Unofficial Partner Podcast

UP504 What Just Happened: Inside IMG's farmhouse; Peter Thiel's Enhanced Games; Jamie Redknapp's new agency

• Richard Gillis

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Three stories from a week in the sports business.

James Emmett comes fresh from the IMG-Redbird Summit.

David Cushnan on what and who lurks behind The Enhanced Games.

Richard on Jamie Redknapp and Richard Thompson's new football agency. 

Unofficial Partner is the leading podcast for the business of sport. A mix of entertaining and thought provoking conversations with a who's who of the global industry.
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James Emmett:

Hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I will start off by saying, hello everyone. Welcome to Unofficial Partner, Sports Business podcast with David and James Emmett from leaders that the impending two weeks to go. Leaders, you must be, be working

James Emmett:

is just, it's just over one week to go, Richard. We, we've, we've absolutely smashed through the two week barrier. and, and we're closing in on the one week barrier. but this is, this is quite a disorientating start to the podcast, Richard.'cause'cause traditionally we do, we do the beginning at the end, so it's.

Richard Gillis, UP:

do. But then I thought, well, why waste time? Why don't we just go straight in with a lovely, I'm a professional time waster.

David Cushnan:

apply to all elements of your, professional life. Why waste time?

Richard Gillis, UP:

I'm brilliant at it.

James Emmett:

Anyway, Richard, you're right. It's only just, a just over a week away to leaders week. And, you should not delay. If you want to pass to get in there, you mustn't delay. You mustn't waste time. There are only a few left. Get yourself in there.

Richard Gillis, UP:

stay

David Cushnan:

I have a live

James Emmett:

you've got a ticker, you've, you've got a ticker.

David Cushnan:

who is signing up. And honestly, you haven't, you're gonna miss out'cause everybody's there.

James Emmett:

Yeah. You keep doing, you keep doing rocket emojis, Dave? On the,

Richard Gillis, UP:

the aforementioned, uh, you know, the, uh, whatever it is. The, the up golden ticket. 15% off, still going off.

James Emmett:

yeah.

David Cushnan:

until the, the, the

Richard Gillis, UP:

I don't know. I mean, you're mad if you let that run. Absolutely. Doing, you know, at this point how that's still going, I don't know, but it's uh,

David Cushnan:

to.

Richard Gillis, UP:

the, what's your email address again? Leaders in leading sport.com. Is it

James Emmett:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

slash quote up 15 for your, uh, 15% off? I mean, that's,

David Cushnan:

sort of,

Richard Gillis, UP:

anyway,

David Cushnan:

a read out of him, James

Richard Gillis, UP:

we did. It was, that was sort of

James Emmett:

Just, just about,

David Cushnan:

Hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I was,

David Cushnan:

I was talking to, Laura McQueen in the office the other day. Our,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Ah,

David Cushnan:

know, our guiding light, uh,

Richard Gillis, UP:

the big cheese.

David Cushnan:

Yeah. Managing director. Very, very senior figure. And, um, we were talking about one of the new things that we've got this year at, uh, the summit, which is a, a little networking quiz, a little sort of pub quiz type thing at the end of day one for people if they want to do a little bit of extra networking in a relaxed environment. And we have been discussing, uh, the prizes that we can gather for that, um, as people are

Richard Gillis, UP:

I,

David Cushnan:

of

Richard Gillis, UP:

I love where this is going.

David Cushnan:

bear in mind we have over 2000 people, including commissioners, investors, some of the richest people in the world coming to the Allianz Stadium, tweaking them. And Laura genuinely suggested. As prize with Richard Gillis,

James Emmett:

You'd have to cook it for him. I'd say. I mean,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Five

James Emmett:

yeah.

David Cushnan:

absolutely

Richard Gillis, UP:

That is fantastic.

David Cushnan:

extraordinary. She says, it's just the first thing that came into my mind. Yeah,

Richard Gillis, UP:

See, that's why, that's why she's the boss of you two. She's thinking the big things. She's, she's

James Emmett:

think, I think she's so,

Richard Gillis, UP:

ideas.

James Emmett:

realistic. What's achievable? I think

Richard Gillis, UP:

What's affordable. It was me or Roger Goodall. Is it Goodall or Goodell?

James Emmett:

ever pronounce like, like Rin and Susanna Goodall.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I thought it was Goodall. I always called it Goodall. Is it Goodell?

James Emmett:

Yeah. Good mate.

Richard Gillis, UP:

But I, is that not like, a bit like sort of it's Farage Farage. It should be Farage, but we have la we have sort of lapsed into ferra. I'm not com I'm not comparing the two men, but yeah, exactly. I think there is a sort of flourish. And also Americans always over pronounced French word. I'm not saying goodell is a French word, but there's, I like it when American people want to appear sophisticated by Qua. I, and Stanley Tucci is very good on this in terms of over pronouncing Italian herbs. Oregano,

David Cushnan:

extraordinary start to the podcast. This even by our standards, this is

Richard Gillis, UP:

this is, this is a messy

James Emmett:

Isn't, um, isn't Stanley Tucci doing some sports stuff? Actually, didn't someone just hire him for something?

David Cushnan:

have hired him for the Olympics in Milan

James Emmett:

right. Yeah. Tucci Tucci is the new dog. Is he

David Cushnan:

correct?

James Emmett:

t doggy dog.

David Cushnan:

Yeah.

James Emmett:

Hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So having started with a me, a messy start talking about summits, I think

James Emmett:

And you were trying so hard. You were trying so hard to get it smooth.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah, I was,

James Emmett:

Hmm.

David Cushnan:

What's the, is this?

Richard Gillis, UP:

what, what this is, what's this, what's this happened? What's just happened is, is our look at the week in the sports business and we've got three stories. We bring a story each, we, we have to start, I've got a story about Jamie Red Knapps new, talent agency, which he is doing with m and c Saatchi. David Kushman is gonna be talking about the enhanced games. I think we have to start Summit Boy, fresh from the Cowa countryside. You try saying that when you're drunk. IMG, what is it? Butlin's Away Day.

James Emmett:

Yeah, something like that. Rich? Yes. no, I've just got back from the cots world. So soho farmhouse, where IMG and Redbird. were hosting the third edition of their IMG Redbird Summit. the theme as it always is, it seems was raising the game. Um, but essentially it's around about 120 folks, partners, clients, friends, of IMG and Redbird on.

Richard Gillis, UP:

just, just on the

James Emmett:

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, UP:

before you get

James Emmett:

yeah,

Richard Gillis, UP:

This week, there were three events were called Raise, rise, or

James Emmett:

It's tricky.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Game.

James Emmett:

We got, people need new words, don't they?

Richard Gillis, UP:

New Word. We need New

James Emmett:

Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, raising the game was the, the sort of theme rather than the title I'd suggest. Um, in any case. It's a pretty swanky offsite for, for, for partners and, friends and in my case, hangers on, of IMG. Yeah. Just for dear life, um, at Soho Farmhouse, which is, which is a lovely place to spend, some time. Um, a real, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you're gonna have to tick the expletive box there, Richard. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay.

James Emmett:

real kaleidoscope of characters, uh, CEOs of leagues, broadcasters, finance folk as well. there's a program, uh, sort of a traditional conferencing program, a real emphasis on media rights, value, future consumption habits, where this is all going, et cetera. And it's worth saying that. I mean, that's a natural fit for IMG and particularly off the back of the last sort of six to nine months, they've had IMG and their new parent company, TKO, have put together an extraordinary string of, deals in recent months. UFC and WWE have both secured fairly significant, some instances, kind of industry shifting deals with paramount, with Netflix, with ESPN and um.

Richard Gillis, UP:

say fairly significant is probably underplaying.

James Emmett:

Yeah, they're massive. They're massive. They're massive deals. Yeah, they're massive deals. Yeah. and, and the, the thing that sort of, yolks them all together is this, suggestion that perhaps pay-per-view as a, as a model for, uh, certainly fight sports is, is on the downer. reach and hard cash upfront seem to be much more popular, uh, at the moment. But IMG have also secured a few sort of, more under the radar, but nevertheless, significant deals. There's, there's one that they're particularly proud of, which is the renewal, which they did kind of without a process with Comm Bowl. which takes their, that they do all the commercialization for Comm Bowl, and they're doing that up to 20, 30 and beyond. And there seems to be, a, a consensus in the industry that. Commercially, at least, uh, football in South America is about to explode, so they're in a really good place. There. There were panels on cricket, on tennis, on football coverage, AI coming out the yin yang, of course. and

Richard Gillis, UP:

that the heading of the the

James Emmett:

then maybe next year, instead of raising the game, it's so AI coming out the yin yang.

Richard Gillis, UP:

That'll be, yeah. Yeah, the Yin Yang will be next

James Emmett:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

and yeah, I saw your mate, Derek Chang. Derek Bundle of Fun. Chang was there as

James Emmett:

Yes.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Formula

James Emmett:

Derek's great. Yeah. Yeah. There was a Formula one session as well. They dragged Flavio, Bri tore out from somewhere, to come and sit alongside Derek Chang.

Richard Gillis, UP:

What color is he at this

James Emmett:

He's still orange. but, he's, he's a very tall man. He's still got his blue specs on. and Al he is now an executive advisor to ine, which is owned by Reno. It's obviously Flavio's old team. he is something to do with them. Their headquarters is just down the road from Soho farmhouse. So he could have, he could have walked probably, of course he didn't. and.

Richard Gillis, UP:

that assumes that he's at the Reno headquarters a lot,

James Emmett:

I think he's,

Richard Gillis, UP:

which I

James Emmett:

I think he's sometimes there. He was very generously introduced by Brandon Snow on stage. Brandon Snow works for Redbird. now he's the CCO of Redbird, but he was at Formula One for a time, very generously introduced on stages. The man who's effectively running Alpine F1 now, and I thought he, at one stage he probably did. Poor Al Flavio. He's an old, he's an old man now. Um, but yeah, he was entertaining with Derek. Derek Chang is, is an extraordinary character. I, I reiterate. He is a bundle of fun. and.

Richard Gillis, UP:

something interesting. Derek Chang. I just caught,'cause one of the things, there was a lot of sort of quotes coming out of the farmhouse and one of the things was, there was a, something we've talked about on the bundle quite a bit, which is the sort of Apple formula. One question, and there's quite a good quote in there about, why the deal hasn't been signed yet. It's, you know, people were thinking it was gonna be signed ahead of. David will keep me honest here, but I think it was the Budapest Grand Prix. I think there was a, it was about a month ago, they were gonna announce it and they, it's, it's been interesting. They haven't announced it. And then he was talking about and he was saying from a 4 0 1 standpoint, the US is one of many markets. It's an important market'cause it's size and it's important market. Historically, we haven't penetrated it well, but we have more recently with the races in the US and drive to survive, et cetera, et

James Emmett:

Mm-hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

But It's interesting how slow that deal has been given People conflated it with the Apple movie and that was gonna be the sort of Tadda moment and it's seen as a very big thing in the whole development. And there's a story, which it may only be me pushing this story, that and, but you know, formula One, the Sale, Liberty, looking at selling Formula one, when do they do it? They do it when they sign a big American rights deal, blah, blah, blah. And it's interesting that they haven't coordinated that. So something is afoot, but interesting that Derek bundle of fun. But once he wrestled due to the ground and you stopped sort of playing with Derek, was there any, any sense of where that deal's going?

James Emmett:

Uh, I'm, I'm not sure whether it's, whether it's done to be honest. I, I, I sort of feel like the, the delay is because it's not finalized. I, I think the context of those quotes was, against what Mark Shapiro had said earlier in, earlier in the summit. Mark Shapiro, who's the president of TKO, kind of pointing to those major U-F-C-W-W deals, that they've done recently with huge financial values and he was sort of talking about the, the imperative for US based, sports business people to. Really push themselves to think about international properly because all of the economics, all of the dollars are in America. And it is way too easy to, um, to sort of over prioritize America because of that. But he, he sort of suggested that Formula One is one of very few entities that genuinely has, this kind of international spread where America is important but not the most important, of many, many markets. Uh, and Derek was sort of singing from the same hymn sheet there.

Richard Gillis, UP:

It used to be that and that we used to get a Formula One deck, and this is not, this is a while ago, but not that long ago, was that four markets made up 60 or 70% of the audience and it was so uk, Germany, Italy, and Brazil. And that was always the problem or the challenge and the opportunity that was presented in terms of the internationalization, obviously the, what Liberty had done brilliant is telling the American story and, and this deal very significant. But again, it's talks to actually exactly that what is it? The Formula One that I know grew up with the Formula One, that, you know the Formula One, that the image of it here is that the same product in the states and it's a much more exotic, marginal

James Emmett:

And, and, and although Formula One has done really well in recent years in America Drive to survive extra races, et cetera, et cetera, it's interesting when you just get down to the brass tacks of the numbers. And we had Brian Herps, uh, chief Media Officer at NASCAR on, on our podcast, last week or a couple of weeks ago, and he,

Richard Gillis, UP:

got a podcast, you two.

James Emmett:

yeah. Uh, it's called the Official Partner podcast, uh, Richard. No, it's called Leader's Worth Knowing. You should check it out. Um, and Brian was saying, I mean, he was very careful to say. Yeah, formula One done great. We welcome the competition, et cetera, et cetera. And, kudos to them for growing their average audience, uh, TV audience in the US from around about 600,000 for a race to about 1.2 million for a race. Well done for that. And then in the next breath, sort of explaining that NASCAR averages five or 6 million people for a race.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah. Yeah.

James Emmett:

Um, so NASCAR is still five or six times bigger than Formula One in terms of their, TV audience in America at least. Um,

Richard Gillis, UP:

I, I diverted you. Sorry. Let, let's just give us a sense of the farmhouse. people wanna know who

James Emmett:

yeah,

Richard Gillis, UP:

what happens? You go in

James Emmett:

you

Richard Gillis, UP:

I saw there's, there was

James Emmett:

all sign non-disclosure agreements, first of all. Yeah,

Richard Gillis, UP:

And then you run onto podcast. There's a Zoe

James Emmett:

yeah, yeah. Uhhuh.

Richard Gillis, UP:

schon who I think is really good, interesting person in that on LinkedIn. I've, I've followed her for a while and she was sending photos of the speaker kit. And I'm assuming James, you didn't get the speaker kit, did

James Emmett:

What's the,

Richard Gillis, UP:

the

James Emmett:

what's the speaker kit?

Richard Gillis, UP:

the, the, the gift bag

James Emmett:

This is so, a, so actually the, Adam Kelly, who's the president of IMG, and the man, I think it's his brainchild, this, um, and his summit, and he describes the goodie bags, has, has toolkits, which I think is a wonderful use of, uh, of language. Like you, you'll see that we've provided you with a toolkit to help you really take this all in. Um, and yeah, no,

David Cushnan:

What's in there?

James Emmett:

I don't know whether the speakers,

Richard Gillis, UP:

glasses,

James Emmett:

yeah. Facebook glasses, meta meta specs.

Richard Gillis, UP:

meta specs,

James Emmett:

Mm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

and,

James Emmett:

Bits and pieces.

Richard Gillis, UP:

It

David Cushnan:

A level beyond the, mini notebook and

Richard Gillis, UP:

notebook.

David Cushnan:

you might

Richard Gillis, UP:

and and chew gum that you get

James Emmett:

Yeah. Uh, do you, I mean, you'd be lucky to get a notebook on chewing gum, chewing gum's. Not a bad idea actually. no. I mean, there's classic sort of water bottles and t-shirts, et cetera, and, um, there's always something pretty special it seems. And I think the meta, the meta specs were that this year. But I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty exclusive in swanky, and inside soho House, yeah, it's. It's, it's good fun, isn't it? As you say, Richard, it's, uh,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Was there much drinking

James Emmett:

uh, adult beverages, the American school. Yeah, sure. Evening cocktail receptions, et cetera. I don't, I didn't see much daytime drinking, although, I did do a little podcast recording with Nick Khan, who's the president of, wwe e and, uh, I,

Richard Gillis, UP:

or game show? Did you ask him that question?

James Emmett:

sorry.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Did you ask him the sport or game show question?

James Emmett:

No, I, followed Martin Ross from Sport Business who just, who just talked to him for about half an hour. Uh, and I knew that Martin will have gone quite deep on, you know, pay-per-view is dead. Could you have squeezed another 500 grand out in this deal? Uh, and I thought, what is the complete antidote to that? So I focused for about 15 minutes on when precisely is the most appropriate time of day to start drinking, uh, with Nick Con. And at 11:00 AM it turns out.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Oh,

James Emmett:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

yes.

James Emmett:

there we go. yeah, it's nice to know Rich and, they do a really good job, the IMG folks of, uh, having conference programming, but also having time for socializing and other activity. Um, there was a knitting masterclass with Tom Daly. There were tennis coaches. Um, there was a wonderful, Spanish chap teaching people how to play paddle. Um, and then, yeah, there's, there's lovely dinners and drinks and entertainment. Sophie Ellis Beter getting, getting everyone up on the, the dance floor. There was a man who

Richard Gillis, UP:

you're disappointed if she doesn't sing, uh, the, uh, her hit,

David Cushnan:

And what's the name?

James Emmett:

of course, of course, of course you are Richard. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

and this is from my new

James Emmett:

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Oh,

James Emmett:

I'm gonna be doing an hour of, of new things.

Richard Gillis, UP:

yeah.

James Emmett:

Uh, no. There was a chap who's, I mean, he's a, he's a magician really. Uh, but, calls himself a mentalist. Uh, and he did a little turn and it was,

Richard Gillis, UP:

we use that term anymore?

James Emmett:

apparently he can, but it was pretty spectacular. And he had a variety of people up on stage to humiliate. um, John Miller, uh, who runs sport at NBC was up with him, for some time, and took it all in very good spirit, I would say.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So what was he, was it a sort of, um, putting on under some sort of spell and making him do and say silly things? Is that, was that, was

James Emmett:

I don't think he's putting him under a spell and he didn't make him say silly things. He, he

Richard Gillis, UP:

hypnotism is

James Emmett:

is bitch.

Richard Gillis, UP:

word I'm looking for.

David Cushnan:

a.

James Emmett:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

It's a bit less Harry Potter, but bit more,

James Emmett:

Sort of snake, snake, charming.

Richard Gillis, UP:

is.

James Emmett:

no. All very impressive. I think everyone had a good time. Yeah. Um, should I give you a couple of tidbits, interesting bits from the stage? so Mo Gdat was there, the man who, used to run, well, it's chief business officer at Google, and he's written a book about happiness and sort of the science of happiness, but he, he was awfully credible blood pressure, raising the credible about, a, about ai. and the precise moment at which AI takes over. From humans, which he predicts will be in 2027. and he cannot see a future beyond 2037. and, his only hope for humanity. He does believe we'll get to a place of sort of utopia. but he, he thinks we need human good to save us. and he was followed by a session, with Alistair Campbell and Mike Pompeo, just sort of sniping at each other, which we did, which didn't do much for the old, the hope and human good.

David Cushnan:

Yeah.

James Emmett:

the.

David Cushnan:

you program as a program, as somebody thinks about programming, where do you put the session that talks about No Future after 2037 on a program? Is that start of day, end of day, the after lunch slot.

James Emmett:

Well, he was responding to a question from the audience. they had done a session earlier in the day about sort of vision 2050 real future gazing stuff. And someone had sort of, referred back to that and he, he took a moment to think and then he said, well, I don't think we'll get to 2050. I think 2037 is the, is the, the final moment at which we can possibly predict what might happen. It's not that we'll

Richard Gillis, UP:

okay,

James Emmett:

die.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I'm all for this. I'm all for punchy headlines, but I think, you know, sort of, beware people selling books

James Emmett:

Mm-hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

talking about the

James Emmett:

Mm-hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

but let's, it's a nice, it's, it is interesting thing.

David Cushnan:

do you see a future after 2037?

Richard Gillis, UP:

Uh, I'm pleased that I wake up every morning, frankly, at this point. So, you know, yes, I made it through. a, What was I gonna say? I was gonna say something about, there's a link here, I think, David, to your,

David Cushnan:

Mm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

your bit, which I think we'll go, go to. But just to finish that off, it's quite interesting, the breadth of the people there and also the subject matter,

James Emmett:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

we come at it through a sports lens and I was fed a load of sort of sports related things and obviously that's a central bit of it, but it's quite interesting that, you know, Alistair Campbell and Mike, what his name, what was it? Mike

James Emmett:

Mike Pompeo,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Pompeo.

James Emmett:

Pompeo.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah. Did Mark Shapiro, did I see him say that he wants to do it in America, or is that gonna.

James Emmett:

Yeah, that's the plan. they've done three years of it now at soho Farmhouse, and I think the intention is to take it to the us. I think they wanna take it to New York. I'm not sure whether that is dependent or not on whether there is a Soho farmhouse opening in New York, but Yeah, that is,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Right.

David Cushnan:

could see in the Hamptons, couldn't you? Somewhere like that.

James Emmett:

yeah, well, I'm, I'm pretty sure they wanna put it in. So there's a sort of thin slice of Connecticut where all of these massive media execs including Mark Shapiro, live, and I think that is that kind of area is where they're thinking.

Richard Gillis, UP:

that is pretty well. I love, I like that bit of area. I mean, if ever I got Shapiro's salary, I, that's where I would

James Emmett:

Mm-hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

somewhere around Westport. It's very nice.

James Emmett:

I think he's mainly a, I think he's mainly a dividends guy now.

Richard Gillis, UP:

di dividends guy. I wanna be a dividends guy. Right. let's jump to David because I think the thread there is, the end of humanity and.

David Cushnan:

Here we go.

Richard Gillis, UP:

We are gonna talk about the enhanced games, but.

David Cushnan:

Which has been around for, a couple of years as an idea, as a concept. But, this week, American Sprinter the World, a hundred meter Champion, 2022. Fred Curley, I think he got a bronze medal in the a hundred meters in Paris last year. Fred Curley became the most high profile athlete yet to join will be the first edition of the enhanced Games, which will take place, I think over four days next May in Las Vegas. So this is the enhanced games where essentially athletes are able to take performance enhancing substances. There's no testing. Last week, British swimmer Ben Proud, said he was joining and he's a 30-year-old. Um, you know, in the middle of his career, again, an Olympic medalist, you know, hard to call it momentum, but two, reasonably, you know, accomplished athletes, very accomplished athletes, not household names necessarily deciding to join up, this first edition. Worth noting as we'll get to that, Fred Curley is currently suspended for, alleged anti-doping whereabouts violation, and is not competing in the World Athletics Championships. The bigger picture is the enhanced games. has a guy called Aaron De Sousa, an Australian businessman. It's always an Australian businessman, isn't it? who's the, the guy behind this? investors include, Peter Thiel, the, the tech

Richard Gillis, UP:

Teal

David Cushnan:

Is it Thiel or Thiel?

Richard Gillis, UP:

Teal.

David Cushnan:

And, the investment company, oh, look at this, uh, belonging to Donald Trump Jr. and they are trying to pitch this as some sort of big important worthy medical experiment, really, to see how far the human body can be optimized. Obviously, um, a group of people, and I would suspect the majority of people listening, the majority of people who work in the sports industry, who would see this as pretty reckless, downright dangerous potentially, and making a bit of a nonsense of. Fair competition of sporting integrity, which I guess we can all get sometimes a bit high handed about, but is still pretty fundamental to the whole business model of sport. Aaron Dusa says that the enhanced games is renovating the Olympic model for the 21st century an era of accelerating technological and scientific change. The world needs a sporting event that embraces the future, particularly advances in medical science. And they are really clear that substances will be disclosed. There will be health profiling, all be supervised, but there will be no doping tests. So I think it could work. then I'm gonna tell you why it won't.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay.

David Cushnan:

There's a moment in time here. I think I'm kind of hinting, you know, building on what you were hinting at there, Richard, this sort of idea of super strength, supersize, supercharge Trump, high performance sort of culture of optimizing your of optimizing your lifestyle, long you can live. get up at 3:00 AM to go to the gym and work out and I've done a day's work by the time are waking up this sort of,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Jake Humphrey Lifestyle.

David Cushnan:

but, but even more extreme. I think this sort of

Richard Gillis, UP:

More extreme than Jake Humphrey is.

David Cushnan:

you know, extreme, high performance culture that some people like to adopt and like to tell us about on LinkedIn.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Mm-hmm.

David Cushnan:

I think you have to say that this is something that if it happens when it happens. Could have the potential to create some viral moments in a viral world, that's probably quite handy. And there's an economic piece here because there's big prize money being put up for this. So$500,000 per event, a million dollar bonus if you break a, a world record. for the 2026 competition. Ben proud the swimmer is actually saying that he if he wins an enhanced games competition, he will earn as much as he would have won if he'd won the world championships 13 years in a row. So there's, there's a, for certain athletes, even if it means trashing your reputation, trashing your credibility in the sort of traditional sporting world, there is money, there's financial reward on offer here that they can't get anywhere else. Why it won't work. 9.58 famously is the a hundred meters men's world record. If somebody takes a load of stuff and runs 9.57, to me, it doesn't feel like a big enough jump. It's not an interesting enough jump to make people really

Richard Gillis, UP:

Five seconds or I'm not interested.

David Cushnan:

Yeah, but totally. Like if somebody's, if you know

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

David Cushnan:

you somebody's, if you're served up a clip that says somebody has just run a hundred meters in 7.5 seconds, you are gonna watch. But

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

David Cushnan:

clearly that's not gonna happen. And also from a, you know, with this whole thing is sort of about artificial enhancement. who on earth is timing this, who, you know, who is gonna be the official timekeeper? Because if the whole business model rests on blasting through world records and showing exactly what the human body could do, if you tune it and feed it with stuff that you shouldn't

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

David Cushnan:

it with, if you don't break any records, you've got, you know, you undermine the whole business. And so will we be able to believe the times here? It feels like to me there's scope for manipulation, there's scope for, you know, fiddling the timings on this. And, uh, that's why ultimately I don't think this has a chance.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay. Right. Interesting. Mentioned Peter Thiel, and I think it's worth just pausing him for a moment because my sense of this, there's a few threads in here, which. Before we get to him, there's a, things that get people excited and there's a few tidbits in there about, a, a sort of anti voice to the Olympic movement. A bit of it, which is unlimited potential. It is part of the, disruption question. So you've got all the, you know, the, the words that people congregate around it and it's useful and interesting to ask questions about development, whether or not the status quo is getting in the way of human development, whether or not, other things could be done. I'm someone who, on a fairly regular basis, questions the IOC and the Olympic movement and its impact on the world because it's very central to lots of different sports, both culturally but also economically. So there's a whole load of stuff in there, which we can have quite an interesting conversation about. then get to Peter Thiel, I think what I see in this is that all of that is just sort of confection a noise. This is a tiny side project for him. He, he's one of the world's richest men, and certainly one of the most powerful, one of the initial investors in PayPal is a sort of Musk PayPal, but also an early Facebook, investor. So, but someone who is sort of sitting behind a great deal of what we're seeing more broadly. The story being that JD Vance is his guy. He's in the White House because of Teal. And that's the link to the Trump. Fund and, their involvement in this, if you sort of poke into teal, you get to some fairly murky stuff about transhumanism, which is, you know, again, an idea that been around for a very long time, but has been resurrected by a sort of, know, very rich Silicon Valley people who are, who are just interested in ideas. A lot of it is bit of sci-fi. They're all Lord of the Rings of readers. And a lot of it is to do with what if we just weren't human in the same way as we know it. And whether or not technology will be a be an answer to the questions. So he advocates radical transformation where your human natural body gets transformed into an immortal body positioning transhumanism as compatible with Christianity through the concept of transcendence. The enhance game serves as a public laboratory for this philosophy, normalizing chemical enhancement as a pathway to human optimization. A lot of it, when you, again, get into some of the detail of it, and I don't recommend you read ane Rand's fountain head because it, uh, it's just, it's very tedious. But a lot of the stuff that this is about has its beginnings in that, that book, teal famously stated that I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible. He views mass democracy as potentially destructive to innovation, and he explicitly accepts a technologically enhanced elite emerging separate from the general population. You're saying, right, okay. If this is, and, and quite often you get to a, to the Overton window in these types of conversations, Joseph Overton was a political scientist in the seventies. It was all about what do you do when you've got a set of ideas and you want to move them into the mainstream? And we saw a lot of this in relation to Brexit and Trump and it takes relentless amounts of marketing, the ownership of news, social media is perfect for this. It makes, otherwise, or previously ideas that were seen as marginal and, and a bit mad in terms of the mainstream, shift them into the, into the middle. And uh, and you know, that's, that's going on all the time, all day, every day. This is a sort of sporting version of that, and I can sort of see that. If we move this thing, if this is the vehicle by which we can then move these ideas into the center of conversation, and we have podcasts like this, discussing them, that's the beginning of, okay, well there is a, a body of people who might really like this. And as that body gets bigger and bigger, they're able to sort of, talk about it in a more sensible, coherent, open way. So I think this is a sort of front, he owns Palantir, which is a sort of operating system for war and death. So he's got other things on his mind. But this is interesting because it's probing and poking the official sport. And a lot of, and again, I wrote about, I don't wanna plug my news, but I wrote about the Olympics and the IOC standing for a particular set of values. which Peter Thiel doesn't much like them. And he, you know, he's someone who called Greta Thunberg the antichrist, and so progressive ideas, which the IOC, a lot of them are wrapped into the, their mission statements an absolute, the enemy of Peter Thiel. So I could see why you would create a sort of Antichrist Olympics to begin with. And then if you've got enough money, you keep it going. And over time, maybe you start to then bring the ideas that are couched within that vehicle out to play. And so this is a very, well, you have to keep an eye on it. I think I agree with you completely that your initial response is, this is stupid. And, you know, and no one's gonna go for this. It will be interesting to see who comes outta the ether and supports it.

David Cushnan:

you think they'll use the antichrist line when they're pitching it to Coca-Cola?

Richard Gillis, UP:

Well, you know, Coca-Cola invest in some strange things. There's a there, you know, if he wanted to pursue that. a stage further, one of the, you mentioned Aaron Dusa, he's frame, he frames, performance enhancing drugs using the sort of libertarian rhetoric. are adults and they have a right to do with their body what they wish my body, my choice. And obviously that's appropriating reproductive rights and the whole abortion, subject, particularly looking at America, that is an absolute trigger subject in the, culture war left and right. You suddenly become, that becomes a whole different thing.

James Emmett:

Just to ignore the, and, it's a very far reaching bit of, commentary that you've just, given there, Richard. Um, but to put the moral compass bit to one side for a second and where it's all going, the Olympics or sort of athletic competitions that the enhanced games are designed to, um. Go up against to provide, a different, an an alternative to, they, they are competing in the same, in the same pool. You know, the, the Olympics already are in enhanced games, that they're run, that they have WADA running their anti-doping, providing anti-doping guidelines. Those guidelines, the substances that are within the wider code, exactly how much you are permitted to have in your body, of any of those substances at any one time. That changes every year as science progresses, as the understanding of what human bodies can do, changes. The Olympics are already run to the set to, to the, to the, the same sort of guideline that is, there are a list of, allowed substances that you can put in your body up to safe and fair limits as dictated by water. And the, and Dave, you mentioned in your, um, explanation of this, that the enhanced games aren't gonna do, drugs tests. Well, I think that they have actually said that they are gonna have some doping control measures, and they do have a list of approved substances. They're not going with WADA's list, they're going with the US' FDA list of basically what, what someone can legally take. So you can't get someone jumped up on, on cocaine or whatever on, in this, but it's just, it, it, it is the same set of.

Richard Gillis, UP:

good

James Emmett:

It's the same set of rules that they're abiding by. It is just that the Olympics are using a code which is tried and tested and is in place to provide safety to people, and fairness. And the enhanced games is gonna use a different one, which isn't in there, which isn't, is not set up to provide safety to athletes.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I think it's a really, really good, good point. Because again, it, it's, you then get back to the sort of COVID, anti-vax conversations and you start to say, right, where is the line? And you know, who controls the line and what is fair, what isn't? I'm wearing a pair of glasses. Is that an enhancement? You start to have those types of conversations,

James Emmett:

you've gotta have, you've gotta have a, you've gotta have rules. It's a competition. You've gotta have rules and someone's gotta set the rules.

Richard Gillis, UP:

and who sets them and why they set them and have they their own agenda. See, we're doing, we're doing Peter Teal's work for him.

David Cushnan:

I think the more practical challenge that they will have is getting a bunch of. Either recognizable or halfway decent athletes to do this. You know, you need enough, a lot of athletes to create a, um, you know, an athletics competition, a sort of, you know,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

David Cushnan:

Olympics multi-sport thing. So, they haven't revealed how many athletes they've got yet. We are getting individual announcements. Um, so ultimately at a really practical level, it will sort of live or die by how much of an impact that first, that first event makes. And from a sort of, to sort of, if it is about shifting the dial, as you say, in terms of the, the broader conversation, they do need to make a massive impact at those first one, the first events in Vegas. They need some records to be absolutely obliterated. Otherwise, you know what, what, what, what was the point

Richard Gillis, UP:

There's two things. One, if I'm an athlete and I'm looking, I'm out there in, you know, in the world championships this week, what are my options? Where am I going? Particularly if I'm looking at 30, or I'm on the other side of 30, this is, you know, a, a great deal of money. And the there's, you know, quotes around, well, this is more money than I've ever made in my career for, you know, breaking a record or whatever. So on an individual basis, I absolutely get it. The alternative being, gonna put my trust in Michael Johnson's new thing. I don't get paid. I've turned up trained, put all my focus in that sort of event, and suddenly looks like the money either wasn't there or it's not in the same way as it as it was promised initially. So what do I do? I'm now stuck. I'm back at the world. Championships suddenly appears and thinks, okay, well there's a, there's a huge check here. I've spent my money, I spent my life being an athlete, and I'm feel very unrewarded for all of that compared to other and other places that I could, could have, uh, focused my attention. The other bit is on the commercial side of it, we talked about Coca-Cola, but I think if you look at the journey of cannabis over the last 20 years you're now looking at companies, well, that a category that I would then say, right, okay, I'm going to. Sponsor this, this is a legitimate product that's gone from talking about Overton windows that's gone from being marginal to something that the NHS is prescribing or is about to. So, you know, that all of those things and your, you know, back to James's point is that the line is somewhere and it's really interesting and important to push that line. point being, I don't like where he wants the line to go, but I might be wrong. I might, this might be a, a, you know, a sort of open-hearted view of humanity that okay, we are, we are looking at improving humanity is. I think the Olympics already does that I suspect the motives of the money behind it. So that's, you know, and again, it's always useful I think to have a starting point and reveal your starting point and your sort of prior assumptions on things. And, and happy to be challenged and cha, you know, change my mind over time on these things. Um.

David Cushnan:

There is also the question of whether we're actually talking about a, a new sports event here, or actually just a Netflix show. Ultimately, that's, that's sort of effectively a, a behind the scenes documentary of how far an athlete can push themselves.

James Emmett:

Do you know, do you know any of the execs involved in the enhanced games and whether those execs. would end up as pariahs as you'd imagine the athletes that are involved in it and might sort of try to come crawling back.

David Cushnan:

need, you're gonna need an a sort of operating team, aren't you

James Emmett:

Of course. Yeah. Yeah,

David Cushnan:

wanna do this? I don't actually know off the top of my head, if any of those execs have revealed themselves or what their sort of background is or where they're coming from. But if they do want this to be a a, a sort of, you know, a proper sports event, you're definitely gonna need a few.

James Emmett:

yeah. Well, I know a couple of them and so do you Dave? No, probably not the best idea to name them, but I should imagine that they haven't thought about it in quite the Peter deal. Aim Rand, depth that Richard has.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Wow. Who has, who's got the time to do that? These people have got jobs, right? Let us move on. Oh, I'm saying this like it is one of you. It's now my story, isn't it? So I've picked on a story, it came through this week and peaked my interest. It is, former Liverpool and Tottenham midfielder, Jamie Red Knapp, a new football talent agency backed by former England and Liverpool Midfielder. and they don't mention spurs there in the, press release. Unbelievable. Jamie Red Knapp has been launched with the aim of reshaping the way players are represented. MNC Sarchi Football unveiled today brings together red snap's long running management group. MNC Sarchi Talent Lawyer udo on a former. player and partner at the London firm law firm, Bray and cre. the pair say that the agency's focus will be on championing the person behind the player building careers that extend beyond the pitch. Okay. So there's a couple of the, the reason I picked on this, and, and this is a, a shorter piece, but there's a sort of micro macro question here. When I looked at that, I thought, oh, that's interesting.'cause I know that Jamie Red Nat has been a long time of MNC ce and is obviously, you know, people know him off the Telly's Sky got a very successful post playing career, almost like the model of a post playing career. And his relationship with Mc Atch, he's, he's very good mates with, Steve Martin who has left sort of in, you know, fairly acrimoniously with, with and set up MSQ. Sport and entertainment and that's on. So it's interesting that he's, you know, doing it with m and c Saatchi. The relationship, I think, with Richard Thompson I think is very interesting. So the Richard Thompson is the chair of m and c Saatchi, and was, business was Merlin, which they then initially sold I think in 2013 into, m and c Sarchi, sport and Entertainment, or into m and c Sarchi, which became m and c Sarchi talent. It's a sort of, family tree thing going on there. But that was sold. Richard Thompson had, I think 60% of that business, he sold and made one and a half million, himself. So that's, now. Still the chair of the company, but comes with that background. So it's a, it's a deep knowledge and understanding of, of fame and, rise of the athlete as brand. All of those questions that we talk about a lot like this, he's obviously now chair of the ECB, um, England Wales Cricket Board and formerly chair of Surrey Cricket. So chairs in ikea. But he is obviously a very smart, able and bright bloke and you can see here, you've got a good public face to this business. So Jamie Redna, then you get to the the macro of it, which I think again is equally interesting. It feels like a business which is being set up, almost to be bought by George Pine. So. You've got brewing capital over the last, let's call it 18 months maybe. Let's just see what they've up to. So there's a sort of consolidation in the player athlete agency marketplace brewing capital 310 million euros. They bought as one or as one soccer agency, Providence Equity into Wasserman. So you've got private equity money interested in this space. Why? And there's an obvious reason is that this is where the money is ending up. So. Where you've got a lot of the conversation at the top end, people investing into leagues and teams, that money quite quickly flows through those entities the pockets of players and the agents and the a the players, this generation of players obviously very wealthy, that is creating a whole new market for liquidity at the bottom of the sort of, funnel and where is that money gonna go. And that money becomes sort of liquidity for things like tech investments and, you know, wearable investments, but also into other teams buying up TGL franchises, live franchises, buying minority partnerships into Formula One teams. All of this stuff that, again, we talk about a lot, you can sort of follow the money down and, and one of the questions is, okay, well how do we capture that? a player agency. Is quite a useful entity for them to be able to do that. So I think on a small version, you know, the micro story is interesting for people in the sort of British London centric, sports marketing world in terms of, okay, well that we were sort of immediately joining the dots in terms of what's happening. But I also think that, and you know, it's a fairly obvious point to make is that the, out the, the road or the, the intended road to travel of this business, still very early days and projecting onto it, it's only been going a week. I can see why they're doing it and I can see if they get a client base, which is sort of starry enough and, and valuable enough, and that'll be red map's job presumably to, to locate, the talent they can then bring in all sorts of, you know, other services that they can then bring in to, uh, you know, help their clients at slight. The, the, the challenges will be, That the agency market, there's, there's a few conflicts of interest. It was always IMG always used to have to answer the question, you know, well, why do we always end up with your client, your talent? Because, you know, so if O2 come into M and c Atch and say we wanna do a football campaign, they will say, yeah, why don't you use one of our players? And it was all, you know, IMG always used to be, you know, the answer's. Colin Montgomery. Now what's the question or the answer's? Tiger Woods. What's the question? If you've got a stake in the player and you are looking to build commercial value in the player, don't be surprised if they are up as the, the talent for your adver ad campaign. That's always agency politics and if you have got a talent agency, you defend it one way. If you haven't, you attack it. that lens. So all of that is just, you know, normal stuff. Then there's the bit about how many players sell tickets. That's the other question here, and there's a, that's a, that's the bigger question in terms of management of footballers is a bit of a ball lake. If you ask football agents, they're always moaning. They're, you know, the players always, mind you, they always want more. They want their booking flights and doing all the management stuff is really boring, low level grunt work, and not many of them are em, MBA and Namar. So you've got a relatively small group of players who are just sort of there for the ride or be it are a cost base versus the ones, the superstars that are gonna generate enormous amounts of revenue for you In terms of your glitzy campaigns and all of that stuff. If you look at, Sonny, the Great Spurs player, his value to Spurs, and Turnstile Gemba did a bit of work. About the IP value of Spurs globally, and you look at the proportion of that that was attributable to Sony as a global brand. Obviously talking to the Korean market particularly was enormous. So they've got a huge lever and they do, someone like him needs someone like MNC Sarge or someone else to have those negotiations and get fair value for their impact that they're having on contracts. So I can absolutely see it. It's a really good idea. you compare that to someone like James Madison, it's not a like, for like comparison because James Madison is a, you know, is a good footballer, but he doesn't bring a whole marketplace to, to bear. Um, and it doesn't help that he's made of sort of ssar wood. there's a, there's a, by the way, what is Bolser? I mean, I haven't heard, I haven't used the word bolser wood for a long time since Mr. Kaplan in my, uh, in my, um, woodworking, uh, class.

David Cushnan:

I was asked to describe it, I'm gonna say a.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I think it's a thin but quite light, but quite strong wood. Mr. Kaplan used to say, get away from the BALs of wood. Put the BALs of wood down'cause it would be break. It was so easily breakable. And the other thing about Mr. Kaplan, while we were on him, he was a sort of, in my end of school report, he praised me for my chaing. And I was, I was obsessed with sha. He said, oh, you know, and I think, how little did he have to talk about how little did he know me as a woodworker to be, you know, part of the end of year report. that's me.

James Emmett:

They're, they're quite, they're quite big trees. S Rich, I've just got a picture of one up here now.

Richard Gillis, UP:

But why are they so flimsy?

James Emmett:

It was very popular material for light stiff structures in model bridge tests, model buildings.

Richard Gillis, UP:

a lot of model making.

James Emmett:

Hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Bolsa Wood.

James Emmett:

Yeah.

David Cushnan:

I was, quite surprised to learn that, MNC didn't have a football division. if I can, if I can swing the conversation back to, I

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yes.

David Cushnan:

you were talking about, which was, this new Jamie Reapp agency. So the other thing that I thought when I read this was, uh, former footballer, you know, pretty good footballer, well-known, had a wife who was a pop star Probably not the absolute top tier of punditry, but, you know, well-known, starts feels really, it felt really quaint to me. Like it was a sort of story from 20

Richard Gillis, UP:

yeah,

David Cushnan:

almost in a, in a world where we become so used to, oh, Ryan Reynolds has started this or bought into this, as you say. So, what.

Richard Gillis, UP:

sketches poster boy for sketches.

David Cushnan:

true.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I.

David Cushnan:

is true. What I would, I I think what you say about it may be being created to be sold is there's probably something in that. And there is, I, I wouldn't underplay actually as well, the, and I know this is MNC talent as opposed to MNC sports, MC Saatchi Sports and Entertainment. there, I would suggest there is a bit of sort of recalibration of, you know, how MNC views sport and where it plays in sport given Steve Martin and, you know, several executives have, have moved on, over recent years. So that's, that. I think that is an interesting bit in terms of the, you know, the sort of inside industry, piece of this. But, I. I, I just, yeah, I, I, my, my overriding feeling was this just all felt a little bit quaint, and I'm sure it'd be, I'm sure it'd be fine, and I'm sure it'd be a really good business, but I, it didn't feel to me like something that was, that, you know, felt massively exciting. I was quite surprised you chose it as a story. Richard, if I'm honest,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Well, no, I'm taken.

David Cushnan:

what I will say is, is in the, in the quotes, and I had to work quite hard to find the quotes, so I'm clearly on the wrong mailing list, is, um, Jamie Redna did talk about mentoring as a, as a bit of this, so what you were saying about not everybody's a name are, or a Messi, or Ronaldo,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

David Cushnan:

is, it suggests to me that they are gonna go in at the, at the younger, they're gonna try and find the talent rather than sign the.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So just on that, and that's an interesting pushback because part of Merlin or MNC, tale, M and Cs, TALEN is a social media talent agency and they were quite early to that. And so you have a whole load of people, a lot of sort of beauty, fashion, and parenting bloggers, vloggers, tiktoks on roster and. You skew that, push that into football again, you get to, young social first YouTube meets, football there. So it's a different sort of fame. It's not a

David Cushnan:

get to Kings League and Baller League

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's a direction. Again, the, the, the other bit to it is, how you then, the other one I really like is the dog father. They got on their roster. So it's a broad church on there. So it is a, is, you know, the telegraph causing one of the great dog trainers. So that influencer marketplace, when you put football in.

David Cushnan:

I've gotta jump in talking about.

Richard Gillis, UP:

There's a guy, and I forget his name, but he's, he's written a book and he's called the dog Father, and he's a, he's,

James Emmett:

One of the great dog trades

Richard Gillis, UP:

one of the,

James Emmett:

of our, of our time and any.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Telegraph. And they, you know, the Daily Telegraph, you know, love it and hate it. They know dog training excellence when they see it. So when you see that name and, you know, that's not just any, bit of puffery.

James Emmett:

Richard,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yes.

James Emmett:

Yourman Thompson old, Richard Thompson was, with me at the, the farmhouse this week.

Richard Gillis, UP:

that.

James Emmett:

Um, he's actually on a list I've made, in titles. People who are taller than you think, um, because he's a very tall man.

Richard Gillis, UP:

He is a very tall man. I, I, he used to go to the Mc Saatchi Golf Day and he used to play with Jamie Thon

James Emmett:

Mm-hmm. Oh, two, two absolute giants.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Absolute Giants and Matthew Tissier, of which again, so the, the combined height of which was, was substantial.

James Emmett:

Letizia must have been, tiny in comparison to those two. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

was tiny, but he had lots of sort of, interesting political views.

James Emmett:

Tall tails. Um, yeah, so Richard Thompson was at the IMG Redbird Summit, and I didn't talk to him about this Jamie Redna thing, but Jerry Cardinal had a session. Joe Cardinal, who runs Redbird. He, he did a session with, um, Jamie Red Knapps, sky Sports colleagues who are also on that CBS show. So, Micah Richards, Anyway, Jerry, basically, Jerry can't open his mouth without, putting forward some sort of articulate investment thesis.

Richard Gillis, UP:

you love ge, you

James Emmett:

I love him. I love him, I love him. So I honestly think he's gonna be the most significant figure in our era of sports, media business, and I love him. but he said, he said.

Richard Gillis, UP:

I love him.

James Emmett:

That, one of the things that he's constantly on the lookout for is talent. That is, uh, that transcends its world, that he believes he can move into our world. And what I'm sure what he means by our world is the world of sort of plug and play financial vehicles, move them out of what they're used to doing into something else, build a business around them. And he thinks these folks on the CBS show, um, are that, whether Jamie Redna is talent that transcends his boundaries. Uh, I'm not sure.

Richard Gillis, UP:

though, I think that, that this is a signal that Jamie Red Knapps role on the sofa may be coming to an end. I think there's a sort of next generation of Jamie Red Knapps. I think this is a sort of smart move by Jamie Redna. I keep saying stop saying Jamie Redna, but there is

James Emmett:

Red Map is one of these words that will very quickly lose meaning. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

but I think mentoring, if I was a shareholder in, m and c Saatchi, I would sort of pare down the mentoring. I don't think there's much money in mentoring, but I do think there's a, you know, I can see why you would lead on it in terms of being the, the front of the message to the players,

David Cushnan:

talking of Red Naps. I Google Jamie Red Knapp, to prepare. Imagine that for this.

Richard Gillis, UP:

the research that goes into this,

David Cushnan:

and I discovered it's been a very big week for the Red Naps because Harry Redna has a new job as well. Are, are you aware of this? Have you seen this?

Richard Gillis, UP:

no.

David Cushnan:

Harry Redna has joined the management team of Speedway Futures, the organizing and operating body for British Speedway. And, uh, the press release reads Redna 78. Enjoyed a stellar career as player manager, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he will be, He will be leveraging his commercial and media contacts for the benefit of British Speedway and actively raising the sports profile through all his connections as part of the management team.

James Emmett:

So Harry Edna lives famously down in Sandbanks and in pool. And pool is one of the, uh, few destinations where there is a British Speedway, uh, track.

David Cushnan:

Oh, James.

James Emmett:

and Oh, you, I, I'm.

David Cushnan:

talks about this in his quote, I only live a few miles from Pool Stadium and back in the day I often took my boys Mark and the aforementioned Jamie to the Speedway to watch the Brave Daredevils in action, and it still is the great evening out that it always was. I love it. It's a fantastic, exciting watch and must be the rawest form of motor sport in the world. I know once people go, they will want to keep going back. TNT are getting great audiences for the live events, and I really want to be part of making Speedway huge again. That is certainly my aim.

James Emmett:

Great.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So a couple of things there. I think, I would love to know whether Harry Redner, um, wrote that press or, you know, said those things, but wonder if living next to a Speedway Track gives you, skews your view of the commercial value of Speedway. Um, because

James Emmett:

Almost certainly. I mean, it was the talk of the time. I li I lived in pool for a little bit, Richard, and honestly, you cannot move for Speedway fans. Let everyone's dressed in their favorite Speedway

Richard Gillis, UP:

Well,

James Emmett:

bike outfit.

Richard Gillis, UP:

say this on this pocket, I'm older than you, and Speedway was one of those sports which dominated Saturday afternoons grandstand, Frank Boff. People don't talk about Frank Boff much anymore, but Speedway, Ivan, major, it was brilliant. It's so exciting and it was really great to go and it's a brilliant thing, but obviously it's one of those sports that has declined and, and, uh, yeah. Good on Harry for, uh, getting behind it.

David Cushnan:

I have been trying to work

Richard Gillis, UP:

Enhanced. Enhanced Speedway. I watch that.

David Cushnan:

Nice. I you've brought it. That's,

Richard Gillis, UP:

see what I did,

David Cushnan:

best in the business.

James Emmett:

What would they do? Not sand, but lava or something like that.

David Cushnan:

are you gonna call this episode?

Richard Gillis, UP:

by giraffes.

David Cushnan:

call this episode? Because, uh, we have made, I mean, will Mr. Kaplan or the, was it the dog father

Richard Gillis, UP:

The dog father? No, I, I'm keeping, I I took your note from the first series of this, uh, this series. I obviously was playing fast and loose with the, with the headings. And I remember the one that we did for the, IM last year's IMG, uh, farm. get together. Didn't go down Well, but I won't, we won't re repeating that. This is gonna be straight down the middle. I'm selling this big, I'm going with, so the headlines will be, now what's the thing? So we've had end

David Cushnan:

something like this.

Richard Gillis, UP:

of,

David Cushnan:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

end of humanity, the dog father

David Cushnan:

You're going with the dog father,

Richard Gillis, UP:

and the Return of Speedway. No, I won't. I the dog father Will, will sort of follow. He can't lead. He's not, he's not big enough to lead,

David Cushnan:

and this is

Richard Gillis, UP:

no pun intended.

David Cushnan:

on all good podcast platforms. Is it?

Richard Gillis, UP:

Most of them. I think we had a good call with Spotify this week and they, they said we're not doing enough promotion on Spotify. So, uh, you know, can't please everyone. We're big. We're big. We're big with Apple. Apparently. We're big. Apple is. Apple is, uh, is the heartland. Spotify is trailing, but you know, Spotify trying hard. We'll see more on that soon,

James Emmett:

Thanks, Richard.

Richard Gillis, UP:

It's come to the end.