Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP518 Inside Edge: Harry Brook, George Pyne and the cricket agent business
Inside Edge is our series on the business of cricket, presented with co-host Mike Jakeman.
Our guest is Phil Weston, head of cricket at TGI Sport, the agency owned jointly by George Pyne's Bruin Sports Capital and Quadrant Private Equity.
England star Harry Brook is one of an impressive roster of talent across both the male and female games, including Kieron Pollard, Rashid Khan, Jofra Archer and Sophie Devine.
In 2024 TGI acquired Insignia to its international network that includes European-based tech-led media rights and virtual production agency ISG, New York-based virtual advertising solution provider Brand Brigade, UK-based Media Sales agency Sportseen, leading Australian sports agency TLA and talent management company SFX Sports Group.
This episode of the Unofficial Partner podcast is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport.
Sid Lee Sport is the fame-making creative and sponsorship agency for brands in sport. Through exceptional creativity, deep sponsorship expertise, and flawless on-site delivery, they help brands, sponsors, and rightsholders unlock their full potential in sport - most recently picking up a Leaders Sports Award for their work with Lidl at UEFA EURO 2024.
Everything they do is driven by a culture of effectiveness - because in sport, performance matters. Not just on the pitch, but in the work too. So whether you want to build buzz, connect with audiences, or do something that actually cuts through, Sid Lee Sport knows how.
Visit sidleesport.com
Sid Lee Sport - where brands become champions.
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there's been a change in cricket in general since the early days of Joe Root, where. And particularly with, the current England regime where the color of the ball is slightly blurred now in terms of the way you play. And and that suits Harry down to the ground. You know, he's come in at the right time into that setup. There's no doubt about that.
That is Phil Weston, who is Harry Brooks, agent the England Cricketer, who is currently performing in the first test in Perth. As we record this, Phil is one of the most powerful cricket agents in the game today. He is head of cricket. At TGI Sport, his player roster includes not just Brooke, but also Joffer Archer, Kieran Pollard, Rashid Kahn, Sophie Divine, and many other international players across both white and red ball versions of the game. So he's in a good spot to talk about the health of the game, but also many of the questions that we bump into on Inside Edge. our business of Cricket Series co-hosted here with Mike Jakeman. I'm Richard Gillis, and you are welcome to Unofficial Partner. This episode of the Unofficial Partner Podcast is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport. Sid Lee Sport is the fame making, creative and sponsorship agency for brands in sport through exceptional creativity. Deep sponsorship expertise and flawless onsite delivery. They help brands, sponsors, and rights holders unlock their full potential in sport. Most recently picking up a Leader's sports award for their work with Little at Uafa Euro 2024. Everything they do is driven by a culture of effectiveness because in sport performance matters not just on the pitch, but in the work too. So whether you wanna build Buzz, connect with audiences, or do something that actually cuts through Sidley Sport knows how. Visit sidley sport.com where brands become champions.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:let's talk about TGI, just to begin with, just to land you in the conversation, there's a question about what your day job is, what do you do all day? And then there's also a bit of context because think the player agencies particularly, they quite often are buying each other over a period of time and you sort of lose track. Brands appear and disa appear, and they're under one umbrella and then they're out on, on another one. So, and obviously people then jump to who are the players that are being represented it or whatever, but can you just give us a bit of a, just to kick us off really just a way in to what the day job is, but also just give us a bit on TGI.
Phil Weston, TGI:My title is Head of Cricket Management at TGI. TGI are predominantly a tech business at the leading the cutting edge of, of tech in sport. We've grown very, very rapidly predominantly by acquisition. so if you look at the sport of cricket, which is one of the most important sports for us globally, would be involved with the big screen technology. Boundary board technology. We're one of the, few companies in the world that has the ability to create parallel ads as, as players are playing the virtual advertising. we're involved in content creation selling, marketing and consulting for, for governing bodies and teams some of our key clients are. A, cricket Australia, E-C-B-I-C-C. We're involved in the hundred, the MLC and, and everything in between, as well as being involved in lots of other sports all over the world. On the commercial side. But my, my background. With TGI, we, we've changed names a couple of times by acquisition, but it has always been creative management and, and the management of players and we like to have a key influence in the ecosystem and players are still, the most important part as far as I'm concerned in that. So we're the largest in terms of numbers in the world, and we have 10 agents around the world and manage around about 330. People involved with cricket, be they male or female players, broadcasters, coaches. And at times, you know, we have some involvement with some of, some of the backroom staff as well. So in a nutshell, what I do on a daily basis is I manage my own clients, but I'm also involved at, at, at a higher level with, you know, how we're shaping that business and where we're moving strategically.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah, we had George Pine on and he's obviously brewing sport. TGI is under that umbrella.
Phil Weston, TGI:brewing, and another private equity company called Quadrant are the owners of TGI. Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:It's interesting sort of sector and again, just stepping back from cricket slightly and, and, Bruno involved in this, but there's lots of activity around. sort of business of management and agencies, as you'll know. And it's quite an interesting time because one of the running theories, this goes across Premier League football, European football, N-B-A-N-F-L players, IPL cricketers, the the money private equity is looking at agencies because the money is coming from the leagues, through the leagues, through the clubs and teams, and it's ending up with the players and they are sort of gathering. The bottom almost to, to pick up what was the, you know, the TV revenue money at the top. So sort of that in a nutshell is sort of their play and you can the logic behind it and I'm just wondering how, you know, whether that is, how you view them, the marketplace.
Phil Weston, TGI:I, I think the marketplace, this is just a personal observation, I think the, the, maybe a little bit that is the case. Manage, it is what I would call a sve. It, it, it does filter down and it is SIV down. And the players do you know, they, they're much better rewarded. There are a huge amount of growing opportunities for players in, in world cricket now. however, I think it would be fair to say that in general the investors are looking at businesses that, that they're looking to bring in management as part of a wider business.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Phil Weston, TGI:Yeah. And I, and I still think in cricket particularly it's definitely become a little bit more attractive as a profession to be a sport, a cricket agent than certainly than when I began. It's still not football, it's still not with the American sports. It's still not golf, tennis, et cetera. Whether it will ever be like that for a, for a manager, I, I'm not sure, but it's certainly heading a little bit that way.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And in terms of just before I hand over to Mike, I'm always interested in how many players sell tickets, you know, because there is a sort of marketplace for talent and I've just come off a conversation about golf, you know, and we're talking about live golf and the idea behind live golf and, actually when you drill down to something like European tour, you've got a very, very broad pyramid and you've got a few at the top who are famous and move the needle, whether that's media rights or Ticket sales, and I'm guessing it's the sort of the same model in every sport. my head always goes to, you know, the Harry Brooks Joffer Archers of this world who are superstars, but actually there's a sort of whole group. Below that. And I'm wondering how that works from your point of view, how the, you know, the management of, of people who aren't Harry book.'cause we'll talk about Harry book in a minute'cause he's, and we're about to, you know, go to the ashes and all of those things. But again, back to your day job, how much time do you spend and what that sort of risk reward ratio is?'cause you are a business and they all need to be generating income.
Phil Weston, TGI:it's a really good question and it has changed a lot in the last, the last 10 years. 10 years plus. And you, you're aware, I, I know you've done your research. We, we, as a business, we've grown by acquisition in terms of the, the cricket management space. And remit when I, when I came into. The business as was, was to grow a, a, a traditional cricket management business from the bottom up in the UK to go alongside our head office in, was in Melbourne at the time. And it was, it was to really to go alongside the business that we had there, which was primarily, the likes of the Peter s and Matthew Wade, j Duran Finches, who were, who were right at the, at the top of their game in, in the middle of their careers. And the opportunities were seen as basically. Growing their their base in their home countries growing. The opportunities for Big B was just beginning. The IPL was, was going well, but it wasn't, it wasn't the, the, the animal that it is now. And there weren't, there weren't many other leagues in between, so it was definitely seen as a more traditional model. And at the same time we, I I, you know, it was, it was a very small industry as agents. There weren't many people making a, a living out of being a cricket agent at the time. there were either the one-man bands who were doing something else on the side, or there were one or two businesses like ours that, that, that had the backing of, a wider business to, to give yourself a chance to grow.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Phil Weston, TGI:but we saw the, there's a, we, we've, since, in the last, uh, couple of years, we purchased a business called Insignia Sports International, which was at the forefront of, of developing and, and, and growing a book of T 20, predominantly T 20, but some, some excellent international cricketers as well, but, but a but a T 20 base around the world. And we saw. The, the joining of our two businesses has been a natural fit to give us the scope where we could essentially provide a really quality level of service to, to, to, to. range of cricketers. I think, again, we'll come to how the landscape's changing for players, but we want to be able to, to, to navigate that landscape, be at the forefront of, of that landscape so that we're, we're involved with some of the key stakeholders. Be they boards, be they leagues, be they new leagues that haven't even been discovered yet, so that we can provide that service to our players, whatever, and whenever they need. And, and the other thing that we haven't mentioned there, which is, which is key is, is the female game
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah. Yeah.
Phil Weston, TGI:and how that's changed and how female cricketers have become, attractive to guys like us,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Phil Weston, TGI:in, in where their game's going and where it is now.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I wanna, I've got some very specific questions about the women's game'cause I was at the T 20 launch at Lords, you know, the women's T 20 launch. And it's a really interesting question about, again, you've got a World Cup here next year and what happens in terms of the, you get these moments and part, this is particularly true of women's. Sport generally is that you get, you know, the lionesses and the red roses, the rugby and cricket rugby and football, and you get the sort of peaks of the team, national team, then you get a few superstars that are popping and then it's the middle bit. That's really hard, but I wanna come back to that'cause We'll, we'll, I sort of, I think it's a really interesting bit of the equation, Mike, I'm gonna throw to you now.
Mike Jakeman:Sure, and part of the reason why I. Is because I feel like you can talk to us about both sides of the, the agenting business, having been a professional player, uh, in the county circuit throughout the 1990s and 2000, and then became an agent after retiring. Can you talk to us a bit about what it. Your interactions with agents, how contracts worked, the amount of the volume of work for your agent back when you were a player, to kind of give us a, a sense of where we're coming from.
Phil Weston, TGI:Yeah, sure. And, and the answer is they, there, there weren't many, and certainly for players like myself there, a need for an agent. I, I actually did use an agent. And that was purely to move, move teams and help negotiate and, handle the move from one team to another. But outside of that, I certainly, there was, there was no, uh, thought of using an agent for anything commercially or to help in what I call whole of life. And, and, and that's the type of thing that we do now. There also was, were very few and they tended to be football agents who, who added a little bit of cricket. You know, a bit of Stardust on the side. Stella was one that, that are, that are a big football business, and they had some of the best players at the time. And of course then Neil Ferber came in and, and and probably started the biggest, uh, you know, you know, the most well known operation with the likes of you know, the Vaughns, the Flynn Toffs and the, and, and people
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And he was part of Chubby LERs business, wasn't he? As that initially,
Phil Weston, TGI:that's right. Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:which again is a golf, it was a golf business, which had a cricket offshoot.
Phil Weston, TGI:Yeah, and, and probably one of the first standalone businesses was a company called Athletes One that was set up by David Lizard Wood. And it had, Alex Stewart had an involvement in that at the time, along with Mike Smith they. They represented probably the, the, the highest volume of players in the, in the late nineties and two thousands in, in the uk. That sort of then, then grew and one or two of the agents that were involved then are still involved and, and are prominent agents now. So in our business, for example that they were bought by essentially group. And in our business now there, there's a few that went off into Insignia. So Eddie Toshar founded Insignia. He, he was part of Athletes One originally. Harwood and Simon or Terry all, all worked for, for essentially at some point.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Mike Jakeman:So when you just thinking back to your, your playing career agents were primarily used if you had a contract from your county that you felt you could probably either were deserving a bit of a, a bigger bump, or you thought there was more money that could be won there like almost as a sort of arbitration almost.
Phil Weston, TGI:Yeah, it was primarily to move if you were moving clubs it was also potentially to do that. But in terms of, they, they did get involved more and more with agents that represented overseas players coming into the uk. So there was, there was a market for that. And, and the, and the guys in my career, most of the, of the players would've used an agent to do that. but it wasn't, it, it wasn't something that everyone had by any means. And, and actually the only reason I got into it, it wasn't something that I would've thought of, of doing personally, but I, after finishing playing in 2007, went and worked for I was sports partner for National Australia Bank, which was National Australia Bank in Clydesdale. And I had a, a team of people that I, that, that worked with me that were bankers, financial advisors. Business bankers as well. And I, I worked quite a lot with management companies and agencies in different sports and saw how they operated and, and sort of had it in the back of my mind that I felt that there, you know, there was definitely some improvement and some development. And I, would, I would personally have liked to do things a little bit differently than I was seeing both, both in rugby, football, cricket, and, and some of the individual sports. But it's clear that it was evolving quickly. You know, it was a moving market.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And has the, I mean, it's, it's interesting, you know, Mike's point about what, what the job was and where the money comes from. So in my head, again, it's, it's contracts and it's, I'm bat deals or kit deal is that, you know, so someone like a Gray Nichols or a Duncan Fernley or Gun Moore, are they part of, I'm just wondering, again, we're talking about below the sort of superstar level, does the money come from?
Phil Weston, TGI:I mean, I mean, the thing that's changed, and if you compare cricket to. if you look foot football is football, and you know, in
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Phil Weston, TGI:might be, there might be three people, three, three companies involved in one deal. That, that, you know, it's a little bit of a murky world. Although it is being regulated more. Cricket has always been, uh, traditionally there were one, possibly two contracts or, or employment contracts a year that a player might be involved in. If he was good enough, he might have something of note in the winter. But otherwise it was his main domestic contract, whether that be a central contract or a, or a a a just a county contract. And the thing that's changed. Beyond measure is that, you know, now we would have a number of clients who would potentially have six, seven contracts plus a year. So we're, we're negotiating them at times. Some of them are, are, are auction led or draft led, but there's a lot of work that goes into to, the process leading up to a draft or leading up to an auction. And so we're heavily involved in. The shape of those contracts, and then we're heavily involved in all the things that go around that as well. So yes, we would, we would be paid primarily by getting a, a percentage of the commission on, on those deals. And, and that you talked about there, Richard, the level just below international cricket, there is a level of player that may have played a little bit or, or, or may not be retired or may never have played international cricket, but if they're very good white ball players, they can still earn a very good living playing around the world. Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Phil Weston, TGI:They're the ones that wouldn't have a huge amount of commercial money coming in. You know, that there would be commercial money, but it wouldn't be the type of money. We, we, we manage athletes who effectively, we only really get involved with your, guys like Adam, pt. Uh, Chris Hoy went. Now he's
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yep.
Phil Weston, TGI:retired, but like that, we would, we would only really get involved in the commercial side in terms of making our money as commissions and, and not anything really to do with competing. difference in team sports is primarily our, our revenue is coming as a commission on the, on the plane contracts.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Right. So you're not, wouldn't get it's like a, again, the golf analogy is that you, I remember IMG was saying, well, we don't take from the prize money, that's the golfers, but then it's, everything else is up for grabs, and they're, they're taking a slice from that.
Phil Weston, TGI:we would be taking a commission on playing contracts. So that would be the difference. Yeah. We wouldn't take it on prize money itself, but we would take it on a basic playing contract with the, you know, most agents would, would charge a fee, but there is still the bigger the player, there's still an expectation and where think the reason that. we're doing well and I think we're really well placed, but reason that there has been a lot of change and movement in, in, in the sector is because you need a level of expertise and a network to be able to commercialize players. And so, you know, you need the help of people who are doing that on a daily basis. It certainly wasn't my strength when I came into this.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Well, it's quite interesting I'm trying to think through the, the, you know, the, the player or who's got six or seven contracts. quite often the noise around, you know, a podcast like this or around, generally around the media is. The leagues are very disparate. It's, it needs to be consolidated. It needs to be a simpler calendar, but actually I can see value from a player's point of view of having six contracts, frankly, you know, rather than two contracts.'cause I can sort of, for, from that point of view, we always, the conversation quite often goes towards player burnout and whatever But actually there's more money in a marketplace, a a T 20 circuit as we're seeing it now, where they're popping up emerging leagues, hundreds. The American question, all of these things are great for players, aren't they?
Phil Weston, TGI:They are. And they, and they, and what they do is they, if the player's good enough, particularly if he's good enough, obviously at White Ball Cricket, it gives that player choices. And those choices appear at different stages of their
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I.
Phil Weston, TGI:So undoubtedly that, you know, it, it, it is good for the player. The one thing I would say though is. There are, there are exceptions, but very few. Most players begin and you know, they start to play the game. They move into the professional world generally with the ambition that they want to be the best international player they can. And that might be changing slightly, but, but in general, you know, particularly the English, the Australians, the Indian players particularly, but not, not exclusively by any means, they, they want to be the best cricket as they can be for their countries. And a byproduct of of that tends to be that they then become bigger names and they become more attractive to the franchises. So if, if you haven't had that in your early career. It is a disadvantage in, in, even in the T 20 world. There's no doubt about that. So it, it, it's not as straightforward as saying, let's have six contracts. You can still get six contracts now having never played international cricket, but they might be in lesser T 20 competitions and they might not be for the level of remuneration that you think there may be. equally, you know, there are pros and cons of T 20 Cricket and if, if you're playing T 20 franchise cricket exclusively, and unless you're playing in the big tournaments alongside the best players. Are you actually gonna get better? Are you improving as a cricketer? Are you fulfilling everything that you can do? And, you know, that's for the player to decide. I'm, I'm no longer a player and I certainly wouldn't have been good enough to play in any T 20 Cricket. So, I'm just trying to, you know, help facilitate that really.
Mike Jakeman:Well, it, it feels to me like because as we've just mentioned, cricket has become so much more complicated, or Cricket career has become so much more complicated because there are so many more options to the current and future generations compared to, for example, yours. An agent, where does an agent stop on a kind of strategic advisor role? Begin. Because if you are faced with, you know, as a 20 or 21-year-old with a, a bunch of talent, but not a lot of experience and exp I mean experience of the business, uh, let's say trying to decide which opportunities to take up if you're in the position to have lots of them must be a.
Phil Weston, TGI:Absolutely. Mike. Yeah, that's, that, that is, that is the role. And you know, that's where I, I personally don't like the word agent. You're probably closer to a strategic advisor, but I like the, the word manager. You know, we help to try and manage the process and a sounding board and advice when required and, and, and effectively always, always sense check. The reason for doing something against what, what the player tells us he wants to achieve. And, the experience that we have as individuals and we, we actually have in our business, across, the different agents. we can provide, more holistic, uh, advice and we can work with. With some of the stakeholders, the counties, the state teams that the international boards and make decisions on players short and long-term plans outside of playing international cricket to help'em become better players. But also, you know, we, we, we are in the business of making money for them and we've gotta, we've gotta balance that against against all the things that are, you know, that, that exist these days.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:the question. the value of a test career a Red Bull career cause it's sort of, again, it is slightly counterintuitive, but we're coming into the ashes the squad is announced, the people in that squad and the people at the top the real first teamers. can you just sort of paint a picture of, of a career for them? it's the Harry Brook question in terms of, well, what are the questions that they've got? What do they worry about?
Phil Weston, TGI:They're all individuals. But I think a couple of points I'd I'd probably make, first of all, I think there is becoming a danger that cricket is, is polarizing at international level. And there are, you know, India stands alone, but Australia and, and England sat below are the three powerhouses. India, as I say, are definitely the powerhouse. Below that. A young South African player, a young, a young Kiwi, really wants to play international test cricket because within their peers it's seen as being the pinnacle. there are exceptions, but I would say that's a fair generalization. It is just when it becomes, such a financial disadvantage that, that they can't do that anymore, that they really look, look elsewhere and you know, it, it, again, it do partly depends on the type of player they are. But, but certainly the predominance of players that I personally manage are English or Australian, and they want to play test cricket for their country until it's no longer viable for that to happen. and, and you've talked about Harry, Brooke and You know, Harry is my. client. He is been a client since he was at school at, and I've been involved with him as he is, become the player and the person that he is now and, and holds the positions that he does. And right from the start, there's been a continuity. the thought process that Harry's had, which is he wants, it's England, he wants to play for England, not just play for England, but he wants to play for England and be the best that he can, that's across test cricket and white ball cricket. So I can categorically state that everything that he's tried to do in that period has been to do that it's to credit by the way that he's done that.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:One of the questions again we've had on the podcast previously is the, is a sort of fear that the, the Joe Root generation, Williamson Coley who prioritize test cricket, the next generation won't do that, and that will chip away at the value of test cricket, you know, broadly. And as, as three test cricket fans, we don't want that to happen. And all of those, you know, you can start to see that trope. But so what you are saying is, is giving me. a boost because actually I want Harry Brook to say, right. I want a Joe Root type career.
Phil Weston, TGI:I think people, I mean this is just as a cricket fund, but I think he's a cross between Joe Root and
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Phil Weston, TGI:Peterson, that that's what I sit, see sits. And you know, I also think there's been a change in cricket in general since the early days of Joe Root, where. And particularly with, with, you know, the, the current England regime where the color of the ball is slightly blurred now and in, in terms of the way you play. And and that suits Harry down to the ground. You know, he's come in at the right time into that, into that setup. There's no doubt about that. But going back to your point, in general, I think there is, I, I'm not a doom and gloom merchant around test cricket and I'm particularly not around, you know, you look, look at the buildup to the ashes at the moment and the, and the hype. Talking to people in Australia at the moment. it, it, it's all anyone's talking about. And it's probably at, at, at as high level as there has been coming into an Ashes series. So, uh, it's certainly not all doom and gloom, but there is this challenge that people with far, far more knowledge and experience and, and knowhow than I've got, are going to have to keep addressing, which the polarization of, of the teams involved. And, you know, my personal view is that one of the most enlightened approaches to this is New Zealand Cricket and how they're being very pragmatic and allowing guys to where possible play the franchise cricket and earn the money that they can't provide them with, but still welcome them back and to, to playing in the best Kiwi team in World Cups or in big, big international test series.
Mike Jakeman:Can I just drag you back something you mentioned a couple minutes ago, which is you mentioned like this specific. and the fact that you have tried with others to steer like Harry Brook's career towards them wherever possible what that made me think of is the fact that some of the selections by like Stokes and McCullum, duopoly have been quite unorthodox. You know, they're not just looking down the list of county averages and, and picking the players. So how much discussion is there? Like how do you get Harry Brook into Brendan McCan's mind?
Phil Weston, TGI:I don't think I have to do.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:A.
Phil Weston, TGI:He, he, he is a TGI client. Yeah.
Mike Jakeman:We have lunch at.
Phil Weston, TGI:he's not my client. And those, those those conversations don't take place like that. But, you know, the, the reality is you don't have to do anything with Harry. I'm not claiming any credit whatsoever for how he plays on the field. And, you know, I, I'm in awe of the talent that he has, but I think. What, what I always try and do is IE even with a player as good as that, you know, his journey hasn't been a smooth one the, you probably recall, I, I think as, as probably, I think he might've even been 21 and, and his career average in county cricket was probably below 30. At, at one point and he, he saw an opening alongside, uh, another client of mine, Andrew Gale, who was Coach of Yorkshire at the time. He saw an opening potentially into the England team as an opening batter. And if you remember, he had a period opening the batting in Red Bull Cricket for Yorkshire, and it didn't work. The idea was good. The, the, the intent was all, you know, is being consistent. He wa he wanted to play international cricket. He saw it as an opportunity. But, but he was, he was clever enough and me, he was given good enough advice from people around him to, to pivot on that and just play the game and play and, and back where he should bat, play how he should play. And, you know, the rest is history. But it, it's, it's very much. The, the role that I perform in that is, is just to be a sounding board in the background and, and, and to, to, you know, to sense check the decisions that are being made. But there are, you know, you've gotta be really careful as an agent that you're not overstepping the mark. I, I, I've tried to, to tread that line and probably it makes it harder that you were a player, even though I wasn't at that level. know, you may, you may have your opinions, but you've generally gotta keep those opinions to yourself unless you are asked for them.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I suppose the, the risk is it's the player, like, I'm trying to think of an example. So someone like Keaton Jennings, he's supposed to be an opening test player. That's what the career trajectory should be, but then he's not made it into the, you know, he is, he's not in the team, and you are now, you are sort of stuck in the middle there. You are not a classic T 20 player. You're also not in the small group of players are gonna make money from Red Bull.
Phil Weston, TGI:Well, you y yes and no. So, so Keaton Jennings is a client, as is Alex Lee. So you could probably class in the same, in, in the same way. And the conversations that, that you have with someone like Keaton are different to, you'd have with a guy like a, you know, the opposite of that might be someone like Tom Kohler, Catmore of mine. And you know, in, in general, you can't Uh, enormously the player that you are, and you either fit with, with how that regime sees test cricket or, or you don't. But there are little things that you can do to improve yourself and, and to acknowledge that the game is changing. So Keaton, for example, is a
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay.
Phil Weston, TGI:underrated white ball player. And he has consciously tried to develop that side of his game and he is, had a little bit of success with that and we've had a little bit of success with that. You know, he's played in the hundred now for the last couple of years. He's played as an overseas player in Big Bash and you know, he's still got ambition to, to do more of that. equally, we are seeing a little bit now in the game where there's still a niche for a player like that county level. And the, the rewards are growing slightly at county level. For a top, top quality overseas, uh, sorry. Top quality overseas or domestic? Top order batters are highly sought after in county cricket, and they can, you know, fetch a financial premium that they probably didn't in, in, in the past. Equally, bowlers are, you know, bowlers are like, he's teeth. And any, any quality domestic bowler will be well rewarded at, at, at county level. Whether he goes one step further and plays in the hundred or, or not, know, some of the best bowlers that I have clients in domestic cricket have amazing records in county cricket, but, but, but are unlikely in the current regime to, to, to play international cricket. So I like the likes of a Ben Code or Orion Higgins. You know, constantly do really well at county level but don't maybe have the pace that the current regime are looking for.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:we need to talk about the hundred and. the player auction process, necessarily about the hundred, but the IPL or wherever you want to make it, but that, that has become just such a feature of, the theater around it. And I remember, you know, the IPL and it was interesting, the set up of the IPL people forget the role of. I think it was, is it Bart Thom who was the, essentially at the time, I can't remember the new, the New Zealand, the he, he
Phil Weston, TGI:Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Campbell. And, you know, in terms of player agency role within, you know, the, the whole process, can you just sort of take us through that? What is it like the auction and how do you approach it and what's your sort of just general view of it as a thing now in cricket?
Phil Weston, TGI:I think, people underestimate how much work goes in pre auction from everyone. the teams Now, if you look at the IPL franchises and, and the companies that have multi, multi franchises and different leads, they, they have a very sophisticated, process of data analysis. You know, I, one, one of my clients is a, is high performance manager at one of the IPL teams. And you know, the, I understand the level of detail that they go through In looking at the, the, the individual that they may be targeting to, look at in the auction that they may be looking at, to retain, do they fit with their culture? Do they fit with the dimensions of their ground? Do they fit with their overall? Plan to how they're going to play. They look, they look at their potential to improve as, as individual specimens, as athletes against, where they may sit mentally. And then they're also analyzing figures in a different way than than used to be. Used to be analyzed. So, so the role of all of those individuals in a, in an organization can't be underestimated. And equally as agents, we shouldn't be underestimated in terms of the level of detail that we are going to, to try and give our clients the, the, you know, a, a little added advantage.
Mike Jakeman:If you are as an agent, if you are prepping one of your players for. The, I, I mean, what I mean, to me it's, it's, well, you, you put your name forward and you pick your price tier. What, what more is the to it that I've considered?
Phil Weston, TGI:Well, it, it starts before that. So, and it does depend on the players. So if you, if you are managing, Well, let's, let's use Harry when he went to Sunrise's Hyderabad for what was then a record fee for, for a rookie. In, and, and if you remember, he didn't have a central contract at the time. The reason we wanted him to go into the IPL was, again, it wasn't a financial reason, it was a cricketing reason. He, he wasn't an England regular. And we wanted him to be able to play in the, you know, the preeminent tournament in the world. We wanted him to be able to himself in, in, in, in big games, but also to rub shoulders with the best players. So with him. There was a degree of just making sure that everyone was aware how good he was and was going to be, and it wasn't really a scientific process and it, it didn't need the level of detailed selling that you may need for a player that is, is a little less well known and is, and is coming in on heralded than he was. So, so the media did a lot of my work. In, in the lead into that auction. You know what I knew, having spoken to several of the teams, I, I pretty much knew that he was gonna get, get teams bidding for him. I didn't know where he was gonna end up, and I didn't know how much money he was going to get. And that is the, you know, that, that, that's the stuff that you can't know for sure in an auction. And, and in that case, you know, we were pleasantly surprised. But equally, you know, I, I'll give you a couple of other examples, players that, that I think. Deserved the opportunity to play in the IPL, but because they weren't well known international players, Tom Kohler Camo played for Stan in in one IPL. He could, he could definitely have played in more ipls and it was something that I, I was really keen to get him into because it was, it was a bucket list goal of his and one that. We felt might lead to more opportunities and, and potentially help him achieve his goal of playing international cricket for England. And we did a, a lot of work in the, in the lead up to that to with not just with raster, with other teams, trying to awareness of his strengths, his versatility where he, where why, why we felt he might play well in different, in different grounds because of where he hit the ball. And. We worked with him and we continued to work with him to try and develop the knowledge that people have about him. That he's, that for example, he can keep wicked and he can be one of the two or three keepers in a, in a squad in these franchise tournaments. So there's, that's hugely scientific, some of that. But there's preparation and there's planning and there's That certainly didn't exist when I began in agency.
Mike Jakeman:Without laboring the point that actual work involves trying to chase meetings with high performance managers of teams, sending them presentations. Like whatever you can do to kind of get them considering your client as opposed to. Make sure their databases, I mean, you tell us.
Phil Weston, TGI:Absolutely. We've, we've used in, in the past we've used external analysts who may be working for other teams in different tournaments, and we've, we've given them a brief. So why pick, for example, why pick, uh, Laurie Evans ahead of. Someone else, James Vince, who's not my client. we, We might give someone a brief to try and, and make a statistical case that probably was beyond us to, to do that. If we can make it ourselves, we will and will willing. And then, you know, all the tools. we create highlight reels. We create stat packs and analysis when required, but at, at, at times it is overkill. You've gotta remember that the, the teams themselves have people doing that as well. So you don't, you don't want to, you've gotta get the balance right. You don't want to pester people, and you don't want to overburden them with information, but you want to make sure that the information you provide is relevant and timely.
Mike Jakeman:Now we're moving into the, the 2020 sphere and you know, we've talked about these players that might hold six or seven contracts in a different teams across a year. You mentioned earlier the kind of the pastoral side of this, because this must be a, this is a whole new thing. County cricket for the summer, international cricket, if you were fortunate enough. And then, and then that was it. Whereas now if you are building a schedule that takes in 12 months, different countries, continents, teams, different codes, there's a huge amount of support that some teams will be able to provide and others, I imagine, don't. At least to the same extent, where does your role fit in making sure that players are making, once they've made the decisions for which contracts they're gonna accept to make sure that they then have the best chance of success
Phil Weston, TGI:It's a really good question, Mike, but it does depend on the player. Again, and what they can and can't do. So if you, if you're dealing with a centrally contracted England player, for example, they're not gonna have six contracts. So you've got to look at their share if you, if you're managing'em the right way. And you know, I, we'd like to think we do that as a company. You are looking and you're liaising. At earliest possible opportunity with the player and with with England to make sure that they're comfortable with what you are trying to do. And we are also aware that ultimately these guys are well rewarded with central contracts and England do control their movement. So we, we try and work within that framework and we understand that things may change depending on how the players are both mentally and physically. But we would in, in that instance, we would. How I start, for example, with, a, with a Harry Brook would be, I'd look, I'd look at the Future Tours program. I'd look at the calendar, and the first thing I'd try to schedule in is rest. And then outside of that, what could he possibly do on top of that rest and what does he want to do in terms, in terms of the cricket that he could play? And, and, you know, it's well documented that a couple of times he's, he's pulled out of the IPL. And, and again, going back to his, his personal ambition. Every decision that's been made has been made in, in, in, in, in the right way. And it's been made with the best interests of his, both, both his personal life and, and in the first time he pulled out. But also in, in terms of his, his mental and physical wellbeing so that he can do the best job he can for England. And sometimes you have to change, change tack, which we did there. The, probably to answer your question in a, in a more general basis. The same things apply to a domestic player. So depending on where they're from, the process that we're still having to deal with now involves players getting no objection, certificate certificates from their home board to play in these tournaments. So
Mike Jakeman:Okay.
Phil Weston, TGI:managing a Pakistani player, you know that they will get a limited number of n NOCs in a year. So what you need to do if you're managing them, is you need to, you need to cherry pick those tournaments. As ones that they're likely to be fully available for, and ones that you, you think their board are going to allow them to play in if you're managing an English player? You know, for example, uh, any, any, the, the new rules in the NOC processes pretty much allow the players to play anywhere they want to in the winter, providing they get themselves insured against their county contracts. But in the summer, unless they're white ball cricketers, they're not going to be allowed to play anywhere. In the summer, and the only competition that they'll be allowed to play in that overlaps the six months of the English season is the IPL. So you, you know, if you've got a really top quality English player towards the end of his career, but, or, or even the middle of his career, but is still keen to play Red Bull County Cricket, you, you have to allow that player to play as much cricket as he can in the winter. you, maybe you're a little bit less selective than you would be with a player who's got the full 12 months to go on.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:we talked about the women's game and how many I, I guess there's a question about the, are the same dynamics at play in the women's game? Just give us a frame that for us,'cause I say it's, it's front of mind because we've got a big tournament coming up next year, but we also. Talking to the ECB on a, you know, fairly regular basis about the women's game and the role of the hundred and how that's developed. You know, that's become a a, a key story in the whole thing. Just paint us a picture from your face, what you see, and both, you know, a sort of strengths of weaknesses.
Phil Weston, TGI:I think I, first of all, I think the, the women's game, the, development in the women's game has been superb. It's been great to see. I wouldn't say it's been purely organic and it, it hasn't, you know, the a hundred has played a, played a big role in that. there is still still some way to go. I think in terms of the base level of domestic cricket in some countries. I mean, South Africa just got to a World Cup final without a professional base in their own country, which if you start to see that develop, and I think there is a lot of pressure for them to create a, a female SA 20 tournament, which would be great. but the, the strides that have been made in the women's game have, have been deliberate from the major boards. And they, they, they've been needed and I, and I'm, I'm sure that they're going to be front and center in the next changes and, and, and how cricket evolves in the next 10 years.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:just remind me who represent on the women's side.
Phil Weston, TGI:So, so we, we, we, we have a number of clients around the world, uh, ranging from the likes of a, a mega lanning who was, is probably Australia's greatest ever player to a lot of current internationals. We've got, we've got guys like Alana King, George Wareham in Australia, in the uk. I'll miss people out, but we, we've got a number of centrally contracted, uh, England female players, the likes of Fre Kemp, Charlie Dean, Lauren Bell, Maya Busier Danny, Danny White Hodge. We, we manage a lot of coaches around, around the female game as well. so we've recognized, I think, quite early in the piece that. Direction of travel was the women's game. One was needed, and two, we've tried to get in at the right time and build an influence in women's game.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:There's a question about what fame is now, and this applies to men and women, but in terms of the, the, the women's game, a lot of it seems to fall on the individual player to, you know, be their own creators, be on Instagram. Lauren Bell is brilliant at this. Be on TikTok, be on Instagram, create a noise around, the personal brand, which is fine. And you hear that in, Team gb, Olympians, the same sort of question applies is actually where the responsibility starts and stops. How much'cause there, the, the team bit in women's sport, football, rugby, and cricket is where the hard work is. I, I always think,'cause you've got a, you've got a nascent sort of a group of players and you've got the England set up, but it's, it's the sort of beat of club sport that is the problem.
Phil Weston, TGI:this is, again, this is just a purely, purely personal view, but I, I think you're right. I think the the team base and, and, I think how England, this is just again, just an armchair fans view, not an agent's view. But I think the, how English, the female game is gonna go from strength to strength is in the quality of the cricket below the England team, so that there are, you know, a wider pool of people that they can pick from wide, a few pool of women they can pick from, and that the pathway through is, is providing more and more quality players for them, for them to pick what, what you were alluding to in terms of how they. Handle themselves commercially, how they market themselves. Some of that is, I think that's probably a generalization, a little bit. I think there are a lot of men that are, you know, heavily now, uh, influenced by what they do social media to sell, to sell themselves and, and their
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Phil Weston, TGI:I've, I've gotta guy like Laurie Evans, who's really keen to promote some of the things he, he's doing in golf. Is involved in several projects.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah, no, I wasn't suggesting it wasn't, it was only the women doing it. It seems that, that it's disproportionately more important for them because you haven't got a club infrastructure in the same way.
Phil Weston, TGI:I mean that that infrastructure's there now really particularly in, in the English game, in the Australian game. I, if you look at Lauren for example, I think she's brilliant at it and she loves it and it's something that she really enjoys. I'm not trying to, to dodge that, that observation. I
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:It.
Phil Weston, TGI:think, I think, I think you, you know, you, you, you're probably right Richard, that, that they, they are, and, and of course, you know, the, the moment they don't have equal pay. So any, any commercial revenue that they can generate on top of that is, is probably more valuable to, to the female players at the moment than, than the male players at the top of the game. obviously that, that, that gender gap is, is not as wide as it used to be and it is narrowing but it, but it's still there.
Mike Jakeman:I get where, where Rich is coming from. And I, I do wonder whether it's because we have this association, when we think of women's sport, we think about growth and development, making it bigger, and therefore it sort of matters to know what they're all doing all the time to make the game bigger. Whereas we don't, the same pressure doesn't exist in men's cricket because it is so well established, nobody. To the same then don't ask the same questions of the men's cricketers about what are they doing to grow the game, because the game exists and it's
Phil Weston, TGI:Yeah,
Mike Jakeman:it's,
Phil Weston, TGI:I'd agree with that.
Mike Jakeman:it's safe. But what I, what I'm interested in from you is, is how well you think Cricket as a game, and we can make this an England focused question, if that's easier, is selling itself. The sort of general public. And this fits in with our kind of mention we've had of the ashes and the fact this is, this is these test series, this is what, this is what some people think of cricket. Is cricket. And you obviously mentioned some quite bullish things about the mood in, in Australia, a away series. I obviously don't catch the captive imagination in the UK quite the way that uh, they do, uh, when they're at home. But still, what's your sense from kind of commercial point in how well cricket as an entire sport is doing to kind of sell itself to the kind of public consciousness?
Phil Weston, TGI:I would, I would probably defend a co, a couple of the governing bodies. They do get, they get a lot of stick in some areas, but I, I think. England. If you look at England and Australia, I think we're doing a really good job of doing that. And I think we, you know, you, we, a huge portion of the TV revenue that comes in is, is for international cricket still. And if you look at the gate receipts and we, we sell out test match grounds well in the uk not just against the major. Playing, you know what you, you'd call this the sort of India and Australia's. We do, we do well in the, against the other teams as well. I think Cricket Australia does, does a really good job as well. But it is, the issue goes back to what I've alluded to before. Can the game sell test cricket better? Undoubtedly it can. And how, what it's gotta do is it's got to focus outside of England. I think. I think an Asher's series to a degree sells itself still. And I, and I'll stand by what I said. I think that the, the, the degree of expectation, I'm going out to Perth for the first test, and find accommodation in Perth for that week. And you have to pay three or four times what you'd normally have to pay. in, in Perth. So it, it's almost got a, a slight, not a slight. It's, it's definitely got a, a flavor, like a Lion's tour for for the English public. And people want to go and they, they want to watch and they want to be at the MCG on Boxing Day. The issue, I think for test cricket in selling itself and for for the ICC, but also for all the governing bodies, is when, you know, when you're playing a home series against Sri Lanka in, in May and you're trying to fit in a series. If you Cricket Australia, you're trying to fit in a series at the top end against Bangladesh in August. That, that, that's the challenge we've got. We've got so much cricket that there are so many buy and trilateral series in, in, in, in white wall cricket. That test cricket sometimes gets lost a little bit. I think and how you get over that, not for me to decide, but I think there's too much cricket and I think there has to be a diversion of. and money some way via the, the ICC to allow some of these boards to, to, to reward players and to, to encourage the quality of test cricket that they used to be.
Mike Jakeman:Are we approaching the tipping point where you are? And this, can you answer this with reference to your clients, I suppose, where the, the franchise contract which might take a player to Cape Town, Mumbai and New York, uh, in a year is of more significance than their international contract, where your leading guys and ladies are gonna be, Uh, club players first and then international second.
Phil Weston, TGI:that happens now, and it, and it will continue to happen, but it will be more of a threat. Again, I go back to, it'll be more of a threat for countries. Outside of India, England, and Australia. and it is a threat. it is a reality at times now as well. So what we have to do is we have to try and keep, I think we have to try and keep international cricket, particularly cricket as relevant as we can be, but we've got to acknowledge. is a changing landscape and try and be pragmatic in how, in how we handle that. So our central contracts the way to go for certain countries, I'm not sure they are, and they need to have a wider playing pool to allow their stars. I mean, I, I go back to New Zealand Cricket, we manage a lot of New Zealand players, uh, ourselves as a business and their governing body. I think. is superb and the way, the way they handle the players, the way they are pragmatic in their approach and recognize that their players, you know, have a right to earn as to earn a good, as good a living as they can whilst getting the balance right, that they still have a great culture and a their national team. And they have a very strong national team, particularly in the big, the big series and the big tournaments. it's almost a strength because they're developing a player, a player base. In, in probably the, the lesser tor lesser tournaments and lesser series by allowing, you know, your, your Trent Bolts, your, your Henry's or whoever it may be to go and play in a franchise tournament. Occasionally. It doesn't have to be as black and white as maybe it, it has been in the last few years is.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay. Right. Listen, Phil, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it. And, uh, what are your hopes for the ashes in terms of where you're sitting? Well, just give us a,
Phil Weston, TGI:Oh, I want, I, I want don't tell our Australian clients, but I, I obviously want England to win and, uh, I, I really want it to be just a, a fantastic series for, for the game. I want, I want it to be as exciting as it can be. If it's anything like the India series in the summer,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Phil Weston, TGI:then, then brilliant. But, but no, I want England to win. Make no mistake about.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Fantastic. And Mike, thank you very much for your time.
Mike Jakeman:Thank you, Phil.