UP516 Smart Recruitment: The Brentford Model, in partnership with Indeed

The story of Brentford is one of the most interesting and quoted case studies in European football over the last decade. The west London club been transformed on and off the pitch, from being saved from extinction by its own fans to a new era under the ownership of entrepreneur Matthew Benham. 
The club was promoted to the Premier League in 2021, marking a return to the top flight after 74 years. Since then, it has become the go-to case study for smart recruitment and data-driven approach to management decision making. 

So, what's gone right at Brentford? 
And why is hard for other clubs to copy its blueprint for not just surviving, but thriving in the most competitive football league in the world.

Today's episode was recorded at Brentford Community Stadium and is a collaboration with Indeed, the club's official recruitment partner

Our guests are Jon Varney, David Ornstein and Matt Price.

Jon Varney is CEO of Brentford Football Club

David Ornstein is Football Correspondent at The Athletic

Matt Price is Senior Sales Director of Indeed

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Transcript

Smart Recruitment: The Brentford Model, in partnership with Indeed
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Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: [00:00:00] hello, welcome to Unofficial Partner, the Sports Business Podcast. I'm Richard Gillis.

The story of Brentford Football Club is one of the most interesting and quoted case studies in European football. Over the last decade, the West London Club has been transformed on and off the pitch from being saved from extinction by its own fans to a new era under the ownership of entrepreneur Matthew Benham.

The club was promoted to the Premier League in 2021, marking a return to the top flight after 74 years. Since then, it's become the go-to case study for smart recruitment and a data-driven approach to management decision making. So what's gone right at B Brentford and why is it hard for other clubs to copy its blueprint? Not just for surviving, but thriving in the most competitive football league in the world. 

Our guests are Jon Varney, David Ornstein and Matt Price. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Jon Varney is Chief Executive Officer of Brentford Football Club. David Ornstein is football correspondent of the Athletic and [00:01:00] Matt Price is Senior Sales Director of Indeed.

Today's episode was recorded at Brentford Community Stadium and is a collaboration with Indeed the club's official recruitment partner.



Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Let's start over here and then we'll finish here. So, David, just give me a line or two about how you, how you normally introduce yourself. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: I'm David Arnstein, football correspondent at the Athletic. And there I'm responsible for working mainly in football, news, journalism breaking stories around all manner of topics from football transfers, new contracts, managerial changes.

And previously to that I spent 12 years at the BBC from a writer on the sport website all the way up to being a sports correspondent for BBC News. And that brings me to the present day.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: And the athletic now is also the New York Times. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Yeah. The [00:02:00] Athletic, uh, couple of years ago was taken over by the New York Times in a football style buyout worth, I think about $550 million was the published figure.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: We had, before we move on, we had, um, we. One of our early podcasts was about the launch of the Athletic, I'm trying to think when that was.

And we had Alex, 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: yeah, 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: K Ky who's now gone the other way. He's gone to bbc. He's 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: done the reverse. David Arnstein. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Yeah. That was the 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: reverse Arnstein. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Yeah. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Is that what, is that what we're now calling it? 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Yeah. Remont of, of journalistic practice. So yeah, that was the summer of 2019 and, yeah. It had launched in the US I think in 2016, ambitions. Yeah. There was

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: also a lot of jealousy on the media side, wasn't it?

A lot of journalists saying, yeah. Well that weren't picked 'cause there was a lot of money flying 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: around, 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: wasn't 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: there 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: at that time. Yeah. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: So that brings us nicely into what happened in the uk. So they were able to grow and they targeted the Premier League in European football as their first expansion outside North America because they had Canada as well at the time.

But it's. [00:03:00] Saw a number of desks, sports desks.

Not quite decimated. Yeah. But shown of some of their finest talent, uh, whether it be national newspapers or websites or broadcasters. Yeah, there always comes a bit of suspicion and, um, 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: what is the internet?

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Uh, internet, but also like just skepticism, nervousness. What might it mean for traditional. Media and newspapers, for example.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Okay. Well, I'm gonna, we're gonna come back to the, some specifics. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Yeah. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Same question. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: I was gonna say, that's one hell 

Matt Price, Indeed: of an intro. Oh, sorry. I gotta, I gotta bang that up. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Normally they say 

Matt Price, Indeed: yeah. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Hello. I'm, and I'm from the Athletic. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, Matt Bryce, I'm senior sales director at Indeed.

Very much a different industry from the likes of David. We work in the internet as you. Put it so, so perfectly. Um, but we're out there in the marketplace supporting both job seekers, but also supporting employers to find that match, to find the right talent. Um, been an interesting journey for me.

Indeed. I'm in my [00:04:00] 14th year, so I think it's fair to say, uh, somewhat institutionalized. But it's been an interesting journey. For the business as a whole. So when I joined in 2012, there were fewer than 200 people in the business and we're now at circa 10,000 and in many, many markets as well. Um, so back then in 2012, our staple market was North America and then we reached out to the uk.

So it's been an an incredible journey in terms of. Uh, the job platform in itself, where it's come from and we are now, uh, just about to celebrate our 21st birthday. So yeah, very, very different, different industry. But we've grown handsomely over that period of time and currently in many, many markets.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Brilliant. Okay. And we're gonna come back to the sort of link, what links are source? So John, 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: I thought we'd had big growth, but 200 to 10,000. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Yeah. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: That's incredible. It's pretty impressive, isn't it? That's gonna pretty impressive. That's be 

Matt Price, Indeed: hell of a 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: 21st birthday celebration. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Yeah, well the 20th was pretty good, I have to say.

Um, but yeah, absolutely. [00:05:00] So it's, um, yeah, it's still, I think to to to to the point there, you know, it's challenging market. A lot of industries, businesses are going through challenging times, so yeah, it's, uh, it's still, it's still a fun place to be at. Absolutely. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: So. I've got a, an idea of what the chief executive of Premier League Club is.

It's almost certainly wrong. I've got the load of, well do, let me 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: know, 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: misconception, load of misconceptions, mistakes that I'll make you, you put me right, what is the job? 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: Well, shall I give a bit of background on how I got to the, the role that I'm doing now? Um, I started my career in the ticket office at the RFU at Twickenham.

Had a great time there. Then moved on to a Spanish sports marketing firm called Donna who introduced a new advertising system into the uk. Primarily around Premier League football clubs. Then ended up as, uh, working on football sponsorship at Coca-Cola. Left Coca-Cola set up a sports marketing agency with Theo Pro Fetus, uh, which was was, which was fun.

Well hand 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: [00:06:00] to him. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: He, he's still around. Don't worry about Theo. Left there, sold that to a sports marketing agency called Octagon. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: Left there, became commercial director of Premiership Rugby for eight years which was, uh, an amazing journey. And then. Went to Pitch International, was a partner at Pitch, which is television rights, sponsorship business.

Primarily looked after commercial rights to the Brazil national football team. And then the phone rang to, you know, would I be interested in becoming Chief Exec at Brentford? To which I immediately said no, because it's, it's my team. And it's what I do at the weekends to get away from football.

Yeah. At that point. And then they said, but read the job description. Read the brief. You know, the football side is in good shape, but we need some help from a commercial perspective. Wanna go through a big period of growth. And I read the brief and it's annoyingly, it really, really rang. Good bells with me.

And, um, and, and the minute I decided I wanted to do [00:07:00] it I could think of nothing else other than getting the role. So, yeah. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Was it, was it a tough interview process, John? 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: It was. Do you know it It was very, very formal. I think I had three rounds of interviews 

Matt Price, Indeed: Right. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: With board director of football you know, various presentations.

Yeah, it was, it was very, very thorough. Rigorous, yeah. It was rigorous it, and which is kind of what this organization is known for. Mm-hmm. You know, one, one of the things that Matthew Benham Yeah. And majority owner now, you know, he, he's very big on what we call pre-mortems. So, you know, looking at where errors and mistakes potentially could happen and trying to mitigate.

Those issues beforehand. And you know, that's why there is a lot of rigor and process on everything that we do at the football club. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: So what, let's talk about growth 'cause that'll be a theme of what we're gonna talk about. The, what's the difference between running a championship club and a premier league club?

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: I, I think that the, the core component parts are very similar, [00:08:00] but the scale is very, very different. So if you look, when we exited the championship, we had turnover of about 17 million. We're been near 190 million now in the Premier League. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: When we left the championship, I had a off field staff of around about 60 people.

And we're, we're, we're above 180 people now, so three times growth. So, yeah. And, and the spotlight. Is is on you in the Premier League? Yeah. Um, no question about that. And therefore, all of the decisions that you make across the organization, uh, are under the microscope. So, you know, but I think that the basics, the component parts are very, very similar, but the scale is very different.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: And where does the growth come from that? So from 60 to 180. Is it a particular department that's blown up or is it just across everything? 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: It's across the board. Across the board. You know, [00:09:00] clearly going into the Premier League, you're in a, a, a more significant regulatory environment. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: So a lot around legal compliance, safeguarding you know, so, so those areas grow very rapidly, but I think the, the other big growth area is around you.

Off field effectively is split into two. There's a business operations side where legal and finance and compliance, all those areas sit. But at its core off field, we're a sales and marketing business. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: You know, and I think the marketing team is now around about 30, 32 to 35 people. You know, I think when we left the the championship, it was probably no more than half a dozen.

So, you know, those areas have grown significantly. Partnerships has grown significantly. Because, you know, our, our business model as a football club is quite different from some others. You know, we don't have the [00:10:00] biggest of venues. So the leavers that we can pull from a, a financial growth perspective are very much around.

Player trading, which yeah, people are very familiar with around commercial partnerships. Yeah, sponsorship revenue. That is probably the most controllable area for us. So therefore you want to put your resource behind that and then broadcast and you only unlock the broadcast revenue whilst you remain in the land of milk and honey.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: So therefore. Everything that we do is focused about on field performance to maintain and grow that Premier League status. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: There's a, there's a couple of spinoff questions for you guys. One is about that question of growth and how you get from, you know, let's use the framing of championship to Premier League, but that's, you see what the, what are the problems, the pitfalls.

What is the stuff that companies look at when it gets to, okay, we need to go [00:11:00] from 60 to 180 people. What are the, what are the issues there? 

Matt Price, Indeed: Well, there'll be a rafter issues, uh, that are possibly at play. I, I think in, in order to maintain that, that growth, that consistent growth, that controlled growth is, you don't wanna be.

Deviating away from like, what is your mission as a business? What are your core values that everyone signs up to? And that really needs to be embedded into the fabric of that business. And people need to live it. And it needs to be start, it needs to start from the top all the way down. So for me to. Move through that growth period.

An organization shouldn't move away from what is really important to them and how they want their people to convey that message, and it really centers around those core values. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: I've got. So just on that, I'm just going to push it back to John. What are they? From your point of view. 'cause it's a good point.

And Brentford is one of those clubs that I think instinctively has [00:12:00] something there. But you need to articulate what that actually is. 'cause I, again, I've got an idea of it, but you tell me what you think. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: It's, I, I, I think we're very lucky and fortunate that we're in an A very purpose driven. Industry, you know, I think our staff, uh, whether it is on field or off field, understand what we're trying to achieve.

Yeah. You know, we spend a lot of time working on our strategic plan. I, I always say one of our super strengths is our alignment as an organization from owner through the board, staff, and, and the fans as well. I think everybody understands what their role and responsibility is within the organization.

And what we try and do is, is really empower each of the individuals to go out there, take some calculated risks, because we have to, as an organization you know, we don't have the, the resources and the financial clout of some of our [00:13:00] bigger competitors in the league, so we have to think. Slightly different.

Yeah. To, to those organizations. So for, for me, it's about empowering people and making sure that they really understand what their role responsibility is to deliver the strategic plan and then empower them to go off and do it. Give them the wings to fly. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Ri I was just gonna add the other thing as well.

What it fundamentally boils down to is that that organization, whichever its size is, what is the culture of that organization? What do people, how do people feel is so, so important. So if you're going from, say, a startup as I joined Indeed back in 2012 with fewer than 200 people, it was rough. It was ready.

It was incredibly exciting. And to stay within the business for 14 years, you've gotta love what you do. Fundamentally, it boils down to you've gotta enjoy it. And the business hasn't moved away from ensuring that it still has a really good culture. And there's different elements that play into that. And that is, so for me, fundamentally [00:14:00] important because we just spend more waking hours at work.

Yeah. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. 

Matt Price, Indeed: That when we're at home with our loved ones. So you've gotta have a real good, harmonious culture. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: There's a David, there's a question about, I hear a lot of club. Other clubs say I, you know, not just in the UK but across, you know, maybe even across European leagues, they want to do a brentford.

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Hmm. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: And I'm always interested in what that means and whether actually it is something that is, you know, oh we, we'll take John's playbook and trot that out over here in this league. But I'm interested, you know, and it is never as easy as that. But gimme a sense of where you think the culture question, I guess from your lens.

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Well, just before that, I actually took a lot of similarities in what the athletic did to what you're describing there. Because they were a startup and entering a very traditional market here in the uk, um, the chances are that they would fail. Many have tried [00:15:00] and fallen by the wayside, so they needed to create a clear identity.

A niche, A USP, but crucially, as you point out a culture and some values of what you're going to do, how you're going to make your mark in British and European and world sports journalism and how it's gonna be sustainable. And they've managed to fill what I think was a bit of a gap with no disrespect to what was already there for sort of quality and integrity and producing some long form features And, some articles that many of us, you're not sort of under pressure to follow the crowd. To the contrary try and think of something different when you come to a match or when you break news or when you do an interview so that you're offering value. And then the, those, the, the sort of ethos and the.

Culture sort of permeates throughout the organization. One that you're proud of being a startup and you're new and you're trying to make an impact. But two that you [00:16:00] all know the culture of what you're trying to do and how you're trying to do it differently from what existed before. If we extrapolate that, your actual question on, on the football side of things, I think.

Brentford and dare I say, at Brighton, given the ownership histories they've, they've tried to do something different. They've tried to grow organically and in the right way. I don't sense for a Matthew Benham here at Brentford. At Tony Bloom at Brighton, and, and there are other good quality owners and clubs and stories that they've taken it on as a play thing.

To just invest the billions they've made in other industries on shiny Hollywood signings and gimmicks that could bring success could boom, could bust. They've tried to create something organic and sustainable and really intelligent largely in, in the. Work that I do. You learn about this through the recruitment of players and the building of academy and the [00:17:00] strategy on the pitch where it's fascinating.

We may come on to talk about it, sort of where data plays a role. Analytics the gambling. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Well, let's talk about it now. Well, I mean, in terms of. Again, lots of cliches around data. Mm. But, you know, we're 20 years on from Moneyball. Is that still the game that is being played is a question that I was wondering about.

Where does that play in your world? Do you still, what access, you know, your looking I'm, I'm, I'm really, before we get to the data question, I'm really interested in the sort of why we're so obsessed with transfers. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Yeah. '

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: cause you've built a. Job around it. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Yeah. So I'll finish the last one and then bleed into that question.

So, where Brentford. We speak about specifically have become the example to many is that they, their record in recruitment is phenomenally good. Um, and it's translated onto the pitch and it's been underpinned by data, proven data it's not just [00:18:00] some sort of fad. Trial and error a sort of peak and a trough.

It's brought them consistency. It's been vindicated in results on the pitch and progress through the leagues. And there are some exceptional individuals working at this club. Some have gone, others have come, but there's been a consistency at the top led by ownership and, and several of the directors and the ethos.

They've. I dunno if I'm being a bit extreme here, but made a bit of an art form. Uh, I really like benford's recruitment and similar with Brighton and others, um, at a time where recruitment is so important. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: So let's just dig into that. 'cause I think that's a good question that. The data thing, and this is for both of you, but John, the, when everyone's got the same data, what's the edge?

And I try to explain Brentford is quite difficult I find, because I think that there's, I'm assuming everyone's got the same information about the players or pretty much so there's the interpretation of it. [00:19:00] Something's happening. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: Yeah. I, I, I think, um, for, for us, obviously everybody talks about the data, but it's just one component, part of making good decisions.

And I think we use the data very much at the front end of our decision making and at the back end when we're validating that decision. But there's an awful lot that happens in between you know, which are the more traditional methods Yeah. Of, of football scouting, 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: trusting the eye and character checks 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: correct.

And character checks and making sure that, you know, going back to that culture, that they are the right people for the environment and, and that's not, not just on the pitch, that's off the pitch as well. You know, and we, we talked a bit about, earlier about kind of the scale of the business that we are at the moment that, you know, we cannot we can't really to afford to go out into the market and bring in tried and tested.

[00:20:00] Long-term Premier League players, you know, that, that, you know, we have to look in other areas and therefore the use of data can help us significantly narrow down that search. But once that's narrowed down, there's still a lot of traditional methods used on that recruitment. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Yeah, I might just jump in there and there are exceptions like a Jordan Henderson, but that, but.

As a, as a, from the outset that that's the thinking of a club like Brentford. Your question is about doesn't everybody have the same data? Yeah, yeah. Many of them do. But it's the same in every industry. The Hollywood, you have loads of great actors and producers, but there are small percentages that make a big difference.

Between the good and the great or how it's used the data. So many Premier League and European and Championship, EFL clubs, they and global clubs, they have the same resources databases, software but some create their own algorithms, whether it be a B Brentford or Brighton, who I've mentioned and [00:21:00] many others.

So these two clubs that I've mentioned happen to be more gambling. Related data and the depth of it. I don't, it is beyond my 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: intelligence level. I think that's, so it's interesting that, because again, you hear that a lot and I wonder if that's just a story. I mean, I'm from, you know, I live in Bryan and I'm very familiar with that one, but there's a, I wonder if it underplays what's actually happening.

It's an easy story to tell that there is a secret source that has linked to the. Background of the, the owners. I wonder how real that is and whether or not, actually what you are saying is it's sort of a simplification. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: No, I, I, I think, you know, Brighton and Brentford, we know their ownership structure and data is used in other areas.

So that model has been refined over long periods of time. So, you know, it's, it's data that we trust you know, and, and. David said that there are vast majority of football clubs now are using significant data sources [00:22:00] across all areas of their business. It's, it's not just Brentford and Brighton.

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Totally. And so. Th there are secrets to their relative success. Ian Graham at Liverpool built his own system, an algorithm, and it's now formed a company called stat, um, it, uh, called Luda Nordics, um, that other clubs and organizations are benefiting from within the industry. Arsenal had stat DNA, so it was written themselves.

So within that feeding in our, our data companies and resources that many benefit from, but there's little edges that. Ha have been augmented to themselves, but then, so it's many describe it as being the, the, they call kind of like the, the data scientists the chefs, and then you have the data as the ingredients, and it's how well you cook.

Those ingredients as the chef for your restaurant and you serve it in a particular way. So it's like horses for courses. It, it's becoming, I [00:23:00] think, less about the differences in the data and more about the application of it. And I'm conscious I didn't answer why transfers such a big thing in my work and, and in this society.

It's because. For many reasons, but there's the rasm of the Premier League and, and, and u European and world football. It's about 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: hope as well, I 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: think, isn't it? It it's hope. There, there's always been a, a luster to, to transfers, but now as the stakes get over higher, the determination to win the.

Games like football Manager that make and, and social media that make people feel they're a part of it. The intrigue, the lifting, the curtain that people like me who can get a bit of an inside track at NBC, and this is an Americanism, they. Entitle me their Premier League insider. And I know insiders in baseball and American football and basketball are the same.

So, you know, giving the public things they didn't know before. So that's why the transfer [00:24:00] news and the scoops are becoming uh, salivated over like a a, a sport within a sport. You can break a transfer. Story during a Premier League match, and on many occasions you'll find there's a bigger buzz and more interactions about that transfer story than the match that's going on itself.

It's there's, 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: there's BB, C background. There is a. The incentive to be early rather than Right, is always hanging around this, isn't it? Mm-hmm. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Yeah. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: And particularly on social media, how do you deal? Because B, b, C has to be right. It can't, it doesn't have to be early. It doesn't have to be first. 

Matt Price, Indeed: And so you were early, weren't you on Saturday with, uh, an.

He left, uh, forests. I saw that being streamed straight away. But that I was like, crike. That was early. I mean, he was early. His departure within 17 minutes, he 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: is When you saw he had a cut face. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Yeah, that was, I think you've been right. You won't right on that. 'cause I think it was, uh, manini, wasn't it? The 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Oh, no, so, well, that, that's a, that's a slightly different topic and that I'll come onto as well in that what, what I, um, report often because.[00:25:00] 

It's a blessing that people trust what I and and others say. They seem to take their own interpretation, and I think you may have just done it there on what I actually said. And you, you form a view on what you think I meant. So I said that Mancini had been spoken to as part of the process, which nobody, uh, actually the Telegraph reported it at the same time, which is absolutely true, but many people, because of my reputation of, he doesn't speak that often.

So when he speaks, he means something different. They took that to mean Mancini getting the job. Yeah. Which I never said. And it is quite interesting that that's the interpretation you take. But the right versus first thing it, yeah, I came through the B, B, C, but before that I worked for others. I was at the Guardian on a traineeship.

I spent time with the London Evening Standard, the Sunday Telegraph. I did a sports, uh, sorry, I did a journalism degree at Bournemouth University three years, and, and I. Swear by that I, I [00:26:00] learned many of my values and morals and ethics and practices from there, and tons of spells of work experience. And now at the athletic and the rules are pretty much the same editorial guidelines.

You need to at least double independently source every bit of information, and that's become even stricter since the New York Times took over the Athletic, because accuracy and the truth is. Ever more important in this era of public scrutiny. And so the priority is always to be. Correct and accurate.

Okay? We, we do make mistakes. You don't try to, and you try and eliminate them as best you can. But there is a desire to be quick of course, that as has there been as long as journalism has existed and, and communication and, and the passage of information. And if you are lucky enough or, or you are good enough to deliver.

Accurately and quick, and maybe first then, then well done. Congratulations. It's a [00:27:00] privilege that it sometimes happens to me and it happens to many others, but you are really learning now that if you are not first, it's okay, but you better be right because people are unforgiving in this society and they remember and they come for you.

And I think it takes a hell of a lot long time to build up a reputation that I'm fortunate to have and, and. S some others in our industry too, but it can be broken so quickly and I'd be mortified to knowingly get something wrong. There are slip ups and hiccups and things change, which not many people in society have sympathy for.

And especially in football transfers until the ink is dry. And there have even been some remarkable cases where it. It's done in inverted commas, but it, it's not fully done, and it makes you reflect as a journalist. Should I report until it's official? Because, but then, then the essence of [00:28:00] journalism, or, or the work I do is to try and break news.

And, and it's, it, it can be a bit of a poison chalice, but we are living in, there is a bit of a race out there, especially with social media, the, because of the big business of transfers. And I, I was purposeful when I was saying about the smat. It, it all links why the clubs are so focused on it, because it's a revenue generator like John talked of.

It's, it's helping with success on the pitch. Sustainability. And these things are all intertwined. The media's reporting of it, the fans' appetite for it. But this, all, this, this all places such great emphasis on, on, on trying to do it properly. Uh, uh Okay. From my perspective, 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: well, let's, let's, I'm looking for a bridge here.

'cause we were talking about, there's the data question and you've been in this job a long time and there's an AI question hanging around here and says, what? Throw it to 

Matt Price, Indeed: me. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: You know, [00:29:00] so just take me inside what I'm not, I, I think I know what indeed is and what it does, but I'm, again, I'm probably wrong in, in.

My framing, but just take us inside that and what AI is gonna do to this world. 'cause there's, it's obviously football is almost like the metaphor, it's the root in. Mm-hmm. But there is also day in, day out in terms of our relationship with where we work. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Yeah, so I'll kind of talk about where maybe briefly indeed has come from to where it is right now, and then I'll kind of elaborate a little bit further on your question around ai.

So when Indeed, uh, inception back in 2004, it was traditionally a job site, which is we would get employers that they would. Post their roles. Uh, we would attract, uh, job seeker candidates to the platform, and then we would marry the two up. So the, the adverts, the job adverts would be advertised. The job seeker would, would see it following a search.

And then whatever stoke their interest, they would apply through through our platform. And naturally, over the course of the 21 [00:30:00] years we've evolved dramatically. Um, we are. Fundamentally, back in the day, a search engine. And now where we are moving to as a business is very much an AI engagement platform.

So 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: you're gonna have to explain what that means. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Yeah, no, absolutely. So, um, in essence, what we're trying to do is connect employers. That's never changed. We want to connect employers where the jobs are, with the job seekers that are obviously searching for those roles. The problem right now, and it's been a problem.

For decades is the recruitment process, generally speaking, there's many flaws in it. And I think David, you were kind of talking about getting out there with the story first, and I think for me, that boils down that time can be a killer. Yeah. Um, and in recruitment it's very, very pronounced that time can be a killer because it's so competitive, whether you're an SMB, whether or not you're an enterprise business, it's a competitive market to find.

Top talent. So once you find and source that top talent, you wanna get it across the line and to make sure that [00:31:00] you put pen to paper. So the recruitment process is still broken. Time is a killer. Too many steps for job seekers to go through to apply for a vacancy. So to give you a perfect scenario, we did some research last month where we surveyed a thousand employers and both employers and job seekers were saying the biggest killer.

Is time. That's the biggest problem that both face. So from a job seeker standpoint now, that's one of our values is job seeker first, we are always thinking about the job seeker, how we can break down those challenges, break down those obstacles. Their biggest gripe right now is that they will apply for a job.

They may have to wait for days, they may have to wait for weeks, or worst case scenario, they won't hear at all. So then straight away, if they don't hear from that employer, uh, that they've applied for, then that has a detrimental impact on that employer brand. Right? So therefore, that job seeker is less inclined to apply for another job because the experience that they faced was frankly awful.

Yeah. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Then you got it from the employer [00:32:00] standpoint, which is there's very arduous. Prolonged processes, administrative protocols, and that's probably heightened based on the industry. And they have to go through many steps to go through that process. And then when it comes to sourcing talent, if they say get inundated with applications.

There's a lack of resource to go through that. So then that becomes a problem for them because they're not quick enough to get off to the talent. And if their competition is swift, then they're gonna lose out fundamentally. So that's been a problem for quite some time. That still exists within traditional recruitment.

And what we are trying to do at Indeed, is to really develop and evolve ai. And we had a, uh, we had our internal marquee flagship event last month, which was held in, uh, new Orleans in America where we basically get a large contingent of North American clients, but we'll also fly in other international clients from other [00:33:00] markets.

And we'll get together over the course of two or three days. And this is really our vehicle to say to the global markets, the industry, media, this is where we're going as a business. This is our direction of travel and this is where we're focusing our attention. And that attention is ai. Um, and that's really what's getting us excited.

So there's two main products that we are in development stage right now that we are looking to roll out in the US primarily. And then it's gonna be rolled out into other markets, which is to support both the job seeker and also the employers as well to make the process fundamentally swifter and quicker.

The first one on the job seeker is what we're calling Career Scout. So that would be in essence a talent AI agent for the job seekers. So it will support them in everything in terms of, okay, what is your skill set right now? And what jobs are out there that match your skill sets. And we'll support them in terms of cv, uh, hygiene and also prepare them for interviews.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: So is it a sort of special, it's a sort of jobs. [00:34:00] GPT type, is it? Is that 

Matt Price, Indeed: exactly, so it's, it's, it is basically an agent, it's an AI agent. Okay. That will support them throughout that journey, which is a very pressurized experience to go through interviews, several interviews. Mm-hmm. As you mentioned already, John, with three interviews, which I thought actually was quite light.

I thought you'd probably go through about five or six, um, based on your seniority. Um, but it's. It's, it's a challenging and it's an emotional process, so we are looking to support the job seeker. Now, on the flip side, we've got the employers who equally have a lot of. Pains and challenges and basically slowness throughout the process.

So we're gonna be supporting them in terms of presenting the right candidates for their jobs. So AI will do that for them. So we're calling that product Talent Scout and Talent Scout will support them there. It'll support them with the messaging, it will support them with the sourcing, and it will also integrate with their a TS.

So those two products. Which are our big bets will streamline the [00:35:00] process for both job seekers and employers and, and fundamentally make it quicker, easier. Easier and simpler for both parties 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: and the relationship with Brentford. What does that do in terms of, from a marketing perspective, presumably that's why choose Brentford to.

Ally with, I can sort, I think I know the answer, but just you talk me through it. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Yeah, absolutely. And I think John will obviously be perfectly placed to talk about Brentford side of things 'cause it's a partnership and obviously we are looking at what's right for us. And Brentford will be looking at different brands out there in the marketplace in terms of what's right for them.

But there's a lot of affinity towards the value side of things. With us at Indeed what we focus on, uh, and also what Brentford, uh, has to, and John's touched on for, for, for, for Brentford. The one, the, one of the things is data. We've already touched on it. Yeah. We are a tech business at Indeed, and we sit on reams and reams of data and that feeds into how we do product innovation, how we support the job seekers, how we strategize.

So that's a big component and we've already touched on it [00:36:00] within this pod. But the other element, another key value for us indeed. Is inclusion and belonging. So we want to create an environment where people can rock up within their office, have a sense of psychological safety. They can be themselves, they're authentic selves, and these aren't gimmicky words.

We want to create that environment where we've got people with a different set of values, different cultures. And they have a sense of purpose. They believe in what we're trying to achieve. And um, I see that as well with the likes of brentford with the B together. BEE, yeah. Yeah. Being the insect B together.

Yeah. So there's a lot of overlap as well between both organizations. And, and the final point, I would say job seeker first being one of. Our primary values and the community work that Brentford do. Uh, so there's a lot of correlation between the two, and that's from our side. Why we certainly wanted to look to partner with Brentford.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: There's a, there's, I always find that with. Football clubs, and this [00:37:00] is a good example of it, is the sort of the tendency people talk about the global fan. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: Mm-hmm. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: But this is rooted locally. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: Yeah. That what we, we talk a lot about our organization is the head and the heart, you know, that the head being, trying to be smart in terms of use, use of data.

But the heart being a football club that was. Founded in its community, saved by its fans and understands its importance and relevance to the local community. And, you know, I, I was talking to the guys earlier that it's not that long ago, we were way down the football pyramid. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: And effectively going out of business as a football club.

And if it wasn't for our fans. Going around, you know, shaking buckets, collecting money. This football club wouldn't be here today. So that is not lost on anyone in the organization. And, and part of the onboarding, [00:38:00] whether it's a player, someone working in retail, they were, we would do a. Chief Execs breakfast.

We'll sit down. Peter Gillum, who's the longest serving PA announcer in the premier, in, in English football. I think he's been doing it for 55 years. Wow. He comes in and does a session around the history of brentford because I, I think, you know, one of the, we talked a lot about culture earlier in the, the, the podcast that, you know, as you grow, that is one of the hardest things to ensure that you.

Protect. Because you, you are, your people are coming into the organization now that didn't know about the past. Yeah. You know, all they've seen is the Premier League and, and looking to the future, and it's, I think it's really important from a culture perspective that they, they understand where we've come from as much as they.

Understand exactly where we want to go. The, [00:39:00] the, the other, just to kind of draw a line a little bit under the data piece, clearly it's what we're known for. Clearly we've been very successful in the player recruitment side, but I, I think what goes unnoticed at times is when you've bought. Whether it's someone from an on field or off field into the environment, into the building.

I think one of the things that we've done incredibly well is develop talent. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Right? 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: You know, we, we identify young talent, we bring it into the organization, but then we spend a lot of time, effort, and energy nurturing that talent and developing it. And, you know, from a playing perspective, you know, Brian and BMO was here a long time.

You know, Ollie Watkins was here a long time. David Rail was here a long time. You know, and I've got countless examples from an off field perspective where you know, I, I I call our, um, [00:40:00] our box office team, like our academy for on field, uh, for, for off field, where I've, I've got. People that have come in to work in the ticket office entry position role, but have now gone on and done bigger and better things within the organization.

And you know, I think what that, that's one area that I'm incredibly proud of, both on field and off field, but I think goes a little bit unnoticed. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: I'm not just saying this 'cause we're sat here today, but B Brentford of. Kind of pioneered the marginal gains in recent years. Small. Things making a big difference.

So set peace coaches. Mm-hmm. Kind of have stemmed from here. They're all over the Premier League now. Yeah. I think one went to Arsenal and he is been at Manu United, now at Spurs. Andres Georgetown. One 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: at Chelsea. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Yep. Uh, Chelsea. Bernardo Quaver. Yeah. So they are looking at areas. That can make a difference despite not being a, a Premier League heavyweight, for example, European heavyweight, but able to compete [00:41:00] with them on the pitch and, and, and potentially for many years to come.

And I always feel, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way to some of the biggest clubs, but they can get a lot more wrong than you guys. Mm-hmm. Um, because their revenues will always be high. They've got their historic appeal and identity and fan bases. And at times they hemorrhage money at times.

They make huge mistakes. They churn through players, they overlook some of those really important marginal gains and. They may slip down the league for a season or two. They may be in a relegation battle, but they'll come back up. They'll spend their way through it. And, and that's their gift. And some of them are, many of them are trying to follow actually the brentford pattern.

'cause if they can marry up their, their stealth with, with their intelligence, then they could be unstoppable forces. Do, do you think that's, I love what B Brentford are doing? 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah, no. And I think there's a sort of that question of why it's difficult. For a big club to do a brentford as people, you know, you might [00:42:00] call it, it's something there about corporate ego perhaps, or the fan ego.

They won't allow that process to happen because it, it requires buying players at one price point and moving them on and possibly get, you know, selling them a, a much higher price point that isn't in the. DNA of a big club. 'cause they don't want to think of themselves in that way. That that feels like there is, it's less to do a technical problem in terms of, you know.

Ransacking John's playbook. It's actually about the, there's an ego question. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: I think there's the 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: status question 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: without disrespecting them. There's definitely some ego at certain clubs. In the past, I've felt there's a recruitment arrogance where they feel they are only able to shop in the biggest market because their fans expect the marquee signings.

And you can look at some of the clubs and make your own judgements who I might be talking about. But it's. A kind of galactico mentality, um, and. Some of them are [00:43:00] coming to be bitten on the backside with that because it doesn't really wash anymore. But if I'm to give them some sympathy, we're starting to see that at certain clubs there is a level of player and mentality that.

Can cope with that environment and is able to flourish with the expectations of the biggest clubs. And so that might go against what I've just said and it, and it may explain why they were targeting some of those players because there are players that come to Brentford. And to other clubs. And they feel that is the right step for them in terms of the ability to make mistakes and not be destroyed for it by fan bases, by staff, by media, social media.

Um, and they learn and they develop. And then in maybe a food chain, they then get bought by the biggest clubs when they've matured and ready. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: Well, we talked a bit earlier about, you know, safe spaces. And to, to learn and [00:44:00] develop. And I, and I think, you know, we've created those safe spaces both on and off the field.

Yeah. In this organization, you know, when people feel safe, respected, cared for, then you are gonna develop them, I believe, quicker. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Yeah. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: You know, so you know that that's been, you know, an important part of what we've done here. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: So should Brian and Bomo have gone straight from France to Manchester United?

No. Should he have come here? Yes. Has it worked? Yes. Would it have worked if he had gone there? We'll, we'll never know. Benjamin Sesco have Manchester United or Newcastle to choose from. Many feel he should have chosen Newcastle, um, who are a huge club, but maybe not quite as much. Um, weight on your shoulders.

Which or Trafford we've seen brings Nick Vol has gone to Newcastle. We are not saying he could have had bigger clubs at that point, but that looks like a really good development ground. Many people say to me, uh, why did, uh, Chelsea. Uh, not sign [00:45:00] Moises Kaido before he went to Brighton because they're all recruiting.

Sorry, looking at the same players with their data that we talked about earlier. They've all got the same resources. They would've known about him. Um, and then they've spent over a hundred million pounds for a player that Brighton spent 4 million pounds on. It was the right step for him. I think he had a loan spell away from the club as well.

He develops and then he's bought that safe space. The culture, the environment and what you talked about, John, of developing players. Is, is absolutely crucial in this process. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: All, all of that requires you to be brave Oh yeah. In your recruitment. And you know, that, that's something I think we're very prepared to do, which is be brave, you know, and, you know, I, I look at, um, you know, performance director Ben Ryan.

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: Not from football. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: Right. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: See, 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: rugby 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: seven's rugby, yeah. Was the, remember Ben was the coach of the Fijian national team that won the Olympics, you know? So, you know, that was a brave decision. You know, Phil Giles, our director of football, is not, you know, [00:46:00] come through that traditional. Football, director of football route and pathway, you know, he's, um, you know, he's a, he's a quant, he's a mathematician.

So you're, we've, we've had to be brave along the way. And, you know, when you are brave, you know, sometimes things do go against you and backfire on you. So not saying for one minute that we've, we've get everything right. With our recruitment, we 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: don't, people, people use that phrase test and learn, don't they?

And it's a sort of Silicon Valley cliche, and it's really hard at a football club to do something like that and have that culture. It's easy to say it, but actually people do blame you. The fans are, you know, volatile sometimes about, 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: yeah. But I, I think that goes back to where I, I still think we are in a very fortunate position as a premier league club, and through that alignment that I was talking about earlier.

Ownership staff, players, coaches, but most importantly, the fans, the [00:47:00] fans of this football club understand that we have to do things in a slightly different way because, you know. From a financial perspective, we have a water pistol and we're up against some cannons and bazookas. So, you know, we, we have to, we have to go about our business in a different way.

David Ornstein, The Athletic: That tolerance is a fine balance though, because they do want to win football matches. Of course they do. And of course they do. And so the, you've, you've got to factor in both. And it's interesting now that I think some of the. Bigger clubs are being emboldened to try things inspired maybe by the pioneering work of the Brentford of this world.

So I think to Manchester United have taken somebody on the data side from Formula One, which we probably wouldn't have seen in the past. Liverpool bought in a throw ins expert. Uh, there's probably a manner of things I dunno about behind the scenes at clubs from nutrition to Sports Science Arsenal, I think brought in on the data side.

Somebody who had [00:48:00] worked or, or. Helped build Candy Crush. Yeah. Um, and we were talking about ai. I, I found your answer on AI and Indeed, absolutely fascinating because tapping into every resource you can now, and maybe it's coming to journalism at some point as well. Um, 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: and we, we've had a sleep coach for the last prob, probably seven, eight years.

You know, because it, you know, good sleep is a vital component of good performance. If you have got tired athletes, it's gonna be harder for them to perform at elite levels. 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: I was speaking to a, a club medic who said to me, um, one of the problems that this is causing this drive for excellence and and progress is that at the training ground, we are being inundated through post and physical.

Deliveries or presentations with the next big thing, whether it be a wristband, whether it be a sleep coach, whether it be a machine that helps you recover from an ACL in two minutes. Everybody's got the [00:49:00] shiny new thing, uh, and some of them work, some of them don't. Uh, that sort of trial and error that you talked 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: about, but that's why diversity is so important in every area of the workplace because, you know.

If, if you keep hiring the same type of individual, you're gonna get the same kind of outcome. Absolutely. So, you know, whether it's ethnic diversity, gender diversity, just people from different diverse workplace backgrounds. You know what we, we, you know, from a work perspective, when we were going through our big period of growth coming out of the championship and into the Premier League, if we, if we look at our time in the championship, we had a real set purpose, which was.

To be Premier League ready. Mm-hmm. We thought we were Premier League ready on the field, but we were definitely not Premier League ready when I arrived in, in our championship days. So that kind of gave everyone a real focus and purpose. And then when we got into the Premier League, [00:50:00] and by the way, we probably weren't from an off field perspective, premier League ready when we, we actually landed, because it, it's not until you get there, you realize.

How much is gonna come at you in a very short space of time. Yeah, bet. But then when, when we got into the Premier League, it, for me, it was all about creating an environment of, of thrive. Not just survive. Yeah. Because, you know, I genuinely felt that if you, if you went into survival mode, when you go into that kind of.

Beast of a competition, which is the Premier league. You're constantly looking over your shoulder and, and you will get chased down. So I, I think there's been, you know, a, a tone and, and, and an agenda set by Matthew and the rest of the leadership team, which is always looking to push boundaries. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: One question about that is that I could see if you, those immediate years when you go up again, you, you know, the, the cliche of the sort of yo-yo.

Club, and then you've got the [00:51:00] question of, okay, when, when did it start to feel comfortable? Because obviously that that jumped from 60 to 180 people on the field. People say, oh, well, you know, they got, they went up, they overspent, then they came down and it's, you know, you have these sort of problems of clubs with too many players, or they're playing, paying them too much, whatever.

If you extrapolate that too. The whole club. I'm just wondering, was there a moment where you thought, okay, no, we are, we are now in the there's, we're at a different status and we can relax. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: I, I don't think, 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: do you ever relax? 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: No. No. I don't think you do. I think we'd all say no. It is the toughest, most competitive league in the world, you know?

And I don't think you will ever, ever feel comfortable. And neither should you. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: Because you know the beauty of the English pyramid is there is another brentford lurking somewhere. 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. [00:52:00] 

Jon Varney, Brentford Football Club: And they will snap at your heels very, very quickly. And, and you know, competition is a great way of driving performance.

You know, when, when you're in an environment like ours, you cannot rest easy. You know, and whether that's on the pitch or off the pitch, you've, you've got to keep striving to improve and eek out. Everything that you can from your workforce, whether that's on pitch or off pitch. 

Matt Price, Indeed: I was, I was just gonna say, I think that's an interesting point.

There's been many interesting points from the, the pair review, but just on that point there, that's, that's good, 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: isn't it? 

Matt Price, Indeed: Yeah, 

David Ornstein, The Athletic: we've been an hour, 

Matt Price, Indeed: but uh, I think it kind of boils down to like almost complacent. Yeah, to avoid complacency, to make sure that you remain competitive. And I think almost what you were referring to Richard, like coming into the Premier League, that earlier point, almost like that imposter syndrome, you're coming into a really competitive league.

But just on that complacency, and I can speak personally and hopefully this can transfer [00:53:00] to, you know, other businesses that will be listening to this pod. Our CEO, our former CEO. Indeed. One of the things that he said was that, you know, what keeps him up at night is not our competition. The other big tech firms that are our rivals, it's probably that individual that graduate that's working at home on the next best thing, the next best app that's gonna launch.

And I can't see that right now. And that's the thing that was. Always, he, he would literally filter that down. So for any business, complacency, a bit like time is a killer. Yeah. And you need to make sure that you're constantly evolving, iterating, and thinking about the next best thing. It's, it's, it's so important.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Gen ZA pain in the ass aren't they? Keep coming up with anything. 

Matt Price, Indeed: I'm not 

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: gonna call on that. That's the, uh, byline of the, uh, podcast. Right. We talked about data. Your watch has just been telling me you need to stand up. So we've come to a draw. Thank you very much for your time. Really enjoyed that and uh, good luck.

Good luck for the season and good luck for whatever comes [00:54:00] next. 

Matt Price, Indeed: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.