Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP492 Wedge Issue Live @ The Open Championship
This is a live episode of Wedge Issues, our golf business series recorded at Callaway Clubhouse at The Open Championship this week at the Royal Portrush Golf Club.
Niall Horan: One Direction star and co-founder of Modest Management Company is globally famous and deeply involved in the business of golf.
Inci Mehmet: Former Ladies European Tour pro golfer, now a presenter of Sky Sports award winning golf coverage.
Dan Rapaport: Golf journalist, broadcaster and content creator. Formerly Barstool Sports but now at Pro Shop with the Dan on Golf podcast.
Ben Sharpe: President and Managing Director for Europe at Callaway Golf, leading figure in the business of golf.
Huge thanks to the teams at Callaway and MSQ Sport and Entertainment for all their hard work putting this live show together.
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hello, welcome. Richard Gillis here, Unofficial Partner. for finding us. This is a live episode of Wedge Issues Our golf business series recorded at the Callaway Clubhouse at the Open Championship this week at Royal Portas Rush Golf Club. And it contains some stellar names, you are gonna hear Nile Horan who needs very little introduction. He is. Bringing his global fan base and pointing it at golf. And he's also deeply embedded in the game as co-founder of Modest Management Company. And as you'll hear is deeply knowledgeable and connected. NC Memet is former ladies European Tour Pro golfer, and is now presenter of Skyport Award-winning golf coverage. Dan Rappaport is one of the. Best of that new breed of golf, journalist, broadcaster, content creator, formerly at Barsol Sports, but he's now at scratch with Dan on Golf podcast, which is well worth checking out. I steal from it very regularly. Ben Sharp, president and managing director for Europe at Callaway Golf and has been one of the leading executives across the game of golf for a very long time. Joins us as well. The person you'll hear at the end is Chris Greg, who is marketing director at Callaway Golf. And a huge thanks to the teams at Callaway and at MSQ Sport Entertainment for all their hard work, putting this live show together. It's much appreciated. So here it is, wedge issues live.
Richard Gillis, UP:Thank you very much. You guys wanted to just take a seat? I'm just being, uh, as Chris was talking there, just working out where I'm gonna stand, but. Will, uh, we'll sort that out. I might even go down the front. Robert Kiro, a Silk Star. Google it Kids. That's a millennial, uh, reference. We've got a fantastic panel. Okay. I just need a bit of setup because the setup is the product of golf and the audience or the audiences of golf and. We do a business of sport series and wedge issues because I'm obsessed with, golf. We've created a golf business series called Wedge Issues. The point of it is that it's taking that general sports business conversation and pointing it towards golf, and I think golf's in a really interesting spot. The landscape, the event landscape, the tours. We are here at the Cathedral of Golf, the open championship. My favorite sports event, stop. Fantastic venue, fantastic town. This is the epitome. This is golf of a Big G. It's all about performance and winning. How typical is this week of the golf industry and of the golf product is one question I wanna talk about. we've seen, we're in the live moment. We've got that going on at one on one side. You've got TGL, you've got the tours, DP world PGA tour, L-P-G-A-L-E-T. You've got a load of acronyms. And obviously people say, well, yeah, but I wanna watch Dan Rappaport on YouTube and I want to watch Bryson and I wanna do all of that stuff. So you've got different audiences. That's the point of what we're gonna be talking about today. So Dan, I'm going to start with you'cause you said something. A couple of weeks ago, maybe even a month ago, about golfer's is having a cultural moment. I just want you to just sort of expand on that.'cause I think I'm, I'm stealing that idea basically, and we're gonna say, well, what, what did you mean by that? What do you see? Because I think. sort of our proxy into this audience question.
Dan Rappaport:Totally. Yeah. So I, I mean, I grew up always playing the sport. Um, but I always played with my dad's friends. That was, that was the, who played golf and it was a nerdy thing to do. I, I almost like didn't even wanna tell my friends that I was going to play golf'cause they didn't really understand. And now you've got rock stars and quarterbacks and footballers. Hope, I hope I said that. Okay. Every time I say that, I get a little bit nervous because it's soccer players for me, but I think I did well. Um, it's just cool now, you know, you've got every, every brand seems to be, even brands that aren't historically in the golf space, they're doing collaborations with golf brands. You know, you're seeing brands like Malvin do collaborations with, you know, Budweiser and doing collaborations with, you know, companies that you would just never associate with golf. So, you know, I think golf is very unique because if, if you look at football or if you look at basketball. The, the fans of the sport are typically just fans of the professional game. Um, you might play in a Sunday league or whatever it is, but golf is so different because there's this sort of professional golf aspect of it, and then there's you, you actually play the sport. So there's a much more intimate relationship I feel like, between a golf fan. It can sort of gets inside you more, more than I, I would say the other sports do because you can actually, you can actually do it and so, you know, everyone's gonna watch the best players in the world play Royal Portas rush this week and you can go and do it. And you can, you can do that same thing. You're not gonna get onto the floor of crypto arena and shoot three pointers. So, yeah. Um, it's, uh, it's everywhere. Everyone's a golfer now, and my friends are, you know, hitting me up all the time now, wanting me to take them out there. I say, you gotta be able to break a hundred. That's my, that's my barrier. Uh, if you can break a hundred, we can go play. If not, get a little bit better. Um. That's not because I'm like a hardo or anything, it's just, you know, a lot of people are out here tough love. You gotta, you gotta have a rule. You gotta have a rule. So, yeah, I just, I just think, you know, anecdotally, uh, I don't know the numbers as well as some of, you know, my, my panelists here, but I, I can say from my personal experience that the game, and when I say the game, like you said, uh, that that doesn't just mean the professional game, the entire sport, um, just feels hotter and cooler, I think, than ever before.
Richard Gillis, UP:Okay. Right. Ben Sharp, what'd you think about that? Is that your lens into that question?
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:Yeah, I mean, I think, um, the world's changing fast, isn't it? And I think golf has changed very quickly over the course of probably the last 10 years, and certainly since COVID, where we had an opportunity to bring a new audience in, bring new players, um, at the same time. I believe we are probably the sport that tries to determine how people can enjoy our game more than anybody else. And I think that's something we need to think about, something we need to do differently if we want to stay relevant going into the future. Um, I think the way that people consume media, the way people consume. Information the way people can play. There's so much choice now, and I think we've got to put golfer first rather than putting ourselves as in the industry first. And I think the people who embrace that will win. And I think the people who will still think, no, I'll tell you what to do and what you can wear and how you can behave, I think they'll become dinosaurs very quickly.
Richard Gillis, UP:Did your job used to be easier and now it's hard? Is that what we're saying? There's a, there was a, I, I can see straight lines in the past. You know, I can see pro shops stocking stuff. I can So Callaway running right straight through that line and now it feels much. Up. Well, I think
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:my job is as easy as the team I have around me, and I've got a great team, so my job's easy. Good answer. There you go. That's a,
Richard Gillis, UP:that's a, that's a chief executive answer, isn't it? That's a fantastic C-suite answer.
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:Um, but no, I, I think, um, I think it's more fun because I think it's more varied. Um, you know, it, it's interesting we were. Looking at our business the other day, and we are looking at some of our trading policies and some of our trading policies dated back to sort of 2000. And there's a lot of things happened since 2000, like the internet's happened since 2000. So pretty, pretty big thing. Yeah, it's very, it's very popular, the youngsters. So, um, but the pace is changing all the time. And you think about, you know, personalizing a bag, you know, we didn't used to do that. You think about sort of customization. Everybody wants to feel like they're important rather than this just homogenous thing that, you know, you're a number or we're gonna treat everybody the same. And so to do that, you have to be agile, you have to act with speed. You can't just think like, this is my course and I'm gonna do this for the next three years because you'll, you'll die. And so that's the great thing about it. And looking at all of the new media channels and all of the, um, you know, people who are coming into the sport and creating a sort, a newness and a freshness to what we do. That's the fun part. Is it harder? No. Is it different? Yes. Is it more varied? Yes. And so therefore, I think it's a lot more engaging and, and there's a lot, so many more things that we can do, and one size doesn't fit all.
Richard Gillis, UP:Okay. Right. NC Meme, I've been watching you in your work on the live at the Range. It's fantastic. It's really, I, I love it. What Sky's doing this week. I wanna just get into that because what does Sky think about when they think about golf and audiences now?
Inci Mehmet, Sky Sports:It's actually quite interesting because we had a whole day, uh, on a audience awareness course. Um, because I think understanding who your audience is is actually really important and kind of as former golfers going into the media industry, none of us are necessarily trained in how to communicate this very complex and ever evolving moving game. So, yeah, fundamentally understanding your audience, but also understanding that we're not trying to necessarily reinvent the wheel here. Uh, I think it's all about evolving. Um, you know, understanding that we're trying to target our next generation, a younger audience, but not also, you know, leaving out the traditionalist. Uh, you know, we talk about diversity, uh, in terms of our sort of production. That doesn't mean male or female, black or white or whatever. It means having the very tones in our production, you know, likes of you and Murray, uh, you know, from a few years ago. He's, he's iconic. You know, the way he can tell stories is amazing. I mean, we have a WhatsApp group chat within Sky. We had to send a voice message of who are kind of outlandish picks and, um, off the chart picks would be. And I just love listening to his voice'cause you just cannot get bored of it. But then it's also important to target that kind of modern. Ever moving audience as well. So how can we stay relevant? How can we stay fresh? Uh, so yeah, for me it's very much not staying stale, forever evolving, having varied formats of the game. Um, you know, we've got examples of Liv, TGL like you touched upon. Uh, and yeah, so it just injecting that kind of shorter format content because I think, let's face it, our sort of generation, we've got very short attention spans. So it's very much just kind of targeting everyone and really understanding who your audience is because it's pretty, pretty varied now
Richard Gillis, UP:There's a sort of blurring between you two in terms of, you know, again, if I use you as a route into mainstream media and sky television, the tournament you and Murray calling it on the, you know, down the stretch and that basal world is blurring. Yeah. So, I dunno how that is gonna play out. And it's quite interesting watching Sky'cause there's sort of play, there's a line there, there's a graying of that area. Yeah. You gotta have Peter Finch on, you know. Wandering around. Yeah.
Inci Mehmet, Sky Sports:I think if you look at a few professional golfers, right? Less so these days, because I think more pros understand the power of social media. Let's say it's digital marketing, right? So back, let's say go back, uh, maybe three to five years, there'll be some pros who wouldn't really care about social media, and I'm sure a lot of their managers are now really hounding and the importance of that. So you would have the likes of, I'm not gonna name names of players, but they'll have 10,000 followers. And you've got the likes of Andy Murray, who's got nothing to do with. Golf. But you know, Callaway's a great example of this where we've actually really implemented the, on the course with series. So if you haven't watched it, please like and subscribe. We'll see you there. Um, but it's, it's actually inviting people onto the channel that have that leverage. And I've always said golf is such an incredible demonstrator of this, where it does bring everyone from different industries into this game. You know, now on the panel right now is, is a great example of that. And you're probably sick of people saying this about you, but it's. We invite it so much. It's so welcoming. It's so fresh. It allows more people to set eyeballs into this awesome traditional game that is modernizing for sure. And it's that balance as well, because a lot of social media, you've got the kind of clickbait stuff. Yeah. So how do you kind of juggle clickbait, even like, you know, the likes of Sky, A mainstream production company will try and get eyeballs somehow. So how do we not, you know, we, it is that tone as well, isn't it? Yeah. Getting that right. Not patronizing the viewers, because if you are. Subscribing to Sky, they've probably got a decent knowledge base, but if you're talking about growing the game and they don't already watch golf, how do you tap into them as well? So it's, it's kind of thinking of all of that. So, I mean, your job, I think it's impossible, but we've gotta try,
Richard Gillis, UP:I think let's bring Nile in and, and we need to at Modest Golf, but there's, I, what I like about when, when you appear at a golf course. If there's a whole industry of people on, there's a LinkedIn world, they say It's okay. Golf Nile likes golf, and therefore everything's gonna be okay. He's gonna connect, you know, all our problem, all our problems are solved. You know, when you're at the, the par three at the Masters. That's fantastic. You know, imagine, imagine the audience. Just take us inside what it looks like this, this conversation about audiences.'cause you must know a lot about audiences. I
Niall Horan:dunno. A thing or two. Yeah, no, but it is, it's, it's been so interesting, like I've always loved the game, grew up playing it. I, I grew up in a time where, in a country where it was, it was a bit more accessible I feel. Um, looking up to people like McGinley and Harrington and Clark. It was having Tiger on TV on a Sunday. It was very easy to get into the game. In my head, it was cheap to join the golf club. I just fell in love with it straight away. And then as I got older, I kind of did stop playing in my early teens and then took it back up again. And then like when we'll get into modest golf in a bit, but I was just like. Getting into the game, being around the game, being mates with some of the players and spending a bit of time around the tour. Just seeing the demographic change over the years has been a very interesting thing. And, and now like we go into the, the golf clubs and they're, they're even screaming at me out there. I, I can't even hit Seven Iron. Um, but like, it's, it's, it's been really interesting to watch the game grow and I've always kind of like said like, I've got followers online and if I could tap into. 1% of them and, and try and drag them along for the ride into the game of golf. You know, that's more people playing the game or watching the game or watching these guys in the sky or watching Dan's thing. Like the more people we get into it that way, the better. And as, as Ben said, one size doesn't fit all. And I, I understand like the, the blur, but that's okay. Like every other industry. Is working. You know, I'll sit down for 90 minutes and watch a, a football match, or there's people in America who will watch a baseball game for hours or a cricket game, a whole test week, but they'll also then flip through their phone and watch the best moments and, and things like that. And as Ben said, one size doesn't fit all. And it's just been, it's been a really interesting evolution.
Richard Gillis, UP:Let's, let's just talk about modest'cause it's, there's, there's bits in it that I, I hadn't realized. So just let's, what is it? You know, take us through what the setup was, what the idea behind the business is.
Niall Horan:Well, it was 2014 or 15, early 2015, I think. Um, and just being around the tour again, just like seeing it and hearing so many conversations. The conversations on, on the, the range, which as we know is a very, very small place of young lads that are young lads and girls who are, are turning pro and don't really know where they're playing on a Thursday, on a Tuesday morning. I just, I, coming from music and how well I've been managed and the team that I've had around me for the years, I could never wrap my head around it. Um, so to, I just felt like there was an opportunity and knowing a few people in the game, like Mark McDonald, my business partner, um, who'd worked with, who's worked with Ben over the years, um, it just felt like there was an opportunity to really like, nurture and look after these young people.'cause. Turning pro is not an easy thing like financials, getting around the world, um, concentrating on your game while doing so. I just felt like there was an opportunity to really take what we have in the music business of travel teams, social teams. Commercial teams and just wrap our arms around and you know, so
Dan Rappaport:it's full service.
Niall Horan:Full service, yeah. Yeah. And, and try and try and take away any worry, any encore. Like they let them hit the ball, put in the ball quicker than everyone else and we look after the rest,
Richard Gillis, UP:which is quite, before I get Brendan it, the difference between, it's interesting you've mentioned there about the music career and the management in music and management in golf or sport. What is the difference? Is that, do you notice a difference?
Niall Horan:Uh, not really. You're dealing with people, you know. It's, it's about, it's, it's all about people and, and I'll give my CEOA answer now, you know, it's all about the team. We have, you know, like we, it is, it is. Yeah. I've got your back. He's learning. It's all right. Learning from the
Richard Gillis, UP:greats.
Niall Horan:Yeah. There's not, it is all about people who're doing a dif they're doing different professions, but it's, it's all about how you, how you deal with people and Yeah. And the nurturing that goes on behind the scenes to allow them to. Like at any business to allow them to go on and do what they do best.
Richard Gillis, UP:Yeah.'cause we are, we're sort of asking, to your point earlier, we're asking sports people to become entertaining. We're creators and we're pushing them in that direction. I say we, but, you know, there is a, that, that's the incentive at play. But Bryson, who's done it brilliantly, and you can see that that's, that's what's happening. I wonder what the implications of that are. So Ben, you were gonna jump in?
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:Well, yeah, I mean, I, I think just listening to, um, Nile talk about Modest, and I know, uh, Marky Mack pretty well. Um, I just wanted to commend you for what you've done because I think everybody in this room remembers the guy gave him a shot. And I think sometimes in the corporate world, talent and in music and whatever. Some people who are talented don't get that chance. And so to give people a chance, I think is really inspiring. I also just, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I, you know, I think, um, you're starting to see the fruits of your labor now, and it was a tough road to take. Mm-hmm. But it was a great road to take. So, so well done to you.
Dan Rappaport:Yeah. I was just wanted to talk kind of. Tough tail off what Nile was saying about accessibility and growing up. I just wrapped up an incredible golf trip throughout Ireland and it was, it was very eye-opening to me coming from the states. Just the, the difference in accessibility and in golf culture. You know, over here it feels like you join a club to sort of get into it and, and you, you find this community. Whereas in the States, joining a club is almost like the last step on your golf journey because it's so expensive. And so, you know, my, my friends who were picking up the game, they wouldn't even think about joining a club because where I live in, in California, yeah. It's, you know, over a hundred thousand dollars to join a golf club. And then you're paying at least, at least a thousand, 1500 in dues per month. So you're thinking about.$20,000 of post tax income, then you gotta pay the caddy when you're out there. And, you know, I was going through, through Ireland and, and first of all, all the best courses in the country you can play, which is not a thing in the United States. And the thing that maybe struck me the most was the difference in the sort of caddy culture. You know, caddies over here are members of the golf clubs that, that they caddy. They're, they're tour guides. And I couldn't believe that, you know, caddies in, in the US. At a lot of places, they're almost treated as, this gonna sound a little worse than I really mean it, but like a second class citizens, they have their own separate entrance. There's a caddy barn. And they meet their players in the first tee and then they go out there. Whereas here, you know, I played at the island, uh, down in Dublin, which is amazing by the way. Um, our caddy in the morning played in the medal competition. He's a member. Then he caddied for us in the afternoon. Then he came with us. In the clubhouse for a beer afterward and then told us that he's also a member of Portas Maroch. And I was just thinking, imagine if you were in, in Los Angeles and you're, you're gonna play Riviera and the Caddy played Riviera in a metal competition in the morning, and then he joins you in the clubhouse for a beer after. And then he tells you that he's also a member of LA Country Club.
It just would
Dan Rappaport:never happen. So we're, we're behind. We're behind when it comes to that stuff. And I think there's, there's a bit of ego involved in the sport in the United States. That doesn't seem to be a ca the case over here. I think there's an ego about, you know, how exclusive is your, is your country club, how far do you carry the ball? You know, what's your handicap. It's just, it's just, it's much more communal over here than it is, and, and I think we're, we're, we're slowly getting there. As more people come into the game, there are these sort of clubs that are popping up, but they're not really attached to a golf course. So you'll have a men's club and they go play different pri, different public courses every week, because that's the only way that people can really find this community because it's just still so damn expensive in our country. Yeah. Yeah. Welcome
Inci Mehmet, Sky Sports:to Europe buddy.
Richard Gillis, UP:Dan, we have better, better weather though, I will say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, TGLI don't, I don't, I sort of get it intellectually. I understand it, but I don't feel it. Is that, uh, is it just a distance thing from here? What's happening there and what's your, you are embedded in that. I was very skeptical going in, um. It felt like almost a couple months before I was like, is this even really gonna happen? Because, I mean, literally, literally the bubble burst, right? The, the, the stadium itself, it was supposed to launch a year earlier and it burst. Yeah. And then they had to build this, this arena and I just didn't understand, but. Once you see it, it's basically, it's a, it's part golf and it's, it's a content studio that building, uh, SoFi center. There's ca cameras absolutely everywhere. It's perfectly lit. And so I think it was the PGA tour's opportunity to. Ize itself. There's so many. Great word. There were so many. Yeah. I kind of, I don't know if that's a real word, but it should be. Is that your word or are you gonna own that? I just,
Dan Rappaport:first time I ever said it, first time I ever said it, it's brilliant. But it felt good. It felt good coming out.
Richard Gillis, UP:This feels like, this feels like Rappaport IP being made up in real time.
Dan Rappaport:But I think, you know, so, so Liv comes on the scene and their whole thing is golf, but louder. Right. And they're gonna have music playing and it's gonna look very different and it's gonna appeal to this younger audience. But I think one of the things, they were kind of in the middle. Because they're trying to do this golf, but louder thing. But they're also trying to, you know, we're elite competition and we've got the best players in the world. And so it's kind of trying to walk this line that I think is a very tricky line. TGL, you wanna talk about golf, but louder all the way on the golf, but louder side, it's not trying to be, you know, oh this is, this is the the be all, end all of competition. This is the tip top of the sport. It's a bit of fun. And I think the PGA tour with TGL is sort of. Flanked live on both sides because you've got the very, uh, sort of traditional 72 hole stroke play events where there's no music playing and they're wearing pants and it has that traditional aspect. And then they've gone on the other side way even past how far Liv has gone with, it's not even on a golf course, but it is a, you know, a golf property with the best players in the world on ESPN, which is massive in our country. Yeah. Um, so I do get it. I think it's, it's very, it's very clip based, which is, you know, something we were talking about in the back, you know. A lot of the content that I make, we don't necessarily get the live audience that, you know, a sky would get. But we think about it in terms of clips because those clips can pay the bills because audience is in different places. It's not just linear television anymore. So we can go to an advertiser and we can say, we got this many eyeballs. And yeah, it wasn't on linear television, but, and eyeball is an eyeball to some extent, so I, I, I do understand it. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see how it evolves to get some, hopefully some, some ladies teams involved and. You know, it'd be, I think it'd be cool if they added more. I think it was a bit of a hassle with the guys with travel this year having to go all the way to Florida, because they were, I think they were told also it was all gonna be on Monday night. Some of them were moved to Tuesday. You had some guys that were just, it was a lot. So, but I think also that that arena is replicable, I think. You put one of those in Vegas, or you put one of those in Scottsdale, people would rent it out for a bachelor party or stag Do, as you guys say. Uh, I, I think corporations would, would rent it out for, for a night out, because it is sort of the closest you can get to playing golf without being on a golf course. In c You a fan, do you? Why'd
Inci Mehmet, Sky Sports:you come to me? You, you can say no, it's okay. Um, in all honesty, um, I've not watched an awful lot of it. Um. What do I think of TGLI? I I admire change. I admire effort. I think it's really important in any industry that you are open-minded. So, you know, I, I do admire that. I think with, I'm gonna take a slight swerve here. Go for it. Uh, with live golf, for instance. Yeah. Starting off with that. I've not watched an awful lot, but as a concept, I get it because it's still golf. I know you're not the biggest fan of lev.
Richard Gillis, UP:I like, so just to explain that I, I'm not, but who cares what I think in terms of, you know,
Dan Rappaport:I care.
Richard Gillis, UP:I'm not, yeah, yeah. Um, I'm obviously not the target audience, but I got the, we had Sean Bratches on, who was one of the architects of it initially. He left a week after coming our podcast, which I don't think was related to coming on the podcast. It's the death of a career to come on the Unofficial Partner podcast. Sorry to break it to you. Um, there's a. The idea, I thought there's a lot to like about it teams international rather than America. The absence of women was weird at the beginning, particularly for Saudi money. I, I thought that was a really strange miss, but I got it and I understood it. I just don't like the execution of it. I just don't, you know, it's not engaging. I,
Inci Mehmet, Sky Sports:I do think on that though, also with TGL because there's so money, so much money that's kind of backing these organizations, these concepts. I think it's very easy to forget. It's still a startup. So for me it's, it's still having that open-mindedness of understanding the concept on what they're trying to achieve. It's only been, what, I mean, couple of years. Yeah. Season. Uh, so I think it's also worth giving it some time. So I think course, just going back to the original point of that, open-mindedness of, you know, this game evolving. I, I just think that's just a small injection of it that has the opportunity to grow. But obviously you're involved in over to you both, both parties.
Niall Horan:Yeah. No, I, I, I'm involved with Boston Common. What I just like about it is, first of all, what, apart from the travel issues that the boys were having last season, they, they do really enjoy playing in it. And, you know, I'm sure you've had a chat with Fitzy and that it's a, it's, and you can't fake that, you know? No. You're, you're micd up. You're on camera for an hour live on tv. You are the host.
Yeah.
Niall Horan:You know, and, and they're, they're literally, they really enjoy it. And the more we can do to get these lads out of them, like we're a, we're a, we're a brand right now. You know, they're, they're trying their best to get these boys, you know, to, to activate the brand. And, uh, if you enjoy it, you'd wanna do it. And I think that that's what the biggest thing for takeaway for me was, was seeing how much they loved it. Like, alright, should be maybe home resting on a Monday night after a long week. But they're, they, Shane Lowry had the best time of his life, but it looks bit, and, uh, yeah, that's, that was my biggest takeaway in terms of what happens next with, it was like, right, if they're excited. You know, they've obviously got skin in the game, but at the same time, they're excited about activating the brand and it's, it should make for a good season if they, you know, obviously they figure out the flow of things. As you say, it's a startup, so it's gonna take its time to reel itself out. But, um, yeah, it's, I think it's an exciting prospect.
Richard Gillis, UP:Yeah. Ben, do you like it?
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:Yeah, I mean, I've, I've been involved from pretty early part of it, and Mike McCauley's, a friend of mine, Andrew McCauley, who's the chief technical Officer, used to be a colleague of mine, um, top tracer involved in, in the event. Um, look, listen to what we're saying. You know, it's finding its feet. They're looking to look at a different way of doing it. We're not saying it's a dead duck, right? We're saying that it's got, it's, it's got a future. And so it's a question of what that future is and, you know, and how we ize it. Yeah. Yeah. I, but I think the, I mean, you've learned anything today, but I think, but I think the, uh, you know, it's, it's a content theater. I think from the, the first season it was raw, it was interesting, it was different and it will find its feet and what that content will be in the future, we will figure out and the fan will dictate what they want to go and see. And it will morph into something that I think has a place.
Dan Rappaport:And I think it's also a way to keep Tiger Woods in the sport, you know? Yeah. I, uh, you know, we all know Tiger's Health struggles the last. Four years or whatever it's been since the accident. He hardly plays golf anymore. And, but he still, I think, you know, feels a, a sense of, of duty to, to be involved and yeah, it's great when Tiger comes on a broadcast and talks for a couple minutes and says something kind of funny. But it's different when you can watch him out there in competition and, and, you know, interacting with other players. And so. You know, anytime Tiger's team plays, there's a bump in in viewers because he's, he's still Tiger Woods and I think it's a really, uh, unique opportunity to, to showcase him. Uh, and I think that's one of the reasons why the first season did so well in ESPN.
Richard Gillis, UP:There's a, it's a really great point that, and the other lens is the money likes it as well. So, you know, private equity, billionaire class. A lot of money going into the franchise, both, you know, across Liv and TGL. And because there's something investible, there's a unit, you know, a team of franchises sort of easier to put the, the money in and then build and it doesn't cost
Dan Rappaport:$10 billion. I mean, the Lakers and the, do you know, all these sports franchises, traditional sports franchises in the US are the, the valuations are out, you know, outta control. And it seems like all the, the. Maybe not the richest Americans, but the next tier, uh, are all buying like second division football teams because they can get their hands on it and they can, they feel like there's actually an opportunity there to grow something.'cause if you get promotion, there's all this money. So it's an opportunity for people to have skin in the game. And, and I think ultimately, you know, professional sports, it's, it's sort of like fantasy sports for rich people when they wanna buy a. They wanna be as close to it as possible. Yeah. And I think it's an opportunity with these franchises. There's just, like you said, there's more, there's more entities for these people to, to have some skin in the game.
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:I, I think TGL have done a really nice job with the teams. You know, I think the teams mean something. Mark Levert, the Boston Common, I think, you know, he's, he's really looked at the detail in terms of, you know, what's our identity. Yeah. And, and the, the pe the, the members of the team mean something to that team and, and I think they build up a pretty cool brand. Arthur Blank, the same. His team. So I think they've done a nice job there.
Richard Gillis, UP:Yeah.
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:What about the live team brands? I think the TGL guys have
Richard Gillis, UP:done a really nice job. Fantastic. Well, there I was listening to, George Pine, who's obviously a prominent, I say obviously he's a sport. He's a quite a prominent investor. Well very prominent sports investor, brewing sports capital. And it was quite interesting. He did a a little bit on TG and why he likes it. You know, again, why private equity likes this model and why that's an incentive in the marketplace and these things are developing. A couple of things. He said it's asset light, which talks exactly to what you just said about, okay, it's this thing and I can see it moving around and you can start your own one. The other one was betting and I think betting. Golf, I think is quite an interesting, and I, this is a bar stool question'cause I think there's a, there's a strong link in there, but it's something we don't talk about. He, he mentioned micro betting around TGL, but it, it feels like the, again, the existential question for the sports business is. What happens when Sky stopped writing checks? Okay, what happens when the broadcaster goes away and where's the money gonna come from? And if you think about it, where the billions going into investing in the assets teams against the backdrop where we are not watching television. And my daughter has never watched a live thing of anything. Okay? So if that stops, then where's the money coming from? And then you go to, it's Ben Sharp. And the Callaway budget is gonna come in there. How do we get more money from the brand marketing community? And the other one, well, one of the others is betting. What do you think about that in terms of a scenario? Because that it felt like, okay, well that's a slight door. Private equity people are, you know, there's a clue in the name. They're private, they don't talk very much, but sometimes they reveal things, which I think are quite interesting. So what, what do we think about that?
Dan Rappaport:Yeah, so I was at Barstool for two years, uh, just to be clear, left in September of last year. So down on golf. Go subscribe, like, and subscribe. It's my new. Um, but no, it was a very, it was very interesting, uh,'cause when I was at Barsol, it was, it was owned by Penn Gaming, which is a, a, a gambling company. Yeah. And, uh, you know, gambling is a way to monetize fan interest, a direct way to monetize fan interest. You've got, you know, you. It's always been legal over here. It was not in the States until just a couple years ago. So, you know, you've had a, you have a bar full of people who are either really invested because they're a fan of the team, or you've got a, you know, some guy who thinks that he knows who's gonna win, uh, he thinks he's a pundit, and then now instead of them just. You know, kind of BSing to their friend about it, they can actually put their dollars on it. It's, it's been very interesting seeing the gambling companies start to get into the content space. So Penn with Barstool yeah. Didn't really work out because with, uh, an investment from a gambling company comes tons of regulations. And as everyone in this room, uh, who's consumed any Barstool content, knows sometimes, um, not the best at following rules. And so there were a lot of instances where, you know. They would say like, you know, put your, put your mortgage on this bet as a joke. But yeah, you can't say that. You can't say that. Yeah. Um, even if it's in jest, you can't say that. You can't say, you know, they, they, they bar still had for a while had a, had a, a parlay, like a, a bet that you could make on Penn that was called a can't lose parlay, which is like, you know, obviously you're punchy, you're gonna lose, um. So, yeah, they, they, they, but they have, they have the cash. They have the money. And so you're seeing a lot of, you know, uh, one of the big Barstool podcasts, you know, goes over to FanDuel. Um, and, and so yeah, it's, it's, uh, they, they've, and there's, you know, FanDuel TV and, and DraftKings is getting into the content space, so it, it's gonna be fat. I'm glad I'm not. On that side of the business because I, I don't know how it's gonna shake out in, in 20 years. Right. Are we, are we watching the open on DraftKings? Are we watching the open on, on FanDuel? Because that's where the money is. It's, it's definitely possible. Are those companies gonna then partner with like a sky, and I know they do already, but in a more sort of significant way. So it's still so early in the us you know, there's a lot of states where sports gambling isn't legal, so there's stuff that they, you know, draft. I don't think DraftKings could, could be like an official distributor of, you know, the NFL because. It's not legal in a lot of different places. So yeah, it's not the sexiest answer, but no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna have to see how it plays out, but that's, that's where the money's going.
Richard Gillis, UP:The majors, it feels like the majors been elevated in the whole scheme of things. Interesting. Ben, you know, the majors as a strategy. What do you think about the landscape now?'cause it feels like this in amongst. Tours and you've got the, you know, we don't need to rehearse your, the conversations that everyone's having about the tours and live and are they, aren't they and where the, what they're trying to do. But above that, this feels like this event and the others feel like they're elevated. Is that your sense?
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:It's about the product. Last week was very good cause we had Scottish Shef Blue, we had Rory McElroy, we had Sander playing in at Tournament. And then the best, were playing against the best. And we wanna see the best playing against the best. And when they don't, audiences go down. And when they do, audience go up. Because what's happened over the last few, few years where the sport has said, well, you can't do that and you can do that, the majors wins because it's the only time when the best play against the best, and that's what we want to go and see, right? Because you wanna see the champion is the best golfer, not just the best golfer in that league or in this area. They wanna see the best.
Dan Rappaport:And they've stayed above the fray. And I think it's a strategic decision. One of the things that, you know, I think was a, a sort of a talking point before these guys went to live was, oh, are you, are you gonna still get to play in majors? Are you still gonna get to play in majors? You know, you're not gonna get world ranking points. You know, the major's gonna ban guys. There's like 18 guys from live in the field this week. We're three years into this. They're all ranked whatever they're ranked in the world rankings, which are, you know, completely irrelevant now basically. And, uh, you know, three years on that, that threat hasn't come to life. And I think it's because of what he talked about. Why would the majors. Wanna ban someone, why would the majors, you know, go all out in, in support of the PGA tour knowing that it will damage their own products? So they've stayed above the fray, and you could argue that from a competition perspective, they've never been more important and never been more looked forward to.
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:I mean, you know, from our perspective, what are we trying to achieve? We want to get the right eyeballs on our brand. And so we are gonna partner with people and with organizations who can help us do that. And you know, we looked at the data, um, we looked at what the golfers were saying, and, and the majors is where it's at. And you know, this, this year we've seen a tangible increase in the, um, engagement with our brand. You know, um, business is pretty good right now. I mean, the sun is shining, so that does help, but just, just. Really showing up when the eyeballs of the world are on your sport. Yeah. I think is important.
Richard Gillis, UP:Okay. Right. Very aware that there is a, the sun is shining and one of the great courses in the world is just over the road, and we wanna all get over there. Any, if you've got a question, just make yourself known. Yes. I'll come to you. I'll come to you. This is exciting.
Hi. Um, I got a question about the grant ver, um, invitation to the Barracuda and his rejection of that invitation and the whole media rights issue there. How do you see that sort of playing out in years to come? It, it sort of feels like golf at the moment, so it feels like golf at the moment's, going through kind of a period of massive sort of transformation what do you see the future kind of interaction between YouTube and traditional media?
Dan Rappaport:Yeah, it's, uh, so for those who don't know, grant Horvatz, one of the biggest golf YouTubers. He was, uh, offered a sponsor's invitation into the Barracuda Championship, which is the opposite field event that's being played this week on the PGA tour. Uh, and he said no, because the PGA tour wouldn't allow his people to inside the ropes to film. During competition. Um, I, I sort of understand it from both sides. Um, you know, from Grant's perspective, it's like, well, the whole reason that we're doing this is, is like YouTube, you know, why would I, why would I go if I'm just gonna be like another Tour Pro on there? And, and I understand the tour from a media rights perspective, it's a, it's a can of worms that they don't want to open. I think both tours are trying to engage with it. Um, you know, the PGA tour and, and. Know the company that I'm with, ProShop, we, we put on the Creator Classic, so we have those, uh, we had one last year at the Tour Championship. We've had two so far this year. One at TPC Sawgrass, one at Philly Cricket for the Truist, and we've got one more coming for the Tour Championship again, where we have these YouTubers come and play the day before on a PGA Tour golf course and then live with the duals. They've, they've invested heavily in that and they've, they've had a couple already so far this year, so it's gonna be interesting because. There is, I think with the PGA tour, and especially with this new CEO coming in, Brian Ola, you know, one of the things he said a lot in his interviews, his introductory interviews were, you know, at the NFL we were always obsessed with, with, uh, the competition and they felt like the competition was the core piece. And so I think what the PGA tour in not allowing grant. S you know, to be a sort of a special case is, is really a doubling down on the competition aspect of it and, and saying yes. You know, there, there is all this incredible ways that people are getting into the game, but our product specifically, I think is better if we are viewed as the ultimate competition. It is a, it's a, it's a tricky line. It's a fine line.
Richard Gillis, UP:No, what you think about that, that, that whole sort of creator space.
Niall Horan:Yeah, I, I think it's amazing. I think first of all, Grant's a great golfer and he's great. He's a great, uh, content creator. He is a great watch. A lot of them are, to be honest, um, I actually didn't know that. I didn't, I haven't read up on that happened yesterday, right? Well, I was watching golf yesterday. Yeah. No, it's, it's, I I, I get exactly what Dan's saying. I do. I see it from, from both, from both sides. The
Richard Gillis, UP:whole YouTube thing, and I say the YouTube thing just in terms of, what we need from golfers now are they trained to do this? Or is that part of what being a manager is now you okay. You create a, create a school.
Niall Horan:Well, you know, it is person by person. It's a case by case basis. Yeah. Some of the guys want to get really involved in it. Some don't wanna do it all. You know, you have to, you have to manage them individually. Um, obviously. Some of the, the brands we work with, there's a lot of added value in that too, you know, and, and in trying to do your, you know, your contracted pulses and then doing stuff outside of that and being part of videos and stuff like that. And we've had, you know, like say for instance, Jimmy Bullard's, um, and Tubes is Channel. We've had some of our players play on that and, and they love that. And you know, they get a kick outta that kinda stuff. It's needed. Like I, I watch a lot of YouTube golf. I, I'm a bit of a, like a, personally, I'm like a traditionalist. I'd sit for four days and watch the whole thing, listen to you and Murray and NC and everyone like, and I love it. But I also do spend a lot of time watching YouTube and watching Dan's stuff and watching all the YouTube golfers. And as we said very early on in this, like one size, this fit all, it's, it has, there has to be a bit of everything for, for people to watch and have you have a choice in that. I
Inci Mehmet, Sky Sports:do have a question though. Um, because as golfers, rightly or wrongly, I do believe that they're entertainers. And it's really interesting with your background from the entertainment space, and I will openly say that your talent a your guys are awesome. Whenever we do go up to them, they always say yes. And so I guess my question is, there are a few rules set on the tour. Uh, you know, we need to get. Yes, before approaching players. Mm-hmm. Which I understand because you need to manage it to a certain degree, but then if you look at the F1 model for instance, yeah, it's compulsory, right? Yeah. And so, you know, I guess it's a bit of a topic'cause Rory did reject some media of recent. So should it be compulsory or should they have the choice in golf, in your opinion, that, because all your players do say yes and it's brilliant.
Niall Horan:See, that's the thing. I, we come from a place where a lot of, as you say, a lot of our players are j are just kind of, that, that kinda character. And I guess we do, we've just signed good characters that wanna be, that wanna be involved. And, but no, like myself and Mark will always push, you know, like, there's, there's value in this. You know, they're not, it's not just, they're not just there for a laugh. The media, like, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna help. Get eyeballs on you as a, as a golfer. And when you win, they're gonna know exactly who you are.'cause you've done multiple interviews and been part of YouTube content and, and stuff like that. And done all your, your brand bits and pieces. So from, from our point of view, I'd always, I'd always push it because as you say, I come from the entertainment industry. Um, compulsory, I don't know where, where is that leading? So like right now, where, where. What, what is the talk amongst the, like the, the higher, especially the higher level ads, you know, like the, yeah. Well,
Dan Rappaport:so like with NFL, the players have to stop for media after, after the game or they get fined. Mm. Um, it's just part of the deal, whereas it's, it's not on the PGA tour. They can always say no. And so there's been some talk, especially with this news, strategic sports group investment. Into, uh, the PGA tour and, and all this, just this sort of consortium of, of billionaires who own American sports teams and are so used to the model where you play and then you talk afterwards and then that sort of feeds the news cycle. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see if they go to that model now that they have more of a say at the table because. It is, I think, a crucial part of the, the sort of sports ecosystem. Imagine if, you know, the, the guy who threw the interception, uh, to lose the Super Bowl, you just never heard from him. It's just, it's just a foreign concept,
Inci Mehmet, Sky Sports:but it is a different setup, isn't it? You look at F1, it's teams. You look at, you know, basketball, NFL, you know, it, it's different because I guess on the PGA tour, it's a player's own tour, so I'd imagine if you're right at the top, you probably wouldn't wanna make it compulsory. So I've got a feeling in which way it's probably gonna go. It won't be compulsory.
Richard Gillis, UP:Well, I think you touched on it there, it's a player's tour and that's, that's what a lot of these things are about, is that the tours, their first, uh, lens is the players'cause it's the membership, you know, so they, it's a different dynamic. If it's not the audience, if it's not us that they're thinking about when they wake up in the morning, it's the players, then that's, that's the problem, isn't it? That's where. Different. We got a sky, right? So
Dan Rappaport:PJ tours, the players tour, but live, you know, they actually can make their players do stuff. Yeah. So you know that you sign a contract and, and you know this, you're, you're doing this and it's, that's different. And that's one of the reasons why they had to pay a lot of money to a lot, you know, such an, an outsized price is, you know, that level of control. And I think that's one of the reasons why some guys stayed is wanting to continue that sort of, you know, independent contractor life. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think a bit
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:of light and shade is okay though. It's okay for people to. Lose their temper. It's okay for people to storm off. I mean, that's part of being human. And we've just talked about an issue where a guy didn't turn up to a press conference and it's keeping us front and center and having a conversation about our game, so, you know, in the right way. Yeah. I don't think it's a bad thing.
Richard Gillis, UP:Yeah. Yeah. Oh
yeah, Nick. Thanks, Richard. Um, your favorite week in all of sports is this week. The open. Yep. Which is created and brought to life by an organization called the RNA. Yep. Which hasn't been mentioned so far. Really interested in what that organization means to the panel and maybe what that organization in the future could mean to the game of golf.
Niall Horan:Well, personally, I, I'm an ambassador of the RNA and, and when I got a call about during the middle of COVID about working with them, I was blown away. First of all. Golf has historically been so good at speaking to golf. Like we're very good at talking to each other and not reaching out to the wider world, which is obviously what we've been talking about for the last half hour. We have been getting better at that. Um, but I, we need, we need those entities to, to speak up and put their, the money they're making on these massive championships into, into the game. And I think the RNA have done an unbelievable job over the last four or five years and really. Branching all over the world and making those championships, their amateur championships even bigger than they've ever been. Um, and I, yeah, I, I, as I said, I think the entities are the most important. And when the RA put their hand up first, I was, we were blown away, but couldn't be prouder to, to represent them. Yeah.
Dan Rappaport:The r a's been making really good YouTube content Yeah. This week. So you're seeing USGA same thing with us open. I mean, they, they're in the content world as well. Yeah.
Ben Sharpe, Callaway:I mean, I think they're a great custodian of our game, but I think they just can have a louder voice. I think as an industry we have many, many different governing bodies and many different um, opinions. And so when you're trying to do something, you always have to trip over'cause you haven't spoken to this or this or this. And there's not an efficient way of getting the message out to the golfer or trying to develop the game through a single entity. Um. I think there's, there's, there's good people in the RNA. I think they've got some good initiatives, but I think we've got to allow them a bit more freedom to do what they want to go and do.
Richard Gillis, UP:Okay. Right. I think we've reached that moment where we are gonna head out onto the golf course. I've a couple of thank yous. Thank you to our panel. Let's give them a round of applause. I like, I like a round of applause. It sounds good. On a podcast. It sounds like you know this. There's actually Pete, I'm not talking to myself. Um, couple of others. Huge thank you to Callaway, Callaway House. All of this would've been very different without. Callaway and MSQ support and entertainment who have put this on it would've been very different if I'd have organized it. So thanks to them. If you want something done, get them in and thank you. Thank you for your time. If you've got anything from this conversation, have a look for Unofficial Partner. Okay, so it's, uh, it's there wherever you get your podcasts and. Thanks a lot guys. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. Cheers everyone.
Chris Gregg:So we finished Monday night by saying get yourself Abeginner. We're gonna finish this morning by saying go inside, get yourself a pick and roll. Thank you. Are we gonna sing up here now or not? Yes. No, you are. You lead the way then.