UP488 The Business of Rugby: Lions Inc, R360, CVC calls on Allera, Women's World Cup

Guest: Paul Morgan, Rugby World Editor and Premiership Rugby Comms Director

Running List: The Business of Rugby Episode

1. British Lions Commercial Strategy

• Ticket pricing controversy: Struggling to sell out Dublin match at £163 per ticket
• Major commercial partnerships: Qatar Airways (title sponsor), Patron Saint whisky, Rhino, Oxford Landing, Charles Tyrwhitt, Howden, Canterbury, Fanatics
• Digital strategy: World Rugby/Lions collaboration on RugbyPass App for Australia tour
• Broadcasting: S4C secures Welsh highlights rights, Sky holds exclusive live rights

2. CVC hire Marc Allegra

• Marc Allera (former EE CEO) appointed chairman of newly created CVC SportsCo
• Background: Sega → Three → EE → Jagex chairman (also CVC-owned)
• 27% stake in Premiership Rugby (acquired 2019)
• Six Nations Rugby investment
• Had to bail out Newcastle Falcons amid broader club financial crisis

3. Rebel Franchise series

• Mike Tindall-backed R360 targeting world's top 300 players
• Estimated £300-400m needed to launch
• Aims for 2026 launch with 12 franchises, no relegation
• Salaries roughly double traditional club pay

The Pushback:

• Simon Massie-Taylor (Prem CEO): "Rugby needs roots, not pop-ups" - dismisses as "distraction"
• Andrew Georgiou (TNT Sports): Calls it "commercially unsustainable," compares to LIV Golf

4. Gallagher Prem Rebrand

• Rebranding to "Gallagher Prem" focusing on physicality ("real grit", "raw speed", "big hits")
• 10% growth in interest overall, 30% among 18-34 year-olds
• Plans for US showpiece fixtures ahead of 2031 World Cup
• Club World Cup launch in 2028 as "step forward in global expansion"

5. Red Bull Buying Newcastle Falcons

• Taking on £39m club debt
• First rugby union purchase for Red Bull
• Plans to use brand/marketing expertise to attract younger fans
• Commitment to keep team in Newcastle, eyeing Newcastle United synergies

6. Women's World Cup - Rugby's Lionesses Moment?

• 350,000 tickets already sold, targeting 400,000 stretch goal
• O2 partnership giving customers priority access
• BBC partnership ensuring nationwide accessibility
• Goal to increase women's participation from 25% to 33% by 2029

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Transcript

0:00

Hello. Welcome to Unofficial Partner of the Sports Business Podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. Today we're talking about the business of Rugby Union, and my guest is Paul Morgan, who was the former editor of Rugby World Magazine, 15 years. He was communications director of Premiership Rugby, and we talk about a rebrand that they've just gone through over the last couple of weeks. We have a running order. Which includes the British and Irish Lions, the business of, and the, uh, commercial questions Around this Summer's series, we've also got a CVC question and Mark Ale being hired for their new sports Co. What that might mean. We are gonna talk about the R 360. The, uh, rebel series launched or is about to be launched or is being launched franchise series that, uh, has a lot of people talking. The Gallagher Premiership rebrand is now the Gallagher Prem talk about. That's interesting sort of ideas that spin off that. Then we've got red ball buying the Newcastle Falcons and the Women's World Cup is this Rugby's, lionesses moment. All of that over the next hour or so. If you're interested in rugby, give us a shout. Always interested in questions and stories and while you're here. If you like the sports business, you'll really like the Unofficial Partner Substack newsletter, which goes out to, well, I dunno how many thousands and thousands and thousands of subscribers around the world. It's a, uh, semi like Donald Trump now, but it's very good. Have a look. Look for Unofficial Partner Substack Newsletter. You'll find it as an archive going back years and years of stories in relation to the business of sport. One of other thing to flag is wedge issues live. We've got a golf event. We're gonna be talking about golf's vibe shift at the Open Championship at Royal Portas Rush, something I'm looking forward to in a couple of weeks time. If you're at the open, if you're at Portas Rush that week, gimme a shout. We'll try and get you in. Can't promise anything. It's quite a small room, but it is a very, very stellar cast of characters that we've got on stage for that. And, uh, that's on the Wednesday morning of open week, which is always fun. Okay, here is the business of rugby.

Richard Gillis, UP: 2:09

I sort of know your name, obviously around rugby and around the media. And I remember Rugby world and then I saw you, your name attached to various things on the other side, more on the comm side, but just bring us up to

Paul Morgan: 2:23

I mean, look, I, I'm, as, as much of an old school journalist as you'll get, I had the the old school route started at the Richmond Trium Times, which had six first class rugby teams at the time. Went through the finishing school or starting schools, they might have said at Haters Sports agency. From there I went to Rugby World magazine where I was deputy editor and then editor. And while I was at haters, I worked for mail on Sunday. So kept that going as well. Worked for the mail on Sunday for about 20 years on the sports desk there and after what was probably a couple of decades in journalism, then moved into communications and became communications director at Premiership Rugby and then communications lead at Premiership Women's Rugby. So I have managed to see. The game and other sports too, because I covered lots and done Olympic games and European championships and everything. It's nice. See, but the game from both sides of the camera really, I think is from the journalist side where you think you know exactly what happens and how things work. And then from the communications or management side where you really see how, how sports unfolds and how it, how it's all put together. So I've been very fortunate, very lucky in my career to have had quite a few different roles and few different challenges along the way to.

Richard Gillis, UP: 3:37

A Lions fan, do

Paul Morgan: 3:38

Yeah. I mean it's, it was getting up in the middle of the night in the eighties watching unsuccessful and then successful towards the end tours. And this is a bit early for me, but because of those tours in the seventies it's, it's a mythical thing in Wales, you know, I grew up in Kenley where, you know, they don't ask you whether you play rugby, they just ask you what position you play in. I think the fact that it was always so far away meant that these were like gods to us at that time. So you grow up with that. So there was no World Cup then. So I think players will still say it's the pinnacle of their careers, especially if they're going winning tours. But at the time, it genuinely was the pinnacle. There was a Five Nations championship and then there was the lions, there was nothing else. Edwards. Bennett McBride, it produced those players and put them onto a world stage. And it was a long way away. And you know, I've been lucky enough in my career to go to New Zealand four or five times on tours with England and Alliance. But at that time, when it, when I was growing up, we New Zealand, may as well have been on the moon. You know, it was a place we'd all heard of. And the places in the Cargill, the rest were very important to us because we heard them on the, on the radio or read about them in probably in Roby World Magazine. But we couldn't think of going there. So when the lions went there, it was something really important. And they were, you know, Australia had ups and downs through the seventies and eighties, but pretty much South Africa, New Zealand is the biggest test match in world Rugby is the biggest series. So when you were going to play the best, that was another, you know, important part, I suppose, of falling in love with the lions.

Richard Gillis, UP: 5:10

I always wondered how it would fit into the professional era when, the professional era started, I thought the danger. Is the, the lions, it, it sort of is an unusual thing. And quite often professional sport wants straight lines. And we are seeing it at the moment the money frankly wants franchises. They want investible things, and the media likes a sort of constant narrative. And the lions is a, is a, is an odd thing. It's like the ride a cup in some way. I always make that comparison and I always assumed that over time it would just lose its place. But actually almost the reverse has happened. it's still obviously incredibly popular, but there's something about it. Again, it's very nostalgic, the brand, and you can sort of see the way the sponsors come at trying to activate around the lions. They are pulling in old players, they're telling the stories, that route that you quite often go with the lions, I really like that it exists and I'm, you know, I, I love it as a thing, but I'm, there's a bit of me that's quite

Paul Morgan: 6:07

yeah. No, I agree. And in 95, 96, when the game turned professional, there were doubts and everyone kept questioning, could the lion survive? Could they find their place in the calendar? I think the lions were, you know, really fortunate around about oh 1 9 7 having really epic tours. Nine seven was one when they won, of course they lost it in in oh one. But also the, it's a fans thing. The fans have really dictated that the lions lives on a and prosperous, you know, we, it was probably 97 was the first time we saw enormous numbers traveling. It's really, really expensive to go to Australia for this lion's tour, and still tens of thousands of fans will get on planes and go and watch them and, you know, the, the sea of red will be there. I was in Brisbane in oh one seeing the GABA morph with more Lions fans, it seemed, than Australians. So, and of course you've got a lot of expats rolled into that in Australia, but it, I think the fans have decided, you know, that's the key. In football, I suppose the nearest thing we probably got to is the Olympics team. GB football never really caught our imagination, didn't it? For whatever reason, not everyone was there, certain players didn't play. But with the Lions, everyone makes themselves available and the fans back it. And it's, it's a really interesting, I love the fact that on every tour, and we've seen it already, the first thing is the Celtic fans and the Celtic players say how nice the English players are for the first time. They spend 4, 8, 12 years hating everything about English rugby and English players. And then they get on tour and they share a room with'em and they're like, oh, that Ellis Gens, he's actually okay, isn't he? So, so yeah, so I think that's a lovely thing as well. It brings those four nations together and they look from a fan's perspective and a player perspective with, at the English, with a little bit of suspicion. But then I. They're having a, and we're all okay. So yes, it's got a magical formula which will make sure endured, and I think the other thing it's done really cleverly is it's recognized that it has to be a really successful commercial operation. Ben Calvary, the current CEO, he's really led that commercial program and this time. The Lions are in a joint venture with the Australian Rugby Union so that they're doing it together. And I think they've recognized that. They've recognized the players need to be recompense. They've recognized the unions need to be recompense. They've recognized the clubs that those players play for need to recompense. So that's a really clever part of the mix. And they understand the power of the brand. You know, depending which part of the world you'll come from. Some people will say the All Blacks is the biggest brand in rugby. Others will say the Lions are the biggest brand in rugby, but they've taken that brand, whichever, whether it's first or second, depending how well the All Blacks are playing. And they've taken it and they've made a really, really impressive commercial model with it. And, you know, to have a, a brand like Howden who are on the shirt. Brand new really to rugby. They're bringing new people in. TV deal is really good for them. You know, sky, I'm sure will go over a million viewers for the test matches, and that's really big for rugby. You know, that's massive to get into those sort of numbers and the pubs and everything will be full at 11 o'clock each Saturday for those test matches. So yeah, very, very clever, perceptive work done behind the scenes by the lions to, to not be arrogant and go, we're the lions, we are gonna be fine. You know, you just, just support us. You know, you need to, they haven't done that at all. They brought everyone on board and really worked hard, to make sure that all those constituent bodies, the players, the unions, the clubs, and most importantly, the fans are right on board with what they're doing.

Richard Gillis, UP: 9:51

Who owns the, the

Paul Morgan: 9:52

Well, it's the four home unions. Yes. Bew together, you know, so in the Scotland Wales together form a board, which, which runs the Lions and, and Ben Cal, the CEO reports to them.

Richard Gillis, UP: 10:03

So let, let's just explore this JV then. What's, what's the difference? Why is that, why have they done that? What's new about that? Because a lot of the, the sort of mood music around the first of the opening game in Dublin was the price of tickets very high, 160 quid. you're right in, in terms of the commercial partnerships. You've got Qatar, you've got obviously Howden on the shirt there, you've got Canterbury, Charles Tett, Oxford Landing, fanatics, rhino. These are all brands that have sort of got involved. Digital, you've got World Rugby and the Lions are collaborating on Rugby Pass app for the tour and broadcasting. There's a, you know, some deals. Sky has got the exclusive rights over here, but what's the jv? Why is it,

Paul Morgan: 10:44

Well, I as the game, uh, emerged in professionalism, it was pretty, they're a touring team, so I think one of the things that was really important is that commercial, a lot of the TV broadcasting revenue was sitting nation. And I think there was a bit of, not them and us, but a bit of us doing our deals. You doing your deals. And I think like, you know, I'm sure, we'll this, this word, I'll bring this word up a lot on this pod, but it was really about collaboration in the end. And it was about saying, look. For some of the nation, you know, for all three of the nations New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, this tour is commercially crucial for their next period of time. It makes them so much money, the inbound money, I mean the Australian tourist board, you know, having that many visitors at time where they wouldn't normally get visitors. I remember when we were in New Zealand, you know, New Zealand were, were got almost as many visitors in those months of July and August as they would've got around Christmas, which is extraordinary really. So the inbound revenue is massive and I guess collaborating and, and making the best of that together is really the important thing. And it's collaborating. So there was never a feeling of cop. You shouldn't really, you know, be competing comes to that. Um, So I think that's allowed them to sort of take that step forward and bring more, some more global brands into it for the benefit of both the lions and in this instance the Australian Rugby Union.

Richard Gillis, UP: 12:08

What's the, the sort of state of the game in Australia? Because again, there's always, I'm, I'm at arm's length from this and it's great that you are embedded in rugby and you can answer these questions, but quite often when the conversation talks about rugby, it's, there is the sort of state by state question in terms of, actually it's a few states that where the, where rugby is popular, you've got the NRL, which is going great guns, and you've got you know, Aussie rules. So you've got a disparate picture in Australia, and I was looking at some of the revenue generated, so the South Africa tour, I think it looks like it generated about 20 million from the lions Tour in 21, about the same number, slightly more for New Zealand in 2017, Australia, slightly lower than that, but quite often it's about the, the nature of the TV rights contracts that they're able to sign. And so you've got this, you know, big asset. So the question I guess is are they needing to monetize the lions because they're now paying. More people is that, I mean, in terms of that jv it means that they've got more mouths to feed. The players are becoming more on their agents and the teams who own the players are becoming more aggressively sort of, okay, we need a cut from this. It's not, it's not like the sort of Willie John ride days where it's a, you know, it's a, it's a summer holiday for an amateur, so it's, it feels like there's a, tension at the heart of it, which probably is gonna just be cranked up and we'll go on to talk about other, you know, the other bits of the rugby picture. But the lions feels like a bit of a fulcrum for all those conversations.

Paul Morgan: 13:42

Yeah, and I, and I think there was tension through the two thousands definitely between people saying, well, you know, I produced this player, why is he gonna go off for six or seven weeks on this tour, come back and then quite rightly need a rest. So I won't see him for a bit of time, but I think, I think that has dissipated a bit and I think the collaboration has really helped that. In terms of, how important is this for the Australian Rugby Union? It is the most important thing outside of a World Cup, unquestionably, because it is the time where, you know, you, you are quite right when, when the lions are on tour, normally it's the state of origin, which is the biggest thing in town, or the Melbourne Cup as it was in, when we were there for the World Cup. I know that's later in the year, but there are these bigger, you know, rugby union is dwarfed. In Australia. There's no question about that. By NRL, by by Aussie rules. So it's fighting for its life really. So I, so this is the moment, because the other thing we talk about TV, isn't it? It's increasing the profile. So when they go to Sydney, they will sell out, they'll, I mean. Let's hope they do a good job of of, of selling out or almost selling out Melbourne. That's obviously a giant stadium, but that's where the, that's what what the lions bring, they bring that excitement, they bring, you know, legendary status really for outside of a World Cup for a team and players. So the players have got this opportunity to raise their profile massively. There will be more people watching them, more eyeballs on them. So I think in terms of all those sorts of things, the, it, it's absolutely crucial for the Australian Rugby Union. And when we talk about the Lions, another issue, isn't it? Should they be going to these three nations? Should they be going to France? Should they be going to Argentina and other countries? That's the bit of the downside, because they only go to Australia once every 12 years. And if Australia miss out on the next cycle and they don't go there for every 20 years, then the impact's gonna be less, I think. Rugby as a whole needs to look after nations like Australia and they need to look after nations when they're suffering like whales or you know, or others because it needs everyone to prosper. And I think this is a great, the lions are a great example of they will allow Australia to prosper over the next few years, whether that's financially or just from a reach and profile element as well. So every rugby union fan in Australia will come out of the woodwork for the Lions tour. That's a special part of it. And it, and they've, you know, if they have a World Cup, um, it'll be the same.

Richard Gillis, UP: 16:07

There's a CVC question because obviously they have bought into rugby over the last sort of five or six years, and with lots of question marks over it, it had COVID in the middle of that period. They've just made a very interesting hire. So Mark Ara, who many people in the, you know, on the podcast audience will know from his days of EE and BT Sport. And in terms of that that side of the business and now CVC have, have hired him to, to effectively run their sports sort of, Department. I guess. I'm not sure that's the the, the initial positioning, so. When you step back from and using CVC as a sort of proxy for private equity or money investment into rugby, they obviously see something and it's part of the, you know, part of the conversation that you are, you know, the arguments that you are making for rugby and it's the nature of it and it's there, it's sort of slightly disjointed. You've got these areas of incredibly intense. Passion, but then you've also got world rugby building up a much broader platform running across that you've got the, the old problems of clubby country and calendar chaos and player, fatigue and injuries and all of these things. And then obviously with concussion as well, specific to rugby particularly. So it's an interesting picture. so you're looking at the sort of investment thesis from CVCs perspective. They're seeing, okay, there's a really valuable audience here, the players are very popular, they're very articulate, they look great. It, the, the product when it's on the international level is compelling, but there's a real inconsistencies across the, the board. So. I'm trying to sort of piece together what Mark Ale's job is gonna be when he looks at rugby.

Paul Morgan: 17:54

I, I think you're right. I think rugby punches way above its weight. In many ways it gets more attention than probably sometimes it might even deserve, but I think there's two great bits of good news out of the Marco era announcement number one, Marco era. But number two, that CBC are forming a sports co, as they call it. That's great news because it means they're in for the long haul. They're not gonna form a sports co and then exit. So that's the worry obviously with obviously when you get private investment in anything, there is an exit plan. So you're thinking, and look, they'd been an incredible exit from Formula One, didn't they? And, and Liberty's taken it on in an extraordinary way. But we always worry about the exit'cause then what does that lead behind? Or is it new one? But this means that they're in it for the long haul and it means that they still really value rugby. I mean, you're right to bring up people dismiss COVID quite quickly, but the. You know, the devastation that it left behind is still being felt today. And I think that CBC were really unfortunate in a way. They did their investment and that came along to derail it. And they're almost starting a new chapter now. What we, what everyone knows is that rugby investment. Uh, The clubs in England, if you just take England as an example, I know that's not the whole rugby universe. Those clubs are losing upwards 20, 30 million pounds combined every year. So it needs investment, it has to have outside investment. And obviously CVC are one of those. And it was a very bidding at the time. There were other others involved and obviously New Zealand Rugby Union have, have had private equity money as well. So it's great news for that and I think we could really see some movement forward and, and obviously TV is so crucial, we'll always come back to tv, the money it brings. Really important, the reach it brings, the power it brings, the credibility it brings, um, are, you know, huge. And you, you know, you look at the Premier League and would never like to compare Premier League with Rugby's, premier League's, a different world. But you see what, see what the role that TV had in the, the growth of the Premier League was extraordinary, wasn't it? So if you could get that kind of buy-in and if, and, I was working at Premiership Rugby when the BT Sport deal was done in 2013, and it was an amazing, again, amazing deal for Premiership rugby and having Markle there, um, through that time shows how, what, you know, a great influence he's gonna be. And he's not really just gonna be working on the rugby, of course, because CBC have, they have investments across other sports too. So he is gonna be doing that, but they're gonna form that Sports Co. He's gonna be joined by other. Big brains and they're gonna be bringing forward strategies and leading the way, I think, in the next decade or so, and it's gonna help a lot of sport to commercialize and make a brighter future. So that, that, when I saw that was, it was very, very promising, but I'd say not just a rugby that they might end up in now that might lead them to in other sports too. Um, And they've already done that anyway, so, so it could be more investment coming, not necessarily for rugby, but for other sports.

Richard Gillis, UP: 20:53

Okay, so I will put a counter of view. So I, I'm less bullish about the TNT coverage.'cause I think it's taken the game down a, a sort of very small rabbit hole in terms of audience. So I think that, the challenge, obviously the balance is, you know, the money versus where the game sits in the public consciousness. And we're at this point where every sport is asking this question, is it declining in just in general relevance to the days when we were kids, when rugby was just one of the central sports and it was on, now it's just one of many, many, hundreds and thousands of things that. That we can watch and consume. So one of the patterns is short term money over long term investment in the game more broadly. And I think this is the weakness that the, franchise the R 360 thing is, is tapping into, because it's seeing that actually there is value here, but it's not being managed very well by the constituent bodies across world rugby premiership, the RFU. Now, I think there's also the money that CVC brought to the table has effectively become, it's almost like a bank loan. The money just because of COVID, it, it was supposed to be, you know, private equities model is, is operational expertise. You come in and remove inefficiencies. Make things better, more valuable because you know more about the, the business than the people that you are getting rid of and then you then build value and then they're out the other end and sell it. I think the Formula One case study is one of sports great red herrings. I think there's a problem with, using that to judge CVC in sport because actually it made them enormous amounts of money, I don't wanna get into the case study of Formula One, but there is some, you know, there is something specific about that which not necessarily equates to rugby or to lull League of Football or to French football or wherever else they're spending money under the banner of sport. So you've got a lot of questions. Looking at CVC and I again, like you, I saw the, the all higher and I saw the CVC sports CO thing as a signal to the market. That, okay, we are not gonna go away because there has been this idea, you know,'cause private equity will get out eventually. That's the model. And so the job for the people working in rugby is to protect the game to an extent the easiest thing to do is strip out cost, sell it to the highest bidder. A small TV station, which has got a narrow audience, writes a big check, get rid of a load of people, and the business looks more profitable and then you sell it on. That's one way of looking at what private equity does,

23:21

I thought it was worth looking at some of the messaging that they put out around Mark Ale's, role and One Source told Sky News, which is interesting, liken the initiative to the approach employed by Luxury Goods conglomerate lv mh, and they added that there would be parallels with the sharing of best practice used at US basketball's, NBA through its team business operations, team B. To unlock collective opportunities, drive long-term growth. So you've got this idea that. And I think is, is interesting. Not, again, this goes beyond rugby and it's looking at actually what this means in terms of its relationship, what, what private equity is doing, and how it's shaping on the, uh, the money side. So it's all about centralized expertise, shared services across legal, digital, commercial functions to all of the CBC sports properties, Knowledge transfer is obviously a, a, a buzz phrase, operational efficiency again, which is quite often a sort, sort of. A proxy for sacking people, but let's see what happens there. Sourcing of new investment opportunities, buying stuff CVC remaining a stakeholder in its existing portfolio for a longer duration. So again, to your point earlier, Paul, that there is. They're signaling to the market. They're not going away anywhere, anytime soon. So, counter to my cynical view of private equity, autonomous operations CVC. Supporting assets will continue to remain autonomous and independent of each other. Preserving Individual league competition identity,

Richard Gillis, UP: 24:54

rugby is different than an airline or boots chemist or whatever. So that bit, that grayness in the middle is the bit that I think is really interesting. And I think they've struggled and they've come in and, and you just say the big brains, they're quite often, I think we overplay that a bit. I've heard people say, oh, they'll come in and knock heads together. That's always the phrase, but you talk to Brian more and he said, well, you know. good luck with that.'cause rugby is not an easy constituency of people to then come in and start bullying around and start to, get people to do what you want them to do. So I think it's messy and I think it's really interesting that, you know, again, I agree that, that mark Ale is a, is someone obviously of substance and he also was chair of j Gex, which I think is CVC owned. So I think there's a sort of, he's moving in from a different bit of CVCs portfolio, but I think one of the questions that rugby has, and I think again it's a proxy for lots of things across sport, is what is your relationship with the, the money and what does the money want? What are the incentives that cBC are putting in place and are they right for the long-term health of the game? So one of the questions is, and let's, let's talk about R 360'cause I think that's an easy sort of jump into it. So you've got this, this proposal, Mike Tyle backed, which I think is important'cause he's obviously, you know, he's become the poster face of, of the thing. Although there is lots of other people involved as well. I've heard various people say they've put money into it. Roger Mitchell is one, which is quite an interesting one. Mike Tyle BAT R 360. Targeting world's top 300 players, estimated 300 to 400 million pounds. Needed to launch AIMS for a 2026 launch with 12 franchises. No relegation salary, roughly double the traditional club. Pay. Simon Massey Taylor, who were hoping to get on the podcast at some point said Premier oh, I should now call the Prem or Premiership Rugby. CEO Rugby Needs Roots, not popups. It's quite a nice line. Dismissed it as a distraction. Andrew Giorgio of T-T-T-N-T Sport Warner Brothers Discovery calls it commercially unsustainable and compares it to Liv Golf. And Martin Phillips Prem Chairman more nuanced, sees potential benefits from the disruption, which I think we need to be careful with the context of that quote. So there is a split and we're again, Liv Golf being an interesting. comparison. Does rugby need this? Is there a sense of inevitability that this is gonna happen? This is all about that. You normally need for this to work unhappiness in the player group. You need to have a sense of being not paid their worth and a lack of security and a distance between the player group and the people who are running the official game. So is this what rugby needs, do you think

Paul Morgan: 27:38

Yeah. I suppose answering that question, you probably gotta go back a bit. What Rugby's done really well since it turned professional in 1995 is argue with itself. Everybody who could fight with somebody has fought with somebody since 1995 and it shot itself in a foot a number of times. I was a journalist in those late nineties. I'd get a press release at 10 o'clock in the morning from one side to 12 o'clock, from another, two o'clock from another. Nobody even knew which, which, where we were by that moment. So what if it continues to fight amongst itself and whatever those constituent parts are? And we talked a little about the lions in collaboration. There's no fighting now between the lions and the Australian Rugby Union, and we're all going forward together. If it continues to fight, it will fail because I've never met a. Who enjoys a good political fight between two organizations normally have got three letters in their name. And, and so I think that's the key look. The great news is, and I was listening to Jim Hamilton the former prop for a second row, sorry. And now great pundit talk about it. And you know, he was saying he wants innovation. We absolutely do the great news of it all. There is people who want to invest in rugby, again, another group. So whatever the numbers are and however they'll be, they'll be generated. There is some new money coming to rugby, which I think is an absolutely great great news. But what we've just had is the end of a domestic season in England and a European season, which have created all the right headlines. You know, we ended up at Twum with 82,000 people, fin Russell the rest of it. And we've now gone into a Lions tour, which has created a lot of other genuinely positive messages. You know, I, I hear you early. It's not all, everything's not all rosy, obviously, but we are creating, and again, you know, talking back to Simon Massey Taylor's words, they, you know, they've had a, a period where three of the clubs went outta business. They feel like they're turning a new chapter and starting a new part of the book. So. That's what the challenge, I think is almost, and it can only be a world rugby thing. This, and, you know, luckily, I don't know if you had him on the pod, but luckily, CEO world Rugby is, is a really great collaborator, Alan Gilpin. He's got to get that in tray stacked and he's got to bring it all together and he's gotta make sure that rugby doesn't miss any opportunities. But I totally understand what Simon's saying about that because he's focused every day on growing the game and he feels like he, he's turning a new chapter. So for me, if collaboration is not the watch word of the next era, whatever it is, and whatever money comes in and whatever people come in, it won't work. And it needs to be, everyone needs to get together, collaborate for the best of the game, bring this investment together. And therefore the, the future could be really rosy, but it's got to involve everybody. Again, as we talked about earlier, when you isolate people or exclude people, that's never the best way to, to get for, to take things forward. So we've had the era of Ros arguing amongst ourselves in the game. Now it's the year of collaboration. If they get that right, there's loads of positive things about the sport. They haven't got it right yet, that's for certain, but you know,

Richard Gillis, UP: 31:04

okay, so I, I hear you and I would love, love to see your scenario play out because I think that would be healthy for the game. I look at live golf something that is coming in against the of established game. There's a couple of scenarios which. Present themselves. One is that you get halfway, you get stuck. And Liv has got more money than this thing has got. I think, you know, you've got Saudi money, you can't have more money than that. And they are thrown and enormous, you know, billions and billions and billions at the players. But they still only have, you know, and it's still a product, which is not penetrating culturally. It's still there. It's been going four or five years. We're now looking at a place where they're trying to make a deal back with the PGA tour. So you've got this, the schism, and the problem with the schism, it's just really boring after a while. It's a bit like, the reform party, there's a sort of excitement about. Saying everything, shit. And we are gonna, just gonna be, new starts, new ways of doing things. That's easy. It's a campaigning position. I don't want those people running the government. There's a question there in terms of, well, what is gonna be different Other than it's just different. It also throws a light on, where there is truth there is that they, they are identifying the problem. And what Liv Golf did is identify the problem of the, the torque.'cause the tor a lot of the Tor product is boring. It's not servicing the audience. And you could say that when I look at, again, I'm not a huge rugby fan. When I look at rugby, I dunno where to start. You know, I need a spreadsheet and a soine before I get going. In terms of, you know, where, what competition's going on at any one time, who's playing for what team, how, you know, the narratives are all over the shop. So. I can see that's the weakness. And I can see that you know, you, you instantly go to a franchise thing. You go to a sort of McKinsey esque model for sport, which is closed leagues, American model IPL stuff. It's a sort of loads of, of the bits thrown in together and pointed at rugby. And it's being pointed at lots of other sports as well, whether it works or not, you know, and again, the amount of money this is gonna take and don't expect the, the people in, you know, the establishment to just sit back and let that happen because they will then come back and, and the problem with golf is that it's just stuck. So I'm going to the open in a couple of weeks time. Last year at the open, people were saying there, their meeting a deal was gonna get done. You know, the tours are sitting together, p and. Strategic Sports group, they're all gonna sit around a table with Jay Monaghan, all of these things. But now we're a year on and nothing is still, it's still stuck and it's really boring for everyone concerned, and the whole industry starts to decline. So the problem that rugby will have is that those brands that are throwing money at the Lions, they need consistency. Media, right? Buyers, sponsors, they all need to see what the future is gonna be. And once you start to get a disruptive series in this way, I think you start to chip away at that. And then over time. People say, oh Jen, I'm not, you can't get involved in golf. You can't get involved in rugby because actually no one knows what's going on yet. We'll come back to it and they might never come back to it'cause something else will happen. You know? So a new thing will catch their attention. So whilst these sports are sort of warring amongst themselves, life goes on, you know, media goes on, sponsors go on the tech platforms, move up, move forward with just with something else. It's not important that it's rugby. So I like a rebel series story.'cause I think it's actually quite a useful lens into the status quo. And that does need to be attacked sometimes.

Paul Morgan: 34:40

Oh yeah, we do.

Richard Gillis, UP: 34:41

But I don't want

Paul Morgan: 34:42

Yeah, no, we don't want any disruption. And I suppose one of the things that rugby, if it's looking back at this and what could it have done better, is not embracing some of the people that are really key to this project. Because those people feel they were on the outside and they should have maybe embraced, you know, Mike Tyle World Cup winner. Done a huge amount since, you know, his voice was obviously not being heard as well, so there's lots of things you can look back.

Richard Gillis, UP: 35:09

Hi. His is the only voice I hear. I literally, I never, never stop hearing Mike Tinder's voice, how he's married to a, the royal family. How is he not the establishment? I mean, I mean, I don't understand it. Why he's, how he views himself as being a sort of, you know, plucky outsider is beyond

Paul Morgan: 35:26

a fair point. But yeah, I think, I think you, you wanna learn, always learn those lessons. I think, and I think you live golf is a great example, but it, there is potential here for a positive outcome. I think as Roger Mitchell said himself is the players will probably make the ultimate decision whether they will go, obviously a lot of them are saying that they, they're international caps that, you know, that all those things. There's, there's so much we don't know yet. We know some of it, but there's so much devil in the detail that we don't know yet. And I expect that to, to, to sort of, to come out soon. Yeah. And we'd all want them to be doing exactly what, what for the good of the game. And you are quite right. Once there's an argument, commercial partners don't know which way to jump and they probably don't jump any anyway at all.

Richard Gillis, UP: 36:08

Okay. Right. So let's, we'll, follow this thread. So we're gonna get to the Gallagher premiership rebranded. So rebranding to the Gallagher Prem. focusing on, this is the, the bit that I found really interesting, focusing on physicality,

Paul Morgan: 36:21

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP: 36:22

real grit, raw speed, big hits. Now I did a, a session at the, at World Rugby's sort of annual start the year thing in Dublin. And one of the questions was, I. Exactly that in terms of the, marketing of rugby in an era of concussion where you've got a generation of parents who've been told, don't let your kids play rugby. And they've made this decision to take that full on and say, right, no, we're gonna be big hits, is a yes. that's the bit of rugby that, that is a point of difference. I can see the marketing whiteboard, the advertising agency whiteboard where you're, you know, you are sort of throwing ideas there. The differentiation of rugby is physicality. There's no getting away from it. You don't want to, you know, dial that down, particularly when you're selling it. But the obvious point being there is a cost to that physicality and. I, I wonder where you are. What did you think when you saw those words being attached?'cause that's been a while since I've seen a marketing campaign on rugby focus on so

Paul Morgan: 37:30

Yeah, it's again, following the fans. Whenever you put up a YouTube compilation of big hits, it gets better than. 150 times better than the compilation of great tries. And of course we all grew up on a game where there was probably punches thrown and kicks and rucks and all sorts of things. And when we see those videos now from the seventies and you show'em to people, they almost can't believe it's the same game. So yeah, it's a really, really. Thin line, you have to tread, isn't it? You do have to do what fans want and fans absolutely want that, but you do have to do it with player welfare absolutely. At the top of the agenda. And of course, rugby's moved quite a bit in the last decade, and Tackle Heights have come down and I suppose those big hits 20 years ago might have been to the head. Those big hits now are to the ribs. Which potentially might have, will not have necessarily the consequences, but it is aligned to tread. I can absolutely see why they've gone there because it, it obviously is so popular and it is the thing that in the ground that we're in, when that hit goes in and Courtney Laws, as he used to do very often, would make that big hit you. The ooh, the whole ground goes. Ooh. Right.

Richard Gillis, UP: 38:43

yeah, yeah. yeah. I always find uh, this is, again, this is a non rugby uh, person talking. I'm a football person more than a rugby person. I always think when I do go to, and it is only a big game, I only ever go to a Twickenham International. You know, it's wherever I'm invited. Frankly, Paul, I, I, you know, I've never paid for a ticket, but, you know, so this is, this is who I am, but there is, you're right about the crowd, and there was sort of, I always think there's a, I remember, I remember sitting in. Twickenham for one of the England games. And there's a, there's a sort of weird vibe about it, which is when the hits happen, there is a sort of, ah, there's almost like a sort of, it's almost like a ho erotic private score, ho erotic sort of thing going on. This is a very twickenham lens. I'm sure it's not the same in Wales. It's not the same. But there is something there about, oh, look at, look at the size of him. You know, look at whacking each other, look at him wrestling on the ground. And, well, this is me projecting onto this, by the way, but there's a, there's a, there's a sort of bit of it that is, it's, that's what, what people really want. You don't get that at football, you know, you don't get that. You've got that raw sense of combat, which is, is visceral and it's really exciting. And I, I'm gonna be really interested to see how

Paul Morgan: 39:57

too. It,

Richard Gillis, UP: 39:58

Is activated on, you know, in terms of the way in which they start to then put sort of creative

Paul Morgan: 40:04

yeah. It also brings in the piano shifters. To the absolute center of the game as well, not just the piano players, right? So it, we love Ellis Genge, we love Marrow and it brings them right in as well, which I think is why we sort of love that, don't we? We kind of, we loved Jason Leonard, or we used to when he played, but he was never gonna score a try, was he? Or make a move. But he could have put in a big hit, which he did a number of times. So it brings them in. It also can change again. You know, we've seen it before. Now a team 10 points behind that big hit goes in, the ball rolls out. So it's a knock on. So it's a scrum. We're all now going forward so they can change the game. I don't know whether the equivalent in in football is that big, huge tackle we used to see in the seventies. I think it probably is. Yeah, so I think rugby, I guess with football the tackle's still the same. You're still hitting someone's leg and potentially injuring them. Rugby's tried to do an awful lot more to bring the tackle height down. Can, can, should, and will do a lot more for player welfare. So I think player welfare's gotta be the central part of it. It feels like. The players are on board with it. It feels like the players are happy with this being done as well. So that's really important too. But yeah, really interesting to see how the whole thing plays out. And, you know, what we had, as I say, was an outstanding finish of the season. Now it's a new era coming forward, 25, 26 foot for the Gallagher Prem. And you know, it's, it's got a huge opportunity on the back of the Lions with another World Cup on the horizon to actually, you know, to really prosper. So it'll be fascinating to see if, if they can make that happen.

Richard Gillis, UP: 41:42

I don't actually know which agency has got the gig for that, actually. Who's, and whether or not the, so the Gallagher used to be Havas, used to have Gallagher, but I don't, I'm not sure if that's still the case. And then who works for the, for the Premier Lee or Premiership or the Premier as I'm now call them. So yeah, it'd be interesting to sort, someone will tell me, someone will get in touch. Now I've said it, but there's a it's interesting you say that about, what this looks like on the scroll, you know, so on the phone, rug on the scroll is a series of hits and tries and, you know, and every sport. Again, it's, what's interesting about the sort of looking at a particular sport is that you are taking this sort of 80 20 thing where you are looking, okay, what is rugby on this, you know, what does it look like on TikTok and on, reels and, uh, YouTube shorts and it's. How that looks. And there's a sort of greatest hits, and we all, you know, and again, I get served a lot of rugby, but it's, trying to work out what that does to the image of the game and what the set of expectations are. So always this question about trying to bring new people into the game. And we had Warren Gatland on, and I asked him what his favorite game was, and it was like a three or, you know, seventies, you know, it was like a club game in New Zealand and, and, and it was just intense, attritional, rainy, you know, and that proper rugby in his eyes, but you, it's quite interesting when you see the product and what the product then becomes because you,, the temptation is to give the audience what it wants and actually what it wants, the, the big eventers just want 42, 38. wild running rugby, which is part of it. And I like that, frankly, if I go, go along, but that's just part of the game. It's interesting seeing that the US opened golf the other day where people really moaning about the scores and the difficulties. And, and, and actually a lot of people who really liked golf really loved it because the diet, the usual diet is quite dull if you really know what you're looking for. So, you know, it's complicated and it's, it's a difficult job they've got. And we, you know, as I say, if we get Simon on, we'll we'll talk to him about it, but I think it's really interesting the way they've, they've gone about it. Okay. Right. We're still in the the prem Red Bull buying Newcastle Falcons. Why is this important and what's the, just give us a bit of backstory to this.'cause again, I saw the, obviously, you know, your, your head goes to Red Bull and Sport and all those things, but just give us a bit

Paul Morgan: 44:03

Oh look, I suppose there's loads of bits to say here, aren't there? Number one, for the prem, having a team in the Southwest with extra and a team in the northeast in Newcastle are crucial. You know, the having that. Country spread and they don't have everything in between is really, really important. So, so important that the Falcons who, you know, let's, let's not forget, they were the first Premiership champions when, so John Hall was there and ran the club and they had Inga Tala and dear our, our dear departed friend, Dotie Weir. And they had some, the, the stars of the game were playing there. So they've got a great history. And I think, I think it's probably, again, look, it's one of the, there's not an awful lot of outside money in the prem. CVC brought out some money and a lot of the investors, you look at someone like a Martin Sin Quest Sin Quentin at Gloucester, and even Bruce Craig at Bath and Seymour himself and Tony Row at Extra Chiefs. They're very local people who've wanted to get involved in a local thing, which has obviously cost them a huge amount of money over the years. So to have, I think, a brand of this. Global appeal coming into the prem is enormous. And I think it also brings into, you know, great brings into the spotlight those owners again. And, and you know, there's no question about it that without Seymour Kirti the current owner, there is no Newcastle Falcons. It doesn't exist. And

Richard Gillis, UP: 45:27

Oh, I wonder why Red Bull have done it. I can't. I try, I, can't get my head into that bit of the equation.

Paul Morgan: 45:32

It's, it's definitely a club that's been successful, is now unsuccessful. It's a really great part of the country. You know, some absolutely outstanding players from the north, from Cambria, from Yorkshire. There's an area of the country that they can potentially own, you know, down to sail in Manchester.

Richard Gillis, UP: 45:53

But this is a, this is, this is Red Bull's first. Rugby purchase. So they've never, they're not in rugby, so it's quite wi, you know, I, I think with all respects, and I, I think it's a lovely story and I think I'm really all for it, but it's, I'm trying to get and I we'll find this out. One of the good things about having a podcast is that people do tell you the answer to these questions. You are, you sort of open, openly ask, but trying to get my head into Red Bull, buying into rugby, first of all, and then landing on Newcastle Falcons as a, as an asset and what they will then look to do or'cause like in football, you can sort of see the plan and then in, in, you know, the people jumping off the moon or whatever, all, you know, all the other stuff that they do, you've got a whole bit going on. And I could, I've, I sometimes you've got the sort of, and they're an incredibly innovative business in terms of content. They were years ahead of the time in terms of branded content. So all of that makes sense, but I just don't know

Paul Morgan: 46:48

I mean I think they have been in rugby a few player PON branding sponsorships they've been at within England rugby for a while. Obviously the drink's very popular amongst the demographic, so I think they have nibbled at rugby. And, you know, as we've seen them take over teams football teams around around Europe. I think, and, and look, let's be honest, Newcastle focus was for sale. So you can't just, you know, they couldn't have, they couldn't have bought Harlequins or whatever. So I guess there was an opportunity. That's number one. Number two, they probably, you know, saw the option to buy a club and actually buy a club with real history on it. And a club that is, it's in a, you know, it couldn't be a less congested part of England for rugby union. It's the Falcons down to sale in, in Manchester. Right. You know, that is a big section of the country. So I think, I think there was an opportunity on those things, but yet you can only, you can only sort of marvel at the ability of, you know, the people around doing the deal that they did a deal with such an amazing, what could be such an amazing brand to be involved in rugby union.

Richard Gillis, UP: 47:55

There must be someone on the, on the brand side. I There must there there's a story here. I sense it, Paul, we'll get to it. There, there must be a, there must be a route, which makes sense because I could, I get all the, the big picture thing, but I just, it's, it's, feels, feels, odd, but we'll we'll get to it. let's, get to the let's get to the last question. Let's talk about Women's World Cup because I think, this is, and your framing is, is, you know, is this Rugby's Lionesses moment, which I think is quite a nice route in here. We've got 350,000 tickets already sold, targeting 400,000, which again, is a stretch target O2 partnership. BBC doing it, I know that HBS and I think doing the the feed. So you've got a lot of sort of sport industry activity going on, and they've got a quite a punchy goal to increase women's participation from 25% to 33% by 2029. I was at the launch of the Women's Cricket 2020 World Cup about a month ago at Lords, and one of the questions was, why haven't they got a brand? So you've got the, you know, the Lionesses, you've got the Red Roses, what about the, you know, and Cricket is, is gone a different direction, but what do you think, what's what's your hopes and dreams

Paul Morgan: 49:06

women's rugby has been one of the saviors of Rugby Union globally in the last decade. You know, participation levels are down. But women's rugby's come along in the wave of women's sport, and it's put a smile on everyone's faces. The ink, the red Roses win, you know, obviously they didn't win the World Cup final, but win 20 games on the trots win Grand slams, like it's going outta fashion. So they put everyone's, and they have connected with the fans in the most extraordinary way. You know, if you are lucky enough to go to a Red Roses game, they're still out, they're still out the side of the pitch two hours later, giving away pairs of boots, giving shirts, signing things, having failed. So they've, they're ama the, you know, the RFU. To do, to give them credit for, for a long time of invested in the women's game in a way that other nations didn't. So I think, I think it is, you know, it's quite right as Sarah Massey, the, the, the, the head of women's World Cup says is a generational moment and an opportunity for women's rugby to start catching up women's football. And what we know is that the, the winds are behind women's sport, aren't they? Everyone wants to find a reason now to back women's sport. And this is rugby. It couldn't have come at a better time for rugby. And if this World Cup was in New Zealand, it wouldn't have been the opportunity that it is, but having it in England and as you say, you know, I, I was at the last time the women's World Cup was in England and the pool stage matches were at Sury Sports Park Now. It's a very lovely university, but we were standing around a pitch. Now we're gonna watch the World Cup, the World Cup final. That time was in the, at the stoop. And yeah, of course we were all thrilled. That was 14,000 sellout. It's gonna be an 82,000 sellout across the road. So, extraordinary growth, extraordinary opportunity for, for a whole generation of young girls to play rugby and play it differently from the men because, you know, Flo Williams, who's gone in as the creative director at Sarason, a former sarason player or current sarason player, says there's no history of women's sport. So do it any way you want. There's no template. You don't have to do it like the men. Do it however you want. So what an opportunity for a really crucial bit of the game to absolutely prosper and do what they want. And if they wanna do TikTok dances half an hour after a game that they've won or lost, absolutely fine. Let them do it because that's what they want to do. And they're not the men. And as one of the women players, Shauna Brown once said to me, don't treat us like little men. Treat us like women. And they can do it. And they're there. And that the, the, the, the, the book is empty. There are blank pages. Define what you want. It's so exciting. And what I really hope is they, the

Richard Gillis, UP: 51:49

Well, I think, I think there's an interesting comparison. The obvious comparison is women's football, you know, in terms of the same arguments are, are made about the same or different, you know, and as you evolve, I mean, I thought one of the, again interesting, and I thought probably the wrong move was to, to launch a, a British Lion, British and Irish Lions women's team, women's tour. I thought, actually to your point, they don't need to do that. The issue will be at, at a sort of almost a world rugby level, how you allocate resources to this and what you are doing in terms of, of monetizing and commercializing women's rugby. They've got sevens, which again, is losing the money. So I'm, they're in a sort of real politic. World where there's finite resources. So you've now got this new thing and I agree that actually it's gonna need careful management. This World Cup is gonna be important. But ev we always say that about major events. You know, people pin two higher hopes on major events from the Olympics down to, institute real change. What happens after and running into I think is, you know, is equally as important. But we obviously need them. But people sort of overplay their role in terms of from all sorts.'cause we all project onto major events our own. Unhappiness or our own bit of the world if you are in charge of participation, that's gonna be the driver. If you are in charge of money, that's gonna be a driver. So all of this is really fascinating and again, I think it sort of shines a light on actually what's the situation now and what the club game infrastructure is now and what actually does it need, how is this going to change anything and what the, I can see again, there's a sort of parallel with the, the cricket event that I went to in terms of the launch. I can see a lot of individual stars coming outta this. I can see a sort of Leah Williamson. Effect where you are suddenly seeing these people cut a cast of new celebrities and the, the marketing industry loves new faces and they'll be brought in to that world, but actually, does that do anything substantive for the game as a whole? So it's trying to sort of balance those things. These are always really, you know, sounds like I'm being very negative, but actually I'm very keen that this is a success. But I'm very interested in how they're going

Paul Morgan: 54:13

Oh yeah, it,

Richard Gillis, UP: 54:14

it and building on the moment.

Paul Morgan: 54:15

a success if the club game doesn't see a boost in attendance and a boost in new commercial partners and Twickenham, when the next time the Red Roses turn up, it's gonna be 60,000, not 40. It definitely, it has to have a legacy and people talk forever about 2012, which we all loved at the time, but where's, you know, where is the legacy from that has to have a legacy and it has to bring and, and look. It has to be, you know, if Ellie Kilda is the star of, of that women's World Cup, she's got to, her fame's gotta translate back to her club Harlequins. And people have gotta want to come and watch her there in a way that. Elona changed, changed the world you know, six months or so ago. So yeah, it has to have a legacy. You know, without question, 82,000 people are Twickingham. Red Rose is winning. It is brilliant, but it's got to go on from there. And that's what definitely world rugby and others, when the circus leaves town, it's got to leave behind it. Some, you know, highwire acts that we all want to go and see for certain,

Richard Gillis, UP: 55:14

Fantastic. Well, listen, we've only just scratched the surface, so we'll we're, there's a whole load of stories obviously that we haven't covered load of things that I think I'm just getting gathering together. Questions. I've got a whole thing about, I'd be interesting to see how the lions evolve. So, you know, this summer, Just a fantastic moment. I saw Charlie Beal, who I know just gotten a job at ENSs, well done to him from IMG or used to be at what, what was it called? Seven

Paul Morgan: 55:40

or seven league.

Richard Gillis, UP: 55:42

seven League. Seven League, yeah. Yeah, yeah. God, that's incredible. How quickly I forget, but yes. So Charlie Bier, congratulations to him. We've got a whole load of questions about the Welsh Rugby Union. I'd love to get into those at some point. We've mentioned South Africa and I'd like to talk about the Pacific Islands questions. I'd like to talk about the TV rights market for rugby. Generally, there's a whole load of different things, but in the meantime, Paul, thanks a lot for your time. I love that. I.