UP489 Expected Goals Live @ SOOO London

A special live episode of our sister publication, Expected Goals, hosted by Maggie Murphy and Matt Cutler.

Sponsored by Evelyn Partners. 

Expected Goals Live - Investment in Women's Football

Event Summary & Analysis

This live podcast episode from Expected Goals captured a pivotal moment in women's football investment, featuring industry experts discussing the money flowing into the sector and entrepreneurs pitching their businesses.

Chapter 1: The Investment Panel - Who's Writing the Cheques?

Participants: Nikki Boyd (Sphera Partners), Richard Thomas (Octo Sport), Olivia Hall (Firebird Collective), Anne Rodriguez (Pitch Wise Holdings)

The panel revealed the sophisticated criteria investors now apply to women's football opportunities. Geographic positioning emerged as crucial - not just population size, but competitive landscape and heritage matter. The emphasis on academy programs signals investors are thinking beyond immediate returns to long-term player trading revenue, even though million-pound transfers remain elusive.

Chapter 2: Global Hotspots - Where the Smart Money is Going

The US market drew mixed reactions - acknowledged as having momentum but potentially overvalued. Europe, particularly the UK, emerged as the consensus sweet spot, with Australia flagged as "massively undercooked" commercially.

The debate over closed versus open leagues revealed philosophical differences, with some investors preferring the security of closed systems while others saw promotion/relegation as adding necessary competitive tension.

Chapter 3: Beyond Clubs - The Ecosystem Play

Investors are increasingly looking beyond traditional club ownership to leagues, media companies, and ancillary businesses. The recent investment in the Upshot League (US women's basketball) exemplifies this approach - backing established operators entering structured ecosystems rather than entirely new concepts.

Chapter 4: Advice from the Money - What Entrepreneurs Need to Know

The panel's counsel was brutally practical: come with more than PowerPoint presentations. They want to see contracts, data, and proof of concept before writing cheques. The emphasis on resilience reflects the reality that this remains a marathon investment thesis.

Chapter 5: The Broader Sports Landscape - Opportunities and Threats

Discussion expanded beyond football to sports like netball, volleyball, and emerging Olympic sports. The fragmentation risk in US volleyball - with four leagues competing for the same market - serves as a cautionary tale about premature market splitting.

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Transcript

0:00

Hi, Richard Gillis here. Welcome to Unofficial Partner. This week, something a little bit different, we are handing over Unofficial Partner to our sister publication Expected Goals. And so what you're gonna hear is Expected goals live from so London, on Regent Street on the 19th of June, so just a couple of weeks ago, and it starts with Maggie and Matt hosting a panel of investors and advisors the subject was, investment in women's football. As you'll hear, there is a panel of experts, Nikki Boyd from Sphere Partners, Richard Thomas, Octo Sport, Olivia Hall, Firebird Collective, and Anne Rodriguez, pitch Wise holdings and then this was followed by nine entrepreneurs operating in and around women's football space to looking for a combination of investment, sponsorship and guidance who gave three minute lightning pitches. You'll hear that on expected goals. Own channel, but in the meantime, give it a listen. If you are interested in, or you have a commercial stake in women's football, you really should be listening to expected goals. It's leading the market in that space around the business of the game. Expected Goals is an Unofficial Partner production. You can get in touch by emailing Matt at Unofficial Partner dot co.uk. Hope you enjoy it. Expected goals overthinking the business of women's football. Hello. Hello, I'm Maggie Murphy. And I'm Matt Cutler, and you're listening to Expected Goals Live. We are delighted to have so many of you in here tonight. As you know, this is a live recording, so if you do shout out, you will probably be picked up. Um, and this will go out to all the people that are listening, uh, who are not able to be here. We are absolutely thrilled to have you, uh, join us physically for our first ever live event. Matt and I wanted to be really clear about the purpose of doing something like this. We didn't want to sit on the surface of women's football. We wanted to be part of creating something and seeing if we could help create. A legacy, uh, that is why you are all here. We, uh, we see you as active participants. Okay, so yes, we have the first panel that Matt will talk about. Yes, we have the pictures, but ultimately I want all of you to be listening and thinking, what is it that I can do to help some of the people that are pitching? What is my role in this space? We are so grateful to be hosted here at, so on Regent Street, the home of women's sport for 2025. It is a retail space, hence. No red wine. Please be careful, especially you guys over there in the underwear section. No spillages. That's also why there's no messy food hopefully as well. So just remember that we are in, uh, somebody's shop. Um, hopefully you'll have spent a bit of your cash or we'll come back and spend a bit of your cash. As Maggie mentioned, you know, this is a very unique venue and we were very sure that we wanted to create a unique event that is befitting. Of this, uh, I actually can't take any credit for it. This is an idea that Mag Tom has been in her head for years, so she, so she can take the credit for the, uh, for the event format. And it's all gonna be about the money. It's all gonna be about investment into women's sport, but women's football specifically, and it's gonna run in three parts. We, you read and people say all the time that more investment needs to be made into needs to be going into. Women's sport into women's football, but you very, very rarely hear from the people who are actually putting up the money and doing exactly that. And so the first part we are gonna be hearing from people who are holding the purse strings, people who are advising those who are holding the purse strings about the decision making processes that go into investing in any type of business. Within the women's football ecosystem, not just clubs. We're talking about the media, we're talking about agencies, we're talking about suppliers, apparel companies. So that, that's the first thing that we're gonna be talking about. And then we're gonna be looking at the other side of the coin by having entrepreneurs pitching and pitching's, maybe not quite the accurate word here, but telling us about their businesses and some of the support. That they are looking for from the sports industry, from people in this room, from people listening to this podcast. And that might be money. You know, everyone needs a bit more money, right? It might be guidance, it might be sponsorship. And so that's what you're gonna be hearing from lightning pitches. Everyone's gonna pitch for three minutes. It's gonna be short, sharp, and fast. And then we're gonna round it up by getting everyone together in this unique venue. We've got drinks. We've got food, we have some ice. There's genuinely an ice shortage in and around Oxford Street, but everything is cold at the moment. So, uh, there'll be plenty of plenty of stuff to drink. And, and, and the whole point of that is that we just bring everyone together. And Maggie said, you know, we, we set up expected goals as a platform Yes. To analyze the business of women's football. But we want it to try and be more than that. We want it to be something that we can help bring people together for the, for the growth, for the growth of women's sport, for the growth of women's football, for the growth of sport more generally. So that's where we're gonna bring. Everyone together just very quickly, we wanted everyone to be aware that this is part of SO'S small business program, which is powered by Xero. Many of you will know that Xero has been a massive, massive supporter in the women's football space for a number of years now. So we're super grateful to them for sponsoring this event, but also they will be partnering on events in the future. Um, anyone who is a listener of Expected Goals can also benefit from 90% off six months if you sign up using zero.com/expected goals. We also have an incredible partner for this event and this event only who we would love to thank in person, um, evil and Partners, a massive, massive thank you of Adam and a whole team in the house. They're the ones that have come on board for this event in particular. We can't host events like this without a really strong ecosystem, so we're super, super happy that evil and partners have come on board. They are doing a lot in, in the women's football space. As the sector grows, um, in the form of wealth management and advisor and advice, uh, when it comes to financial management. So obviously as the sector grows, um, they'll also be able to support that growth as well. We'll hear a little bit more from Adam, um, just after our first panel. Let's get going. Let's get going. Enough about us. We're gonna do intros here, but you know, like the club World Cup where the, uh, footballers are walking out. Oh yeah. Yeah. We're gonna, do we have songs for each of them? Uh, how good Your voice? Uh, no, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that. We can do a dance. Someone else can sing. Alright. Shall I start? We will first bring out, uh, Nikki Boyd. Uh, give everyone, give Nikki a big round of applause as she makes it to the stage. So Nikki is founder. Pick your, you get to pick founder and managing partner of Sphera. So, sphere is a relatively recently launched growth equity investment firm. Um, just 10 days ago, Sphera actually launched one of their investments in the Upshot League, which is a one of these. Brand new. Cool, exciting, way more exciting than us in the uk. A cool US basketball league professional league for women. Um, she's also an angel investor, a mentor, an advisor, and she's got more than two decades of experience building, uh, companies and investing into companies. So thank you, Nikki, for joining us today. We also have Richard Thomas Rich come on stage. Um, rich might be best known for running and growing the, uh, commercial partnerships at New Zealand Rugby, but now he is working at Octa Sport, which advises investors in, in the women's sport and in the women's football space. So, uh, rich brings them a mix of commercial and advisory backgrounds. So thank you for coming. And next up we have Olivia Hall. So Olivia's founder of Firebird, she's an impact investor in women's sports. She's already funded a number of companies, including Laura Young's, IDA Sports that is downstairs. Um, and she's also been investing into funding, uh, Monarch Collective, who themselves are investing in soccer clubs over in the US right now. Uh, and she also co-owns London Mavericks, the netball team that's based here in the uk. So. Thank you so much Olivia, for coming to join us. And last, but by no means at least we have Ann Rodriguez, who is co-founder and general partner of Pitch Wise Holdings. I like the swagger there. Come on, let's acknowledge the swagger that Ann came out on. That's the energy we need. Um, so pitch wise are a search fund and they're targeting men's and women's, uh, football clubs globally, uh, and has a wealth of experience, uh, both operating advising. A range of rights holders including, and correct me if I'm wrong here, the I-O-C-M-L-S-N-B, a few Premier League clubs. Did I miss anyone big? Um, yeah. More or less operating roles within those environments. Sponsorship roles, yeah. Great, great. So this is our panel. So as everyone knows, expected goals is around the business of women's football. So we're gonna be very, very specific and start off with football clubs in particular and what investors. Are maybe looking for from a football club. Super topical right now. We spend a lot of time on the podcast, obviously talking about, say, for example, the recent investment in Chelsea, uh, and the fact that Adrian Jacob, a former chair of Chelsea Women's, said recently that he expects, uh, around 50% of the WSL clubs in the next 12 months. To receive external investment into the football club. Now, not everyone is Chelsea women. Uh, we have lots of different types of football clubs and we have lots of different types of investors. So when you think about football clubs, independent clubs. Clubs are attached to a big brand. Men's team clubs in a closed league, open league clubs that are um, that have really strong backing from the men's side of the club and maybe others that don't have that much backing from the men's side of the club. Clubs are blank slate clubs that actually have a really strong presence personality fan base. My question to all of you to start with, and I'll probably start with you Nikki, far end, is what are your three non-negotiables? When you are looking at investing into a football club, what are the three things that are most important to you? So firstly, I apologize, I lost my voice yesterday. I do not normally sound like this, so I'm gonna do my best. Um. It'll stop me talking too much. So I tried to keep this really snappy, energy high as Maggie instructed. So, um, geographic location, um, that's the country we're looking thinking about. Um, but also geographic location in terms of, you know, what's the catchment area, what's the demographic, what are the other clubs around that? Um, you know, who can you need, you know, women's sport needs to build audience. Who are you, where are you gonna be building audience. So that's a really critical one. Um, we are looking for really strong academy programs, um, with, you know, talent development and having that already in place, both to build. Uh, squad, you know, build squad day one, but also thinking about player trading revenue, um, in the future. And then, uh, the, my third point was gonna, generally assuming which is most European, um, women's clubs, you know, owned by men's, is to find a partner with which you have sufficient alignment. We are looking for significant stakes, significant minorities or majorities. But you still have to work with that partner and you know, you are probably gonna share a brand and some infrastructure, um, carving a few things out over a period of time. So that's really, really important. And we've said to a no, to a lot, um, for that lateral reason. Fascinating. I'm just gonna pick up quickly, when you say catchment area, do you mean you want to be in a space where there's lots of other clubs and lots of, uh, people or so take a. You've got Newcastle, Sunland, Durham, all in that one space, for example. Or you go down to Bristol where there's not many clubs around there. And I'm not meaning for you to talk specifically about those clubs, but more like. Do you want lots of people in that catchment area or do you want few people? So a wider catchment area. Um, so I mean it in many different ways actually. So catchment in terms of, you know, where are you getting your players from, what's your reach? Are you competing with, you know, 10 other London clubs that have a better brand than you in terms of sourcing players? And then in terms of audience, I mean, catchment. So again, are you the only club in a region that could then be an advantage? Um, because, but is it a big enough town with a big enough population that. With a big enough football, heritage, et cetera, et cetera. Got it. Richard three top, negoti, three Non-negotiable. Going second, it means that everything's the same, but um, yeah, I think we would definitely talk about audience first. So who is gonna come and come to your games? And frankly, we'd look at that more than players. So we're interested in who's gonna come and pay money. And buy merchandise because they're motivated by the area that the, and supporting the area. Um, secondly, alignment. Um, do they actually really want to back the women's team or is this something that they have to do? And if they have to do it, we're not interested and we, and our investors we know are not interested. And it's a long conversation, but always comes the same outcome, which is no. Um, and then the third thing is, um. What's the upside? How do we really see this can grow? So that comes a bit back to catchment, it comes better back to, you know, is this, is this club got enough scope to really commercially go where we want it to go? Got it. So fan base is really important for you because you see that's where the, the commercials are by way of catchment area. You just said that, you know, alignment is important, but, um, so you wanna work with someone. That is part of this wants to grow, but what, what, why don't you just buy 80, 90, a hundred percent of a women's team and then not bother with them? Would that be an option for you? Yeah, that's, that's also fine. But then we need someone who's gonna run it, who's fully engaged and aligned. But I guess the other thing we do is we do a lot of work with leagues. And so for the context for us is if we're buying a club into a, in a league, we wanna understand the league is aligned to trying to drive the outcome. Um, and we're working with one now where, where there's a number of misalignment positions. And that makes that really hard, even if you're buying a club that you're aligned with. The league is not aligned and we've got a problem. And when you say not aligned, does that mean not ambitious enough? It just means that they don't care enough about women's football. Got it. Okay. Olivia, I'm making job and I'm so sorry. I'm making your job really hard because you're a last on this, but I, I know you've got this Olivia, for you three, you can flatter us by saying that you agree with all of what we say. I'll do that. Uh, so I think one of the first questions I ask, and this goes for any investment in women's sport. Or generally in the space is, um, why do you want me around the table? Um, because alignment is certainly an important part, but for me, I want them to, uh, know or, or be able to tell me why they appreciate what I want to bring, whether it's my network, my experience, uh, not just money. Uh, you know, we're on this shared journey together and I really want to make sure their commitment to having me on board versus someone else is, um, is. Completely there. Uh, I think a real laser focus on data. Um, not just on the performance side of things, but obviously in consumer marketing and how they communicate with their fans. Um, you know, thinking about how they segment their customer base. Um, we've gotta remember that in this sports space we are competing for share of wallet with entertainment, with kind of nights out with the cinema, with, you know, certainly other sports. Um, and, uh, so we need to. Think of, you know, the, um, the fan in terms of, you know, what can we bring to them and their share of wallet at hand, and how do we give them a, a customized experience like they would elsewhere, um, elsewhere in their life. Um, the third one for me is probably how they treat women across the organization. So it's all very well to have a women's team, but if you don't have a sexual harassment policy in place, if you are not articulate about what your, you know, what your, your pay split is by gender, um, if perhaps the facilities that you have for the women, uh, uh, have been very much neglected and under invested in, then uh, that would probably raise alarm bells in terms of, you know, lack of alignment. And, and just thinking about your investment, your purchase essentially of, uh, mavericks, the netball team, it does that mean that equity for you, you would rather go all out a hundred percent rather than 10% as Alexis Hanian has done with Chelsea. Because the London Mavericks is something that I wanted to be really close to, uh, and have very direct involvement with. I obviously wanted to have as much influence around the table to be able to spend time with them and, and nurture the Mavericks and indeed netball to the product. I think it can be, um, if I was looking for football in this country, therefore I'd want something that's complimentary probably with the London Maverick. So I'll be really looking in the London area. Um, so that we can achieve some economies of scale. Um, but then in other ways and kind of indirect investments I've got in soccer and the us, um, I'm quite happy to be a tiny shareholder because the piece of the pie is so much bigger. Uh, but they're, of course, my learnings are a little bit less direct and the, my ability to influence is much smaller. Amazing. Okay. And then Anne onto you, your three non-negotiables. Okay, I'm gonna give you four. Um, but there's some similarity here, which is good. Similar themes. Um, so, you know, like, like Nikki, we certainly care about the talent development and the academy. Um, the ability to grow a global brand. So it could be, there's an interesting, unique storyline that we could tell a story about. Or it's a market, as you can tell, I'm not from here. It's a market that has sort of global recognition and we can u utilize that to drive interest in the club globally. Um, so talent, catchment area, ability to build a global brand, I. Um, the strength of the league we're very interested in whether the league itself is committed, um, and excited and, and building energy and is competitive. Um, parody is interesting to us. Um, you know, leagues with perennial sort of 18 time champions, maybe less so. Um, and then our last lever is, is real estate. Um, when we think from a commercial standpoint, you know, being the landlord and. Head of the tenant is where a lot of the revenue opportunity is certainly much easier for your commercial team to sell signage because they own the inventory, they can sell naming rights, training facility, they can sell naming rights. And so it's a critical piece of the economic flywheel and it's also about being a priority, um, you know, in the women's space. And I think that, you know, a little different. We haven't talked about that yet, but that one's critical for us. Y Yeah. I'm always talking about infrastructure and the, the ability to own and not just be a tenant, but also control it. Someone should make a podcast about that. Maybe, maybe. Um, Matt, you're staring at me like, do you want to come in? I've got loads more. I do. I find it quite interesting. The two of you mentioned academies, stroke player trading in a world where we haven't had the first million pound player transfer in global women's football soccer yet. How, how soon do you think that player trading is gonna be, I guess not necessarily a viable, but like a meaningful revenue stream for a, for a football club? I mean, when we think about investing, we think about. Where can we take something from today? And then in 3, 4, 5, 6 years time, what are we going to be selling onto the next investor by a strategic owner? And what's the story that they're going to be telling and what are they going to be buying into? Is there enough growth for them? And so, yeah, I don't, I, I don't, it's not, it's not the next one, two, or even three years. But I think by the time we're thinking about towards the end of our investment journey, if it is that partnership period, I think that's when it's gonna be. Gonna start to become quite material. Um, yeah. Just to add to that, um, look, player acquisition is a cost lever and a revenue lever. And so, uh, it's important to develop your ecosystem to keep your costs down as, as, uh, transfers rise, like outbound transfers rise. Um, but the other thing is it's such a critical part of the community. When your players are local and getting fans out to matches and getting people to care and also developing like the more broader coaching ecosystem, physiotherapists, you know, front office staff, you know, it's a full life cycle thing for players and for the community and I think it's an important point of engagement. Okay, great. And I'm really interested to know,'cause all four of you have interests and are interested in the kind of the global landscape. Where's, where's hot at the moment would you say, when it comes to. Football clubs, where's the activity gonna be? Where's where are the, the best investments to be made? Who wants to start that one? Yeah, happy to. I mean, we've all seen what's happened in the US with the NWSL and you know, if you speak to some of the recent investors in the recent franchise expansions, uh, you know, at some eye watering numbers, it's because they believe that, you know, in the growth that market. And look, let's never bet against the growth of the US market. You know, we feel it's probably a little bit forward, valued right now. Um, we think there is probably more exciting value opportunity, um, across Europe. Um, and if you had to rank markets, if you only investing a single geography, I think if you're looking at something multi club, then you might think about you had, there's been different factors coming into play. Um, but look, you know, definitely would, um, you know, be. But on the uk, um, for lots of obvious reasons, you know, the, the, the, um, establishment of the, the football here, its heritage, you know, the Premier League and its global reach. So, and you know what we're doing with the separation of the women's. Um, and then to varying degrees, the other sort of what we call sort of big four European markets, so Germany, France, Spain, and Italy, who are in kind of varying stages of. Development, um, ease of doing business, um, et cetera. So, um, in those markets, um, yeah, all, all, all worth looking at, but there's some quite specific factors at play. Um, just focusing on the uk, what I think is particularly interesting is this, uh, like city multi-sport model that we're seeing a bit more of. So, uh, Bristol, were pioneers in that space. Nottingham Forest now have Nottingham Forest Netball as well as football. Birmingham's doing the same. So I would say UK and looking at, you know, city hubs, if we could see more. Kind of scaling or grouping together at different sports entities within cities. I think that becomes really interesting, especially for women's sport where we really need to innovate. Um, we're very new, we're about 90 days in. Just to set expectations here. So because we're dealing with the men and the women's side, um, I'd say the most inbound we get is from parts of Western Europe, Spain, and France, Italy, um, parts of Central Europe. Mexico, A lot of dynamics are changing the Mexican league on the, on the men's side, which will affect the women's side, so that's very interesting. Um, some parts of apac, Richard could speak more eloquently about that than I can, but really we have a global purview. We haven't been as involved in the US for all the. You know, reasons that Nikki described. Um, but that doesn't mean that we don't have conversations there. Um, it's our home country. Uh, we know it very well. Um, my business partner, Corey Woolfolk, was a professional player for 10 years in addition to being a collegiate athlete. And so, um, our network there is quite strong. I've, I've run two clubs in the region, so, you know, we'll see. I'm obviously gonna say Australia'cause that's what everyone has asked me to say. So no, I agree. Australia. Um, and the reason we like Australia, um, is because, um, it's got a heritage of strong football heritage. Uh, football's the number one participation pool for women and girls in the country. Um, and so we think that provides a really nice base. We think it's massively undercooked at the moment. Comedically, badly undercooked. Um, and therefore we think this is a fantastic upside opportunity. Um, and we think that's a marketplace that has strong media value over time in other sports. So we think there's a good commercial outcome there. So that's my Australia pitch. Um, I I, and then when we look up in this part of the world, we, we've looked at and continue to look at, uh, the Champ, I dunno, it's called the Championship anymore. Is it still called the championship? W Thank you. WSL two. Um, and that's, I think because of a value equation. Um, we think there's still a market up here where those can, those teams are undervalued. Um, and, uh, that's, so, that's attractive from our perspective. All things being equal. If you got the right amount of equity, if you had the right amount of, um, alignment from the owner, would you prefer a club that was, it kind of follows on from you, Richard, a club that was on the way up, or a club that was already at the top. And my part B to that is, uh, would the WSL be more investible if it was a closed league? I love closed leagues and I know you, oh God dammit. You have criticized it on your podcast. And, and Australia's a closed league. Um, we like closed leagues because, um, we feel a slightly more secure investment on the protecting on the downside, frankly. Um, uh, we think it's therefore attractive for new money coming in. Um, and um, so that's a positive thing from a, from a. Uh, closely perspective. Um, we probably like the look of teams that have potential more than necessarily at the top, but that's just more the style of investing that we're interested in doing. We're looking to create growth and change and transformation, perhaps more than investing in something that's already kind of maybe where it needs to be. Um, and that's partly because we believe a lot of these teams are nowhere near it. And Olivia said something about data before, which I, we, we would a hundred percent agree with, but actually our issue is that a lot of teams don't have any data. Um, no one's invested in data for women. Um, we're we're often situations where there's no p and l separated. Um, so we think that opportunity and therefore the growth is where, where we're most interested. Um, I wasn't gonna comment on the close vest open, so don't worry. Um, don't want your wrath. Maggie. Uh, I was gonna more comment on sort where do you wanna be and, and. It, it depends on value. So if, if the, you know, let's assume that. Let's just talk about multiples rather than profit. If it's just on a multiple basis, you know, what are you buying in at today? What's your, what's the multiple you're buying in at today? Where do you think you can take it? What's the potential of it in all sorts of ways? And then what are you gonna be selling at? And the problem is, you know, if you'll get what I was talking about, the US paying forward value, that's a kind way of saying overvalued is, you know, you're buying in a value of. You know, two or three years, it says time. Then you have limited upside to your, you know, in terms of returns to your, you know, your exit in, you know, the following three or four years. So, um, we very much think about it from that, and I think, thanks Alexis. Um, with Alexis's, uh, um, investment in Chelsea, I think it does then play to a bit more of the, um, WSL two opportunities, especially given the changes in promotion. Um, and so. Betting on a WSL two team and doing the work to um, you know, take it. That would be inevitably part of your investment thesis to be, to take it up to WSL one. Perfect. Does anyone else want to comment before we move away from football clubs? Matt, can I ask one last question on football clubs before we move on in coming across investment opportunities, how much of a barrier or maybe an opportunity is it that the vast majority of women's football clubs don't own their own? Stadia Physical infrastructure? Well, I own a club that doesn't actually have its own stadium, albeit in netball. But it's, uh, you know, and I understand the pain economically and you know, practically that that brings, but it didn't stop me from making the investment. Um, I think it's a very different. Type of investment investing in the stadium, you know, and you get, you are then speaking with a whole different set of investors. Uh, you know, my real estate investors in the stadium would obviously be, will likely be very different to those who might want to invest in an operational club. Um, and that was kind of gonna be my answer to your last question. Was that there are many different points of intervention or investment in the women's sports or the women's football ecosystem. So, um, you know, it's not all about investing in the club per se, and where it sits in the league. It might be, you know, the rights of a much higher, you know, higher playing club, um, or, uh. Lower, more development club if you are buying the club in, in its entirety. Um, or perhaps you just are a real estate investor and therefore you want to invest in the stadium, you know, that fits your budget at that time. Um, but the most important thing, I guess, is to see it as a long-term investment at whatever point you are looking to intervene in the system. Uh,'cause as much as we'd like to think that women's sport is gonna turn a profit in the next few years, you need people who are really, really committed in the long term. Um, I mean, great answer. Um, for us, it's central to our thesis and it's helpful in that case to look at both genders because then you're the landlord for both teams, and you can create scenarios where the pitch is maintained, the right way. You have the right sort of booking windows and the, and the right fan experience plan for both teams. And so, uh. You know, without a proper stadium plan or a long-term lease and management contract, um, you know, the model can fall apart certainly on the revenue side, but also on the availability to, to both genders. Um, but that said, like, and this is where the case for the US pops up, right? There's a lot more real estate opportunity there than there are in some older, you know, European towns. Um, you know, we just have a bigger country with sort of more suburbs that are growing and, and. Cheaper land deals to be had. We also have a lot more participation in the sport. And so, um, I think that's where the US does become interesting. Um, but I think there's a lot of, like you said, there's a lot of ways to support the ecosystem. Great. Um, a lot of our pitches that are coming up next, there, there are, there are a wide range of different. Types of business within the women's football ecosystem. Um, Olivia, I'm gonna come to you on this one first, if that's all right. Sorry. Just as you sipped water, you've invested in rights holders, you've invested in, um, suppliers, apparel companies. You've got quite a wide investment portfolio. I'm interested to know when you're making an investment into any number of these different businesses within the women's sport, women's sport world, ecosystem, is the mindset any different in terms of. Where you're gonna invest or their parallels from what you said before. In terms of those three negotiables, I'm thinking in terms of stuff like, you know, entrepreneurial ownership or leadership, I guess is, is a key one still, right? No, I mean, that's what I love about the women's sports sector is that um, there are so many similar, you can invest in a number of different businesses and they'll all share pretty much the same pains, uh, but also have many of the same opportunities. And I don't think I've ever worked in a sector. That has such a driven group of collaborative people, it's really quite phenomenal. Um, many of whom of which in this, you know, of whom are in this, uh, room today. Um, but um, yeah, I, I actually go even further in that. I kind of invest in things that are never gonna bring me any money. Uh, so that was my, where I first met Maggie was, uh, through a grant to Lewis Football Club. Sorry, no offense, Maggie. We didn't set out to make any money. Uh. It was, it was a grant. And so I compliment my investment just because this is, I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, but it's what I get the most joy from. Um, we also learn a huge amount that is complimentary to our investments by, um, working with. Partners to whom we kind of give money to, uh, in football and in other sports. And I do find that everything that we invest in across that kind of spectrum of capital in the women's sports ecosystem ends up. You know, being complimentary to your other investments. So I love investing across the ecosystem and working with such an incredibly driven group who, um, are very ambitious and that's why I think the future is in UK women's sport. Any of the rest of you, uh, if you took your eye off a club investment, is there something else you'd be looking at? Yeah. So happy to. So our, our investment thesis is. Investing around the thematic of accelerating women's sports. So equally, relatively broad, looking across teams, leagues, federations, commercial rights and ancillary. But specifically where there is that thematic and where a combination of, um, skills, expertise that we can bring or that partners or other companies within our portfolio can bring. So it goes very much to the, I think to the same point that Olivia's talking about. And just, just to follow up, because you've literally invested into a league just 10 days ago, just announced, what did that feel like? A more sure investment than, for example, looking at another type of business? Yeah, great question. It's um, it's a new league. So in that sense, like, oh God, that's scary. It's a new league. Um. We don't think it has startup risk in the same way as most startups because it's plugging into an ecosystem. So it's a development basketball league, which sits below the WNBA and it's endorsed by the WNBA. So there's a sort of structural need that's clear commercial demand. Um, and it's. We can see, yeah, we can, we can see all of that out the gate. We're backing an operator who already operates ice hockey teams in the same geography. So we think we're, I think if, if we were bought completely new concept of a league in a, as we're seeing, you know, format proliferation, that probably sits a bit outside. Our skillset set. We are looking for things which are a little bit more established that we can then help professionalize and commercialize and unlock growth from rather than betting on kind of new concepts. And we think this falls a bit more into to that category. Um, but yeah, loads of great tailwinds. Everyone knows the data about women's basketball in the us. Um, all those owners and, um, bids for expansion, franchises of the WNBA. At 240 million who've lost out and want to then come and get a little franchise in our league in due course. So, um, yeah, so, so that's some of the reasons we're, we're excited by it. Yeah, I was gonna say league because I mean, we think leagues are still, um, are a great opportunity. I think you've got stronger control. Um, uh, the, I think there's good models, um, in certain leagues where, um, you can also own teams for a period of time that you can then ultimately, uh, sell. Um, and we think that creates a, another underpinning, um, value for perhaps an aggressive multiple at the beginning. Um, so yeah, so we like that, like that space as well. Uh, if anyone's got any questions, grab my attention. If not, I'll jump in. Yeah, go for it. Um, obviously we've got a set of pictures that are coming up in just a moment across a broad spectrum of issues and opportunities. If you had one piece of advice for them, what would it be? And I'm gonna look at you and start with you. Um, choose wisely and, and by the way, sorry, I don't mean for them tonight. I mean just in, in general. Yeah. I think choose wi wisely and be prepared for the process. So if you know you're gonna go to market, make sure you've got your go-to-market information ready. That is not the time to start creating a p and l. It is. You know, which we've had, we've been in a couple of those. So, uh, you know, be prepared and, and choose wisely. Um, you know, there is some scarcity at play here. You, you need to value yourself. And so, you know, get focused on, on finding the right partner and be prepared for that conversation. It's two pieces, but it's free. Um, ask your community, you know, ask for advice. Uh. There's no question, probably too stupid or question that none of us have kind of come across in this room and in our bri in our broader women's sport, you know, football network. So, um, I'd say get smart by collaborating with others and, um, find the answers to the questions from people who are already there and have, have experienced the same thing. Uh, I'd go resilience. Um, it's a marathon, not a sprint. You're gonna get tons of nos. Um, you're gonna get, you're gonna get lots of advice and you're gonna get lots of different advice, and it's great to get advice, but ultimately you've got to find your way through, take on board and have your own. Um, views on what, what it is you're going after. Um, to the point on resilience, it's one of the reasons I, again, love being in this sector. Lots of athletes, ex-athletes, current athletes, um, and resilience is really inherent, um, in them, um, and, uh, you know, to to, to help support you with that resilience. I think, you know, building your tribe and support network around you. Um, I think it's really hard to do things as a solo founder. So ideally having co-founders, um, so you can have your peaks and troughs at separate times. You know, friends, family keeping exercise up, all of those other kind of things to keep yourself somewhat sane along the journey. Um, we see a lot of founders who've got a PowerPoint and an idea, and that's about it. Um, so I would, I would say go get more than that, right? Get either a contract or a, a deal or data, or don't just turn up with a PowerPoint, an idea and think someone's gonna give you plenty of money. Um, uh, and there are a lot of people who do, I've got loads of ideas. We represent some of, I'm really bad at PowerPoint though. I've got loads of PowerPoints. Maybe we can combine them. Uh, question here. Can you introduce yourself first please? Um, Alex Inglot. Um, so I was wondering beyond the kind of what we might call tier A sports like football and basketball, uh, are there other sports that either particularly excite you or particularly worry you? Um. I'm thinking of things like paddle, which is growing, but I'm also thinking about volleyball in America, which has got about to have four leagues battle it out for a market, which for me feels like a recipe to pull momentum for a women's sport because they, they might eat each other up and then, then all fail and that will be a, a sob story, which doesn't help the genuine momentum of women's sports. So, yeah. Just, is there anything outside of, uh, of these. Are the two top leagues that you are excited about or scared about? Well, obviously netball. No, but in all seriousness, that's why I got into netball because my fear was that despite, you know, it being the most played kind of team sport every week, and I think it is just still for women and girls above football. Um, I'm sure I'll be quickly corrected if that's, if that's wrong. Um, you know, it's really an untapped asset and it has this incredible grassroots following. Um, but very little commercialization and professionalization. And I thought in a generation, this incredible sport that so much so many of the women's sport community grow up with, uh, just wouldn't exist because other women's sports backed by men's sports, um, will be, you know, leading the charge. Um, and it's a much lower cost to entry. Uh, because it is a, you know, relatively uncommercialized sport, um, it is, uh, you know, got an incredibly rich fan base who've never really grown up experiencing the live game, uh, or a game that they love being on TV or accessible for them to go and see in their local town or even at Wembley. Uh, so for me, netball has, its, has my vote. Yeah, I hear you on the volleyball situation in the US It's a congested marketplace and I think investors have that concern is which, which league will win.'cause eventually, you know, the, we would anticipate consolidation. Um, I'm looking at LA 28. Shout out to my former employer. Um, and in the incoming sports that are really interesting, you know, u us we don't have a cricket culture, but it's now included in the games. Um, lacrosse, I'm on the board of USA Lacrosse, uh, was never in danger of representing our national team on the field, but they let me in the boardroom. And, um, you know, the participation is picking up. Um, it's a, it's a sport of the Native Americans and the First Nations people of Canada, and so very popular in North America and growing globally. Um, and, uh. Flag football is really skyrocketing with a tremendous amount of investment from the NFL. Um, so those of you who don't follow the American marketplace, that's a story I'd, I'd tune into it. It's a good growth lever globally for the NFL. Um, and so they're backing that pretty hard, and I think it's cannibalizing participation in other sports and with that kind of momentum, cannibalize. Sponsorship dollars. I'm not saying it's all bad, right? It's a high profile sport. It's gonna create opportunity for those athletes, but it's coming and it's coming fast. I guess the only other one I'd add is, um, we quite, we quite, quite like sports that are genuinely dual gender. I. And, and that really is not just, it's a man's sport, a vacuum, women's sport, or it's a women's sport, vacuum man's sport that the dual gender. And, and then, and that also is on trend for what consumers are looking at. So we're, we're interested in, for, at the moment, for instance, endurance sports like triathlon, um, dual gender, you know, really in trend for how people are living in health and wanting to, to, to get out and about. Uh, you can properly back, um, female and male. Uh, solutions. Um, and, and we think it's still got upside commercially. Amazing. That is a wrap. You guys have been so incredibly generous and open and honest or honest. I, I guess, um, with your insight and sharing that with the room, it's not often that people get to speak directly to investors or the people advising investors. So we are. Very, very grateful. So thank you Nikki and Richard and Olivia and Anne. Give them round of applause. You can go and get more comfortable seat. We are surely gonna go into our lightning pitches. So before, before we do, um, Adam from Evelyn Partners is gonna come up and just give us a couple of minutes. Hi. Um, so, so firstly, thanks for having, having us along. Um. Maggie gets a tick, you get a black mark. 99% of people called us Evelyn Partners. We are evil in partners. And you got it right. Do you know what I've been telling them all? I've been telling everyone. It's evil, Evelyn. It's evil, Evelyn. Um, so I think we, we spoke a few weeks ago, um, and probably from that first conversation that we had. Uh, Maggie's values the event, what you are doing, sort of aligned with, with where we are as a business and what we're doing in this space at the minute. So for those of you, most of you who probably don't know what we do, we are a wealth management firm. Some people dunno what that means. Um, I'm a financial planner. I give financial planning advice. I help people sort of plan for their future. Um, and as well as that, once we've got the plan in place, we help people. Sort of where to invest their money. For 16 years, I have worked in the sports and entertainment space. I work with about sort of 70 to 80 athletes across sort of football, music, cricket, boxing, cycling. Um, and for the past five years we've worked across the women's game as well in all of those areas. And obviously we've seen it develop and grow. Um, throughout the time in working with sport, we've always been a big advocate of financial education. So three years ago with Anthony Joshua's Boxing Management Company 2 5 8 Management, we created the first financial education program for boxing. And we run that with the agency across the men and women's sort of athletes. Um, this year. As, as our practice has grown in working within the, in the women's game, um, we've launched, um, various initiatives and sponsorships. So we've just actually, um, a little while ago announced that we've partnered and we're sponsoring the, um, women's Super League netball. Um, league, which would sort of make somebody happy over there. Um, we've, uh, announced a partnership with Sara's Rugby with Across Men and Women's. We announced today that we've got a partnership, um, with Women in Football, and in the next two weeks we are about to, is there somebody here from Women? There you go. Um, there you go. Hi. Hi. And we're about to announce a partnership with one of WS teams. And the Wi Super League team, one of the things that we've done across all of these sports is one of the key components when we found and worked out the partners that we wanna work with is for us to be able to deliver financial education. I. So we'll be going in to the athletes and delivering financial education to them because obviously it's a new, all of these sports are new. Football's obviously new. It's growing massively. It's really exciting. The athletes will be earning more money, so we're providing education to them and a whole host of educations and to help them on their journey so that when they finish whatever sport they're in, they're in a much stronger financial position. And to help them with that transition out of. Um, whatever sport they're in. Also, potentially into our industry as well because we are an under serviced industry as well within the female space. Um, and we are keen to improve that as well. So that is us, that's what we do. Um. Very happy to be involved. Thanks, Adam. Thank you. It's amazing. Thank you so much, Adam.