UP555 The Lord's Question: What Does The MCC Brand Stand For?

The £295million sale of London Spirit franchise was one of the big sports business stories of the last year. Some of Silicon Valley's most successful and famous leaders buying 49% of The Hundred's Lord's based franchise, in partnership with The MCC, one of the most storied names in cricket.

So what is the MCC today, and how is that changing in one of the most important years in the great ground's history? 

In this episode, Richard Gillis is joined by Katie Maier, Chief Marketing Officer at MCC, and Ellie Roach, Senior Consultant at InCrowd, to ask that question directly. 

The conversation moves through the central tension of the brand — a 200-year-old members' club, still 97% male, now sitting alongside a 51% stake in The Hundred, a property built on the language of inclusion. 

Who is an MCC digital follower? What does the MCC look like from India? What's the thesis behind the Silicon Valley investment

We go in to, the data-led case for not chasing vanity metrics in overseas markets, and a content strategy built on six pillars that runs well beyond the cricket itself. 

The episode lands just weeks before the most significant summer in the ground's history for women's cricket: the first ever women's Test at Lord's, alongside the Women's T20 World Cup final, fifty years after the first women's international was played there.

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Transcript

Speaker 0:00

Hello there, Richard Gillis here and welcome to Unofficial Partner, the Sports Business Conversation. The sale of London's spirit was one of the big stories of last year, some of Silicon Valley's most successful and famous leaders investing into cricket into the hundred, into London and into Lords. The most famous in historic cricket ground in the world. Background is owned by the MCC, which is an organisation I thought I knew, but it feels like it's changing. You can argue this is one of the most important or significant years in the great grounds history. In this episode, I talk to Katie Mayer, chief marketing Officer at the MCC and Ellie Roach, senior consultant to In-Crowd. The conversation moves through the central tension of the brand. A 200 year old members club, still 97% male sitting alongside a 51% stake in the hundreds London spirit, a franchise built explicitly on the language of inclusion. Katie and Ellie talked through the Silicon Valley money behind the consortium, the data led case for not chasing vanity metrics in overseas markets such as India, and a content strategy built on six pillars that runs well beyond the cricket itself. So join me for a provocative and insightful conversation that goes far beyond cricket. Hope you enjoy it.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:24

So Katie, hello to you.

Katie Maier, MCC 1:26

Hello

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:26

Where are you now? What, what's-- Where do we find you?

Katie Maier, MCC 1:28

I am at Lord's Cricket Ground on the third floor of the ECB building on a very wet day

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:33

Excellent. And Ellie, where, whereabouts are you?

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 1:35

I'm in Paddington, so just down the road from Lord's on an equally wet day, in our InCrowd offices, yeah, based on the Edgware Road

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:43

So welcome to both of you. This is a conversation I've been thinking about a lot 'cause I'm really interested in, in it for its own sake. I w- I grew up in sort of Northwest London. Lord's was my... I love Lord's, so I'm gonna get that out straight away. So I'm coming from that position, and we used to go as a kid and, you know, go to Lord's, watch cricket, and it is one of my favorite places to watch sport or just be around. I'm really interested in this as a topic and where we go with this as a subject matter. But before we get into it, can we just explain what the day jobs are? So Katie, what's the job? What do you do all day? Just give us a bit of context.

Katie Maier, MCC 2:25

Of course. I don't sit around watching cricket all day, just to caveat before we get into it.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 2:29

I would in your position

Katie Maier, MCC 2:31

It's your distraction where you get to enjoy it. yeah, so the title Chief Marketing Officer here, basically that means I look after the marketing strategy, which includes our brand, our communications campaigns, and all of our digital activations. we've got a few... That is at the MCC, and so by default MCC owns Lord's, so Lord's Cricket Ground is a big part of that. And we also now have the majority shareholder of, London Spirit franchise, so another one in our wheelhouse

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 2:58

Yes. Okay, we're gonna come back to all of that in a minute. Ellie, same question. What do you do all day?

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 3:03

I am a senior consultant at InCrowd, so I work with a of different rights holders, to support them with their digital and data strategy. that can be across marketing, but also from a technology perspective, and what type of activities, might need to take place in order to meach, reach growth objectives. largely revenue, but obviously coming with that, fan growth and audience growth, to drive that

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 3:23

And are we allowed to say other than the MCC who the clients are? Just give us a smattering of names. Is that allow- is that allowed? Are we allowed to say that? Or,

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 3:31

Yeah, absolutely.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 3:32

you, do you have to be b- you have to stay behind the

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 3:34

No, absolutely. so work with a number of different sort of sports rights holders, so cricket obviously, being one of those. So in addition to MCC and, and Lords, we work with, SA20 Cricket and the ECB, and then across rugby, so the likes of, of Prem Rugby, Saracens, EPCR, Ascot Racecourse, and then football, the likes of Crystal Palace, and, Arsenal, Watford, et cetera. So, a, a large variety of, sports, both in the UK and, and around the world, and also at different journeys, and stages of that journey of their, their growth strategy. So really interesting, exciting, and, never a dull day, which is most important.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 4:09

True. That is very true. Right. Thank you. And so katie, I am someone who should know what the MCC is, and I thought I used to know what the MCC is and, and I've got an idea about it. But sometimes I wonder, and I saw, like the Hundred relationship, is one area that has shifted. But I look at it and I wonder, I associate it with, and you, you will know exactly where I go. I've got all sorts of associations with Lords. I've said I love Lords, but I never felt part of a club there. I never felt part of the group. I never had a red and yellow tie and all of that backstory to the MCC. So what's the job? So you're head, you're chief marketing officer. How, who is the audience for the MCC today, and what does it do really fundamentally?

Katie Maier, MCC 4:57

Yeah. So the audience is incredibly varied. I think it's worth framing that cricket has a really varied product nowadays, which has set the audiences as being very varied. So we go from, you know, the long-standing Test match format and the County Championship right through to The Hundred, which you just referenced. So by its very structure, we're actually in a really strong position to have a variety of different audiences, and we can cater for them with different types of cricket. our members are obviously first and foremost fundamental to us. we've got over twenty thousand members of the club, and they, are deeply invested in the club and its future. it's obviously a club based on huge heritage and has seen some iconic moments, particularly at Lord's over the years. So we always have our members in our minds, front of mind with a number of things we do, but obviously Lord's can engage many more people beyond our members alone. We've got capacity of over thirty thousand here now, and we host multiple international matches a year. So we are always thinking as well about other audiences as much as we cater for our members. And those other audiences have clearly, diversified and expanded over the last few years with those, diversification of products themselves. so we're thinking of young and old, we're thinking of men and women, we're thinking of people from all walks of life who are possibly just having their first foray into the world of cricket and wanting to step inside the gates of Lord's for the first time, through to those who might understand the game a little bit better and want to come on a more frequent basis. And of course, some of those might then decide to apply to become a member for the long term.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 6:22

Okay. So explain then the-- Ellie, this is a question for you. In terms of the, the, my tradi- my view of an MCC member is a visual view, and it's the Lord's Pavilion at a Lord's test match. Compare that lens to what you see. So you're looking at the digital world and the digital audience. What's the difference? Just take us inside that, 'cause I think difference between those two things is I think where part of this conversation's gonna take place.

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 6:52

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, there are those traditional audiences that you might visualize in your minds that exist across there for sure. but we're thinking digitally, this isn't just I engage digitally because I don't attend, but when I am attending, I want a digital experience when I'm there as well to make my ex- my physical, interaction or my event, more convenient, for me and, and more enjoyable. We start to see a lot of that diversification that Katie just mentioned. I think moving away from the traditional male audience, a lot of major sports events as well, and actually considering, the sort of family aspect coming through at, at all different types of events. Obviously, The Hundred being a, a big sort of family, But what we've, we've seen in, in doing some of the audience insights projects that we work on is, you know, family isn't a segment. throughout all of the different audience segments and groups that might attend, with friends and family is a really important motivator. So just because, you know, the event might be framed at families doesn't mean that we need to, I guess, make it more childish or, more appropriate for children, the event. We can still keep the core of that, but we just need to be mindful that, you know, there might need to be, different activations that happen, different food and drink offerings that are more appropriate for those people who are coming. you know, how the, the toilets are set up, for example. There's lots of different things that come with that and moving to a, a more diverse audience set, which might not be the traditional, typically largely male audience that, that might have attended in the past.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 8:16

So again, y- the, membership is male. There's a male/female question, and we've got a moment coming up, a vote coming up. But y- in 1998, the membership opened up to women. But how many are, are there now of that... So how many members are there and how many are women, I guess is one question?

Katie Maier, MCC 8:32

so the ratio is still extremely heavily weighted towards males in terms of those who are actually full members of the club. It's 97% males to 3% females. what has obviously been the, the cause of that is that when the vote came through in the late 90s, there was already at that point a long waiting list, which has only got longer in recent years because of the demand on Lords, and there is a limit to how much we can extend that capacity of membership. So it's taken a long time for those members, those female applicants to make it into full membership. what's pleasing is in recent years when we've done a lot of work to try and encourage more applications by female members is we're seeing that coming through now. So although there's 3% women members currently, we're seeing 20% of applications now coming from females, and the aspiration is to try and get it more to that level in terms of full membership. clearly the process of doing so, is complex and it needs to be done in a way that our existing members feel comfortable with and are consulted by, and that's a process we're going through at the moment. But I think there's no question that the general aspiration of the club and the members is to see more parity over the coming years. It's just how you can best achieve that in fairness for all.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 9:34

Do you think that... So when you lay that into something like The Hundred. So The Hundred is a, is, is, it's been created and it's, a festival of inclusion and inclusivity. It's a different type of cricket than the MCC that I, in my head, I go to the MCC and that's men, it's white men in, red and yellow ties watching men play cricket at Lord's. So that's, that's one version of the world. The Hundred is talking a, a completely different version of the world. I'm try- And I was thinking you have got a really hard job trying to work out that juxtaposition works through because... And I wonder, there's a, there's a bit of me that wonders actually whether or not there's a marketing route which is not about diversity and inclusion. It is actually drilling down on owning the privilege of the MCC with all its connotations and acting more like a global luxury brand, very exclusive, very expensive, and you can't come in unless you can pay the ticket. You can see where I'm getting at, and you'll have had these conversations, but I'm just fascinated by the, just the, there's not many places in sport that are trying to bridge a gap quite as wide as the MCC and The Hundred

Katie Maier, MCC 10:50

Yeah, and I think I've talked about it sometimes just in meetings as a bit of a tightrope at points because you are trying to get the balance right. But I think if you go back to the basis of why a marketeer does their job is we're here to serve our customers and, and in this respect, our fans, and our fans are a broad church. They are members, but they're also non-members, and that non-membership is broad in its own right. And I think it's also worth pointing out that our members aren't just one archetype of one typical person. They, they have varied views and varied needs as well. I think it, it links actually to sort of a broader perception around women's sport, and we see this in women's cricket, that just because you're a woman doesn't mean you watch women's sport or a man watches men's sport. And the same could be said about who comes to our Test matches and The Hundred. and if you look at the capacity, we've got a Test match this week. We've got, you know, over 30,000 in the ground. The members will make up a m- a minority of that attendance. There'll be a lot of people in the ground who come here who are non-members. So we are able to serve them. I think the key is how we segment, how we talk to the audiences in the right way for them, in the right channels, at the right moment to serve that customer, serve that fan what they need. Clearly, what we might provide as a customer offering in the Pavilion might differ from what we might provide on the Nursery Ground, where we might have more families doing spontaneous cricket and wanting to grab different types of food and drink and activities. And that kind of follows through The Hundred as well. The Hundred's interesting 'cause there is a perception that traditional cricket fans, including, you know, perception of an MCC member, aren't engaged in The Hundred. But actually, we sell out the Pavilion instantly for the final and often for the other matches as well. And this year, we're already seeing double the sales from members for The Hundred. So there is an appetite from them and especially from some of our members to bring their children and grandchildren. In fact, we, we just recently launched our London Spirit kit, and we featured a member in his 80s called Ted with his, I think it's son, I can't remember if it's son or daughter, apologies to Ted, and grandchildren and a great-grandchild all in that kit launch shoot. And he openly says what a brilliant thing it's been for encouraging his, his family to come to cricket

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 12:46

London Spirit then. Let's just pick that, 'cause again, what I didn't appreciate really is the, number of brands you've got under the umbrella of the MCC. So immediately you've got Lord's, but you've got London Spirit, and then you've also got some other sort of what you might call sub-brands within there that, um, again, are telling different stories. So again, it's quite an interesting just to sort of get below the cliches, if you like, and the, preconceptions. When you look at London Spirit, so what does MCC own as part of that? They've got 51%, right?

Katie Maier, MCC 13:19

51%, so we got the majority share and 49% owned by our partners, the consortium

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 13:25

And who is, who are the prominent people in the partnership on the 49% side?

Katie Maier, MCC 13:30

It's, it's quite a lineup. I mean, I wouldn't wanna name all 24, I think it is, of them, but they are, very impressive individuals, who've all come into it, I, I think I can say with confidence because they've got a massive passion for the game. so they've come in because they love the game, but they see it also clearly as a commercial investment. you've got the CEO of Palo Alto in there. You've got, the CEO of Google, CEO of Microsoft. there are some big names in the lineup. CEO of Times India. The list is long. So these are individuals who know business inside out. they want this to be a commercial success, no question. That's really important to them, and I think they see the huge potential in it, hence the money they put, put into it in the last year. But they're also here to enjoy that unique experience that is Lord's

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 14:12

And what was the final number? I can't re- it, it was around about 300 million, wasn't it, in terms

Katie Maier, MCC 14:17

Yeah, it was 295 million. So of course the 49% share of that I think was 143

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 14:22

Okay, so you've got some of the most famous and successful people in Silicon Valley investing in Lord's 100 franchise, or, you know, in 49% of it. what have they bought, do you think? And where does the MCC's brand play in their view, the view from Silicon Valley of London and cricket and Lord's?

Katie Maier, MCC 14:45

Yeah, you've touched on really what they've bought into, and I think if they were being interviewed now, I, I hope this reflects their view or certainly Nikesh who's sort of the main contact we have within the consortium, which is Lord's in its own right is a huge prize. There's no question that Lord's was the major appeal, but so was London. So those two huge assets are what makes London Spirit so unique. The fact that we are in arguably the greatest capital city in the world, certainly one of them, but that we also are, the guardians of Lord's, the home of cricket. You put those two elements together with a progressive mindset and commercial investment, and they are going to multiply potentially in value and the reach that they can generate. Now, obviously, historically, The Hundred over the last five years has been focused on domestic UK audience. It's been focused on getting, you know, people through the doors to watch the games and sell out stadiums for the first few years. What will be interesting, I think, is with this global commercial mindset and, and, you know, the nows that's being invested into The Hundred, not just in this team, but in other seven, seven other teams, is how this can then potentially go beyond our shores and, and go into a global, global market

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 15:52

So Ellie, let's just pick that thread up then, because we had, Peter Hutton on talking about cricket and he talked about... He was formerly at Meta, Facebook, and he ran sport at, at the, you know, that organization. And he, he was also chair of, the America- the World Cup in America, the Cricket World Cup. Now, one thing that he said that remained with me is that he saw the data, the audience data of cricket in America, and that's why he is very, very bullish on... He's a cricket fan anyway, but he really likes the American story and he... That felt like the thread from what Katie's just articulated about London and, you know, The Hundred back to America and successful businesspeople in America. Can you, can you just sort of put some bones on that? 'Cause it feels like that is a thread that's important here, London is part of it, the brand is part of it, but there's also something happening in audience in the States or other places that, uh, you know, we can maybe get into a bit

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 16:51

absolutely. And I think what's really important, and what we feel really strongly about is, you know, not just taking data for, you know, commercial purposes and a take. There has to be value that goes back to those fans and that then creates that long-term and ultimately that growth pa- pathway. you know, what we don't wanna see is some people coming because London Spirit has a new rebrand, and isn't that great? We wanna go and see it. We wanna create the next generation of long-term fans that create that sustained growth and value. I don't believe that the investors are, are here for a quick win. Um, it's here for the, the sort of long term and, and how we can drive that using data both from an insights perspective to make audience-led decisions, be that across brand, be that a- across the experience, be that across broadcast decisions and, and activations that might happen both physically and digitally. but also then, around creating those personalized experiences back to those fans and creating scale, a- across the board.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 17:44

do we know much about them? Again, one question is the, is the Indian diaspora, and that what is being shown up on, you know, in the audience? That actually one of the conversations you have elsewhere separately about not just The 100, but the IPL and various other sort of, you know, cricket audience questions is the game is chasing Indian eyeballs around the world, not just domestically. We talk about the IPL, but also just ev- you know, it's a huge diaspora, and they're, that's the core of the international audience. something you would agree with? So these aren't sort of classic West Coast Californian people. They are diaspora Californian people. Is that right?

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 18:25

Yeah, I think from a global cricket audience, absolutely. where London Spirit are on their journey is really focusing on, closer to home for year one, and we're-- I guess we're kind of calling it year one is the new, the new era of London Spirit in their, in their year one, um, versus when it was centrally owned by, by The Hundred and and so ultimately we want to be to serve a, a global audience, but you can't be all things to all people and risk diluting that message. if London is that core reason for investment in people's interest, which it absolutely is, and the Fortress of Lords, you know, we really need to double down on that and create, experiences both physically and digitally that, that serve that group. The rest kind of follows. If you're only chasing India, it, it kind of-- you can't do that first. You need to really focus on that, that home audience and ultimately the direct revenue streams that are gonna come from attending fans, et cetera, as a priority. Um, and then look at how you can serve those audiences, that can't attend, i-in slightly different ways. But starting to understand the motivators and reasons why they would engage with London Spirit is still equally important. So it's that kind of star power and the players, and therefore what's the type of content that's created that is targeted specifically at those audiences? Um, there's lots of others that have done it incredibly well, like Wimbledon, for example. They have a very clear strategy for their India market, um, in, in previous years, and they've created content themes using particular influencers or, particular, interest points at, at Wimbledon to drive specifically to that market and, and geo-blocking and sort of scale in that area. it shouldn't-- I don't believe it should be the focus point for, for year one. a-and Katie, you, you-- I know there's a lot of things that is going on to, to really focus on that, that home crowd and, and attendance for, for this year in particular.

Katie Maier, MCC 20:14

I think I understand as well that this talks probably the broader strategy for Lords, and I'm sure many other venues and rights holders in recent years, which is to not be, um, distracted by vanity metrics of the number of followers you might have from a particular continent or country because they're particularly engaged in one or two individual players. There's no question if we put, uh, a Sachin Tendulkar video up from years ago or a Virat Kohli moment up, we will get very high engagement for that moment, but it's not deep and long-lasting. So I think the most important thing for us right now is to, as Eddie's highlighting, is to engage a deeper fandom, which we have to start with on our doorstep. But how we then take this in future years to come will be all part of the strategy. It's being built in now that we create genuine London Spirit fans from overseas, and there's ways we can then bring them into the gates of Lords, even if they can't physically come through the gates through those forums. For example, we've, we've launched a, a content platform in the last year or so called Inside Lords, and there'll be other, other opportunities such as that, which means that they can feel really genuinely part of it as opposed to just a sporadic click once every few weeks

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 21:14

So what, the international lens on the MCC? I've got a very-- I've got a Northwest London lens on the MCC, and it's a bloke of my age's, you know, and background's lens. But it's quite an interesting brand. I, you know, in terms of, again, it's-- if you go back, you're looking at it as a sort of quite a patrician, white British brand, which is, is... I'm wondering what that looks like from the Indian marketplace. And I can see a-- 'cause we fall into a trap of saying Gen Z is a, is a sort of monolith, but actually there is, you know, variations and, and huge variation within that category just 'cause of the age, similarity. So what does it-- what do we think it looks like from abroad, the MCC?

Katie Maier, MCC 21:59

It's still, I think, held in, in sort of this slightly mythical high regard by, by a lot of those audiences you just referenced. And it's not, you know, that sounds like we're sort of blowing our own trumpet here, but we see millions of tour visitors coming through. We've, we've had the opportunity to come into the ground outside of matches and visit the MCC Museum, which is here. Obviously, the Ashes urn is there, and do a tour of the ground and see Father Time and Grace Gates and all those brilliant places through the pavilion as well. And we, we have a huge Indian market, unsurprisingly. They are by far the biggest market that wish to come through. but we also see visitors from, from many other countries as well. And, and the general, the general perception that we get through both those physical visits and the digital engagement that we have from, from fans or certainly people in those, those global locations is one of, genuine sort of aspiration to visit. It is a bucket list destination, Lords. And I think sometimes when you're on the inside of it, you're close to it and some of the, the day-to-day humdrum, you, you forget that. I, I'll, I'll never get used to how people react when they walk into the pavilion. Yeah, it's, it's astonishing how people react. There's tears, there's, there's real emotion. And I still think it is felt in that way. Now, of course, we have, we have fun banter relationships with certain, certain, countries and, and, and their citizens, and the Australians especially. We see the Aussies coming around the ground, and there's always a bit of fun there. But I think ultimately it's still held in very high regard. It's seen as kind of a cathedral of cricket and, yeah, it's a hard, it's a hard experience to compare, and hopefully it will carry on being felt like that for a long time to come.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 23:29

And Ellie mentioned Wimbledon there, and again, there's a, there are very few case studies that manage that sort of heritage with being up to date and being modern and new. And is that the aspiration? 'Cause I can see, I absolutely buy into your, your painting of Lord's there. and it's up there in my mind with Wimbledon as somewhere, you know, and, and or we choose to, to talk about. But how do you do that? And how, what are the limits of that, the modernization of Lord's and, and the MCC?

Katie Maier, MCC 24:01

It's that tightrope again, isn't it? It's taking... keeping the, the integrity of all of the heritage, all of those unique assets that we have, which are- we are so privileged to have them, as are Wimbledon, as are many of the other examples you just gave. But, but finding a way to make them accessible in a slightly mysterious way, and I can give you the best example there is the home dressing room. We don't suddenly let out the home dressing room for photo shoots every other day. We're very careful about how it's broadcast and how it's shared with the world, but we find the right moments now to make it that a little bit more accessible. So take, for example, Jimmy Anderson's final day, we, we enabled, um, Nasser and the Sky team to go in there, and there was that famous moment when he walked out the balcony and he downed his pint of Guinness, and the crowd were on the pitch to watch him. Those little steps are all actually strategically planned in in recent years to enable the fan to feel a little bit closer but to retain the mystique. And I think those digital platforms such as Inside Lords that I referenced, but a lot of the things we're doing through our content strategy are all part of that. We- we've doubled down on content just like any decent brand has in recent years, and Wimbledon are such great examples of that and how well it's engaged a much wider fan base. so that we can enable fans who might normally get as close to these elements to feel that they are part of it. I, I think it's also bringing to life some things that go beyond the field. Yeah. And, and a recent campaign we've launched has been actually what's the experience when you come in if you're not a hardcore cricket fan, but you know you wanna go to Lord's? It's Lord's. You wanna come here at least once and feel the experience, but you don't just come here for the cricket. You come here for the greenery. You come here for the social, for the delicious food and drink, for the heritage and the things you might see around the ground. So really dialing up those experiences has been an important part of our, our sort of brand strategy in the last couple of years, so that we genuinely feel that we are engaging a wider audience for the future

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 25:46

Okay. I'm gonna, the-- So I'm looking at this summer, and obviously it's a big summer for women's and got the T20 final at Lords. I didn't realize until I did the sort of a bit of research for this conversation that there's never been a women's test match this, at Lords, which is pretty astonishing, isn't it, in

Katie Maier, MCC 26:09

I know. Yeah. It's 50 years to the year that the first ever women's international took place here that we will host our first ever women's test this summer 2026. I, I think there's probably some reasons behind it, primarily from an ECB point of view that you need, you need an audience. There's nothing worse for a team playing or two teams playing than two playing in a stadium that's massive and there's a smattering of people to watch it. And I think--

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 26:32

that's not what this is about though, is it? That's

Katie Maier, MCC 26:34

Well, no, but so th- I think we feel we're ready. I think they feel we're ready, and certainly when, when the test match was awarded a couple of years ago, that was on the back of us breaking a couple more records in terms of international attendances, and I think they thought, you know what? They're ready, and we felt ready, and we were very willing to host it. as you said, this is, this is a huge summer. This, this would probably be the, the most pivotal year in women's cricket at the ground, arguably in its history. When you look at the fact that we're gonna go into that, that T20 World Cup final on the 5th of July, having had three other matches prior to that point. We're then five days later gonna host the first ever women's test. You then add in the new era of London Spirits, which in its own right has the first ever job for women, which is the general manager role for Heather Knight. There's-- And there's some other grassroot things going on as well. We've got a new state schools final launching in September as well. I've n- we've never had so much women's cricket played here or girls cricket, and the audiences will be unprecedented. You know, tens of thousands of people are gonna come in and watch women play this summer. So yeah, it's been a long time coming. Just delighted it's finally here and I think, I think they will feel genuinely wanted and appreciated and that there's a proper fan base for them, which is the most important thing.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 27:39

When I sort of lapse into my traditional view of the MCC, which you'll be bored to death of me talking about. I wonder how large the, the sort of ultra-conservative group within the membership is, You know, the argument is always it's a small but vocal and there is resistance to movement. You can't, we can't deny, you know, that, that, since '98 there's only 3% of women members. We've never had a test match, a women's test match at Lord's in history. So there is something that is stopping that, and o- obviously you get to prejudice and you get to the core of the, the the membership. Now, the question is: where are we now? And are, is story that you want to tell harder? 'Cause this is more universal than just cricket and MCC. Is it, is the inclusit- inclusivity story, marketing story more difficult to tell now than it would've been five years ago? all of the la- the, the sort of weather around politics suggests that this would be dismissed as woke. The MCC goes woke, but just talk to me about what that looks like, because I think we're at a really interesting phase. And this isn't just about cricket and the MCC, it's about women's sport more generally. I've talked to people at the FA, I've talked to lots of people at football clubs who are now weighing up social inclusion messaging in a way that they wouldn't have done even three years ago. So just talk to me a little bit about that

Katie Maier, MCC 29:13

Yeah, it's a really good question. and I was gonna actually respond about women's sport in general, and you've hit the nail there that this is clearly not exclusive to cricket alone. I, I don't feel that it is harder, if that's sort of the question around this. I, I definitely feel that there's a lot more momentum having been in this role now for sort of just over four years than even four years ago. Cricket especially has been clearly helped by The Hundred. The Hundred has made a huge difference for the women's game as it really set it on a new platform and gave it that, those eyeballs and, and that sense of parity. I think as long as you have a lens that whatever you're putting out there to the fan, back to what are you serving your fan that's of interest to them, that it feels authentic and compelling and of use and of interest to them, then it's hard to challenge that. It's hard to criticize it. You know, the women's game in terms of the quality of the performances has improved a lot. It's not to say they don't want to improve further, of course they do, but it's come a long way in the last few years. So you're, first and foremost, you're putting out good quality cricket on your digital platforms and in the ground itself, but you're also doing things in a really authentic high-quality way. we're still realistic, you know, we still know that, you know, if we put out a Joe Root video, it's gonna have more engagements than potentially one of, one of the women's players. but the, the delta is much less than it used to be, and there is support as well from the men's game. So overall, I don't think that any vocal minority challenges that. A lot of those issues I think sit more around people want to feel that it's fair. They want to feel that they have access to what's in their rights and what they've, what they've, you know, taken their time or paid the price to have. but I don't think at the moment there's a sense here that women's cricket, is taking away from the men's. It's actually just a great additive that's been added to our schedules and to our content.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 30:55

Okay. Right.

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 30:56

think within that as well, it, it goes across the board of any change that happens. People don't love change generally. but I don't think, you know, that the challenge is, you know, how we're-- whether to modernize, it's how to modernize, and it's taking things that, you know, you don't compromise what makes those things special in the first place, be that the product offering, be that technology, anything else that goes alongside it. So if we think about mobile ticketing, for example, feels second nature now, but it's a pretty recent, a feat since sort of 2021 probably, in this country. And actually that first change freaked everyone out and now you wouldn't expect to go somewhere with a digital t- a physical ticket to a number of places. That doesn't mean that the traditional physical aspects that still need to, to go alongside the member experience, for example, don't remain in terms of, you know, books and, and things like that, that, that go alongside. But actually what, what is supported, and what change that modernization without losing what makes things special because that's why people came in the first place, and that's why future audiences want to come as well, because it is so, so special and traditional too.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 32:03

Yeah, no, I, it's a really interesting point, the other bit I al- I sometimes wonder is about the corporate audience. And so, you know, when you've got large global corporations, what their lens on this question is. And so if you said, well, you know, I said at the beginning, you know, as a, as a sort of provocation, there's another marketing route for the MCC. You could go and own the privilege, and you could then become a sort of a different, a point of difference in a marketplace which services audience domestically and, and internationally who want to be in an exclusive club. So, but then you lay in large banks or car companies or big sponsor categories, and their, I wonder what their response to that is. Have we got a lens on that? What do we, where do you think they are in this bit of the conversation?

Katie Maier, MCC 32:52

Yeah. I mean, I, I don't think you can expect to go to market in, in this era in 2026 and exclude, A, women's sport, and B, just general diversity of thought and community engagement and, and the general, the general pillars that many of us are going after now. You know, we've, we've got a principal partner in Barclays. We signed them a year and a half or so ago. They are actively involved in women's sport, Women's Super League, Wimbledon ourselves, and one of the major premises for them coming on board was they, they really love the fact that we're growing in the women's game and also in terms of our community engagement. And I think for a lot of these partners, you know, it's no longer a badging exercise. They don't come in and just wanna have a boundary board and a load of free hospitality for a load of, load of males that we discussed earlier there. But I think they're looking for so much more than that. I know they are. They're looking for deep sort of authentic engagement with our audiences and to do good. And good of the game is one of our pillars. That's something the MCC is very proud of. We do a lot of work for the game, not just in this country and overseas and through the foundation. And that's some of the areas, not just for the girls cricket, but for the boys cricket as well, that our partners really love and really get behind. In the Barclays Knight Stokes Cup that's gonna launch this September, they, they, they didn't take much to persuade to get involved in that because they could see that it was such a brilliantly authentic, initiative that would bring, bring kids into the game. So you, you would definitely close yourself off to partners if you weren't open

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 34:12

Yeah.

Katie Maier, MCC 34:12

to, to diversifying

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 34:14

It's, it's also the... It's actually a bigger signal, you know, if, if an organization like the MCC is, is making, is evolving in this way. I said at the beginning, your tightrope analogy is right in that it's, it's a longer journey, you could argue, but actually it's a more powerful one because of that. And so actually you know, something that, okay, people will take note of because it's really hard miles and I, you know, and I, I of, tip my hat to you 'cause I think, y- you know, I can imagine what the, the conversations are like, but actually a really interesting case study, I think. It's one of the most interesting case studies you've got in sport

Katie Maier, MCC 34:50

Yeah, and it, it comes back to Ali's point a bit too, I think, around we're not suddenly turning off ways of doing things as we did them before. I think that's really important. You know, the digital passes is a classic example, which anyone will know well through our app, but we've launched this year for the first time digital membership passes. So the coveted little red book is now accessible digitally, and you can walk

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 35:09

this is Bolshevism, Katie.

Katie Maier, MCC 35:11

into the

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 35:12

can't, y- this

Katie Maier, MCC 35:12

ground. Absolutely. But we haven't got rid of the books. The books still exist. The books still exist. whether they'll exist forever is to be seen, but I think it's about bringing people on a journey and making sure they feel comfortable with that. We're not turning the tap off. A classic example for me has been the popularity of some of our online members' meetings, which you'd have thought four or five years ago... Clearly COVID was a good catalyst for a lot of people getting online, but you'd have thought, "Well, who would wanna do that in our membership?" They find them so useful. We get hundreds dialing in, I think that's generally once a month. We've got another one next week. Really useful informal forum for an hour where our chairman and CEO sit down and chat to the members, and various directors answer questions throughout that, and really good engagement. Now, if we'd put those always physically on, which we still do a bit, we probably wouldn't get the same take-up. So it's about, it's about providing a choice, I think, and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to segment our products and segment for our audiences so that everyone finds what's right for them and, and generally, generally we get it right. Not always, but generally we try to get it right.

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 36:11

This isn't all just happening now. clearly Barclays bought into the partnership off the basis of proven returns, from that partnership those audiences, the diversity, a, a lot of the things that Katie to. it's-- While there's a lot of the, huge milestones happening this year, there's a lot that has been going on in, in the sort of previous years to build up to that, and therefore it's not this big bang of everything suddenly happening and there's all this change. And, it's been demonstrated to bring the partners on board that, that the MCC has, which is testament to the work that Katie and the team have, have been doing over the years to, to achieve that.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 36:45

J- Eddie, I was gonna ask you, what, if you, there's a day where you wake up, you think, "Okay, I've..." Look, it's a content question. And, and, and what gets the most engagement? because, uh, Katie mentioned there about, you know, a Joe Root video or a Virat Kohli video. But can you just give us a sort of idea of what the absolute guarantees of a response are in that world? When you push content out that you think, "Okay, well, I know that's a banger." And then there's others that you think, "Okay, there is, there are more difficult messaging," or whatever it is. But just d- what's that world look like?

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 37:19

I think it's preparing for the unexpected. So, as much as you'd love to plan out every single moment that's gonna happen, the viral moments that, that go across the world are things that you can't plan for as much as you'd like. So little interactions potentially between players and, and fans, something that might happen with a trophy lift. Uh, I mean, I think the, the fox running round, uh, the ground at Lords did, did pretty well last year as well. Um, but things like that just seem-- you know, bring that authenticity through. Um, equally there are really fun viral moments that also happen through brand partnerships that are-- appear authentic, but maybe aren't. So thinking about the Liverpool Google Pixel, selfie, for example, and, and those sorts of things that are now you see them at the Olympics, all of the podium pictures being taken on phones, et cetera. And actually it then breeds into these really nice, ongoing activations that people still love, even if it's less authentic than it maybe seemed. but all comes from humanizing players, humanizing fans, and, and even behind the scenes coaching staff and, and things like that. So I think that access and, and bringing, you know, giving those, stars both on the pitch and sort of backroom staff, their, space to be their own stars and, and sort of support that message, both themselves on their own platforms, but also, um, via, uh, sort of the official rights holder platforms as well.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 38:46

you mentioned the Liverpool, the selfie thing and, and it's interesting how the tropes come and go, isn't it? And, and how you sort of think, "Oh, okay, we'll jump on that one." And you can be late, and you can look late, can't you? And it looks a bit opportunistic, whereas... And it's, it's a really such a fast-moving thing, and you need someone who knows the culture intimately to, you know, someone like me would make stupid and obvious mistakes. You know, I'd go in and, and, you know, jump on the r- on the thing too late. But so you need some lens on that in terms of, okay, you need to be savvy enough to know what's, what's good and what isn't. The other bit that I was gonna ask you about is, is it, it's sort of there's cricket and then there's sort of other adjacencies, and you're seeing those getting worked more. I mean, it might get into, I don't know, food or the audience, or you might get to sort of other stuff that, like, sometimes I don't-- And sometimes the question is how far you can get away cricket. Do you know what I'm getting at? So in terms of the, once you're starting to comms plan stuff, you might start to say, "Yeah, this is a good idea. We can have Joe Root baking or whatever." And then after a while you think, "Why is he baking?"

Katie Maier, MCC 39:56

I

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 39:56

I know. They just fall, they just fall off me.

Katie Maier, MCC 39:58

quite like that idea. No, definitely. And I touched on, like, these sort of content pillars, as we call them. We've got six that we're focusing on for the, for the big campaign this season. Cricket's one of them, and then there's five others, and one of those is food and beverage, and others is heritage, and socials, and, and bits and bobs. But the food and beverage one, you know, for example, right now our main work with our PR agency is not actually around the cricket. It's around get us in with some really great food and beverage influencers and content creators, and get the right editors and writers coming towards the season to see what we do here, 'cause we do, you know, I will unequivocally say we have, I think, the best food and drink in cricket. and the players' menu is one of the most followed elements on our social posts on a match day and so forth. So yeah, we're, we're often thinking laterally. We're not just thinking in that singular way because again, I think that's, that's how you engage people who might just want to dip their toe in coming here for the first time. Might have a, a, an interest in the big moments, but want to think, what else is in that day for me? Why would I stump up for a ticket, and a train ticket, and all the rest of it? W- w- what am I gonna get from the broader experience? And actually, when you look at traditional cricket days, a test day, it's a long day. There's a lot to it. You don't necessarily want to sit and watch seven, eight hours cricket. Um, hopefully you get that much and there's not too much rain. but all those other elements are, are really important to your day. We, we did some research actually as part of this year's campaign around what makes it special, and a big thing that came through was this whole meeting up with people, and not just friends from the past, but new people, that you event- you, you inevitably sitting in the stands, you, you socialize with those around you. And before you know it, you've found someone you wish you know, or an interesting comment. You might see someone you always meet up with once a year when you come to Lord's, and you reunite behind the Compton Edgeworth with an ice cream. Those magical little stories and anecdotes are actually what make these experiences special, and the same probably for people who go to Wimbledon and other major events. So yeah, we're not scared of leaning into that. We're, we're gonna be dialing that up even more

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 41:44

I quite like the, you know, Wimbledon crowd talking to each other. I like that sort of whatever it was, secret microphone. Again, that was, know, that's been going five years probably, is it? I mean, uh, that, again, that's why, "Oh, that's really

Katie Maier, MCC 41:54

Very good

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 41:55

and innovative." And I'm sure that's been, you know, it's, it's, uh, I saw that being in various iterations. Things iterate over time. You mentioned the creator thing and where and who can add the world. obviously you get the, you know, the players themselves. They are limited in terms of they've gotta be really good at cricket, so they've, you know, they're busy and they've gotta do that bit of it. But they're telling a different story. They're telling a performance story presumably. And then you've got these other stories that, that appeal to different people. You mentioned there about segments. Who are, are the people who are, you're, you're looking at beyond the ones that I would know, obviously?

Katie Maier, MCC 42:33

Yeah. Well, I mean, there, there's various segments. I actually might let Ellie talk to them 'cause you know them as well as anyone, don't you? But from our traditionalists right through to our sort of big one-off events, but one-off eventers, those who come for the big moments. Perhaps I'll, I'll hand to you, Ellie, 'cause it's your, your sweet spot, I would say.

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 42:44

Yeah. So we kind of think about how closely engaged someone might be, with, with London Spirit, for example, and, and the MCC. And you've got your cricket traditionalist, which I imagine is who you had in mind, um, Richard, when you're thinking about your audience. but then as we get further away, you've got sort of the, uh, sports, sort of big eventers that will sit sort of somewhere in the middle where they like to go to sports events, but they're not necessarily a diehard cricket fan. So starting to think about what, um, product they might be interested in. Is that more of a T20 audience rather than a test match, for example? And then as we get further away, we're thinking more about that culture side. Um, so is that that lifestyle brand that kind of comes with being seen at a test match and experiencing the amazing food and hospitality? Um, is that people who are visiting London and want to do something iconic like go to Lord's for a, a cricket match? starting to think about how closely and deeply engaged that person might be all the way up to less engaged, but how we're still attracting them. And I think it's really important that, you know, heritage is, is fundamental, but it's doesn't unlock growth. And so we need to be really comfortable in leaning into all of those other audiences in order to sustainably grow, grow the game, which ultimately will be rewarding for those traditionalists because hopefully they all want the game to succeed and, and to see more of it. and so it's this sort of, yeah, guess, circle or self-fulfilling prophecy that we need to think about, where if we don't open it to more audiences, the game can't grow, and therefore the investment doesn't come that makes, you know, the national team better and us win the Ashes hopefully, and, and things like that. So it's, um, it's thinking about it in that life cycle, aspect. But

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 44:27

Is it, that, that

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 44:29

that top of the funnel is really exciting opportunity that is massively untapped

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 44:33

Yeah, I think I am a trad- when it comes to cricket, I mean, I'm, I-- it's not all about me. People say that. It's ac- it is actually about me. But there's a, the traditionalist and the big eventer. I mean, we have fun on this podcast and with newsletters, and we sort of take the mick out of big eventers cause you sort of think, oh, I'm a, you know, they don't like sport. I, you sort of build up a cliché of they really like fireworks and balloons, essentially, big eventers. And they d- they're there, and they get bored. one of the, i- in the run into London 2012 and then out the other side, and it's grown over time. They've become this absolute central bit of the conversation in terms of marketing sport to them, and I wonder what the implications of that are on the product. So was watching, say, for example, Champions League, men's Champions League final, and they've got a music event in there, and no football fan ever wants a music event at a football match. But it's not there for them, it's for the big eventers, presumably. So I'm just wondering that tension is where, you know, you can have fun with that in terms of winding each side up. So, but within the MCC, that traditionalist-big eventer gap is

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 45:35

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 45:35

considering. You're back to the tightrope again, Katie.

Katie Maier, MCC 45:38

Absolutely. You go, Alicia, and I'll come in. Got me thunder storm here, by the way. Hopefully you can't hear this

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 45:43

Yeah, I don't know. I, it's au- authentic, you know, authentic

Katie Maier, MCC 45:46

Sounds sort of loads go- loads going on

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 45:47

I think within that sort of middle group, as we might call it, you've got your sports enthusiast eventers, so like I would probably put myself in that, where I will watch everything and anything. I'm with just watching live sport. I'm not necessarily a cricket fan, but I'm going to the, the match on Saturday, and I'm super excited for the day there. Um, but then you do have your potential more culture and arts, theater, music, like going to live events. So even within that big event group, you've got the sporty end and the not so sporty. So again, you can start to It's not big jumps between each of these steps. It's the gradual, I guess, further away from traditional, we might wanna call them, uh, as it goes, and again, not trying to be all things for all people. So if we're thinking about the next couple of years, the importance of really being, okay, let's broaden out from our traditional core group. Who are those next people? People who like to go and watch sport, who actively will choose to spend their money and time doing that, that's who we're going after. We're not going straight up for, you know, the arts and theater goers straight away. We're, we're gonna gradually get to those, um, which makes that gap feel less, overwhelming, um, and jarring. So more sport and probably less balloons, um, more sport

Katie Maier, MCC 47:04

I was just gonna add to that as well in terms of when you get to the event and how the event feels, there's expectations from certain fan bases for certain, certain match formats to have all the balloons and the pizzazz. And again, we're sort of very aware though of, of managing it and segmenting it in different ways. So when you come to the test match this week, I'm afraid there is still the rule that there's no fancy dress, so no flags and no horns. And the PA will only be so loud, and we want to

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 47:26

Quite

Katie Maier, MCC 47:26

celebrate the Lord's hum. In fact, we're gonna do a big content piece this week around the Lord's hum, 'cause that's what makes it special.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 47:31

Yeah

Katie Maier, MCC 47:32

equally, come into a London Spirit match this summer, we want it to feel as biased to London Spirit as it could possibly feel. We've never had a team of our own in our history at Lord's, and we want it to feel Look, we want it to feel London Spirit. So extra noise when our, when our team comes out, extra noise for our fours and sixes and, and all that razzmatazz. So I think it's, again, it's just that tightrope, balancing the right product for the right audience and then, and then how you communicate it to them

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 47:54

It's interesting, the sort of each word is a trap almost 'cause, uh, you know, I, I am a traditional cricket fan. Uh, but we've talked about traditionalists, and that comes with a sort of certain connotation of, again, that we've, discussed earlier. So it's, it's, it's interesting the, the, the way in which those groups then need to get broken up further and further and further, and how that, how that works. There's a, um... I remember there was a, there was a stat, It was to do with the women's one-day World Cup final, more coffee being sold than beer. Is that, uh, at Lord's? And I can't remember who I got that off. it was Zara from W- who is now at WSL. And that got into the, what booze does, where booze is in the, in the sort of marketing plan these days, and what it does to atmosphere. And we've got, there's, there's a conversation going on in rugby about, you know, Twickenham is a sort of pub where a ru- a game of rugby breaks out. And then you've got football where it's a so- again, it's different. You've got the Ryder Cup where people are drunk but posh, and therefore that's a different type of sense of entitlement that, that comes with it, and atmosphere is different. Talk to me about this 'cause again, I f- I find it interesting. I think it's sort of underplayed in the whole scheme of things. And Test matches, and I love Test matches, but you are sitting there a long time and, you know, if you want to, you can drink a lot. You don't have to, obviously. But just talk to me about how that is shifting, what you, how you view that as the, as the central thing. 'Cause one of the conversations about the women's cricket was if they're not selling beer, then what's the, what's the economy gonna look like?

Katie Maier, MCC 49:27

Yeah, no, and I think actually it talks a little bit to your point earlier around is it harder in some ways? I wouldn't say it's harder, but there was a time where I think drink, alcoholic drink, would feature quite strongly in sporting event campaigns. You know, I came from working at the-- in racing for a few years, and inevitably racing has quite a strong reputation around that as well, and champagne and, and all the rest of it. So, I think what's great now is actually our drinks partners are very keen to push their zero products. So we're-- what we do now is we, we try and approach it in a balanced way. We're not gonna suddenly turn off the idea that you don't-- might not wanna come to the cricket and buy a lovely bottle of champagne and enjoy yourself and, and a couple of beers or whatever it is. But we're also dialing up the 0%. And actually, I'm on the cusp of announcing any minute now our partnership with Diageo and Guinness returning to the ground, and the main focus they wanna focus on is how do we make Guinness a summer drink and the naught percent variety especially, and that will be the main crux of, of that campaign. so luckily there is great options out there. There's a huge amount of choice that we feel we can, we can balance the two. We're, we're generally pretty lucky here. I think we don't have major issues with, you know, drunken behavior, you know, ejections from the ground. They're very, very low numbers.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 50:36

Champagne

Katie Maier, MCC 50:36

think post...

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 50:37

on the outfield.

Katie Maier, MCC 50:37

Well, that is, that is a genuine issue. The champagne corks on the outfield is a bit of fun, but I'm not sure the, the deep fielders love it. I think post-COVID there was a little bit of that, you know, get out of jail attitude, and I think a few grounds had a bit of a tricky summer the first year of the 100 and then learnt very quickly, right, let's manage it. And, and an example of that actually as I, as I think about it, is we now have non-alcohol stands, and that's pretty standard now across most of our match days, and we make sure we've got non-alcohol. And sometimes we see they're undersold, so we might open up a bit more to, to anyone who wants to sit in them. And otherwise it might be that we need to expand it further. So it has changed the dynamic a bit. There's still those who enjoy a drink, but generally we find they're pretty sensible when they're at Lord's.

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 51:16

I think it ties into where the audiences are going and the demands of modern culture now anyway, like

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 51:20

Yeah,

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 51:21

the focus on health and lifestyle. You know, it's not taboo to drink non-alcoholic beers at the pub anymore, which you might have got, uh, a bit of heckling back in the day, and the variety and the taste and everything, it's, it's improved so much whereby expect that and will come-- know, that's what they're looking for, when they're attending events. So I, yeah, I think it, it's reflection of the market demand as much as, as anything.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 51:45

what proportion, it's quite interesting, I don't know the answer, the proportion of beer that is now sold that is 0%. 'Cause I drink it, you know, heaven forbid. I, I now am a, a consumer. I'm like a, I'm like a dinosaur that's evolving. But you can see, I, you know, that y- it's definitely a thing. And sometimes I wonder what it's about. You know, what is that about? Is that them chasing demand? Are they creating demand? Is it just a new product that they're really pushing very hard? And is it sort of more, Wow, that is a really, that, it's thunder overlords

Katie Maier, MCC 52:15

is really overlord. So, if there's a big

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 52:17

signal. It's a metaphor.

Katie Maier, MCC 52:19

bang in a minute and, and I fuzz out you'll know where I've gone. Apologies, it's, it's loud. I, I think I'll, I'll, I'll take that question on now for a second. I think it's been, it's been demand led, no question for us. There's been a, there's been a clear demand for it and, and our s- suppliers and our, our food and beverage team have responded. and what we're also seeing, I think, is a little bit of both. You'll pe- you'll see people coming and saying, "Actually, it's a long day, so I'm, I'm not teetotal. I wanna have a couple of drinks today, but I'm not gonna start with one. I'm gonna have a break for an hour or two and have a non-alcohol beer and move on to something different, and then I might come back and have a glass of something alcoholic later in the day." So it ki- kind of falls back to what we were saying earlier, that choice point, isn't it? That you have the choice. I'm the same. You know, I'll try and have a non-alcoholic drink on some evenings of the week so that I can balance maybe when I want to treat myself on another day. And giving the, the consumer the choice is, is great, and they're definitely buying into it

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 53:09

Listen, I've really... We could go on forever, but l- l- I've really enjoyed the conversation and, I'm really pleased and, and good luck. It's a great summer ahead and It's really lovely to, to talk to you both. So Katie and Ellie, thanks a lot for your time

Katie Maier, MCC 53:20

Thanks so much for having us

Ellie Roach, InCrowd 53:21

Thank you