich doing very well as such, but I think there is more maybe weighed down by more financial, uh, not responsibility per se, but more considerations as they don't have that outside fund that's able to kind of spirit in the direction the game deserves.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:And I think that is a good point with all the money come from outside because in Germany, of course, the 50 plus one rule could maybe kind of. Take down the way that you risk. Yeah, let's do it. I can just listen to a Premier League owner say, yeah, why don't we have a women's football team? Yeah, let's go for it. But you will never have that conversation in Germany. They will go through a process. They will speak to the members. Because at the time for a startup, as Marcus is saying, you have to invest money. You have to invest money and I just did a football conference together with the Norwegian Football Association last week, and we have people there talking about the Lionesses and we talking about the branding. That was John England. And I think then is an example of a fantastic job that has been done. And I. I'm a beam keen follower. I remember I came to Norway after my football career and I started us as a pundit at the state television. And they asked me, well, are you gonna do women's football as well? And I said, well, if I'm a football expert, I have to do. Everything and at that time, and unfortunately at this time as well, only our women's team do qualify for championship. So yes, I wanted to do that, but just see how far we have come now. I mean, people must be so proud when you see what's going on in England at the moment. The Germans are slowly coming after interact Frankfurt, that I know very well. They are very invested. Into their thousand mancha. They try now to get us, they did the same thing as you've done in England. They tried to fill up the stadium. I think it came around 30,000 people. So they're following that. But we talking about the men's business being quite a young business, imagine how young the women's business is. So I think that I won't say this as a negative thing, but I think it's right that the 50 plus one rule will make it. The process will take longer. I won't take say it will make it slower, because that is a more negative word, but it, they will, they, they would, they have to understand that kind of thing, that's, they're gonna have good TV deals, that's gonna be interesting to follow them. You have to have good people. Kind of been interesting. What I thought is unbelievable interesting in England, and I'm not sure that they have managed to do that in Germany. It's that so much of the new fans. On new fans. They are not people who normally go to a foot, a proper proper football game where on a proper football game, I define that as cost. Unbelievable lot of money. There is a lot of diving. There is lot of this and that. And I, and the reason I use that in example, because I remember I. There was a journalist saying, this can't be football. He said about ES, because there are no bullying, there are no diving, there's no time wasting. So I think they're talking about the purity and we thought about that at the beginning. I love that way. They do that and maybe. Because in England, as you see now, it's so unbelievable expensive to go into to see a men's football game. Maybe that is also the chance that is also the door that is opening for women's football because some of the culture that's been created in England at the moment is it's a role model also for the Germans and I. I was with Frankfurt a couple of three weeks ago just before they did that big game, and you just listen to them. They're so interesting to to adapt that kind of things. So yes, so I think the short answer is it will take longer time, but I still think they're getting there.
Could I just make a note as well, is that without, uh, we're not doing a shameless plug here, but we did have. Um, one of the investors, an American investor into POIs Minster, the Bunga. Um, and you might think, okay, why? Well, why would you? And with the context of the fit press one rule and, and perhaps quote unquote, the lack of influence that you can have. I. I think it just goes back to the overall governance side in of, the game in which he said, well, I put all my, all my, I'll tell him what to do. I'll put my money into it. And the nice thing is, is that he can say no to that and that's how it should be. And so there are those, you know, there are those investors that will welcome that overall governance the game. I think a lot of why. Yes, there's a business sense of football, but if there are other more, you know, valid business prospects. So there is that sort of the emotional gratification of it being part of a community and what you get out of it. There are those abilities, for instance, in the women's game in Germany for investors to come in and it maybe not being able to come as in the most rapid sense of the world as as it would be in England or, or in the us. But there will be that chance to have that influence nonetheless. And I think that goes back to, well, how do we want to club. To be governed and yeah, that's, well, we'll see.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Yeah, absolutely. And what was it in terms of, you mentioned, you know, Norway's role in this. What was going on there that made football? Where does football play women's football? Is role, is it just, is it played in schools? Just gimme a picture of that because that's, you know, it's quite an interesting story behind that.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:I think that's because. Always a country that was very early on gender equality. I think that is a general thing that Norway, remember back in the eighties, we had a government of 50% women. Don't, so don't underestimate the way a society will make an influence of what you do for the women's game. So I remember when I. I, I grew up, there was no women's team. Then slowly we start getting that and when the Norwegians went for that, they should have the equal rights. I'm not saying that is a hundred percent now because it's not. Sometime we have to work for that all the time. In, in two days time, I'm doing another girl soccer school. I do that with a. With a company here in Norway that want to sponsor those kind of events to get more women to have the gender the same rights as the boys. So I'm not saying that, but there was a time that we, where we were putting a lot of that, I remember we used to play England. I was that was just a day out. We knew that we would win that game. That has changed. That's changed a lot. So I think that was a consequence of the general gender equality and how far we had come in Norway in terms of our society. And we just celebrated the 25 after our Olympic gold in Sydney and we won the World Championship in 95. So we are struggling to get back now because we have great individuals, but they're abroad like Carolina, Graham Hanson, ADA Gerberg Mannu. We have so many players Frida in, in, in Arsenal and so Guru Wright at Chelsea. So we have so many players out, but we are struggling now to to catch up with the other teams, which is also a good sign because that means that the women's football is progressing very rapidly.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Well, they were sort of, they were the lionesses of their tar. You know, it is a bit of a crass analogy, but the national team. Was very successful. I was just interested in whether or not that move to becoming a thriving domestic league.'cause that's the story at the moment here is the lioness. Is we getting there? We're gonna see it. This summer is gonna be a big major event and we will get excited and then the hard work is sustaining that through the club game. I just wondered if that was
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:We haven't met now to your answer, Richard, we haven't we are another one even close. We have, we can have games here with about 180 people in a league game here. So we haven't managed to do that Somehow, we haven't kind of broke that code, so to say. We don't know how to do that. And that is a big topic here in Norway, how to do it even when we have the great players.
Yeah. I think it's also important to add that until recent, relative to the amount of football fandom there is amongst. Women, girls in the us, they haven't figured out in a long while either. I went back to like the startup analogy, but it is still very much a, a case of figuring it out. Yes. A young business for, for the men's game in terms of making it a viable, uh, business as such. The same for, for women's football as well. So yeah, Norway's is lacking as such. Um, but it's not until recent. America got their act together in a way in terms of how you're able to make a viable league in which there aren't teams folding and there aren't players leaving in which you want to retain most of your domestic players, um, as well. But I. Not good enough from a Norwegian domestically standpoint yet.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Okay. Well, listen, so much for your time. Really enjoyed that. And um, just give us a, the steer in terms of where people can listen. I'm guessing YouTube, it's not gonna be that difficult answer to this question, but just, just set that up, you know, where I'm going. Give us a, Give us a link to, to the uh, to the show.
Well, you can find us on YouTube, on the fus channel. That's where we tend to do, uh, have most of our engagement in terms of the overall conversations with fans, uh, et cetera. There is the latest roundup. There are, uh, conversations, longer conversations with key influencers within the German football game. And then we also have a little fun along the road as well with little rankings and, and this and that and quick fires. And it's a. Um, you know, without, uh, with, if maintaining my objectivity, I think it's a rather nice way to familiarize yourself with German football and the overall business side and sporting side of the game.
jan-guest808_1_05-05-2025_170911:You can find us wherever, as they say, where you find your other PO podcasts. So, the football channel. Please subscribe and be a member and make interaction with us.
richard_1_05-05-2025_160911:Excellent. Right, and thank you to the Unofficial Partner WhatsApp group for some questions along the way. In the meantime, thanks a lot for your time. Love that.