Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP526 Nikki Doucet has the most interesting job in British sport
Nikki Doucet has the most interesting job in British sport and one of the most difficult. Certainly, everyone in the sports business has an opinion on what the CEO of WSL Football should do to capitalise on the potential of women's professional football in England.
The role wrestles with many of the conflicts and trade offs currently at play across the sports business - open vs closed leagues, sport as entertainment, the anti-DEI lobby vs progressives culture wars, the changing definition of a sports fan in the digital platform era, the role of private investment in leagues and teams. The tenure of her job may be a few years, but the decisions taken will have a disproportionately large impact on women's football for a generation. Some want her to go quicker, to bring in private equity and blow it up. Others want her to focus on the long term, and build with the entire pyramid of women's football in mind.
But what does Nikki Doucet think?
Listen to find out.
This episode of the Unofficial Partner podcast is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport.
Sid Lee Sport is the fame-making creative and sponsorship agency for brands in sport. Through exceptional creativity, deep sponsorship expertise, and flawless on-site delivery, they help brands, sponsors, and rightsholders unlock their full potential in sport - most recently picking up a Leaders Sports Award for their work with Lidl at UEFA EURO 2024.
Everything they do is driven by a culture of effectiveness - because in sport, performance matters. Not just on the pitch, but in the work too. So whether you want to build buzz, connect with audiences, or do something that actually cuts through, Sid Lee Sport knows how.
Visit sidleesport.com
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Hi there. Welcome. It's Richard Gillis here and welcome to the first episode of Unofficial Partner for 2026, our guest is Nikki DiSette, who is CEO of WSL Football, the organization, which is in charge of the Women's Super League, divisions one and two. So she's got a big job at critical time and it's a really interesting conversation. Just some details here on Nikki. Her early career was in investment banking at Citigroup. She has an MBA in finance from the University of Toronto, eight years. She worked at Nike from 2013 to 2021, rising to general manager of Nike women in the UK and Ireland. And she was appointed in November, 2023 to the job of CEO of NewCo, which was the forerunner of WSL football. As you'll hear, we talk about the commercial side. I think just some detail on that. the League's title sponsor is Barclays, which is a 45 million pound three year deal from 25 to 28. It's 15 million a year. The broadcast, media writes 65 million. Over five years from Sky, which is, works out to be about 13 million pounds a year. So that's 118 matches, 78 of which are exclusive. Also, a deal includes the BBCs 21 games on the BBC and 34 on YouTube. Total revenue for the league is 28 million a year, which is up from 10 million, which is in the the number from the Pre Women's Professional League Limited Days and part of the structure is the loan from the Premier League, 20 million pounds interest free, on the agency side. You've got two circles working through to 28 and 29. That's a relatively new relationship. Selling sponsorship and the international media rights are with IMG, the competitive landscape of the WSL Chelsea of won eight times six consecutive have been unbeaten in 20 24, 25. Arsal are the current champions league holders beating Barcelona in the final London City line as we reference first independent club in the WSL Michel Kang's ownership. And there's been the first million pound transfer, Olivia Smith, who went from Liverpool to Arsenal in August of last year. Attendance is a question. We look at WSL 20 24 25 at is average 6,661, which is down 10% from 7,371. I think those figures are from my old mate, Matt Cutler, from our sister podcast, expected Goals with Matt Cutler and Maggie Murphy, and those numbers are in Matt's very valuable spreadsheet, WSL two. Last year's average was 2086, which is up 108% includes a record. 38,500 people who went to watch Newcastle versus Sunderland. I go into much more detail about both this conversation and what I think its implications are on Substack. So if you are not on Substack already, you should do so and follow Unofficial Partner. You'll find us there. Many people already do and receive the newsletter. This episode of the Unofficial Partner Podcast is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport. Sid Lee Sport is the fame making, creative and sponsorship agency for brands in sport through exceptional creativity. Deep sponsorship expertise and flawless onsite delivery. They help brands, sponsors, and rights holders unlock their full potential in sport. Most recently picking up a Leader's sports award for their work with Little at Uafa Euro 2024. Everything they do is driven by a culture of effectiveness because in sport performance matters not just on the pitch, but in the work too. So whether you wanna build Buzz, connect with audiences, or do something that actually cuts through Sidley Sport knows how. Visit sidley sport.com where brands become champions.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Yeah. Well, you know, people make people make an effort.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:yes, I tried. I even, I even put a little makeup on this morning.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Well, I'm beyond that stage, so I'm beyond saving. So, you
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:No, never.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :well on
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:You look great.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Thank you very much. I'll, uh, I'll take that. they give you a day off for New Year and Christmas and all that,
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:I did, I actually, well, we have a mid, we have a mid-season break, which is actually part of our governance, which I think we should protect at all costs because, uh, I think, you know, we'll get into it obviously, but the last couple of years we've been running. I think everyone needed a break, so I did get a break and I haven't taken a break in a long time, and so I feel great right now. I had, I had days where I got like nine hours of sleep.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Incredible unknown.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:yeah. Did you have a good break? I.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :very nice. Actually, very lazy break. We had quite a long break, December, I dunno about you, but it just close, everything closes down so Christmas is now three weeks long and you know, There's two things. One is I met you almost the week you got your job. There was a a do that we were both at at, and it was the sports news lobbies Christmas thing in Knightsbridge.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Yes.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :I think it was ju literally the first week or two of your job in November, it must have been
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Yes. Joanna Manning Cooper took me, yeah,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :That's
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :And so, and I was sort of thinking, yeah, so. You know these things. Oh, you think, oh, it must be, it feels like yesterday, but actually, that's now, we're now into, this is the three years.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:It'll be three years. I started as a consultant at the end of January and then. Two years officially signed the contract in the actual role as of last, as of November,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Because there was a sort of period where there was nothing to be CEO of, was it that? That was a kind
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:correct?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :hybrid period.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Yeah, they hired, I went through the process and they said, you're the preferred candidate. They said, but actually the job doesn't exist yet'cause the company doesn't exist yet. Would you join as a consultant and work with the clubs in the FA to figure out what the new coach should look like and be governed and with no guarantee that you're the CEO at the end of it? And I said, okay, here we go.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :So this podcast, it's listened to and the guests we get on are, there's people in your, on your side of the fence, you know, on the sort of running sports bodies. Organizations, but we also get a lot of people on the other side. So from, you know, the media side, the sponsor side, increasingly the money side, so the finance and private equity types who are looking at sport and tech platforms. I sort of think it's interesting when I talk to them, you get a lens into what sport looks like through their. Eyes, and it's really interesting how often the WSL and women's football comes up in the conversation.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Oh really?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :as,
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Okay.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :in the run of play, it's people are really interested in it, are interested in the sort of growth of it. You will know that people have got lots of opinions about
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Yes.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :and shouldn't do and all of these things. And I just, and, and sometimes you think, I wonder why that is. I can sort of, I think I understand why, but why do you think it is? Why are people really. Engaged in this as a business conversation.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:I think there, well, one, I think, I think there's two main reasons. One is, uh, there's a massive tam that I think there's actually untapped potential. And if it, if it's done properly, it's the next 30, 40, 50 years of growth,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Yeah.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:of incremental growth. Um, so I don't see it as taking. It, it makes the pie bigger. and I think the second thing is that it's because it's at such an early stage of development. There's still, you're still, we are building things from scratch. And I think that's also, from my perspective, it's super exciting me to be building a business. But if I think about, if we were even a year ago to now, we hadn't done the new brand yet. We didn't have a website set up yet. We were still just a few months coming out of the fa. We hadn't officially signed all of our new partners yet. all of the sports science were setting up. We hadn't done the expansion changes. There was just, so, even just in, you know, less than 12 months, what we've done from a business perspective, we didn't have our own office yet. so I just think, you know, setting it up uh, and starting. even just the tech platform and the tech stack from a, from what we need to do to enable the business, to have the data and analytics that's required, by today's fan and by businesses, that part I feel is also really exciting.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Yeah, I think it sort of combines, a, there's a few things I think that are going on and one of the, the threads that I wanted to talk to you about is I don't think know what the future holds across sport. I'm not talking about the WSL or women's football, but the sort of old certainties. Are coming under pressure, aren't they? And,
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :The old money if you like. That was model was fairly secure and safe, and people understood it. And now we're looking at a sort of sport as entertainment, sport as products, sport as a sort of asset to be invested in. the questions are changing. And I think that's not, that's again, broader than women's football and, and the WSL, but. There's a, a sense of there's so many new things hitting the market lots of different, you know, from golf to cricket, to rugby, to, paddle. All of these things that, again, on a podcast like this, you sort of get people on saying, right, this is the new thing. And you start to have an audience conversation, you start to have a business model conversation. and WSL seems to encapsulate a lot of that again, which is exciting. And that's why I think people In the, as a business,
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Yes.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :surprised you along the way?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Um, that's a good question. Um, I tried, I don't know. I don't, I didn't really come in, I guess I came in with my, uh, perspective and a point of view of, of where I think I could grow. Um, but I also co I I, because I didn't grow up in England and I grew up in Canada and in North America, the biggest thing I think that surprised me was just the difference in the perception of, of women's sport and female athletes versus how I grew up. And I still think that today that is still the difference in terms of just. The values and where they should be and that, I think the North American market is slightly ahead because of where of Title IX and, and Canada kind of, um, while we don't have a Title IX like the US does, I think we, you know, I grew up the way, I never had anybody tell me I couldn't,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :heard of Title IX and I
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:right.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :just, just give me a one minute Title ix. Why? Why is that important?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Title IX in the US was a law that was done in 1971, uh, that basically said for any school to get federal funding, it had to provide equal access to sport for females. Um, and so. It allowed, I think, a respect between boys and girls from a very, very early age around one benefit of sport, but also allowing girls to have access to play sport in any sport. Not just, this is a sport you play'cause you're a girl. This is a sport you play for because you're a boy. Um, and I think I certainly benefited from that because I had access to a gym teacher. I played with the boys. I never had any parents telling me that I couldn't play a sport'cause I was a girl and I always thought that was my superpower. Now, not to say North America's perfect, but over, I still think one of the, the opportunities we have is how sport is top between boys and girls in schools. And I think that will translate. Um, you know, into the future, into a more respectful society and a more and a healthier society.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :So I look at the WSL and I see a sort of campaigning brand. You quite often reference it as a startup, and I'm gonna ask you about that in a minute. And you've mentioned Tam, and I'm gonna ask you about that in a minute. But we are talking about title nine, there is a campaigning element. To the WSL and this morning, your very efficient, comms team sent over Mercedes-Benz deal, which is, which is sort of, uh, announced as we speak almost. Let's talk about the sponsorship question because a, quite often people at the WSL and women's football and it's presented as a sort of purpose, brand, purpose play. I want to talk to you about that because you've got this Nike background and you know audiences and you know brands. So just talk to me about what are Mercedes and Barclays, what are they buying when they look at the WSL?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:They're buying access to a great audience and a great product, and they're also buying into the ability of building growth. They're in a growth economy. I mean, we are, I, we'll go back to the Tam question. When I look at the most recent u gov data suggests there's around 500 million people who say that they're a fan of women's football globally.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Hundred million.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:500 million. And so we have around 79 million people globally that somehow engage or follow the WSL what through our social channels, through YouTube, through um, our clubs. You have,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :that number again? Sorry, that that
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:79 million. Globally who engage or with in somehow with either our clubs, channels, the WSL channels, through YouTube, through social, whatever that looks like. Then you have, when you get into the actual UK audience, there's around 29 million people who say that they are a fan of women's football. We would have 15 million unique audience from a, a domestic. Broadcast perspective, and then we have a million people coming annually from an attendance perspective. So when I look at that funnel, you know, there's, and we would say when you look at the demographics within that, a third of the fans are new to women's football or new to football. And so that's, we have a, a relatively new fan base that is learning behaviors, and they also have different expectations than perhaps traditional men's football. almost 40% of our ticket purchasers are female, and around 42% are between the ages of 18 and 34. So we have a different fan base that has different expectations for our clubs and for our league, and I think. A lot of the companies that are coming on board are coming at it from a value perspective because we are still building. So when I look at the sponsorship that we're bringing on board, you look at starting with Barclays who, you know, continue to deserve such a massive shout out in their support of women's football over the years, they've doubled their investment. They wouldn't be doubling their investment if they didn't see value creation. Nike coming on board and, and continuing their partnership at this time, extending it so that they're providing boots and, and gloves to all of our players across both leagues so that our players, you know, have the equipment that they need to play. You have Apple coming on board, which is providing hardware solutions for all of the clubs. So it's starting to. You know, minimize the disparity that we have across our league in terms of access to equipment from the technical analysis to help create more ability for clubs to compete. We have British Gas coming on board helping fans either with, from a tariff perspective, access to tickets or pitch protection. We've got Subway that's just come on board in the last year looking, and they've helped us from a nutrition perspective. Also in partnership with the Well hq, which. Is helping us from a female athlete and sports science perspective. And now we've just announced Mercedes and they'll ultimately be the, you know, the presenting partner for our first ever playoff promotion playoff, which is also an exciting new element that we have this season.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :So that's a heck of a roster, isn't it? When you look at the, those names on that, that roster, one of the, areas I think that are interesting, you've got these potential contradictions or trade-offs that are running through. There's the growth and quality. Trade off trying to establish two divisions of teams whilst maintaining the quality competitive balance. The Chelsea question, which you'll be very familiar and you've answered a hundred times, so whether, you know that's that, there's that bit and there's the sort of the differentiation from the men's game whilst also tapping into the infrastructure, but also the brands. Of the men's game. So I think it's quite interesting. When you look at the sponsor question, you are saying that it's additive. Can you just explain what that means from a sponsor's point of view? In terms of what you are selling centrally and then what the clubs are selling? Because if I'm in a club commercial person, I'm thinking that's a great roster of brands that have just shown me that they're interested in football, women's football. How can I. Make, Hey here, this is what should be happening.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Well, I think the, the point that you made around the differentiation from men men's football is, Conti for me is very important. It's the same sport, different product. Fundamentally, it is a different product with a different value proposition, with a different fan base, with different athletes. And of being a female athlete is a fundamentally different experience than being a male athlete. And so, same sport, different product. And different behaviors from a fan perspective and from an athlete perspective, and what the athlete needs to perform is different than what a male athlete needs to perform. And so our brands also can provide different access and also tell different stories to their fan, to their consumer base through our. Product and through our storytelling channels, either through the athletes, the clubs, or the league itself, and you get access at the league level, it's our, at this stage of development, it's important that we raise the valuation floor. So those brands that you're seeing come on board are global leading brands. They're raising the valuation floor, they're, they get access to. All of the clubs, they can tell story, tell across our athletes, across the clubs, and then the global reach that we have. You know, I go back to the, the tam, but also what we're starting to build from a, a reach perspective. 76% of our broadcast audience is international and so. We have a global, when you look at women's football and the, and the various women's football propositions, we're an always, almost an always on pro annual proposition globally from a women's sport perspective.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :So I, I asked loads of questions from, I've, we've got a WhatsApp group and people who you know on it and lots of other people from across the industry, and I was sort of asking a few of them what they thought and they all landed on why are audiences down this year when you've had a Lion S'S victory, the trajectory should be That attendance number is getting in the way of the story, I'd love to know what, why you think that's happened, because it feels counterintuitive to everything you've talked about in terms of the size and the tam and the funnel. What's happening on the ground, what is not, not what's not working.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:So I, I disagree that the total audience is down. I, the total audience from our perspective and what we see is, is up. So when I look at our, our broadcast audience and our broadcast reach, our three minute reach certainly on Sky is up significantly year over year. We also have more, all of our clubs have been on Sky at least twice, whereas a year ago. N not every club had in the WSL had the ability to be shown on Sky. We also continue to have the reach with BBC, and then our international audience continues to grow. Our digital engagement and our digital audience continues to grow year on year. And September was actually our fourth highest month ever from a, from an engagement and audience perspective. And so we see our. We see our digital audience continuing to grow, and I think you see the club's digital audience continuing to grow the annual attendance. I think there's pockets of growth and then there's pockets of testing and learning and trying to figure out where the pain points are and what you're trying to solve for the fan.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :So just to put some numbers on the attendance. So I, I mean, again, put me right if these are the wrong numbers, but, so the attendance across the league at the stadium has fallen 10% from last year. Average attendance dropped from 7,371 to 6,661. That's the number that I've. And again, that's That's a different story. And we'll, in terms of the, growth and the startup and, and that's getting in the way of the narrative, and I just want to just hold onto that for a moment because we've seen the arsenal sellouts and we've seen the, you know, the, the big moments. But on the week by week challenge of getting people through the gate. What is not working?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:I think one of the biggest challenges we have is, is inconsistency. And so when you're a fan which stadium are you going to? What time is it? Is it easy to get to? Do you have what you have? And I also think the, when you look at the three year average. We're one of the fastest growing attended sports in the uk, so year over year people would've thought there might've been a massive bump off the back of the Euros. I think it's very difficult to compare it to the home Euros and coming off the back of COVID. I think that's a really unique circumstance, and I think it's different when it's in away Euros. And if you're not getting the same experience as you go to an England match versus your club match, I think that is what, especially if you're a new fan to football and you have a different expectation in terms of what you want your fan experience to be, I think. Each club needs to figure out how are you creating an emotionally connected fan base for your women's team, for your club. So I think each club, especially if you have a men's team, you have an emotionally invested fan base for your men's team that's happened over. Decades. Whereas I think you're still trying to determine how is a fan emotionally connected to your women's team and is that the same reason for your men's team or is it a different reason? And if it's a different audience, how are you talking to them? How are you storytelling? And how are the, how are you bringing them into your, into your stadium, and why should they be coming to support?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :And what do we, we had a we did a podcast with, joe from who runs Sky Sportswomen that tell on television, and the question there was who's watching? And the, their research suggests that it's a lot of men who are watching. And so again, I found that quite an interesting. And I've been trying to think, and this was about six months ago and I've been trying to think why that is. And some of it is men, 70% of Sky's audience is male and they buy the subscriptions and therefore, duh, it is gonna be a large male audience who are watching. but it was quite, it is quite a dangerous stat that because it runs against the marketing story of. It's about a new audience. It's about women. It's about young, cooler, more urban or less, you know, it's just less the traditional male football audience. And I can see a marketing conversation going one way. And then you've also, and the media Audi conversation is supporting that because of the digital numbers. And we can, we can talk about digital numbers and their validity and their relationship to fandom. But there is, the attendance is really the nagging bit, but also the, it's a lot of men who are watching, so you're trying to, this contradiction of new and additive with actually traditional male audience. You see where I'm going? That's that. I'm genuinely confused and I've been thinking about this for quite a long time and I ask people around the place on the research side. Everyone comes back to this question about who is a WSL fan.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Well, if we're doing it right, everyone's a WSL fan and if we're, if we have the right strategy across each of the
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :See, I wonder though, can I just interrupt? I wonder whether that is the right strategy and actually the big strategy versus much more targeted and narrow.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:There will be targeted and narrow in the right, in the right situations, but ultimately it's a sport that's for everybody and everybody should be able to watch it and find the reason for why they want to watch it. And when we look at our, our fan insights and our fan segmentation, we've looked at it on everybody's relationship to football, and so I think there is. What we would call a secondary fan who is traditionally someone who's come in through men's football and is now has an interest in women's football either because of the club or because they have family or kids. And that's how they want to introduce their kids to the club and that's their so and I see. And they are a significant part of the, of the fan base. You then have a core fan who you. Probably their relationship with football started with men's football, but now they found women's football for whatever reason, and that's their, they're the season ticket holder. And then you have the, what we would call the free fan who is new to football and is probably coming through the lioness. And they're, they have a fundamentally different relationship. With why they're watching and what they're doing. And so it's important that we have the right strategy across each of those segments because they each have different behaviors and different reasons for what they're watching. So the core fan, or the secondary fan wants a really strong technical analysis and the elitism and the athleticism and the. Football strategy is really important, whereas the free fans still learning what the offside rule is and we need some football 1 0 1 for them. And so the spectrum of how we have to communicate and bring new fans into the game, bring them down the funnel, find a reason for them to want to come and then ultimately convert to purchasing tickets and ultimately be a season ticket holder and find the club that free fan on BBC 80% of that audience doesn't follow a WSL Club. And when you look at the statistics of our new website that we've only launched in you know, a few months ago the majority of people coming through our website choose three to four teams. And so the behavior of some of, of our audience is slightly different. And over time it might be become more tribal like, might like men's football, but that will take time to develop the emotional connection to clubs, which might be slight, a slightly different reason. For why they're emotionally connected to a club, either through a player or through different reasons for what the club is doing for the community versus men's football.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Okay. Let's just pause on the fan for a moment and then look at, you mentioned tam, which again is a, you know, total addressable market, which is. Afin, you know, that's a cue into a financial conversation. And you are a former investment banker, so you have that background. And I'm really interested in, again, one of the running themes is what would radical change? What would a completely different strategy look like? What would a closed league much more focused, fewer teams, and you then go to private equity? And say, right, okay, let's have a very large number. You get an ownership of that new entity and we throw the kitchen sink at this and we move very much quicker. And there's two things in there. One is I'm interested in your, just your philosophy, I guess about private equity ownership and also open and close leagues.'cause again, people will. Hear a Canadian North American accent and make all sorts of preconceptions as to your lens into sport more generally. And one of the running things that we get on this podcast all the time is that European model versus American model. And you'll be very aware of all of that, but just, just unpick that for me'cause I threw a lot at you there. But you can sort of see that that's again, a running argument. It's a financial question and a
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:It is, and actually I'm gonna steal some of your language from one of your, I think, earlier podcasts. And I think it, I see it more around a concept of value creation versus extraction. And And
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :I, was quoting Warren Buffet, I
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:you were.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :so I don't wanna take too much credit. He's, you know, somewhat more successful at money than I am.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:and I, and I also, I am also shaped by more so I think by my experience at Nike and understanding the consumer and obsessing the product and the consumer, and there's. There's two things from that. One is there's an economic model in what the numbers will say, and you can build an economic model to show, yes, a closed league or something different or a radical change on paper, you know, has economic merit or can deliver returns or, or drive value. But then there is the emotional side of sport and the econ, the profit and economic side is transactional. But sport is emotion and there's certain parts of that. Like you can't, you, you, A number doesn't. I can't quantify in the same way. And the emotion of sport, the edges of sport, the edges of culture, and being on the forefront of that, of a product that, you know, people experience joy, that they love, like we're in charge of a, of a public entity and, and I'm, I might have this role for whoever long I have this role, but while I'm in this role, that's the responsibility. And and. It has to be shaped by the culture, by the emotion of sport, by people wanting hope. You know, they want to win something, they want, there's, there's not always an economic reason as to why someone's gonna go to a game and paint their face and cheer, and that's that the emotional connection of sport. You, if it becomes transactional, you've lost it.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :But the ba, the bankers would say, and you could tell me,'cause you used to be one, but they could say, you could get to, you could have both. You could have the money. And the structure sorted. The other bit, what you are talking about, about fandom and passion and culture, all of that should be achievable with both. I don't know whether that's true or not, but that's what their argument would be. It's just money you take it but we'll let Nikki sort out all of the important bit, the social bit. To what sport is. So there's sort of two lenses into sport and taking advantage of the money when it's available. During this, what could be quite a narrow window? I'm hoping that it's a 20 year window, but money doesn't and. We know the world doesn't work like that. So you are right. You are in an important job and it's a very, very focused period here.'cause the decisions you're making now are gonna have much of long-term implications up and down the pyramid. So I can, I know that it's easy for me to say, and there's a weight on you as a, as the post holder, but do you, again, it's that. Where the money is, what the money wants. cause you've, you had Goldman Sachs look at this. You've come in and, you know, you've looked at, you've modeled this and I'm interested in what conclusions you walked away from that process.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:I think if you're looking at. What the, what the strategy is to grow and if you are, if there are considerations for capital investment or investment required to grow the uses of funds is really important. And we've only been an independent company now for. Probably, you know, a number just over a year trying to understand what it takes to run this company and what's required to grow and what investment is required takes the right time. It's, and I think when you see capital being raised but not deployed efficiently. I think that it, I would rather making sure that with the clubs and our stakeholders and our board and also understanding the governance of football and all the various checkpoints you have to go through, decision making is not fast. And, and understanding. Where we, what's required and where investment needs to go. So even when you think about the talent pathway or referee development, or the technology required to build the foundation of the business and what that looks like going forward, or, you know, production expense development of talent, ex ex helping the athletes and making sure that they're set up for success. Those are the types of things in the conversations that we're having, but ultimately the clubs are the ones that'll create a great league. We have to have great clubs.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Okay. Michelle Kang is an interesting figure in this because trying to work out London City lioness fit in to a League of Liverpool, Chelsea Arsenal, spurs, There are sort of microcosm of this, a bit about this conversation, but again, instinctively, where are you on multi club ownership in terms of just the, as an idea and its role within football?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:We're still reviewing what I think our guidelines are around multi-cloud ownership, and it's really important at this stage that we enable. Investment to come into clubs and to come into the game. And I think we're still going through the review as to what would be the impact? How does it, does it, is it a positive impact, a negative impact? Does it impact the integrity of the game? And so we're still in the process of building out what the guidelines are from our perspective at this stage of development.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :What are your sort of priors in that? What's your instinct?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:My instinct is we need more investment in general, and you need to have the right capital base that is patient capital over the next 10 years at a minimum ahead of a potential home World Cup, which I think is the next massive inflection point, and that's what we're building towards. So. But you can't do it at the at, at the expense of game integrity.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :And how many Michel Kangs are out there, do you think? is this just a one-off that you'll have to deal with? And, and, and there's the multi club thing. There's one, that's one question about it, but there's also the, the, the investment. The buying of talent and the, you know, so in many ways it's a welcome edition. It adds color to what would otherwise be a list of very familiar football brands. So there's something new and different there, which is exciting. But then there's also the,, what the money does in, in terms of, the unevenness that you mentioned previously. And again, I just, I'm interested in what the, the other clubs are thinking. The, introduction of that new entity.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:I think it's interesting'cause I think it's creating a competitive tension. And when you see the league today versus a year ago, I think you're seeing an interesting table. I think you're seeing a more competitive league. I think going back to your earlier question around Chelsea dominance, over the past few years, Chelsea's also pushed everybody to be better. And is is forcing you, can't you, we don't wanna stop the top from growing or being great, but it's how do you make everybody else grow and become greater? So I go back to even an example in this is probably the wrong example for, but you know, in NCAA women's basketball. UConn was the best team for years, and this the same conversation would've been asked the time, but it forced everybody to be better. Now look how competitive women's college basketball is and now women's college basketball does more ad revenue on ESPN than men's college basketball. And so there is opportunity if we get great. Competitive results and have jeopardy and have hope in our league. And I think you're starting to see more hope. I think you're starting to see more competitiveness and people are being pushed to be better, which I think is a good thing. I think. We do have financial regulations. There is a cap in terms of how much owners can spend. But at the same time, you want to encourage investments so that we get the best players here. You want the best players here. You want the best marketable players in the world to come here, like who doesn't wanna watch those players? And so it's really important for, as our league, if we wanna be the most distinctive, competitive and entertaining league in the world. From a women's football perspective, we have to have the best players, and that means you have to have the best clubs, great performance environments that players wanna come and play in, and they can thrive and become a better footballer. It's one of the reasons I think the Euros was so competitive this year is because the majority of those players play in our league.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Yeah, it's interesting, the closed league argument I get, I'm in, you know, instinctively against it and then I, you know, some people can argue me round as a sort of short term. Device, but I've always thought as a, as a product, I mean, I'm not a huge fan of American sport generally. I'm just not in, you know, dunno much about it other than I've always wondered how, what happens in a closed league at the sort of two thirds, the bottom of the league. There's no tension there. There's no jeopardy. And the incentive for the club to spend money and invest in the women's side if it was closed, goes away presumably.'cause you've just given them a safe haven again? Where are you instinctively on closed leagues?'cause I could sort of see a yes. Seal it for a while and then build value in these individual club brands and whatever. There's something that misses or something goes wrong. Where? Where, where do you think?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:I think the US market's just a fundamentally different market. So if I look at, if you look at the close leagues over there, if I use like the WNBA as an example, I mean, there's a draft system and there's an, there's talent pathway coming through through ncaa and, and there's financial incentives obviously for, for women and girls to go to college and play. Basketball and develop their brand. From that perspective, I don't, the same system does not exist over here. So I, I can see your point on the bottom line. You don't, you need to have a competitive league and I also think tradition over here is important. I think the way it's been set up and I think we're still I think the expansion that will happen next season. And the potential promotion, relegation. Playoff, I think is very interesting and I think. It it this year we've seen more investment both in I think the, the, Barclays Women's Super League and the Barclays Women's Super League too. And we've seen the most number of of teams apply for tier one and tier two applications. So I think at this stage. The last thing you want to do is eliminate hope, especially if you don't, if you're trying, if you're not trying to, if you don't know how many markets there are or how many clubs are owners as they start to see, and, and you know, we're, we're on the innovation curve. There's going, there's only, there's a, there's people who have had a first mover advantage and have believed in this market for a long period of time, and there's still some owners or some clubs that are starting to see, oh, actually. I can start to see how this could be additive. I can start to see how I could how this is a, a positive thing either for my club or I can see a return, or I see a financial model that works going forward. You know, we're still in that stage of trying to find trying to determine that. So putting breaks on, on cer or, or real constraints around it in the wrong way, you know? There potentially is, is implications around the talent pathway and blocking P girls from playing long term at this stage of development.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :yeah, yeah. When you look outside of football and, and. Other sports leagues, as you said at the beginning, it's we're at this weird time where you've got a wall of money that is looking at sport in various funds and then a whole load of new things popping up and either trying to challenge the, the sort of incumbent rights holders or just creating new things, or it could be social focus, baller league, Kings League type stuff. What do you like out there? Which bits do you think? Okay. Yeah, there, there's an interesting story that I'm going to sort of, keep an eye on.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:I like the bits that give the fans more access and. Data and analytics to engage as much as possible. So I think there's, and I think the, the younger generation is more attracted to the players and I think they're. But they, you sport's not going anywhere. And I think having a competition and a trophy that is worth winning and that has emotional value to winning it is something that obviously that's the reason why a lot of money wants to continue to invest in in sport because it is something that people wanna go experience, people wanna watch, but. They want to watch something that that means something. And I think it'll be interesting to see how some of these, whether they're just an entertainment property for money that players wanna play in for various reasons. I think live golf and PGA is an interesting example right now around that particular point of view for debate. So,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :And the danger is there. The danger is that you just create just an enter, just a, a game show, isn't it? I, again, we're at a strange time, I don't think, I think television sport is quite often has lost sight of the audience a bit. I see it quite often. Mistakes get made. You know, in terms of who they think or who they want to be watching, who they think are watching. There's a danger of just creating an entertainment product, isn't there?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Uh, Potentially, but I mean, you want it,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :I know you want it to be entertaining.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:want to, you want it to be entertaining. It just depends on why is it entertaining and and, and ultimately from. You have to, we have to be laser focused on are we getting the best athletes? Are they able to be out there in storytelling? Do do the fans have access to knowing them why they wanna be a footballer? Why, you know, being a female athlete slightly different than being a male athlete. Fleet in terms of the fan experience, the fan wants to know you can't just be a footballer. Like you look at Serena Williams as an example. She was, she was more than just a tennis player and she had to tell so many different facets of her life to gain the, the following, the fame that she has. Whereas, you know, a messier Ronaldo or a footballer. And they just have to be known as that. So the, the female footballer, you know, the fans wanna know more about them. They want to understand why are they playing, how, what made them so great, what inspires them. And I think there's a different storytelling and focusing on great product, great football, the rivalries around it, you know, understanding all of that and bringing that to the fan, focusing on that versus. You know, you have to know what your core product is and and ultimately what you're selling to the fan base.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :And what in terms of it is quite interesting at the the last Sky deal, was it where you unlocked some rights for individual players? Tell me about that.'cause that feels like that's part of that worldview. So you've got a sort of Leah Williamson argument where you've got this superstar who's famous beyond the Arsenal shirt, but it is also about Arsenal. But it's also about England and the line Ss. So what have you done to free up that? What's that conversation?'cause if I'm Sky, I'm thinking actually that's, that's value that's gone out the door there potentially. But you've managed to keep hold of something there. Can you just explain what that was?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:So the players would have clip rights within the sky broadcast so that they would be able to post a highlight or a goal through their social media channels during a match if they have someone who's managing their social media for them. I think it's we're still rolling it out to figure out the right ways to be able to do it. But from a Sky perspective, if, if, if that is happening, you're, you're able to reach and point to trying to create FOMO to come and watch a sky match. So part of it was trying to direct audience to make sure they knew where they could follow, especially if they're following the players. And so. I think it's still early stages because it's only, we only started in September to try and understand the best way to roll it out. Is the technology working? Is it easy? And we're still I think you'll see more of that next season. Or is the season's been the start of that pilot?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :And just again, a slight build on that, which is an interesting decision you made, which was to sort of the FA player that held a lot of the inventory of the league and you moved on quite quickly to YouTube. Can you just ex, what's your view of YouTube? Because again, you've got these two entities that I want to talk to you about. One is YouTube and the other is Netflix Park, Netflix for a minute. What happens when you put the sport on YouTube? Presumably the numbers that you were talking about in terms of the enormous digital reach that comes from YouTube or a large part of it.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:A large part of it does, but the, one of the purposes of YouTube was to help give visibility to WSL two. And so the, the audience numbers, and also I just think the, the product of, of FA player had served its time, and I think to invest in trying to make that particular product stronger and more fan focused. The natural, transition was YouTube. And I think what we're seeing off the back of that is also we're learning more about the audience and the, and the data and demographics and how and why they're watching. And also the, if you're getting the algorithm right with our channels as well as if the clubs have women's channels themselves, it helps to drive their channels and their engagement and their audience. And also having to drive some ad revenue from, from that perspective and trying to prove that particular model out. But a lot of it was also for WSL two, because they aren't on a broadcast contract at the moment. And because we obviously oversee both leaks, we need to be starting to drive value and visibility for WSL two long term.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :What do you get back from YouTube in terms of, of just audience information, but also money? How does it work?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Well, from audience information, we have all the data and. Analytics around who's watching, why they're watching, how they're watching. So a lot of them, for example, we know are actually watching on YouTube tv and not necessarily on their mobile device, which is interesting. And, and then there's, we've been able to sell some really good ad packages and so we're starting to earn. Add revenue off the back of that. And I think as we build out our own platforms, whether that's our website, whether that's, we now have an app that's in beta mode which some of our fans are testing for us at the moment, you know, we'll be able to understand what the revenue possibilities are off the back of that with, through what we're doing with YouTube.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :And can you see a sort of digital rights only package in the next media cycle? If, if you've, you know, established this global audience, is it always just gonna rest on YouTube?'cause obviously YouTube aren't the frustration that everyone feels with YouTube and the, the tech people is the classic. They're not paying rights fees. And so that. Conundrum. I'm not expecting you to have an answer to this, by the way, but there is a, the challenge there is what ha what you do with YouTube is it just a way of, okay, you're gonna monetize it via ads, but it's pennies on the pound compared to the rights fees.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Yeah, I think for the next ride cycle it's, it's, we, we need to be really thoughtful right now in terms of where we're investing across multiple platforms and how we're building audience. And and engagement so that we're maximizing optionality for the next right cycle. And so I think the market is, is going through an interesting time right now, and I think that's a few years away for us. And so at this stage, especially over the past year that we have, we have data now that we didn't have 12 months ago. And so we're still learning and making sure. We're making good decisions off the back of whatever that data is saying.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :I mentioned Netflix. Their relationship with sport more generally. It might be about the WSL, but just there's something different happening here, isn't there? And there is a sort of event approach that they've got. What do you look at when you see Netflix? What do you think Netflix is, is looking, is thinking when it looks at sport.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Well, I guess just based on their public filings or their recent media releases, I think they're, they're looking at events like you say. I think it'll be interesting to see what they do with the Women's World Cup. And how that performs and also how it, how it's produced. I think it's been interesting what they've done with NFL, but also, and some of the boxing events that they've had. I think WWE is a different type of property, which which is interesting from their perspective. And it'll be interesting to see how their, how their proposition, how their also their tech evolves. Long term's been interesting to see Disney plus I think with Women's Champions League and how they're producing it in multiple languages and how they're marketing it and showing in across from a global proposition. So I think we're learning a lot from, I think we will learn a lot from, you know, those recent investments by those particular properties.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :So in terms of, you know, Disney Plus is interesting in terms of the, the way in which they flagged an interest in women's football, obviously. You've got ESPN in the states and Sky over here, any other major deals that sit outside those two. Currently.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Yeah, I mean, Australia's a a a big market for us. Obviously we have a lot of Matildas playing in our league, and I think long term it it, you know, we are, we're the largest, we have the most global athletes in our league. So I think we have an interesting global reach. And we're seeing in different markets actually our numbers quite strong. So when you look at Brazil, when you look at South America. Even Mexico to a certain extent and especially'cause the World Cup will be in Brazil. I think there's some really interesting opportunities. A lot of our following on social is actually in Africa, in Nigeria, which is interesting. And and even in the Middle East we've done some a little bit with Dubai tv, just even over the past month or so, and we're starting to see some engagement there, which is interesting from that particular market. So. I think it's do you have the right, are the, do the athletes wanna come and is this the best showcase globally for them? And I think, you know, going back to, to them and also them being such a who the fans want to watch. And obviously we're, we're very lucky to have global brands in our league in terms of the clubs. So I think we have to maximize both of those things.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :It's interesting the ca a tv sort of case study in Brazil and, and the way in which that market has evolved with a creator led broadcast. As we're seeing bits of that bundesliga with Goldbridge over here. that's a sort of. An area where the women's game tends to be under serviced. I know that there is some activity around the sort of social media stuff on the creator side, but I don't know how you then encourage that. It's a, it's a difficult one. It has to be organic, it has to come from somewhere, but there's a a lack of that sort of infrastructure around the women's game and, and also on a club by club level. Would you agree with that?
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:I think there's massive opportunities that haven't been, that have, that are still on tap. That Yes, I think is, and I think in every, going back to our fan insights, every single segment says there's not enough content. And I think when you look at the volume of content in term across our, our league, across our clubs, I still think we have opportunity to continue to tell more stories and to get more share of audience as in the, in the global landscape. And I would like to see that increase in the future.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner :Okay. Well listen, thanks so much for your time, Nikki. Really appreciate you coming on and as I say, it really, it's, it's a full year. You've got ahead here just looking at your, the calendar coming up over the next period. It's full of full of stuff, not not least a world Cup. Next year you've got, promotion, reation, you've got the playoffs and you've got the end of the season in in May. So a full calendar. Good luck with it all.
Nikki Doucet, WSL CEO:Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.