Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP530 Spurs For Sale: Shirts, Gambling Bans and the Post-Levy Era
Ryan Norys is the Chief Revenue Officer at Tottenham Hotspur. This is a candid conversation about the commercial fortunes of the club as it brings the front of shirt sponsorship to market at a time of genuine uncertainty.
Spurs finished 17th last season. Commercial revenue grew 40% in three years. That tension runs through the entire discussion.
Norys' journey to Spurs was via City Football Group, WME, the LA Dodgers and Miami Dolphins. Now he's navigating the post-Levy era, the post-Son era, and a Premier League shirt market about to be reshaped by the gambling ban.
Why do the naming rights to the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium remain unsold, six years after coming to market?
What do the London NFL games actually look like from the US side?
- How commercial revenue climbed while league position collapsed
- The governance shift under Vinai Venkatesham and what it signals to partners
- Why Tottenham stopped actively selling stadium naming rights
- The honest assessment of life after Son Heung-min
- Local versus global fandom and what football clubs actually know about their audiences
- The view from Miami when the NFL comes to London
- Building value around what you can control when you can't control team performance
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The percentage growth in the last three years is higher than any other Premier League club, including Manchester City in the last three years. From a Tottenham perspective, I can't control what happens on the pitch, right? And I can't control the performance or the results. So I try to build value around what we control. It's always more difficult during the, the bad times. It's always a bit more fun during the good times, you know, but you can't really let yourself get too high or too low and you can't be emotional about it. You just have to build value around what you control.
Hi there, Richard Gillis here. Welcome to Unofficial Partner. That was Ryan Norris, our guest today who as Chief Revenue Officer at Tottenham Hot Spur is in charge of their entire commercial program. And it's a really interesting time for lots of different reasons to have this chat. Very candid, very open, really recommend it. Don't miss it.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:This episode of the Unofficial Partner Podcast is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport. Sid Lee Sport is the fame making, creative and sponsorship agency for brands in sport through exceptional creativity. Deep sponsorship expertise and flawless onsite delivery. They help brands, sponsors, and rights holders unlock their full potential in sport. Most recently picking up a Leader's sports award for their work with Little at Uafa Euro 2024. Everything they do is driven by a culture of effectiveness because in sport performance matters not just on the pitch, but in the work too. So whether you wanna build Buzz, connect with audiences, or do something that actually cuts through Sidley Sport knows how. Visit sidley where brands become champions. are you in the Spurs office at the moment? I can see all sorts of stuff going on behind.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, I'm in uh, in Lily White House at the moment.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:so the sort of conversation I was wanting to have, it's, it's talking about, first of all, we'll talk about you for a minute and then we'll go on to talk about the Spurs shirt Spurs as a, a commercial entity. I think it's sort of an interesting moment both in the shirt market, the Premier League shirt market, but also sponsorship more generally. in there. Let's talk about you for a minute. Your, I'm looking at your background. So you put me right. So, New Jersey Devils VP Corporate Partnerships. You've got the Miami Dolphins and Hard Rock Stadium on your cv. Three years VP Los Angeles Dodgers then Ooma and WME for a couple of years. And then as Roma. For a year. And then 2022, you went to Tottenham and as commercial director and now you Chief Revenue Officer. So I, I had a question about what, what's the difference between a commercial director and a chief revenue officer?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:It's a good question. From a commercial director perspective, my primary responsibility was sponsorship and then hospitality, sales, and premium. And I will say the one thing that you one area that you didn't mention was I spent. almost four years at City Football Group with Manchester
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Ah
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:from 2011 to 2015. So I only say that not, not to correct you, but just in case it, it becomes relevant as our, as
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:apologies. I, I will blame Claude. I'll go back and give Claude a kicking because he gave, he ran you through my uh, AI and um, they missed out Citigroup. That's incredible.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:No problem.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:are in a hallucination. You are your city. You know, it's like a sort of classic AI mistake. So yeah, so I, commercial director to chief revenue officer,'cause Todd Klein was chief. I'm, there's, there's sort of echoes of Todd Klein in here. He's at Chelsea now, but he was at Miami as well, wasn't he?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, so he was the chief commercial Officer when I was a commercial director, and effectively when he left to go to Chelsea I moved into, into the role of Chief Revenue Officer, which really isn't any different than his role. It's just a slightly different kind of title if
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And you report to the board, presumably that's the difference. Is it,
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yes. Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:What's it like at Spurs these days? What's the, well just gimme a sense of the, I'm a Spurs fan, so just gimme a sense of, of what's the atmosphere around the place.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:I would say generally it's, it's quite positive. We're obviously, you know, I don't think anyone is happy as, as Venia said, as well as the board with the performance on the pitch, but. You could feel the momentum and the shift in terms of the way the business is operating. We've had some, obviously tremendous success commercially. I think even in the, the three years that I've been here the commercial revenue has increased by 40%, but overall the sentiment is quite positive. I think the culture is, is evolving even better. So, since Vanai has kind of taken over as CCEO, so it's been, it's quite positive even despite what, you know, the media more portray.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And the shift and the sort of vinai reference there Daniel Levy left when did six months ago. So is that what you are referencing? Is it, is there a change in approach? I.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:I would say less of, less of change in approach, but there's just more governance across the club, right. So as well reported, you know, we've had a three person board. and then there was kind of a couple of different layers. We now have an executive team that meets weekly that fully kind of supports the board and, and makes kind of decisions in a collective manner. So I think that's probably the biggest shift in change is there's a bit more governance at the top, specifically w with the executive team
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And who's on the exec team? Just so I.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:So it's myself Adam Gardner, who, who joined recently as CMO Kate Miller, also who joined recently as, as Chief Communications Officer. And then we have Rob Pickering, who's been here a little over a year as Chief Technology Officer. And then you have Angela, who's the Chief People Officer, and then Katie Reed. He's been here for I think probably the longest outside of myself. As, as the chief legal officer. And then you have Matthew Ko Vanay
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay. and that's a shift.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:sorry. We, we'll have the director of football operations uh, fus joined. Will, will join the exec team as well.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So director football's on there as well.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:they will join, yeah, when he um, when he joins the
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay. That 40% increase, that's interesting. So let's start there. What's, why, what's happened there that has caused that number to, to go up? Is it the stadium?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:I think the stadium has a bit of it, but we've also essentially built kind of a, a modern digital platform for sponsorship, right? So when you think about Top Number or Spurs in general, you have an unbelievable stadium. You have 25 events per year outside of football, and then obviously you have a football and you have to develop the, the commercial operations around that. And I think what we've done really well is we've with the media house or the clubhouse in the trading center, we have an unbelievable place to create content. We've created a, a digital first kind of. Mentality or strategy as it relates to commercial partnerships? So how do we drive really essentially ROI for, for businesses? So how do we integrate content distribution and conversion?'Cause if you look at sponsorship today, it's more of a performance channel than anything else. And I think we've done a tremendous job in and basically creating that around not only myself, but, but I have a tremendous team as well that that's supporting me.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So you are looking at the shirt as interesting in the shirt as a performance channel there not a brand awareness channel.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Exactly. Yep.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Why? What makes you say that?'Cause I always assume it was an, you know, it's a sort of an awareness play. One of the stories of the betting era has been, I know we're gonna talk about that in a minute, but the betting brands have used it as a, as a sort of an awareness tool, whereas you are saying it's something different.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, I think it's a bit of both, but you know, obviously the shirt is identity anchor. It's, you know, effectively kind of the heart of the club and it's the most redistributed asset, right? So from broadcast highlights, photography, social. All the moments that travel the far furthest, it's kind of that mainstay, right? But the value comes from basically the system that's built around the shirt, right? So this is content rights social distribution, how you integrate creators into it, data activation, measurement. So it's quite it's quite significant, but it's really that, that kind of system that you build around it that helps to amplify it.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:The 40% increase. That's been a mixture of just more sponsors who wa who are sort of buying the performance marketing solution or how much, how much of it is this is match day?'cause that appear my, again, the sort of top line reading is, okay, well that's the new stadium and that's led to a much more higher yield per fan. And all of those questions.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:so matchday has increased as well. There, there's no doubt, right? And I think, but that piece of it is a bit less year over year. You know, you're talking maybe anywhere from a three to 5%
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:the sponsorship component. The percentage growth in the last three years is higher than any other Premier League club, including Manchester City in the last three years. From a Tottenham perspective, it's, I guess, kind of bringing on new partners. So if you look at our. Our, our brands that are associated with this, they've all elevated to, to a higher level of brand. Then you factor in the digital marketing, the performance marketing piece of it. We've restructured the way that we approach partners and brands. Even if you look at the construct of the team, you know, we have very few salespeople, but we invested heavily into kind of a data and insights team as well as creative. And we also have a digital amplification team that sits within sponsorship. So. When we sit down in front of a brand, they're asking, you know, what does this do for us? What do we get? What does this drive? And we're able to, to show value from sales, traffic data capture trial, you know, it's, it's going. Well beyond impressions. So I think it's, it's more of the way we're communicating and, and targeting brands more than anything else. The stadium isn't added benefit, but all the stadium really does for a sponsor. Unless you're putting your, your name on part of the building you're really just having a better place to, to, to host and, and reward either employees or, or, or new clients and, and new business.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So let's just pursue that for a second then. So you've, you've outsourced the sales bit to LTS eight, is that right? So there's, they're out there in the market selling the shirt. And that's Victoria Timpson's business, former man, United Exec. Is that that I'm right on that. Is that, is that right?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, so her primary focus uh, well LTSA and, and that team is primary focus is the front of shirt. We still have let's call it a sponsorship team and, and group internally that's focused on the collective, you know, potentially stadium naming rights, but then also building out our, our sponsorship portfolio. So those two, it's kind of like, being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. We have two different, two different groups out there so that we don't take one from spending so much time on the other.'cause we're also gonna be, you know, potentially in the market for the sleeve here soon as well. So there's a lot, a lot of opportunity, a lot of
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah, absolutely. So you've got, so their remit then rts, eight's remit is the shirt. And so your in-house team are not selling the shirt, they're selling the secondary sponsorship, the partnerships, the digital relationships, all of that stuff.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Exactly.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:But I will say that like from a, from a Tottenham perspective, there's myself and there's another individual on the team. We're, we're still a hundred percent focused on the the shirt, so we're kind of that. I guess that call it that partner with Altius, but the rest of the team, if you look, we've just hired Alex Scotch as a commercial director. He's kind of leading that day-to-day sponsorship group.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay, in terms of the three assets, then the stadium, the shirt and the sleeve, the front shirt and the sleeve,, so the obvious question, the the stadium, let's start there because one of your predecessor, Todd Klein, came in Miami Dolphins. This was gonna be the stadium sort of sale period, and it's still unnamed. Why is no one buying the Tottenham Stadium?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, so it's a good question. I think there's a bit of misconception out there as well because realistically, we've not actually focused on selling the naming rights for a number of years now. I'd say probably, you know, since Todd Klein left it's still a conversation that we're, we're willing to have. But we went through an exercise. We realized, one, the value of Tottenham Hasper. Stadium it being called that is incredibly valuable, especially when you have the likes of Beyonce, Kendrick Lamar, Travis Scott, et cetera, coming to the, to the stadium. piece is we've revisioned the way that we're monetizing the stadium, and this was with the launch of our collective. So we've talked a lot about this kind of in the, in the more, more recent months. It's actually taking a bit of a model that's more, more familiar and similar to myself.'Cause I actually worked at Hard Rock Stadium where we implemented the same thing as well as
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Stadium. So it's a bit more common in the us. We've obviously launched with our first partner with Sports Illustrated and then we will close three other positions. But if you look at the, the value that will drive through those four partners, would far exceed any naming rights partner, certainly in the uk. But would contend also for, for, for more than any, any other naming rights partner globally. At least across
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So that that,
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:we'll still take a name, but it's maybe not the, the primary responsibility or
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:okay, so Allianz is interesting. So Allianz came into, looked at the London Stadium, got CL close to that. They looked at Spurs and they ended up at Twickenham. One of the stories was price. It was just being, you know, that, that you are out pricing it. And this talks to just the weather around Daniel Levy was always about price. And I wonder if that's changed and whether or not you are trying to educate the sponsorship market that this is a post levy. Period because he came with a lot of baggage, good and bad. As a Spurs fan, I've, you know, there's a lot that I think he did well and a lot of people got onto him and it became a cliche, became a sort of lightning rod. Now you've got Vinai in there and you've got a different. Set on top at the top of the executive. Is there a job to be done about? We are different now. You are not dealing with Daniel Levy. You are dealing with a different group of people.'cause you're all relatively new to the, to the roles and the perception of Spurs in the commercial marketplace has to shift. What do you, is that a fair reading?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Possibly I would say one like you, I have a lot of respect for Daniel, and I think he's he's done a tremendous job for the football club especially commercially. And if you look over the course of time, I mean, there's I think his contributions have, are, are invaluable. you go back to, to your question specifically, I don't necessarily think that there needs to be a reset. Because if you look, you know, one, I've been here now almost four years, so three and a half years. So that commercial shift has already started to change. I think one of the things that was holding, I guess Tottenham back, or even the commercial team, which I was a part of when Todd was here and selling the naming rights was a couple things. One, the stadium was, would opened, went into COVID and then, you know, there was kind of this, this grand gesture, if you will, where. We were telling the market that we are gonna have concerts, we are gonna have the NFL, we are gonna have F1, we were gonna have all these things that had never existed before. Certainly across the uk, but also in Europe. And I think it was a lot of those, well, let's see if it actually happens, right? Let's see if you actually get a license to host 30 events per year. Right now what we're finding in the market is starting to become looking at not just a football venue, but. A global entertainment destination, right? And an entertainment venue that, that delivers audiences across a diverse level of, of demographics. And this is what has kind of changed the, the paradigm, right?'cause now I can comfortably go into a, a meeting around the naming rights and say, we're not just football. We have almost a full second season of events. Whereas two to three years ago, that value wasn't necessarily there. And it now is in fact we get, in the last six months, I've got more inquiries, maybe six to nine months more increase about stadium naming rights than we did in the two years prior. Has the price shifted? It certainly has, right? But the value I think has only increased because now we actually have evidence and proof that we can deliver events. And it's not just the football stadium.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:There's a sort of newness premium to stadiums. I always think stadium's interesting for that. There is that American, uk, European angle to it, and it's a, it is a much more mature market in the states as you, you know, and that the, there's the new stadium argument that it's, you know, people don't like, brands don't want to come into old stadiums and, and you've got the battle over the name and she's Alliant's Wickham's problem. We'll leave that.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Sure.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:But they also, there is a time, there's a, there's a window on newness in the stadium market, particularly in London. As new things appear on the market, it become, you know, Tottenham Stadium. And I'm there on Sunday and I'm looking forward to it hugely. Let's say it's the best stadium in the country. There will be a period where it won't be, so there is a window on those. Lets stadium naming rights. Do you, do you agree with that in terms of whether or not you are going to, if there isn't a sort of a big ticket, big check being written by someone, then if it's not happened so far, it won't happen.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:I don't necessarily agree because if you look, there's evidence again, if you, when we, you know, Todd and I both worked in Miami and we did, we did the Hard Rock deal. Together. was an 11th generation naming rights. Right. If you look at the new stadium that used to be Mercedes-Benz, or sorry, the existing stadium that used to be Mercedes-Benz, but now Caesar's in New Orleans, a second name. Right. So I do think that there's, it's much easier, I guess this is a better way to, to provide an answer. I'd rather have a first name on a stadium, maybe 6, 7, 8 years into it being built. Rather than having to try to sell a second name after 10 years, right. I think that is a bit more difficult because it starts from the beginning, it's known as X, Y, Z stadium, and then in 10 years you gotta now find that second generation. And the newness by that point has certainly worn off and everyone will still refer to it as whatever that previous name is. So I don't think that there's necessarily a window where it's not gonna happen. I think it's a matter of realistically, you gotta find the right partner. I know that we've said that a lot. But you, you truly do, right? I don't, I don't think anyone wants this to be, and I won't say a name to, to disparage any type of brands, but there are certain categories and brands that I think would make fans like yourself coming on Sunday be like, don't really want to go here to, to
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:To the, to the crypto stadium.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:I'm not gonna say that, but yeah, as an example. You know what I mean? So one person may, may objectively feel
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay, so, and the other bit I guess is the, so the shirt and stadium together that, you know, you've got the Etti Ad Emirates type deal. I wonder what the, what you look at from that point of view and see what the pros and cons of that are. Because now, and part of that is those are different and special relationships given the ownership of Man City or you know, in that case an Emirates at the time. There was, you know, that's, that's a longstanding relationship. But what do you think about that as a, as a framing for the stadium and the shirt?'cause you've got both coming to market at the same time.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, I actually think that it's one of those advantages that we have in the market, right? If you look at, I mean, there's, I think, 11 teams that are in the market for front of shirt today. Going into 27 28, there's gonna be, you know, potentially whatever partners that don't potentially find one, and there's gonna be a couple more clubs coming up. So it is one of the competitive advantages that we have is we can bundle those assets together and it actually tells a great story. It goes back to. You know, what I said initially is that the shirt is an, an identity anchor. You can argue the stadium is that second identity or anchor, and then you can build the systems around that to, to really amplify it. So it is a it is a strategy, strategy that we are considering and exploring. Uh.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:11. So again, let's, let's talk about that for minute. It's an interesting moment to have this How do you approach that challenge and what is that gonna do to price expectations?'cause you've also got the gambling question, which, and again, put me right, but some of the numbers that abandoned around, but they pay 30 to 40% over the market just to get on the shirt, the, the gambling brands. So what this is about the market, is there a sort of correction in the shirt market? And will expectations need to be sort of corrected in the same way?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, so I'm not sure I'd say it's a correction, but it certainly is a, a repricing moment. I don't necessarily view it as a value collapse, but it will make clubs. Change their approach and their strategy to partnerships. Right? So category diversification is gonna be significantly more important. You can't necessarily just go out and say, I'll just default to a betting brand. Clubs are gonna have to package their assets and their rights much smarter. And, and also from a digital performance perspective, those rights will continue to, to protect the value. I look at it more as a repricing moment. And that goes for the sleeve as well, right? So you may see some of the shirts go slightly down, but then the sleeves increase. But it's really just a a moment that every, every club is gonna have to be
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So the bedding brands can still be on the sleeve? Is
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:That's correct. Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay. So there'll be a sort of a drop on the front and the sleeve becomes more valuable if the gambling market is still focused on that. As you say to your point, it's not, doesn't feel like a collapse, but then I think it's, so let's talk about the sort of how big brands. Big global premium brands view football shirts today because I had this conversation with Nikki Duette and they've just done a, you know, the CEO of WSL and I think one of the interesting bits that is happening there is that you are seeing, you know, properly global Apple Mercedes-Benz last week. Barclays, they are lining alongside the WSL and. It's tempting to see you then look at the shirts on across the Premier League and there aren't many premium brands on those shirts. So what do you think is happening and in terms of the, what they see when they see a a football shirt these days, and whether they think it's a premium platform for their brand?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah. So I think one of the one of the benefits that you'll see coming out of this repricing moment, and this goes back to the category of diversification, is that those brands that you talk about will have an opportunity now for fair market value to be on the, the front of shirt for, you know. I guess let's call it up to the 19 Premier League Clubs, right a top tier club positioning the global scale and delivery capability. Still command premium demand. So we still are attractive because partners need multi-market growth, right? If you look, and going back to the success of a i a the last, you know, I'd say 11, 12 years, their share price has increased 193% since partnering with Tottenham, right? If you look at their new business value, it's tripled by over 300 million in that same span. So there are. call it opportunities and growth across the Premier League and including the front of shirt. It really just goes back to, I actually think you're, you know, similarly, what's, what's happening in WSL is actually gonna start happening in, in the Premier League.'cause you'll see these, these premium brands start to become on the front of shirt and bedding will start to fall off, which is, I think, what, what they intended and hoped to do.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:do you bundle the women's shirt into the men's shirt? Is that how you are selling it?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:We, we don't, that's not the intention. It possibly could happen, but women's are their own identity. It's, it's their own platform and growth platform, if you will. So our intention is to not bundle it together. Ironically, it's interesting'cause you'll have certain conversations where brains will certainly only be women interested in the women's. Then you have other brands that are interested in both. Right? But I think the most important thing is we're getting that question a lot more, right? It's it used to just be where there was an assumption or it was just an add-on, hey, it's like, can you add this asset in? Can I get another minute of LAD? It's certainly not anymore. It's a growth platform. And it's one that, that certainly takes intentional commercial planning as well.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And so do LT s have that brief as well, or are they just the men's front of ship?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:So they are the entire front of shirt, but ideally, you know, we, we
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:unbundle it. So technically they could be selling two assets. If, if you want to get granular.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And in terms of the relative values of those shirts, the men's and the women's shirt, what do you see there in terms of if it is unbundled? What's the women's shirt worth, I guess is the question?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:I can't get into specifics, but I think every club is gonna change,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:I think the, the principles. Are gonna be the same, right. I think what we can do, what we'll have is a little bit more access with the women's team in terms of the players are usually a bit more interested you know, or, or able and, and willing to participate. I think the storytelling and the, the narrative that you can build around the women's is a bit more compelling. So, so I wouldn't say the, the value is certainly there. It's slightly different. I mean, obviously if you look at the EPL and the. And the Champions League that audience directly is almost kind of having like a Super Bowl every 10 days, right? So from the WSL, it's gonna be a slightly different proposition from that perspective. But the value that we talked about in terms of access, content distribution integrating creators still exists.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So the value of the Spurs uh, is obviously directly linked to the broadcast footprint of the Premier League and this season, the Champions League. And you are selling that as a global property. You are trying to sort of position it in that way. The, the, yeah. So what, and at the beginning you said it's a performance marketing asset rather than a brand asset that feels like you're sell The value is in actually a, a, a global awareness. Platform.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, it's a bit of both, as I said. So it's basically a performance channel, right? So. It's not only exposure, but the exposure and the awareness is critically important, but it's also the measurable outcomes, right? So the content you create around it, the distribution and the conversion all matter, right? And the shirt, I mean, it offers so many different opportunities because. Aside from wearing it every week, you know, when they play matches, the players, every key moment that happens, even a new signing whether you score a goal celebration, they, they travel the farthest. I think if you look at the Totten in front of shirt, we have 16 million social users daily are seeing the brand on the front of the shirt. Right. And that's, that's globally. So that becomes this. Kind of modern media commerce platform, if you will.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Do you think there's a, there's a difference between seeing a brand. On television compared to seeing it on TikTok? I don't, I mean, I genuine, I don't know the, obviously, dunno the answer, but I just in terms of the, there's a sort of perception of premiumness. I dunno what, what do you think? And, and the, just the longevity of the relationship. You are, you are sitting there with the brand, the classic sort of, we are beating the ad breaks by being in the content as a television product. Whereas on TikTok it flies by, I'm seeing highlights, clips and off I go. And I'm just wondering if that's an apples. Pair type comparison.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, I mean you, you'd have to look at the data and science to know the answer for. You know, to, to be kind of, correct. kind of view is I probably would lean more towards the social aspect being more valuable because it's short form content. You're glued into it, you can rewatch it over and over again in a broadcast. It's moving so quickly. So there's very few oftentimes where you're sitting there, you know, kind of focused, honing in on, on the shirt. But all those moments that you are are typically those same exact moments. Go on to social, right. And now, I mean, if you look at TikTok we have the, from a Tottenham perspective, have the biggest TikTok kind of following across all the Premier League clubs. But even social media in general it is just scaling and growing at such a high level. And then when you start in integrating creators into it, value certainly would circumvent the, the, the broadcast. But I suppose it also depends on your audience, right? So. Maybe someone who is watching the game on television or going to the match, they'll probably get more value from, from watching it in a broadcaster live. Whereas if you're a Gen Z or someone in that kind of demographic, you're gonna get more value on on social media and, and those platforms.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And do you know who Spurs fans are? I mean, is has again, the classic question of over the years, football has passed its audience on to third parties and YouTube you know, TikTok uh, this year's version of what happened previously with broadcasters. Do you, do you know who a Spurs fan is on a granular level?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:I'd say we're, we're getting closer and learning more every day. So one of the, the biggest shifts that we've changed commercially, and we talked about it, I've kind of titled it as digital application, but what it really means is that we have an ad tech platform that is integrated into our ecosystem, if you will, that allows us to monetize first party data. So what we effectively can do is if you're a brand into the business or comes into to Tottenham and says, this is the specific target market that I want. will be able to identify one who's within our first party data. So, you know, within our kind of owned and operated channels, can use AI to create lookalike audiences in your specific market and be able to target those people. So we generally know who is first fan is, but they also vary by market, right? So you have to take that into consideration. There's, there's a global holistic view, but there's also, if you, if you. Just look at that and say, Hey, the fan in the UK is a fan. Globally, you, you're gonna be wrong. So you have to be able to, to geographically identify that. But that's actually our biggest selling point, is we can actually go to a brand and say, who do you wanna speak to? What message do you want to deliver to them? When do you want to do it, and where do you want to do it? Right?
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And that's still an adverti,
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:in a
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:that's still a sort of advertising demographic. answer, isn't it? It's not a platform answer. You don't know me like Amazon and YouTube know me. You don't. You haven't got that granular data.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:No, not, not yet, but we will, I'd say at the moment we're going through a digital transformation, so I think we're probably about four or five months away from it. So that was one of the, the key things around the Salesforce relationship. Was that we'd now be able to have a a 360 degree view of not only our Spurs fans, but effectively everyone that comes to the stadium. So you'll see like the way that Tottenham communicates to you today is gonna be much different in six months. And then even from a year from now, it's gonna be even more
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:that. So we will know where you're going, what you like what shirts you're buying, where you're buying it from, what other events you go to. We will get to that, that level of of detail. But we. You know, it'd be unfair to say that we, we know that, that
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So just talk to me about that then. So set the Salesforce relationship. When did that start?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:so it started not this past summer, but two summers ago was the initial partnership that we had. We were the first football club and Premier league club that they've ever done a partnership with. both, both club and stadium. But effectively the, let's put the marketing stuff aside from it. The real story is that one across all of our platforms internally, from a technology standpoint, we'll be moving to, for the most part, into Salesforce in terms of that software, software aspect of it. But really the primary goal is for us to have that 360 degree view of fans. So to put it in a simple term, you're a Bears fan that lives in Chicago, you travel here for the NFL game, you don't know that there's a, you know that what Tottenham is necessarily because you've, I don't know, you know you're not been exposed to Premier League football. can now start to make that connection and then as soon as they get back to Chicago, we'll be able to email them and say. Hey, you know, welcome to Tottenham Hots Spur. Here's a x, y, Z gift for, for joining the stadium. And also every, every week within 20 miles from your house is the Chicago Supporters Club for Tottenham Hots Spur. And we'd love to connect you guys. And now you're starting to create this community, right? So that's the type of information and kind of relationship that we'll have with our fan. But you could see how powerful that is.'cause now we can leverage all these other events. To, to drive the brand and and increase fan
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So is that a, it is interesting. So is that a, because obviously on podcasts like this, you get a lot of people coming on saying promising to deliver exactly what you've just articulated that you know, we have got a black box now propelled by AI that is going to make a football club's relationship with its fan. More analogous with that of a platform and a user. So one, it's more valuable. So the, the future enterprise value of Tottenham Hot Spur Football Club is linked directly to being able to unlock. That relationship on a very much more sophisticated way than has normally been traded thus far. You're very familiar with this argument. I know. So is that, is the sales force your bet? So you, you know, again, it's the question for every person in your position is, well, how do we do that? We can all see that man, United Spurs valuation is a fraction of Pinterest and TikTok, and it's to do with. That question of knowledge of fans in the UK but also globally. So Salesforce is your bet on that they, that's the promise that they're making.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, so I would say Salesforce is one of'em. Obviously we have a lot of other partners in h HP and HPE that do a lot to power the stadium. And we'll be announcing another partnership as well, as well, that will sit alongside Salesforce. So. I would say, I don't want to go out and say it's only gonna be Salesforce, but that's, that's kind of the end goal. What the, the situation I described to you is where we want to go. And obviously we're, we're choosing all the best in class partners to help us along that journey. it is our bet to say that we're the, the bundle of technology, and this was, this is probably a, a better conversation for, for Rob Pickering, who's our CTO, but that is our our bet is to get to where we need to get to, which is, is the situation I
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:It is sort of interesting'cause you then get to the AI question and one of, you know, that's propelled this bit of the conversation and one of the questions is, Is the data too valuable to give away to or to, to bundle into a sponsorship relationship? So the 10, you know, from your incentivized to, to turn Salesforce into a sponsor, into a partner. And that's what has always happened in football, in sport sports, marketing. The question now is, okay, do you do that? Because actually. You are just giving it away again. And one of the questions for everyone in the marketplace is what do you do with that AI data?'cause it's incredibly valuable and we don't quite know the, the extent of it. So it's a sort of future proofing question, but that all of the incentives are short term to bundle it into a sponsorship relationship.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:I, I think yes and no. So it goes back to that, that first party data, right? I think, you know, years ago. to give you a slightly different example, You can go to the Spotify, Barcelona deal, but a lot of that deal was based on the fact that Spotify believed that Barcelona had, let's call it 1 billion
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:right? Which may be true that there's 1 billion people interested in the football club. But when you start to bring that down and you start to say, okay, well how many people are actually in your CRM? The number is gonna be significantly lower, then you bring it further down of how many of those people can actually be contactable. Right. So how many times can I actually communicate with them? Then even further is like how many of those can be contactable by a partner? Right? So that number goes even, even smaller.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:goes to less than a million, doesn't it? I mean, that, that, that, that case study become the definitive case study, isn't it? In the industry.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:So that's why what we've done by this ad tech platform is effectively we're not giving away our, our first party data, but we're allowing partners. To go directly to them through the ad tech platform, right? So we're not sharing the data, but they're able to communicate them if they can convince them to join their platform and or their subscription or their business, that's great. So that is a big difference because today's world, if I go and I say, Hey, I'm gonna do a website solace email to you and a website takeover, and you actually look at the conversion across that, it's gonna be very, very low, right? Even if you have a, a high open rate on emails. Because that big number is small, whereas what we call like, we can address the messy middle, able to almost guarantee a partner, and we've done this with a few of our partners that I can't obviously guarantee conversions, but I can guarantee that we'll deliver x, y, Z people to your platform that not only fit within your demographic and your target market, but that also in the, in the geographies and the regions that you want to target. I know we can deliver them, but obviously you have to have an offer and a business that makes them convert, right? So that's, that's the big kind of secret sauce, if you will, is historically partners or rights holders are not able to do that. We can guarantee it. And if you look at, you know, express VPN, a great example. They've never done a deal in football or even in sponsorship or sports. We have a, a great partnership with them, but a majority of it is, is really tied around performance marketing and media spend. Right. And there's a basically a value driver. We can drive them directly to, to their And
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:and that's your reference to performance marketing of the share earlier. That's, that's the sort of argument behind that point. Yeah.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:It's not just a badge, it's a performance channel,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah. Okay. There's a, I mean, I see his picture behind you, Sonny. My favorite player humming song. So the career question, and because again, when you look at Spurs in the international market, he was one, a fantastic player, lovely bloke, but also brought a huge audience from. Career, I've seen it compared to others in terms of just, you've got this question that runs through football, not just about Spurs, but he's a good example of this in terms of the star audience versus the team audience and how that plays. And it's probably different globally than it is globally, and I think it's disproportionately more important when you talk about a global market. So talk to me about that and the sort of what you might call the post Sony period in Spurs sort of global audience.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, so I think the, to start, I mean, one, as you've already alluded to, Sonny was a, a fantastic steward and a, and a player for the football club. I think one of the, the benefits or things that we did, and was sacrifice because we weren't able to go any other markets. But if you look at the last 10 years. Toten has visited the APAC region, if you will, for preseason eight of the last 10 years, right? We have 11 partners in apac, which is more than the top six. In three of Spurs. Fans are from the region. Over 50% of our followers social media come from that region, and we also have over 150 supporters clubs from that reason. So the foundation, while Sonny certainly contributed to it and built it in a very big way. We have a pretty good foundation that honestly, the big test for us is how many of those people can we retain and, and hope to continue that relationship with, right? The reality is that if you look at the, fan base in Korea, so far and above everybody else, right? Across our overall APAC kind of fan base. Korea represents such a small number, so I'd be lying to you if I said we didn't feel an impact.'cause we do across retail match day sponsorship. It's, it's very real because Sonny is is one of those kind of generational talents personalities and, and, and players. However, we have other kind of, let's call it strategies in place to try to maintain that, that Asian fan base. And we also know that we need to shift. Our focus slightly and start to to the us and visit the United States and, and do a bit more in that, in that region as well.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Do you think there's a, because it's, again, one of the sort of unknowns really is the, it's an easy argument. It's the sort of Rene Martin. PSG argument, you know, that that gets banded around and the Ronaldo to whatever inter, and do we know yet the stickiness in terms of the residual affection for Spurs of a Korean fan as he, you know, Sonny goes to MLS, but if you generalize that. I'm always suspicious of easy arguments and of course this power of the star is very profound. And you know, all of the research we talked ourselves into saying star over club brand and I, there's a bit of me that wonders about that and actually likes to just poke at that for a minute. But what do we know about that Really?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:We, I don't think we really know, right? So if you just look, and it's interesting because we've, we're actually, you know, being transparent in, in the midst of this debate now as to how heavy do we go into Korea. if you look at one data set, you could say we're actually over indexing a lot of areas in Korea. Still. We've shifted our strategy more creator content. We've gone a little bit more into the lifestyle piece of it because we truly understand the culture, so using that to our advantage. But then also you can look at other data sets and say, our fan base not necessarily hasn't drawn off a cliff, but we're, we're selling less shirts in Korea. Right? So it's a bit. It's a bit of like, understanding what that true value is. And I don't think at this stage that we know, obviously Sunny's only been gone
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:you know, eight months or so. But I don't think we really know the answer because I could paint three different pictures for you on both sides and you, you'd be convinced on either end. So I think what really comes out is. a year, you'll be able to look back, look at the previous year across all the same metrics and say, how much of this fan base did we actually lose? Or did we actually, you know, maintain
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:It's difficult'cause you get into a sort of story versus data conversation, don't you? And there's a, I mean, we've all met, I meet, you meet a lot of Liverpool fans of a certain age, a lot of Man United fans or a lot of you know, Everton fans and they're tied to a particular time in their lives and. I wonder how, whether, you know, again, that's the sort of strength of the relationship and the, and there's a local, global aspect to it as well. A lot of, a lot of Liverpool fans who fell in love with Kelly Dug or John Barnes. Or Michael Owen, but they are defined as Liverpool fans, so they, you know, it's sort of, it doesn't feel like a complete. Picture that and it is, I always, when you listen to people research trends, people talk about Gen Z and Jen Alpha's behavior. I always wonder a bit in terms of,'cause you just don't know what the future's gonna be, do you?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, you don't. I mean, I think we. We're still trying to figure it out and it's hard to even look at other sports as a, as a basis because NFL is gonna be a team league. The NBA is a player league, you know, so then if you go to there, if you go into, you know, curricular rugby, it's certainly rugby's in my opinion, probably a bit more of a team league. So it's a bit challenging to know where, where, where we go and what the answer is. But I actually think the. The, the platform and the system that you build around a club or a rights holder is gonna be equally as important. If you look at F1, you know, right now it seems like they, they can't miss, but they literally have all these little tent poles and content tent poles around them from Lego to Disney, right? So they're, they're bringing in so many other different let's call it genres and, and interests that still are tied back to F1. And I don't know that people necessarily still have a team, but there's a lot of F1 fans, you know, even more so F1 fans than, let's call it someone who, who you know particularly will relate to Red Bull or Mercedes.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I was surprised. I went to a, a do. In London last year, and it was on the same day as the McLaren sort of car reveal, livery reveal in Trafalgar Square. And I thought people were F1 fans. I, I thought, yeah, okay. I've been to Monzo and I've seen Ferrari fans and they're, you know, they're proper fans, but I never really thought McLaren had that same sort of pull, but yes, they do. And it's just because I'm not a F1 fan, but you sort of notice. Fandom and I think club fandom is the really hard bit. It's the real asset that football clubs have over,
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:you know, if you are starting a hundred cricket franchise or a, you know, a, a team in another sport, if you're trying to sell the NFL London franchise or an NBA Europe franchise, it's really hard labor to turn those big eventers into proper fans, as we would recognize'em in as a Premier League fan. Do you agree with that?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:I do. Yeah. And I, I think it's one of the challenges if you look at the NFL. The NFL and the UK is massive, right? But now you're starting to see these teams make a conscious effort of repeating or coming back. They have these international marketing rights or hiring people in this, in this area, but it's very difficult to get them to all gravitate towards one team, right? Still even this, this, this past summer, if you come to an NFL game at the stadium, see 10 to 15 different jerseys, if not more. So I think you're exactly right that if you were starting a new franchise today, be very hard unless you, you, you focused it very, very heavily in terms of the community and the geographical location, right? So if you put an NBA team in London and you only have one, probably do pretty well because now everyone who is on the fence or doesn't have an NBA team is naturally gonna start going towards that team because it's London's team. I think the NFL would be similar. But when you start putting two, three teams, you're gonna do exactly what football does, where you start to create these pockets of people that that support it.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I'm interested'cause your background, you know, the NFL background that you've got. When I look at the NFL from the other way, you know, it's a sort of, it's interesting when Americans talk about the Premier League, there's a sort of gap in their knowledge or understanding or the granular stuff. And it's the same with me. I look, I understand the NFL as a sort of business idea. But I, I'm not, I don't feel it in the same way. What the London games from an, from a Miami perspective, what was, did you, did you notice anything? I'm just trying to identify.'cause when you look at the, the media rights for the NFL, I think it's 3% is overseas, so that they, they must look at that and that must irritate them. They, they want that number to be bigger. And this is all about, you know, developing a global fan and we're all gonna converge on the global fan. Which again, is a question we don't quite know the answer to, but what, what was the Miami impact? What did you see when you were sitting over there? When, when the NFL comes to London?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, so I think it, it depends on, on how you approach it, and back then it was a very different proposition than it is now. It's much more sophisticated and advanced. I think we were one of the, the first teams, as an example, when I was at the Dolphins and we came to London, we played at Wembley. And then it was the, the newness and the freshness just is what attracted people. You're now the sophistication and understanding of the sport across UK fans are a much higher level, right? I mean, even just walking into the stadium today, two, three an Australian an English person, and someone that is, is from Switzerland. talked about the first game that that was played last night between the Patriots and the Broncos, right? I don't think anyone stayed up for the later game. but all made comments about it. Maybe it's because I'm American in the NFL, but they all watched it, right? They don't understand some bits, but there's that natural curiosity to lean itself towards it. So I think it's, it's just getting bigger and you will see more people watch it. I think one of the challenges that you have, unless you buy D Zone like myself, and you have the NFL game pass. If you're watching on Sky Sports, you only get maybe two games a year, you know, I mean, two games a week rather. Sorry. So I think the, the exposure to the games is a bit smaller, whereas if you look at the Premier League, and again, going back to to Manchester City, I first joined the football club in 2011. Very few games were, were shown in the US right? You had to go to some, I lived in New York City for a while. Just before that move you had to go to some pub at four 30 in the morning, usually enter through the back door and you know, some group of fans was watching a a game that was
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Whereas now in the US I can watch more Premier League matches than I can in the uk. I think that is one of the advantages that the Premier League has over the NFL at this moment. But you'll see that shift starting to change, right? Because on the flip side of that, the Premier League has not played a regular season game in the us, the US, but the NFL has. So I think there's a, a bit of a push and pull on both sides, but will be interesting to see how, if you ever compared that growth, to know which one is growing quicker. My guess is probably primarily it's growing quicker in the
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's sort of that what it looks like at that end. And there's a product as entertainment type. Thing where, where I look at channel five's, NFL coverage and it's a sort of game show with some foot, they're almost like afraid to show the sport because what they're trying to do is create a sort of entertainment pro offering, which is fine. There's a space for that. But actually I sometimes think if I was interested in the NFL, it would really irritate me, but, and then does that matter? And you get that friction between I'm a real fan, but all you are, you are aiming at. Someone who's just you know, it could be love island or it could be this, it just, the sport has been diminished, and that's the tussle that we're earning at the moment, isn't it? In terms of the lack of co, there's sometimes a lack of confidence in the core product. I think when the marketing industry gets hold of something and puts it through a broadcast sort of lens.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, I'm laughing because yesterday I had it on Sky Sports and then every time that they went to a commercial break or there was like this moment, they'd switch to the commentators and I, I just. Found it to be just a bit kind of frustrating and kind of ruining the flow of the match or the game, if you will. So I actually moved to A VPN on my iPad and changed the channel, so I can watch that. So I do agree with you that if you are someone who understands and is a fan of the sport, they are a bit bit shy of kind of pushing that product as as forward as you, as you would, you know, I can watch Match of the Day and, and all the different programs on Sky around football all day long. But that's because I understand football and it's authentic.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah. Okay. Conscious of your time, you've got a, a board meeting this afternoon, don't you? I think I've, I will, yeah. So what's the, there's a, there's a final question, which is it's to do, what's the link between on field performance and, and the commercial performance? It's not a trick question, but just gimme a sense'cause there's a lag, isn't there? There's a time lag and obviously at the moment Spurs are in champion. They've got champions league football, and the league is a, you know, a horror show. So you've got this balance here, but what do you see as the, as the link?
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah, so I mean, clearly as a football club, everything that we do ex, especially on the business
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:and, and more than anything else commercially, is to drive as much revenue as possible so we can reinvest in the team and be as successful as possible. Right now. The challenge, especially where I sit, is I can't control what happens on the pitch, right? And I can't control the performance or the results. So I try to build value around what we control. So that is the audience which we spend a lot of time talking about still trying to make and give access to, for, for brands to communicate and, and kind of, do activations with our players. Content distribution, year round engagement. So it's. It's always more difficult during the, the bad times. It's always a bit more fun during the good times, you know, but you can't really let yourself get too high or too low and you can't be emotional about it. You just have to build value around what you control.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:So it is, that's probably the best way to put it. You know, there's being as, as honest as as
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah. Yeah. And it's an impossible question for you to answer, so it's a, you know, it's a, well, I just thought I'd throw it in just to see what your response would be. Right. Listen, thank you very much for your time. Really appreciate it. And
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:what's your, what's the bet on Sunday? I'm going to nil Tottenham, we're, we are their bogey team, man, city.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:yeah, I think it'll
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Okay. I'll keep you on that one. Brilliant. Thank you very much, Ryan, for your.
Ryan Norys, Tottenham Hotspur FC:Awesome. Thank you.