Unofficial Partner Podcast

UP502 What Just Happened: The IOC and Trump's America; PayPal and CEO branded content; UEFA's global decision

• Richard Gillis

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The perfect weekend warm up. 

Richard is joined by Dave Cushnan and James Emmett from Leaders in Sport. Each picks a story of the week and asks, what just happened?

Sponsored by:

Women’s sport at Leaders Week

Leaders in Sport connects the most influential people and the most powerful ideas in global sport to catalyse discussion, and drive the industry forward.

For over a decade, Leaders has created consistent spaces to support and accelerate the growth of women’s sport – while championing the people driving it forward. At Leaders Week London this year, now just 2 weeks away, the commercial growth opportunity for women's sport will be front and centre. From the headline stage to curated spaces – Leaders Week continues to offer the access, conversations and connections that move the industry forward.

If women’s sport is part of your growth strategy, this is where you’ll find the people who can help make it happen.

Visit leadersinsport.com/UP for more information and use UP15 for a 15% discount on your Summit passes.

Unofficial Partner is the leading podcast for the business of sport. A mix of entertaining and thought provoking conversations with a who's who of the global industry.
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David Cushnan:

Hello, Richard? Hello, James.

James Emmett:

Hello, Richard. Um, and Hello David. Hi. Good to be with you

David Cushnan:

Strategizing.

James Emmett:

just, we are, we are often mistaken for each other. Richard. I, I actually had a WhatsApp from someone earlier this week saying that they could see me on a call. Uh, and I, um, I, I was nowhere near any kind of call. I think I was actually sort of heading to the bathroom. Uh, but what they could actually see was David on a call. Um, exactly, exactly.

Richard Gillis, UP:

We, let's, shall we get going? Because, so the other, the exciting bit this week is that I'm inserting a leader's ad into this conversation.

David Cushnan:

Are you where

Richard Gillis, UP:

well that's, that's the question. It might be here, it might be further on. It might be. We don't know.

James Emmett:

Oh, not physically into sort of an or f You're gonna put it in sort of time, time

Richard Gillis, UP:

I'm not gonna

James Emmett:

spot in the

Richard Gillis, UP:

in front of you.

James Emmett:

right. Got it.

Richard Gillis, UP:

would

David Cushnan:

I think you should read it out in front of us.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I will, that. Hang on. This sounds like we've set this up, but I haven't, hang on, let, let me find this week's.'cause

David Cushnan:

I'd love. I'd love to hear more.

Richard Gillis, UP:

changes every week and we sort of, we

David Cushnan:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

in, uh. Write it in the newsletter. I think this week's was about, let's have a, let's have a look at yesterday's Unofficial Partner newsletter. And

David Cushnan:

Seem to be doing a promotion for your own newsletter at the moment.

Richard Gillis, UP:

it's

David Cushnan:

This.

Richard Gillis, UP:

it's very good. So this is, so this is the ad, right? Leaders in Sport connects the most influential people and the most powerful ideas in global sport to catalyze discussion. I wonder who came out with the word catalyze in the, and drive the industry forward. For over a decade, leaders has created consistent spaces to support and accelerate the growth of women's sport while championing people driving it forward at Leaders Week London this year, now just two weeks away. Hmm. The commercial growth opportunity for women's sport will be front and center from the headline stage to Curated Spaces. Leaders, is that like back Rooms curated SP spaces? Leaders Week continues to offer the access Convert conversations and connections that move the industry forward. If women's sport is part of your growth strategy, this is where you'll find the people who can make it happen. leaders in sport.com/up for more information and obviously use up 15 for a 15% discount on your summit passes. That's quite a lot of money, isn't it? 15%

James Emmett:

We're significant now, now that we're in the final knockings of the campaign. Yeah, and it's, it's full whack for everyone. 50% is a lot off. Yeah.

David Cushnan:

Could you read it again with a bit more pizazz?

James Emmett:

Yes.

Richard Gillis, UP:

this time?

James Emmett:

Can you have fun with it now, Richard?

Richard Gillis, UP:

Right. That's the, that's, that's the baseline. And then we are gonna really, uh, jazz it up. I might do a sort of Barry White voice, sexy voice. No, I won't

David Cushnan:

Do you do all the voiceover work?

Richard Gillis, UP:

I do, I let Sean did it once and it was so funny in a not, you know, unintentional way that I just, we just couldn't put it out. So it was, um, yes I do and I, I, I sometimes wonder about it and actually wonder whether or not in terms of the, whether it cuts through, whether it's my voice.'cause obviously you hear other podcasts and you hear people sort of reading out ad readouts. It's become the sort of genres on podcasts. So, but sometimes I think, you know, and I also on so unexpected goals, we were sort of, initially we were working with, um, sport social Network and it's still on there, but they put programmatic ads into it and never done on Unofficial Partner and they were quite jarring. Um, so we sort of moved away from that a bit and also don't make much money. So anyway, that's a very long way of saying that's the, uh, that's the leader's ad Two

David Cushnan:

Yes.

Richard Gillis, UP:

two weeks to go.

David Cushnan:

Yeah, neither James or I really have time for this, but, uh, here we are. Here we are.

Richard Gillis, UP:

the way the, you, you, the contempt in the voy. This,

David Cushnan:

This, well, what is this?

Richard Gillis, UP:

is this? What just happened? Which

James Emmett:

What just happened?

Richard Gillis, UP:

did just happen. What, um, so I've got two stories, as in, I've got one. Dave's got one. I've not heard much from the Emmett Meister in terms of the subject matter.

James Emmett:

You not, you're not comfortable with the flurry of messages and ideas. I put in the chat last night,

David Cushnan:

He's got two. He's got two. He's between two stories.

James Emmett:

I've got two, Richard.

David Cushnan:

The chat got bogged down with some other stuff, but, uh, there are, there are two,

Richard Gillis, UP:

sorry. Yes,

David Cushnan:

two very solid ideas.

Richard Gillis, UP:

com I have completely, so I have

James Emmett:

Sorry. You probably went to bed early last night, didn't you?

Richard Gillis, UP:

uh, I did actually, I was at the two Circle summit yesterday.

James Emmett:

Probably, probably forced to go to bed early after a long old day.

Richard Gillis, UP:

It is time for bed, Richard. The, the, um,

David Cushnan:

There was the star turn at the two circles summit, because I Was it last year? I went I think. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

oh,

David Cushnan:

I.

Richard Gillis, UP:

was, it was, it was really good. And I, I, I won't sort of blow their sort of, um, you know, it's Chatham House rules and stuff, so I don't wanna talk too much about it, but it was really interesting and for lots of different reasons, it felt like a sort of bit of a, I said to, we did a podcast with Gareth that will come out, um, in a couple of weeks probably. But there's a sort of university vibe to it. I don't, you know, you sort of feel like I'm, I'm scribbling away, which is not normal for, you know, conferences. I hate to tell you, but I, there, I'm, I.

James Emmett:

Interesting, compelling people delivering interesting things in lecture format.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Exactly that. And I really, I did really genuinely enjoy it. I found it really, uh, occasionally you sort of think, okay, well I'm, you know, you talk to lots of people, but it's just nice to sit there and let someone else talk for a change. So I wasn't doing a turn on stage. That's always good. And you're just sort of sitting there. I was scribbling, there's no other word for it. I was, I was literally scribbling the, uh, you know, bits and bobs and phrases, bits of data. Very interesting.

David Cushnan:

Very good. They do a good, they do a good, uh, client summit, don't they?

Richard Gillis, UP:

do a good client summit. And, uh, Jamie, you've been to the IMG one, haven't you?

James Emmett:

Uh, yeah. Although I don't think it's the, uh, I don't think they call it a client summit, but it's, yeah, it's the IMG summit. It's actually next week, rich. It's,

Richard Gillis, UP:

it?

James Emmett:

it's season, Richard, as you know. Yeah. Are you going to, um, are going to Roger Mitchell's thing? Rich, you're going to Como this.

Richard Gillis, UP:

that. No, no, no. Invitation turned up again.

James Emmett:

Okay. That's a roundabout now as well, isn't it?

Richard Gillis, UP:

yeah. He invented the word summit apparently, so that's good.

James Emmett:

Did he

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

James Emmett:

have you, rich, have you seen, and this, you can cut this out. Have you seen, um, hoopy, Duy on Instagram?

Richard Gillis, UP:

what,

James Emmett:

Uh, so it's a, an Instagram account called Hoopy Duy.

David Cushnan:

You would enjoy it so much.

James Emmett:

love it, rich. And it's a,

Richard Gillis, UP:

it?

James Emmett:

it's a bloke who essentially satirizes, uh, this sort of thing, podcasts. Uh, he's, he mainly satirizes, two blokes recording a podcast at a summit. And he does things like the podcast summit, the a, the AI summit, the Ideas Summit. it is world class. Absolutely world class.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Excellent. Well, I think, you know, it's, uh, I think we're sort of beyond satire at this point, but, um, Babu, bum. Okay, so let's get going and with a, who's gonna go first? Who should we go first?

David Cushnan:

I think you should

Richard Gillis, UP:

Do you know what? Okay, I will. so again, just to lay out the format, what's what just happened? We've all each got a story. You're gonna bring it along.

David Cushnan:

That's the format.

Richard Gillis, UP:

it. I thought it was interesting. I think sometimes, so this, the IOC is my, my story and, um, I did a bit in the newsletter as previously mentioned this, Christian klau, I'm hoping I'm pronouncing his, uh, his name properly. He was the IOC director, corporate communications, public affairs, global reputation, and. He put out a LinkedIn post this week saying that there was a, and it was four, five bullet points fit for the future. The IOC President Kirsty Coventry is creating four new working groups, and the groups are the Olympic program working group, focusing on the sports program of the Olympics, the protection of the female category, working group, the commercial partnerships and marketing. Marketing group. Marketing. made of a word, working uh, looking at the existing IOC programs, commercial stuff, sponsorship stuff, the Youth Olympic Games. And in addition, in order to review the selection process of Olympic hosts, the future host commission for the Games of the Olympiad, we'll now focus on this topic, right? Few things. One, I thought that it's useful every now and then to just sort of sit back and say, right, okay. That's what Kirsty Cory and the IOC is thinking about. Laying out the plan, she's the new president coming in, dunno much about her. She's a bit sort of ill-defined in my mind. She was bark's, favored candidate. and one of the themes that a couple of people have mentioned to me is that, you know, what is left to do. Because the bark was very of clear, he put his name in front of the new NBC deal and obviously the, you know, from a commercial point of view, the NBC is 3 billion quid to 2036. That money is secured. So that's the, that's the sort of window. you've got the host cities lined up until 2036. So what's left? And so this is a sort of an attempt really to frame the first bit of the Coventry era and we'll see where that goes. So it's interesting, some interesting topics there, blah, blah, blah. So the point I made yesterday was that explicit reference of climate wasn't in there, I'm sure they'll come back with a response to say it's, it's a permeating theme of some sort. It's a theme that runs through everything and therefore we don't need to flag it up. just, again, just slightly provocative, but I just thought it, the list felt like it was written Donald Trump looking over their shoulder and with LA 28 coming along and the inevitable oval office ambush come press conference that is to come for Kirsty Coventry. invites a question about what the Olympics relationship with Trump's America is. If you want to sort of blow it up into a bigger question I picked on climate, it wasn't there. I thought it deserved its own bullet point, but, and people can read the newsletter and see whether they agree or disagree. I think the broader thing is so much of, and this talks to the other bullet points or certainly the commercial question, which is I think so much about the value of the Olympics is intangible. You buy a set of rights, there's a row each time about who's encroaching on into the arena. there's a stadia naming rights argument going on at the moment. America is full of, new venues which have been owned by Corporate America and the IOCs model doesn't quite fit with that. So there's that going on. There's the whole LVMH Samsung encroaching into the arena with various bits of product placement. And the Olympic lobby, it's a cottage industry, are up in arms about that. And you get people saying you must defend the i, you know, the top program and everything it stands for. So there's a very vociferous and strong lobby within the sports business conversation, which, which gets into that and says, right, okay, no, it must be, it's like a Ming vs. model. You can't play with it because it sustained the whole of the Olympic model, which filters through to sports. Further down the, pyramid, it's vital for the continuation of. Big sport in that sense. So don't fuck about with it. Is it always the message and it's been, you know, it, it started in la you know, whoever wants to claim it, whether it's Patrick Nally or Michael Payne or whoever, they all argue about the, you know, the foundation of it. essentially they, they want to preserve it. Now, does it fit? And it's interesting coming out the back of, know, the two circles thing yesterday. That was all about what is happening now. And you know, you've got all the, all of the clients in the room, enormous roster of, very big sports rights holders and brands and all of it was, it was such a world away from the top program. Just in terms of it's the way in which their thinking about sports marketing and audiences and the cultivation and curation of audiences and where audiences are. It feels like the top pre, you might as well just sort of wear a monocle. It's come from like sort of another, it's like a Victorian age, you know, it's like a different era it's predicated on obviously TV, media rights and sponsorship, exclusivity, all of which in an era of the for you algorithm, feeds and. Share a voice and YouTube and all of the, current, the, the, the marketplace as is feels completely out of, out of touch. So you've got the technical stuff, which I'm sure those task groups will get into. the more interesting bit is actually at a higher level than that, which is the values of the IOC and do they fit with, Trump's America as they go into, LA Because I think my, the short answer is no, I don't think they do fit. And I think that I've grown up, I'm older than you and my whole adult life, the Olympics has represented some words which are now weaponized and you then, because we're British, you run a sort of Brexit sort of line into this so 40% of people under British voters under 40, which obviously a big remain constituency they gave them words like globalization, immigration, technology, environmentalism, feminism, multiculturalism, under 40, huge vote for, those were good words, favorable words over fifties, the same words. And again, again, big leave, um, constituency. The majority of those describe them as a force for ill. you've got this, the landscape, the political sort of landscape. And obviously in with Trump, that's been, created even more so the same lines, fault lines exist. So when the Olympics comes to town,, when you look back at, you look at it as a whole, trades on values obviously, and it always has done. And that's why, Companies do it. They get the, the contract details and the, list of benefits, but we all know that the Olympics is about olympism, it's about something bigger than ourselves and blah, blah, blah. And all those words are very combined, you know, mixed in with the Olympic model. So where you then bring that in an America, which has been sort of deeply politicized around those, those terms. I think it's not a very good, a, not an easy fit. And I think that the most difficult thing for Kirsty Coventry, we're trying to navigate the next few years of trying to keep olympism and it might be a very western UK view on Olympism. And you might, she might turn around and say, actually it's about the world. It's not about, people in, uh, in Brighton. But you do have a sense that there is a mismatch and the other bit is obvious. Gen Z and Gen Alpha, they're, you know, they are sort of undermining the business model by not watching, you know, so that's the other problem. And you then get to skateboarding on the program. You get to, Snoop Dogg or whatever. So I think the Olympics, and I, I go back to Jack Buckner who came on our podcast, a while ago, UK Athletics Chief Exec, who said, the Olympics are in more trouble than people think. And fundamentally it's about audience and relevance and moving on. So I think all of those questions, those bullet points are interesting. I think climate's, uh, not being there was, was a miss I think, but also the bigger picture of Olympics into Trump, America. Anyway, that's me. What do you think?

James Emmett:

There's a lot there isn't there, Richard?

Richard Gillis, UP:

Well, it's a big topic, isn't it? It's a big

James Emmett:

Plenty to chew on. Plenty to chew on. Um, just on that final PO point, I'll just pick up on the final point and then, um, make a point about Trump and then David can get stuck into the, um, 17 or 18 other minutes of, uh, what you just talked about. the, the, the point about Z mucking up the business model by not watching, honestly, I think the Kirsty Commentary's bullet points, her vision, what she's gonna tackle with these working groups is pretty much all aimed at that, right? Um, it's, it's, it's all about sustaining. The games into the future with new audiences. And I think the final bullet point, the final working group is a really telling one. Um, it's the Youth Olympic, you know, it's, it's a working group to look at the, the viability of the youth Olympic games and in government speak, when you are consulting about something, it means it's, you know, it's either a done deal or it's dead in the water. Um, and I would suggest with the Youth Olympic Games, that is dead in the water, but they will find new initiatives aimed at those same objectives, right. Getting, getting new, younger audiences the Olympics. And they're already doing that in lots of different ways. on, on Trump. You are right. Um, broadly, um. The 28 Olympics are going to be politicized like you've never seen before, simply where they are geographically. And in the calendar, they're gonna be in the midst of a, an, an election campaign, a presidential election campaign in the us. Who knows how involved Trump will be within that election campaign, but he's certainly not gonna be quiet. Um, however. he is in it. Um, I do think Trump's relationship with sport isn't clear cut, though it can't, um, it can't be categorized alongside the sort of culture wars like Trump and the right on that side, um, with the World Cup and um, other folks, and then the Olympics and the left on that side. It, it, it's not as simple as that. Trump, Trump is expert at using sport as a platform and he is not easily pigeonholed. He knows exactly what buttons to press. He knows how sport works favorably for him and for sports fans. And fundamentally, he loves sport, right? And he definitely knows how to capitalize on the idea of. Of winning, of, of striving to win and, and winning. And that's how the US treats the Olympics. And Trump absolutely will get on that train. There is a world in which he ignores Olympic values and focuses on America winning in America. Um, and that will be hunky dory for the IOC. But Dave, I'll let you, I'll let you tackle the rest of it.

David Cushnan:

Well, just to add to that first political climate in the US now, as it might be in, uh, 2028, hard to predict, but as you say, a campaign that might well include Democrat, governor of California, Gavin Newsom being very heavily involved. So there's that dynamic as well. You have to have, if you're the IOCA, a Trump strategy, a Trump approach. But you also have to understand what's going on in California and

James Emmett:

saying

David Cushnan:

that's playing out.

James Emmett:

Dave, the, the la um, 28 president is not unpolitical himself.

David Cushnan:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think, um, if we think about Kirsty Coventry, like Gianni Infantino, like any other leader of a global sports organization that is to some extent reliant on the US to, you know, we'll be hosting major events there needs the, the commercial political clout needs, the security services to be on board, et cetera, et cetera. You absolutely now have to have a very dedicated and specific Trump. Strategy. And you also have to have Trump tactics, by the way, because if you, I dunno if you saw, he turned up at the final of the, uh, the US Open, um, as a guest of Rolex. So not invited by the USTA, but it caused the whole final to be delayed by best part of 45 minutes, thousands of people outside because there's additional security. So you, you, you're constantly having to be on the fly because nobody is really in a position to ask him not to turn up.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I didn't realize the Rolex connection. That's interesting.

David Cushnan:

Yeah. He was in the Rolex Box, um, as a guest. Uh, and that's how the invitation came about, which the USTA obviously had to then accommodate, um, with all the security measures. But if you think, you know, Dana White is. Has very much hitched his wagon to Trump and is planning to stage A UFC, uh, night in the grounds of the White House next year. So this is happening. We've seen what Infantino does. Every opportunity he gets, he's in the Oval Office and he is, he has decided that that is the best way to s you know, smooth the path of the, not just the World Cup next year, but obviously the club World Cup, uh, and, and sort of make that as, make that work in as best way as possible. And having the Trump endorsement he has presumably calculated can help that.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I think so on that Dave. I think it's a really good point and I think it does also,'cause sometimes we conflate FIFA in the IOC as sort of big sport and they are, you know, when you talk to sponsors, there's a sort of either or question or, you know, they both do similar jobs technically. There is a very, I think a difference and it's been, interesting to see Infantino embracing. Trump, although, you know, he obviously in traded Putin and, and, um, Qatar as well. So it's a, it's a very, uh, would call it sort of apolitical, focused on just getting the job done. He

David Cushnan:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

so. But I do think there is a difference in, at a values level between the IOC and fifa and I think this

David Cushnan:

Yes.

Richard Gillis, UP:

da

James Emmett:

Yeah, FIFA's utilitarian, right?

Richard Gillis, UP:

territory for the IOC than it is for fifa.

David Cushnan:

Yeah, I, I, I agree. And also. On a practical level, the IOC cannot have damaged relations with the US in any way because there's LA 28, but in 2034, salt Lake City is hosting the Winter Olympics, so they've got another one coming around the the corner, and they need, you know. Different sizes of events, of course, but, um, but an interesting one to your climate point, uh, as well. Just on Kirsty Coventry this week, she's, um, been assembling her, her top team. Uh, so Jan Patterson has come in as her chief of staff, uh, former of the British Olympic Association. More recently she's been running neons sport activities in uh, Saudi Arabia. So that's an interesting hire. James Pearce. Very good operator. I like James. I think he's really good. And he's come in to run her communications, um, ex BBC man, um, who has worked, uh, at the highest levels. Uh, and he will be very much thinking about, okay, how to manage the inevitable situation of Kirsty Coventry in the Oval Office when Trump is answering questions about whatever the news story of the day is, uh, to the, the, the press pack. Um, I think the climate point is, uh, and the other point to say on the working groups, by the way, just as a sort of, again, understanding some of the motivations there, I think you talked well about the, the topics and the subjects. I think the reasons those are being set up is interesting as well. You've got to remember that Kirsty Coventry was elected. At the first vote and only by one vote she, she, you know, made the bar to win in the first round by one vote. That means she doesn't necessarily have the, the full support of a big majority of the IOC membership in theory. Um, and one of the criticisms of Thomas Back was that he was a president who ran things like a, like a chief executive, like an all powerful chief executive, took all the decision making power away from the IOC members. So actually, I think this is probably a move to give the IO as many IOC members as possible, a really active voice in coming up with future decisions, future policy, future focus. I would add to the climate point in terms of the IOC being probably the only organization as you made the point in your newsletter yesterday that can probably have this longer term view. I'd throw AI into that as well. And I think, I think from a. From a global sport point of view, it's the only organization that can be, should be setting up the framework, the parameters for what sport does, how sport approaches both those things over the next, you know, 15, 30 years, let alone next two to three years.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Part of a conversation we had actually, I, I mean I, one of the things that the AI question, I, we won't going to that, we'll come back to an AI question'cause I think it, whether it fits into a sponsorship frame is a really fascinating question.'cause that's what lots of people are trying to do and it might not work anyway. Who's, who wants next? Let's go with, shall I? I'm going. I'm, this is up. This is up being a, this is up being at a conference where, you know, any questions and then you are right. I'm gonna have to pick someone to, um, go with. Right. I'm just gonna look at the, the subject matter and I quite fancy a little bit of, oh, let's talk about the PayPal thing.

James Emmett:

It actually runs on from, it runs on nicely from Kirsty commentary set, setting her stall out. So this isn't really a one-off story that I bring. It's a, it's a concatenation of separate events, um, that, uh, together suggested something. so. First of all, around about a month ago, um, PayPal, the payments, uh, tech firm put out a job posting on LinkedIn that got a lot of traction with people going, um. What's just happened, um, because the job was, um, head of CEO content is the title, uh, of the job and the salary I guess.'cause it's an American, um, role in San Francisco is up to$290,000 a year. So it was a range, but that was the top end. Um,

David Cushnan:

James?

James Emmett:

sparked a lot of discussion about, uh, um, CEO comms in general in this day and age. so there's that combined with, um, a couple of things that happened pretty much immediately after we recorded this podcast last week. So we talked about, um, David, Dave Hopkinson, um, the CEO job at Newcastle. As we were talking, he must have been watching the rushes. From the very well produced video, the Newcastle team were, um, were assembling, um, of him, of his first day, his introduction video as Newcastle CEO, in which he sets his stall out and does a nice walk around the ground and, oh my God, isn't it great? I've dreamed about this sort of thing. Anyways, it's a, it's a, it's a very beautifully produced, um, film. Um, then a few days after that, um, VIN I vanes, the CEO, the new-ish CEO of Tottenham, put out his own, filmed interview on Tottenham's YouTube channel, in which he, it's not quite as well produced as the Newcastle, um, film, but it is a masterclass in, Leader, commun leader outward communication In the wake of a, a sort of organizational rupture, Daniel Levy obviously announced his res, his his resignation as executive chairman of Spurs. After years in the role, um, and consternation press, tittle tattle is the club being sold. What happens next? Levy's legacy. All of that washed away, calmed or quelled by a nine minute video put out on Spurs as YouTube channel in which vi I Van Caesium, um, spells out what the club's unified vision is reassures, uh, over the leadership structure in place, and calmly, authoritatively. Um, declares the club isn't for sale. The Lewis family, uh, are actively in control. And actually, here's some new information. These members of the Lewis family are now actively involved. I just thought those sort of three things in combination signal. Well, first of all, I thought the, the two club videos were actually excellently done. And, you know, we, us three sometimes sit on the journalistic side of things, are so naturally inclined to look at a piece of club communication, cynically, uh, and, and feel like they will not have, they obviously will not have covered all the ground that you might want to if you were a journalist asking the questions. clearly no attempt at a gotcha moment for Vinni or for Dave. Um, but I thought they were really well produced and they answered a lot of questions and clubs. In this climate where PayPal are hiring for a head of CEO contact content, maybe football clubs will start thinking that more communication in a controlled manner better than less communication and club comms, people will start thinking that a day in which nothing happens isn't necessarily as good as it once was. Uh, so, so I think maybe signaling we're moving into a new era of, football, CEO comms.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah. Okay. I find this really interesting. So going back to the, PayPal thing, I think there's a difference between, I agree with you in terms of the way in which the CEO is being framed and, you know, the Newcastle, the club thing, the Spurs thing, of that makes complete sense and I think it then it just is another area in which, They can communicate. So just more communication, greater communication leads to just, you know, filling the space that could be cut up and whatever. And, and you get it on a, again, that, that machinery is working to fill our feeds. And the more you fill it with Spurs stuff, whether it's the CEO talking, whether it's a kit launch, whether it's a sort of local community thing, all of that just talks to building fandoms at the top, you know, the, the top loading, the top of the funnel. And that's, that's, get what's going on there. And I agree with you. It's interesting. The one thing I did think about, there was two things. I thought that, well, there's a job for James Emmett, 200 Grand for head of You could do that in your sleep head of CEO content and

James Emmett:

2 290 Grand Rich.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay. Whatever is it No, I've, I've, I've got, okay, grand again. for James. There's a, the, the other bit was, the obvious thing to point out is that if you advertise for a job like that, then everything you then do as CEO is rendered inauthentic because the person who is the head of CEO content is the, obviously the one doing it. I get it, you put, corporate meets creator type coming together. You are getting a superstar, CEO, people, relate to people rather than corporations. All of these big trends are towards this job being useful or interesting or, you know, valuable. But there is an inherent contradiction there because I know you are not doing it now. Now, whether or not they would argue, it's just a, it's a more of a technical job rather than a content job. But it's got content in the title CEO content, Dave, one in the, in the, you know, surely in the market for a, uh, CEO content advisor. I can see, in fact, I can see you two up a little little business on the side.

David Cushnan:

Oh, do you think? Yeah,

Richard Gillis, UP:

content. Surely

James Emmett:

David,

David Cushnan:

Um,

James Emmett:

145 grand each. If we just split that.

Richard Gillis, UP:

yeah,

David Cushnan:

that is an interesting way to think about it, isn't it? Yes. I hadn't quite done the math set.

Richard Gillis, UP:

in your

David Cushnan:

Um,

Richard Gillis, UP:

a week.

David Cushnan:

Stephen Bartlet did something, uh, similar and on a few months ago where he was hiring, uh, well. His company, the way they did it, the way they flagged it, uh, publicly on the, on the job sites was, um, personal publicist to high profile founder. They didn't actually name him,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

David Cushnan:

but, it sort of relates back to what we, what we talked about last week in terms of the, uh, the public nature now, and I think you said Richard, the, these CEOs are talked about down the pub and for all the reasons we talked about last week, and they are high profile figures. And, you know, in, in our world, as we are programming events and, and programming things like Leaders Week, it is, it has definitely become more challenging to create the right environment for. Premier League CEOs to come and speak in a public forum where media will be present, where there's the possibility of receiving questions from audiences. And, and there is a, there's a, you know, for understandable reasons, there is a, you know, a bit of a ring of steel sometimes around them in terms of communications people and people within the, the club who are looking to, um, I suppose protect, are looking, uh, are sometimes potentially a little bit defensive, on the defensive. There's. Probably lots of reasons for that. There are lots of controversial topics swirling around the, the football world now. You know, everything from the financial regulations to some of the political stuff that will come on to talk about where every, anything that resembles an opinion will be turned into a thousand headlines and millions of words of commentary. And that is a, that is a tricky environment, um, in which to work. In terms of looking at the sports industry. If you think about, um, CEOs, founders who really have put themselves front and center, I think you have to look outside football, uh, primarily, and it's interesting next week, the, uh, the much, uh, anticipated, um, uh, Netflix series about Match Room and, but effectively about Barry and Eddie Hearn comes out and they would obviously be the two probably prime examples of, because of the nature of that world, the world they're operating in, the boxing space where it has. For decades been about promotion and getting, you know, making headlines and making a song and dance to sell fights. Um, but they have definitely created, uh, you know, personalities around themselves that they're quite happy to,

Richard Gillis, UP:

And I guess

David Cushnan:

uh, you know,

Richard Gillis, UP:

my, to

David Cushnan:

project and that, you know, the, there's not a day goes by when Eddie Hearn is not, um, sitting, doing, uh, you know, an interview for a boxing YouTube channel. Um.

Richard Gillis, UP:

golf or, you know, or making some statement. But I, I would say, and just to both Barry and Eddie Hearn, they may well have someone who has the, you know, they've got a comms guy, a personal comms guy or whatever. They feel like the authentic, real thing. You know, love'em, hate'em, whatever. But this is them talking. There's no sort of filter Barry Hearn's personal brand has been a sort of feature of the sports business and been, you know, culture more generally for 40 years. You know, and I don't think it's manufactured. It might be amplified slightly for the camera, but I, it's not something that, um, you've got a lot of natural, talent there to deal with the media and that's, that's great. It's when you've got a really boring bloke in charge and you then have to then, create something

David Cushnan:

it's an essential part of the

Richard Gillis, UP:

it is.

David Cushnan:

skillset now, right? It's, it's non-negotiable. You can't be that and get to the highest levels, can you?

James Emmett:

well, that's debatable Dave, I think. Um, but,

Richard Gillis, UP:

bit is, is the sort of flight risk question. I mean, I always think with this, that the more you promote the ceo, the more you, you know, the, the risk is that you are putting you, that your company brand in the hands of an individual who will then bugger off from, for a higher paid job, some, somewhere else.

James Emmett:

back ham or sack and rich, you know, you can't, you can't have a CEO and then temper your support for them on the authenticity thing though, rich, I, I, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it's, it's the reason that, you know, marketing agency folks yammer on about authenticity and have done for

Richard Gillis, UP:

yeah.

James Emmett:

years and in the context in

Richard Gillis, UP:

being paid to be inauthentic,

James Emmett:

exactly, well, the context in which they're talking about authenticity is usually, um, it's it relating to some kind of brand campaign where you might have a, uh, an athlete spokesperson matched with a sponsor brand work on a particular channel. And when they're talking about authenticity. They might not articulate it, but they're talking about a, an authentic space between those three things, which doesn't really exist. It's like taking a bit of the authentic self and communication style of the athlete. Also what the brand and the brand stands for and the brand values, and then the channel that you are putting out the work on. It's, a, it's a new inauthentic space. It's not authentic to any of them. It's a bit of,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

James Emmett:

uh, it's a bit of something new. And, and that's probably what the head of CEO content will be aiming for is it's an authentic and, um, regularly cadenced, uh, sort of style of communication, um, that will absolutely be in the CEO's voice, but also be true to PayPal's strategy, brand values, communication style, and also show up, uh, authentically on in whatever channel or platform.

David Cushnan:

do you think we'll ever get to the stage where your average football club c or your high level football club, CEO, your vin Igh venesian, uh, becomes a almost a sponsorship category in their own right? You know, if they are, if they are increasingly on a trajectory to becoming public,

James Emmett:

Are you asking

David Cushnan:

public figures.

James Emmett:

will become a sponsorship category?

David Cushnan:

asking whether there might be a world somewhere in the future where Tottenham Hopper

Richard Gillis, UP:

I can see that.

David Cushnan:

might sell a,

James Emmett:

EO

David Cushnan:

you know, an official formal wear partner of the executive team or something like that.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I,

David Cushnan:

That's the future.

Richard Gillis, UP:

it, I can absolutely see that CEO's watch

James Emmett:

Hmm.

David Cushnan:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

to, you

James Emmett:

The signing pen.

Richard Gillis, UP:

box,

James Emmett:

Hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

who, uh,

David Cushnan:

It all works, doesn't it?

Richard Gillis, UP:

Right. David Cushman.

David Cushnan:

Right. Uh, what just happened? Well, not as much as some people had suspected. Um, you.

Richard Gillis, UP:

The.

David Cushnan:

No it's not. No it's not. Um, but it's a big story that's bubbling away, um, and I think is gonna be the talk of leaders. Um, so U Wafers, um, executive committee yesterday Thursday, had a meeting and essentially deferred a decision on whether to vote through proposals that have been made by Laga and Syria to stage competitive league games abroad. So we're talking here about two separate proposals. Uh, Laga wants to host a Villareal versus Barcelona game in December in Miami at Hard Rock Stadium. So there's Stephen Ross, the Miami Dolphins, Miami Grand Prix, the tennis relevant, obviously involved there. Uh, and then Syria. By all accounts, have an agreement pretty much ready to go, um, to stage a game in Perth, Australia in February, which would be an ac Milan versus Como game. And in this case, they have to find a venue for it because the San Stadium, Milan stadium is unavailable due to the Winter Olympics. I think it's the opening ceremony. So it's not a new topic. It's been bubbling away for years. La Liga in particular has tried before 2018 Barcelona were front and center of that effort. It was very, you know, it, it, it went legal. Um. The politics of European football, international football continue to evolve. And this question of how, where, when European leagues are permitted to stage games, competitive games abroad continues to, uh, you know, to rumble on. There's obviously politics at all levels of this. So the EU Commissioner has chimed in, uh, which prompted Syria and Liga to hit back with pretty robust, uh, statements. Uafa is obviously, uh, professionally embed with relevant now in terms of selling the Champions League, uh, or European, uh, competition rights, relevant, of course initially, effectively created as a way to place European football. In America in all shapes and forms, um, within the leagues themselves. There's politics here. So Barcelona want to do something, guess what Rail Madrid say? You can't do that. We don't like that within clubs. So there's, there's, there's a big

Richard Gillis, UP:

Hmm.

David Cushnan:

mess of politics around all of this. Um, the Premier League have continued to say, and Richard Masters emphasized this, um, on his US tour, um, during the summer series a few weeks ago in lots of media interviews that the Premier League currently has not got this on the table as a topic of discussion, but obviously the league as Syria are two of the leagues operating, uh, you know, nominally as part of the European Big Five Leagues. But in reality, they are two of the four big leagues underneath the Colossus that is the Premier League. So different situations currently there, where it's been left is Uafa have launched. A consultation to understand more about this, how it would work, pros and cons. They're gonna speak to all the stakeholders. They're gonna speak to fans. Not sure what else they think they're gonna find out from that. It's obviously a very emotive topic. There's pros from the league's point of view. They're looking at revenue generation, they're looking at site fees, hosting fees, the PR profile piece, all the stuff we know about hosting games outside of your geographic boundaries, but obviously a, an emotive issue. Um, a lot of fan, uh, backlash against this, although obviously as I think we. Are aware of quite simplistic to simply states that there's ever one fan view on anything. Um, but there's clearly a lot of feeling here and there's obviously a precedent that would be set that, as we've seen in a bit of reporting and commentary around this, this week from the football media is, uh, something that uh, that does create a lot of, um, I suppose concern about the future in some quarters. So, big topic, lots going on and, um, still permissions to be sought before either league can actually move forward and do the deals that they've already got in place.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Right. Fascinating. The thin end of the wedge is the main concern, isn't it, that you can sort of

David Cushnan:

Yes.

Richard Gillis, UP:

that phrase being used around here. So, the bit at the end there about the sort of relative of strength of Syria art and La Liga as opposed to the Premier League, I think is really interesting.'cause I think it sort of raises the question of is this a decision born of strength or weakness? Is this something that they're doing outta desperation to find new audience? Is it, or is it just a natural extension and monetizing the global fan, blah, blah, blah. Which again can make sense, but I just, I wonder the other bit is, All of the things that we always talk about. I'm, I'm inherently against it. Obviously, I'm, that's my starting position. The only time I've had any wr inkling of a sort of shift is that I had Adam Crafton on from The Athletic, and he was, o you know, he is been based in the States for the last year running into the World Cup, and we were talking about NBC and he's talking to people at NBC who think it's gonna happen with the Premier League and obviously masters then has to go and sort of damp down this speculation and each time it, it, it comes up. one of the questions was that they've paid so much money in rights, have they not earned the right, and we're talking about the American marketplace here, and at what point they say, right, okay, this has to be in the next right cycle. And I think that, you know, that feels like that's gonna be a lever than the sort of. You know, there's Aish element to this, or not it, it takes, you need one of the big clubs to be there.'cause otherwise it's mid table mediocrity. And it doesn't matter which stadium is gonna host it, where it's gonna host it. So I think the sake of doing it for the, the local American fan and the, you know, the 50,000 people will be in the, in the stadium, it's always still gonna be a televised event. I think it's not worth it is my sense, because why would you bother? And I think that, you know, 30 years of the NFL coming to London, we've been on the other end of this and still the, you know, it's locked in this, you know, will they, won't they? And that's all, you know, I just, that's my sense. I'm feeling a

James Emmett:

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, UP:

like, oh really?

James Emmett:

but Rich, you say 30 years of the NFL coming to London. I think it's a little bit less than that, you know, in the modern era of the NFL's, um,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Really?

James Emmett:

annual visits.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I, I interviewed the fridge in

James Emmett:

no. Sure. They had a little break, didn't they? But then they, this, this recent run, I think starts in 2008 or 2009.

David Cushnan:

You really have interviewed everyone, haven't you?

James Emmett:

He's interviewed a fridge Dave

Richard Gillis, UP:

yeah. Not the fridge.

James Emmett:

stunned, late at night after a two circles summit just in front of the fridge with a microphone.

Richard Gillis, UP:

period. I was selling anything to anyone.

James Emmett:

Well, you, you, you mentioned the NFL, um, you could probably ask the same sort of question about, you know, ahead of their recent spate of, uh, games internationally. Were they doing that from a position of strength or weakness relative to their competition? it's immaterial now that they are an absolute bare off and their media rights go up and up and up.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Not

James Emmett:

Um.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I mean, it is still only 2%.

James Emmett:

international internationally to, well internationally, they grow and grow and grow. but if you look at the NBA who also have been on a similar internationalization drive and have brought competitive games to, um, international clients, um, they are on the verge of launching, um, something real and tangible in Europe and as early as 2027. so we're led to believe,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Can I

James Emmett:

to your po

Richard Gillis, UP:

I just say one thing?

James Emmett:

Oh, please.

Richard Gillis, UP:

This is what I, and I think this is my position. I think sport is local. I don't think it's global.

James Emmett:

That is too general to be useful.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I think it's a series of local markets.

David Cushnan:

a.

Richard Gillis, UP:

a global market.

David Cushnan:

It's interesting what you said, you said there, Richard, about the, um, about the NBC conversation and, and the rights and the feeling perhaps being that they've earned the right through your commitment. But, but

James Emmett:

you create more value in the next package?

David Cushnan:

yeah, but also it's what, do they think they've bought, you know, how, what, what portion of the fee that they pay for Premier League football is literally 22 players on a field. And that field could be anywhere or, or pitch. how much of that rights fee would you ascribe to the atmosphere at Anfield, and night game at Crystal Palace or whatever? The Britishness, I suppose the Englishness of the, the Premier League and Premier League fandom. I think the n what the NFL has done really well is you go to an NFL game, whether it's at Wembley or Tottenham. It feels, it feels very, it looks very American. It looks like, you know, they, they, they bring it and they make it, they make it look and feel that way. And I'm not sure you can, you know, there's a lot more sort of paraphernalia involved in an NFL game than a Premier League game. I'm not sure. Taking a game to a different country, 90 minute game, putting it in a very American looking stadium, does the trick on its own, which is where we get back to the thin, end of thin, end of the wedge. And it, and at the moment, at the moment, it's,

Richard Gillis, UP:

funny enough, I can, I can see a final, I can see a Champions League final in New York.

David Cushnan:

yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

this wanting the Champions League final to be a Super Bowl knockoff that I can absolutely see happening. Funny enough, it's the less status games like, someone versus someone in Perth, which I think is a mistake. If they think that's the first step too, if I just, I think,

David Cushnan:

It needs to be more, I think it needs to be more than an a, a single, 90 minute game, which is where it's the thin end of the wedge and suddenly one out of 380 games becomes 10, and then we're in a different conversation. If I was relevant and I was thinking about, okay, how can I make more of an impact, I would probably be talking to La Liga, Syria. Bundas Liga is tricky because of the, the fan ownership

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

David Cushnan:

I, I do think that's really tricky, but I'd be talking to Liga and I'd be thinking, okay, look, can we get. Let's say three or four games on a single weekend in and around Hard Rock Stadium and create a sort of, you know, UA for backed European football. It's competitive games, it's league games, but do it as a sort of, you know, a big sort of festival thing rather than a single Barcelona game played on a random weekend in a time zone that sort of still has to work for Spain and, and the fans back home. So it's never gonna be in a, a prime time.

Richard Gillis, UP:

of Amazon Premier League night.

David Cushnan:

Yeah, yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

David Cushnan:

Anyway, relevant can have that free, uh,

Richard Gillis, UP:

yeah.

David Cushnan:

free advice.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay. Right. I think we are there what just happened? But in the meantime, thank you very much for your time. You are very busy leaders, people running into leaders in two weeks time, look tired. Both of you look like you're working day in, day out, and uh, you should take

David Cushnan:

Well, we are, just to be clear, just to be clear,

Richard Gillis, UP:

You are.

David Cushnan:

stop any rumors about

Richard Gillis, UP:

I thought you just turned up on the Wednesday and just did your thing. Actually, I always forget'cause I never go to the event on the Tuesday night. You've got an awards thing on the Tuesday, aren't you? then there's something else on on

David Cushnan:

we've got big.

Richard Gillis, UP:

as well. What's going on on Monday?

James Emmett:

Yeah, we've got a private workshop on the Monday.

Richard Gillis, UP:

private friends.

James Emmett:

Yeah, for private friends only, invite only. And then on Tuesday we've got our Leaders Club, uh, a Leaders Club event, which is our sort of up and coming thrusting, young executives gathering to, um, to meet each other and have

Richard Gillis, UP:

air.

James Emmett:

The waft of ambition around,

Richard Gillis, UP:

it. Smell it

James Emmett:

and then

Richard Gillis, UP:

lynx.

James Emmett:

pheromones rich. That's what it is. It's, it's just raw pheromones. And then, uh,

Richard Gillis, UP:

in that room.

James Emmett:

the Glory Days of Links Africa.

Richard Gillis, UP:

thank You very much for your time,

James Emmett:

Cheers, rich. Thank you.

David Cushnan:

Cheers.